titrated updates translates to lost interest

2

Comments

  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1823036:date=Jan 9 2011, 09:49 PM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Jan 9 2011, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My argument, which is quantifiable if anyone has the data to look at (someone probably does), is this: a throng of new players arrive for each new patch release to see how the game is progressing. Due to the frequency of patch releases and the relatively small number of visible/detectable-to-laymen changes and improvements in each patch people learn not to take new patch releases seriously and consequentially drop NS2 off their radar. This is a choice made by the developers which causes an atmosphere of "forget about this, I'll hibernate on this for a few months, maybe then something worthwhile will be released." One metric for this which I notice is the decrease in forum discussion on each new patch, though as another user noted the real work is being done at "getsatisfaction.com" however I'd bet the activity level there is correspondingly decreasing. A more all-encompassing approach to patch releases could retain more players by making patches bigger events, but the devs not taking this rout, and I believe (and the facts may support) that this leads to steadily decreasing player retention/interest.

    Most posts have ignored this argument and answered a completely different question that each user seems to have invented himself (My rambling articulation is partly to blame). At least there's some discussion but few have addressed my argument, or the implications of it - that much credibility will be lost between now and the time the game is released; fewer people will care, thinking "been there done that" and just ignore updates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Your argument <i>would</i> be quantifiable with statistics if it were correct, but you don't know that without the statistics.

    UWE does not have a big internal testing team. They need frequent feedback to know they're on the right track. If they spend a long time on a huge release and make a big deal about it in advance, and then it comes out and there's still a huge problem they didn't detect internally that ruins it for everybody, their credibility takes a big hit. See what happened with the alpha release, and the first big patch after the long break.

    What matters now is that they get the game up and running as quickly as they can, and that means frequent patches. There will be plenty of opportunities for big PR releases down the line. Most importantly will be when it hits the Steam store. It's natural that beta testers aren't quite as excited about the game weeks/months after they got in, but that doesn't mean they won't come back when it's done.
  • alephaleph Join Date: 2007-10-12 Member: 62620Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1823039:date=Jan 9 2011, 09:59 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 9 2011, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->asdfasdfdfa<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I always felt bad for ppl who use thesauruses lol. I'm not talking about the state of the game but how its progress is being handled.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    Eventually NS2 will become playable. When that happens servers will stay populated. No one wants to empty three clips into a skulk and have them not register due to poor hit reg.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1823042:date=Jan 10 2011, 04:29 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Jan 10 2011, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always felt bad for ppl who use thesauruses lol. I'm not talking about the state of the game but how its progress is being handled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    progress is going to be handled incrementally regardless of the patch release schedule, simply because that's how game development works. You signed up for an inside look at how a game progresses from Alpha to Lot Check and that's what you're getting. Maybe it would make some people happier if there was a big 1-a-month or bi-monthly update, but I would wager that most pre-purchasers would actually prefer what they are currently getting, which is more or less real-time updates as big ticket fixes get checked in.

    But again, whether pre-purchasers are happy or not is not relevant to anything, since UW already has their money.
  • alephaleph Join Date: 2007-10-12 Member: 62620Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1823045:date=Jan 9 2011, 10:40 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 9 2011, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But again, whether pre-purchasers are happy or not is not relevant to anything, since UW already has their money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



    pretty much


    LOL


    <!--quoteo(post=1823044:date=Jan 9 2011, 10:34 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 9 2011, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eventually NS2 will become playable. When that happens servers will stay populated. No one wants to empty three clips into a skulk and have them not register due to poor hit reg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    my gripe/worry is whether anyone will give a shlt enough by the time it is playable, and since that's probably not till 2012, it's a legitimate question.
  • jaminjamin Join Date: 2008-01-03 Member: 63332Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1823045:date=Jan 10 2011, 03:40 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 10 2011, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But again, whether pre-purchasers are happy or not is not relevant to anything, since UW already has their money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Unless they try to sell another game down the line....
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    are you suggesting that if NS2 is an awesome game, diehards that bought it pre-Alpha will not buy another UW game because patch releases weren't scheduled for maximum impact?
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1823026:date=Jan 10 2011, 10:01 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 10 2011, 10:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->excellent use of vocabulary in the thread title, well played OP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    heh yeah I thought so too.

