AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
ok, here is why i think multicom is a good idea:
1) you can easely explore the commander view without too much responsability, that way newer player can learn to command faster. Because in NS1 you can play many many games and actually never see the commander interface.
2) You can quickly go into the CC to build for example a outpost, repair something etc, that the com didn't see and help out that way.
3) On large games (that we don't have yet), guiding 16 marines with one com can probably be a big challenge, here it is nice to have multiple coms
There will always be griefers and people that want to ruin the game. The can do that in many ways. I think the idea to be able to lock a CC is a good start, as is the ability to vote out commanders.
<!--quoteo(post=1821496:date=Jan 4 2011, 08:30 PM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Jan 4 2011, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok, here is why i think multicom is a good idea:
1) you can easely explore the commander view without too much responsability, that way newer player can learn to command faster. Because in NS1 you can play many many games and actually never see the commander interface. <b>So now we need to focus on the newbies? It seemed like the devs were only focusing on the pros until now. BTW, you need to focus on the middleground players. Every game requires some practice. A player wanting to learn how to comm should not interfere with anyone else's gameplay. That's what dedicated servers and bots are for.</b>
2) You can quickly go into the CC to build for example a outpost, repair something etc, that the com didn't see and help out that way. <b>This was never a problem in NS1. Trust me, a single comm is more than enough to handle everything. If too many things were going on for a single comm to handle, than that meant that the teamplay wasn't there, and that in itself is what kept the game balanced. </b>
3) On large games (that we don't have yet), guiding 16 marines with one com can probably be a big challenge, here it is nice to have multiple coms <b>I commed most of the time in NS1 and this was never a problem. No excuse.</b>
There will always be griefers and people that want to ruin the game. The can do that in many ways. I think the idea to be able to lock a CC is a good start, as is the ability to vote out commanders. <b>This was already present in NS1, you're not introducing anything new.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1821486:date=Jan 4 2011, 02:59 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 4 2011, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence the use of MACs.
If the AI commander assumes that players won't build anything and ensures MACs are present to build everything, and simply instructs the players to guard them as appropriate, it should be fine.
You could also tie it into map control, if a room has lots of players in it and no enemies, the commander can try to build stuff in it. That way whichever rooms the players take will be built up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even talking about MACs. A comm's job is to direct players in the battle, telling them waypoints to go to, where the aliens should be vulnerable, etc. He makes the call when to let an expansion go down as a sacrifice and to attack on the other team's flank. An AI would blindly tell players "GO DEEFEND" even if it's a lost battle.
Comm needs to have a human thinking pattern, or a human comm on the other team will obliterate it.
This is a rather difficult issue to address at this time. Making a tutorial or bot now would be pointless, the game is missing many planned features and in beta so there's no good strategy worth putting resources in to teach yet.
One feature that i think should be a must is to vote for a commander before the game starts (Look at how empires does it, the player is teleported into the commander seat as soon as the game starts), this will reduce the chance of a clueless player entering the chair and mucking up the critical start of the game.
Oh and this is another big point, it should be clear that commander is a big deal, and information should actually be provided somewhere outside the chair/hive, like a tech tree detailing cost/time/requirements/effects of every upgrade. It would be really cool if players could also view a timeline of techs so they can learn from more skilled comms as well.
This is why I'd never be a Commander in a game. People are ###### and instead of helping you out, teaching you what you should do as a commander, they make fun of you, make rude comments and leave the match.
I really hope this isn't what the community is going to be like once the game comes out.
<!--quoteo(post=1821487:date=Jan 4 2011, 03:01 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 4 2011, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think MACS should also be way more durable. 3 Skulk bites to kill something that costs 50 resources? They can easily do hit n run tactics. It should at least have upgrades to double, or triple it's HP / Armor, or give it some kinda defense, like electrical shielding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Need to mention it is 50 command station <b>energy</b>, not res. And electrical shielding sounds kinda cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1821528:date=Jan 4 2011, 11:30 PM:name=sicbud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sicbud @ Jan 4 2011, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why I'd never be a Commander in a game. People are ###### and instead of helping you out, teaching you what you should do as a commander, they make fun of you, make rude comments and leave the match.
I really hope this isn't what the community is going to be like once the game comes out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, it's Natural Selection, of course, it's like Counter-Strike.
Also, if you're a bad commander, no one else can have fun. Do you understand? You're ruining the game for others. It shouldn't have to be like that, but it comes with the FPS / RTS gameplay. By being a bad Commander, people can't get a proper base, the right weapons, ect. I didn't have any trouble myself since I play alot of RTS, and I get that some people don't play RTS, so they don't get it. So don't be Commander. You can learn on your own time, through the many tutorials available on the Internet, or in a empty server. During a game with several people is NOT the time you should be learning.
NS is a Team effort, and a NS Team is only as strong as it's Commander, and if you have a weak Commander, the entire game falls apart. It's also hard with the Aliens constantly harassing all your different bases and he's just sitting there confused. Incredibly frustrating experience if you've been there.
Just stick the FPS portion if you're not used to the RTS. You can such at the FPS portion and it's fine, there are others. But if you take the only Comm chair and suck at it, well you've just doomed your Team.
Or you could always help them become better commanders. Do you understand?
Help them in-game, give them places they could do research to become better commanders? Or did you forget that everyone has to start somewhere and was once a noob commander?
<!--quoteo(post=1821549:date=Jan 5 2011, 12:39 AM:name=sicbud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sicbud @ Jan 5 2011, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or you could always help them become better commanders. Do you understand?