    I'm actually of the opposite opinion to the OP: large and slow updates don't maintain interest, small and quick updates do. People forget about the game and/or lose interest if you take too long to patch - every large and slow patch will require some kind of PR push; whereas if you patch often, there's something new for a player to try out all the time, and a reason for them to come back often.
    The issue you're talking about is different though: It's that there's currently a giant hurdle, and it's the performance and the latency. Once that's better and it's more playable, people will keep playing NS2 for much longer after a patch, regardless of the size or frequency of patches. But if you want more people to play more often, then small quick updates are the way to go, for reasons I've already discussed.
    Ideally, they should do one slow and large patch to fix the performance and latency issues, then after that, do small and quick updates. Unfortunately it's not as simple as that as the performance/latency optimisation isn't like "do this one large task and it's fixed", and they still need testers meanwhile, especially for the other parts of the game.

    Oh, I guess another part is the sheer unbalancedness (is that a word?) of the game. Where you have OP aliens, <b>or</b> OP flamethrowers. There is no game variety. Games can be summarised as such: Marines must get flamethrowers or lose.
    Much of that unbalance stems from many features not yet being in the game to balance that and provide options, that has to be understood. But regardless, if you want to maintain interest, maybe it's a good idea to keep two balance sheets: current and future. The 'current' balance sheet will just ensure nothing's OP and people can relatively enjoy the game <b>as it is now</b>, it will update quickly (but in terms of the size of changes, slowly), especially with new features, maybe even eventually restoring the previous numbers as appropriate; eventually coming to match the 'future' balance sheet (which will change slightly as new issues come up). That's how I would approach it anyway.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1823046:date=Jan 9 2011, 10:44 PM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Jan 9 2011, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my gripe/worry is whether anyone will give a shlt enough by the time it is playable, and since that's probably not till 2012, it's a legitimate question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    When a good game is released everyone forgets about how long it took to develop.
  • xposed-xposed- Join Date: 2007-09-23 Member: 62412Members, Constellation
    Another kid crying about "baawww I don't have the full release and I pre-ordered so I'm going to bash UWE".

    Get. Over. Yourself.

    You pre-ordered a copy of the game for WHEN IT COMES OUT, don't be an ignorant little clump of fecal matter. You did not enter into a contract promising the game by a certain date and the devs are working marvelously.

    I'm sick of you whingers.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    @Sentry: That's true. Or else they're living in the past. Unless of course they're making a comparison with another just-released game. "This game took too long to come out, now its graphics look ###### compared to Game X". That's not a good scenario, but I doubt it'll come to that.

    @xposed-: too much emotion, bro. This is the internet. Also, personal attacks. Not very classy. OP is just expressing his own thoughts - the only problem is that he doesn't realise it's been expressed a hundred times before already, and been discussed to death. People are just replying by rote, now.
  • shivshiv Join Date: 2010-04-11 Member: 71341Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1823052:date=Jan 9 2011, 08:27 PM:name=xposed-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xposed- @ Jan 9 2011, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another kid crying about "baawww I don't have the full release and I pre-ordered so I'm going to bash UWE".

    Get. Over. Yourself.

    You pre-ordered a copy of the game for WHEN IT COMES OUT, don't be an ignorant little clump of fecal matter. You did not enter into a contract promising the game by a certain date and the devs are working marvelously.

    I'm sick of you whingers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    /agree
  • alephaleph Join Date: 2007-10-12 Member: 62620Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1823048:date=Jan 9 2011, 10:50 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 9 2011, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are you suggesting that if NS2 is an awesome game, diehards that bought it pre-Alpha will not buy another UW game because patch releases weren't scheduled for maximum impact?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    people will literally have moved on with their lives so much that they don't have time for PC gaming
    as it's been 2 years, it's really not that far-fetched.

    "if they make a good game no one will care how long it took to get out"

    if it takes too long no one will care PERIOD because it will have fallen off their radar.
  • TacotaTacota Join Date: 2009-10-12 Member: 69027Members
    edited January 2011
    I think most people who complain are whiny children who need to log out... and they need to learn to read when they make purchases, and read up more on certain terms and definitions so they don't get their feelings hurt time and time again.
  • alephaleph Join Date: 2007-10-12 Member: 62620Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->lol..<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> xposed-, Tacota, <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->replies like yours are even more banal than the thread topics they're usually replying to, of which mine isn't one<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    Is the number of patch downloads decreasing?
    Are the combined hours of playtime decreasing?
    It certainly "feels" that way. If they are (someone can dig up the stats and make a pretty graph on this) then it's worthwhile, and valid, to question why.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    i doubt that playtime decreases. around the beta release (before the hotfix) you could not find any full servers 2-3 days after the patch. Now you can find at least one every day until the next time (might just be me beeing lucky with my timezone)
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1823092:date=Jan 10 2011, 09:17 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Jan 10 2011, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->people will literally have moved on with their lives so much that they don't have time for PC gaming
    as it's been 2 years, it's really not that far-fetched.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree with this to an extend. Two years is quite a bit of time when you're twentysomething and figuring out your studies, personal life and all that. That's where most NS community activists are right now. I think most people will come back, but the further the release goes, the longer the community rebuilding takes and the more new and fresh community members are needed to get the community running.

    Obviously the rebuilding can also be a good thing, but I think it puts a lot of extra pressure to the early releases. If the old folks aren't there to start up community activity, the game really needs to be in good enough shape to inspire new people to do that.

    Edit: Oh and I've got absolutely no idea whether the two years is realistic in any scope in any direction. I think it's roughly one and a half years since the preorders opened, so I guess it's a decent milestone marker at this point though.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1823039:date=Jan 10 2011, 02:59 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 10 2011, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, you can't complain about people misunderstanding your "argument" if you type like a 12 year old that just discovered the magical intelligence-boosting properties of a thesaurus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It took me a while to remember what titration was, or rather to work it out because the only time I ever used the word was in chemistry class at college where you drop solutions through a big tube to get very precise measurements.
  • ben1099ben1099 Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75282Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1822999:date=Jan 10 2011, 07:48 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 10 2011, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think anybody who pre-ordered this game this early on, before it's even on the Steam store, has permanently lost interest because of the performance issues. They're just waiting until the game is properly playable before they come back. I'm still extremely pumped about NS2 and I'm following its development very closely - I always come back for every patch to see how it plays, and if it's still too rough then I'll just quit and wait for the next patch. No harm done as long as they keep making progress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think people HAVE lost interest because of performance issues. I have posted something regarding this to unknown worlds.

    Problem
    1) Spark engine WAS made for fast break down and re-engineering which is a GOOD thing
    1a) However its total lack of optimization has caused productive game play to FAIL literally

    What happens?
    Problem (1a) is met by the LACK of VOLUME of input.
    Problem (1) is met by the small developement team which means ; relatively the fast re-engineering is not full ultilized

    - If I did a poll. I believe with a 90% confidence level that 2 weeks IS that longest players are willing to wait for a new patch

    Unknown worlds should have two mode of patch release
    1) The gameplay releases (IE BIG Major gameplay/balance/optimization probably naming them B159 B160 and so on like now) The gest of this releases are LEAP frog patches
    2) Secondly they should include inbetween rapid releases such naming them appropriately such as B159a then B159b - where the focus is on minor issues probably that could be fixed in double quick time.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1823136:date=Jan 10 2011, 11:57 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 10 2011, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It took me a while to remember what titration was, or rather to work it out because the only time I ever used the word was in chemistry class at college where you drop solutions through a big tube to get very precise measurements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's the right analogy. When you titrate, near the titration point you have to let it <b>drip slowly</b>, for the maximum precision.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2011
    This is such a non-argument, and reasons for have been posted many times before.

    They are a small indie developer and resource constraints mean producing something of this quality are going to take longer than usual.

    They are also fortunate enough to be deciding the direction of every element, and the game is already very fun to play - every update addresses something and it is fun to be part of. Yes the performance is frustrating, but they know this and are working very hard.

    By starting this thread, what exactly do you think is going to change? You are better off being positive and supporting the community, or joining in with the debates covering balance and concepts in the aim of helping the developers out.

    As for the numbers of patches, it was Christmas. Everyone deserves time with the family. I am sure things will pick up.
  • meb2meb2 Join Date: 2010-07-25 Member: 72824Members
    if it's any consolation, I pooptalk ns2 constantly for being a poop game still, yet I still check their twitter/progress page almost EVERY DAY waiting for this game to get better

    you should know there's like a small army out there doing the same. NS ruled and NS2 has potential to fill the void it left. the day this game is fun the servers will reflect it - just be patient and hope UWE has a good 2011 run (that isn't a run to bankruptcy)
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1823155:date=Jan 10 2011, 06:57 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jan 10 2011, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if it's any consolation, I pooptalk ns2 constantly for being a poop game still, yet I still check their twitter/progress page almost EVERY DAY waiting for this game to get better

    you should know there's like a small army out there doing the same. NS ruled and NS2 has potential to fill the void it left. the day this game is fun the servers will reflect it - just be patient and hope UWE has a good 2011 run (that isn't a run to bankruptcy)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Roughly this. I'm sort of tired of delays, unplayable FPS, lags and I'm still not sure at all whether I like the whole direction of NS2 that much. And yet I keep coming back more than occassionally.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    I would much like to see if the "Faceoff" game mode expressed in the create game UI is going to be a faster paced, much more solo based line of play similar to combat. There's nothing like quick fire DM.
  • zeepzeep Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3367Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1822987:date=Jan 9 2011, 11:56 PM:name=AtlantisThief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AtlantisThief @ Jan 9 2011, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh, i am only checking the site from time to time to see if a new patches appeared, that could have fixed the performance issue so i can finally play a bit more. Yet i always was made sad :'(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    <!--quoteo(post=1822997:date=Jan 10 2011, 12:40 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Jan 10 2011, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure you just described what literally thousands of pre-orderers feel<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Same here.
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    after seeing the progress page, patch should come out this week or weekend for sure. Unless more tasks added.
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1823146:date=Jan 10 2011, 12:42 PM:name=ben1099)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ben1099 @ Jan 10 2011, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- If I did a poll. I believe with a 90% confidence level that 2 weeks IS that longest players are willing to wait for a new patch<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    lol
    Take a poll, then. Anyone who makes up statistics and think it credits their argument is ridiculous.


    I don't really play much of NS2 in its current state. I check the twitter/progress page daily.

    When the game comes out, I can't say if I'll have time to play it, if I'll still like FPS games, if I'll have lost use of my mouse-wielding arm, or gotten killed in a car accident. NONE of that has any relevance to how I feel about the game. Why worry about things you can't control? Pre-ordering the special edition was not a gamble, nor was it a waste. I liked NS1, was happy I was able to show my appreciation financially (never got into Constellation), and I get to play a cool NS2 game when it gets further along.

    IMO if you're here complaining about the progress, you care a lot more about the game than you want to admit. If you care about the game, please show positive support and give comments that the devs can actually use. If you don't care about the game anymore, gtfo and get on with your life <3
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1823147:date=Jan 10 2011, 05:51 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 10 2011, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the right analogy. When you titrate, near the titration point you have to let it <b>drip slowly</b>, for the maximum precision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I usually just let it run until I felt like turning it off due to being unable to see the colour changes in the beaker anyway.
  • RebelRebel Join Date: 2003-04-10 Member: 15371Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Playtester
    Idea: as to why 159 and 160 hasn't had much noise associated to it:
    Xmas, people have had other **** to deal with, see what happens post 161 / 162, if server pop drops of quickly after that, then I will agree with you ;)
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1823092:date=Jan 10 2011, 04:17 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Jan 10 2011, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->people will literally have moved on with their lives so much that they don't have time for PC gaming
    as it's been 2 years, it's really not that far-fetched.

    "if they make a good game no one will care how long it took to get out"

    if it takes too long no one will care PERIOD because it will have fallen off their radar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is completely irrelevant to your argument about frequent updates. If they can't finish NS2 before the death of PC gaming (lol) then I guess they'll have to find new jobs afterwards, but it has nothing to do with how often they release patches. Like I said before, more frequent patches actually make for a faster development cycle because it helps them get their work thoroughly tested as they go.
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