Help them in-game, give them places they could do research to become better commanders? Or did you forget that everyone has to start somewhere and was once a noob commander?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but that's the thing, they can't enjoy the game because of you. Don't be so selfish, learn on your own time.
Multi commanders will help more people learn the role because in NS1 you had to have a good commander in the chair and for the whole game. Now you can have a good commander in for the whole game but noobs can jump in and learn a bit, then they won't be noobs for long and they might be able to be the good comm! Yay!
Greifing will be an issue though, maybe a vote system for the team to forbid someone using CCs? lol
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
well if they are clearly new then guide them through the round, you might lose, but so what its just a game (a damn fun game..)
of course there is always the eject commander button if the commander is being a troll :) - hmm i wonder with all of these new physics, whether it will actually eject them into the air so they land like a rag doll....
<!--quoteo(post=1821554:date=Jan 4 2011, 11:44 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 4 2011, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole point of the game is to help each other, to co-operate. Without that your RTS/FPS game falls apart.
It seems like players are the fault here. They're too impatient, rude, self-centered, self-superior and arrogant.
Help others out. Don't cry like a baby about them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone has never played NS before. Lol! The NS community is arguably comprised of society's biggest ######.
BTW, the point of video games is to have fun, not help each other out. That's what work is for.
<!--quoteo(post=1821368:date=Jan 3 2011, 11:29 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 3 2011, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or just go down the Command & Conquer interface style, it's easy, but yeah, I love Age of Empire's interface also. The current isabit meh.
Also just had this game with this guy "Insufficient funds", I think he was ###### with people, he was using a mic, but his voice was REALLY nasally, like purposefully, you know? And he kept going "OH OH, freaking great", like some kinda YouTube video of trolls.
I also got in the other Command Controller to help setup west base, which was under attack, killed the skulk, got in the CC, started placing turrets, used MAC's to repair the power which was down , suddenly come under attack from 3 Skulks, so my efforts go mostly wasted, guy starts yelling at me and telling me HE'S going to tell people not to play with me. Lmao, what a crock.
Seriously, it's a unique aspect for NS, but at the same time, ever so frustrating when you have an idiot commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well lets see, You joined the server after we dropped the second CC and all you did was complain about how every commander sucks and you're so much better while me, Alpha, Wolf, and few others we're trying to defend base while you were just ###### around. Then you start telling me I am a bad commander - And you threatened to recycle everything making you a bit of a troll.
Let me emphasize this again: <b>he was threatening to recycle the team because he wasn't happy with my job as a commander because hes so much better he wants to ruin the game for everyone else</b>
Second - way to make fun of the way my voice sounds, sorry I can't help my nasally voice.
Third - you're a troll. People can tell by your posts. I've been playing with a good group of alpha/beta players for a while. I don't care what your opinion of me is but when the main base is under attack and you're just screwing around at the west base second CC while our main IP is going down and youre complaining about bad commanders... maybe you're a bad player?
Lastly we went on to win that game. Thanks.
It'll be a good day when commander eject is in game. And at that point we can see who people prefer to com if I ever have the displeasure of playing a pickup game with you.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
@Mkilbride: Just relax, perform some Zen meditation and count to 10,000,000,000,000,000 or something. Not everyone is going to agree with everyone and there is NOT a single right way to do it all. I've played with Insufficient funds several times, he's an aggressive Marine comm, tends to not build anything at main and rushes for the second comm chair. Well, that's a risky tactic (assuming the aliens poke their heads into Rine's start and chew on stuff), so if it fails things can look bad. If it works, Marines get an advantage. It's just a tactic. No, I'm not taking sides...I don't like pissing contests. Just offering an alternative perspective.
<!--QuoteBegin-PoNeH+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PoNeH)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, the point of video games is to have fun, not help each other out. That's what work is for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is a self-defeating statement when pertaining to NS. If you don't cooperate with your team, you typically loose.
<!--QuoteBegin-schkorpio+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->well if they are clearly new then guide them through the round, you might lose, but so what its just a game (a damn fun game..)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well said sir! This is especially important right now, because there are a lot of "New to NS" players joining the Beta, or at the very least people that haven't been following every single detail with its development.
<!--quoteo(post=1821580:date=Jan 4 2011, 09:09 PM:name=Rulgrok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Jan 4 2011, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well lets see, You joined the server after we dropped the second CC and all you did was complain about how every commander sucks and you're so much better while me, Alpha, Wolf, and few others we're trying to defend base while you were just ###### around. Then you start telling me I am a bad commander - And you threatened to recycle everything making you a bit of a troll.
Let me emphasize this again: <b>he was threatening to recycle the team because he wasn't happy with my job as a commander because hes so much better he wants to ruin the game for everyone else</b>
Second - way to make fun of the way my voice sounds, sorry I can't help my nasally voice.
Third - you're a troll. People can tell by your posts. I've been playing with a good group of alpha/beta players for a while. I don't care what your opinion of me is but when the main base is under attack and you're just screwing around at the west base second CC while our main IP is going down and youre complaining about bad commanders... maybe you're a bad player?
Lastly we went on to win that game. Thanks.
It'll be a good day when commander eject is in game. And at that point we can see who people prefer to com if I ever have the displeasure of playing a pickup game with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I would be, if that was true. I never threatened anything about "recycling" the Team, however that is done. The plain fact is you were sitting around doing NOTHING. I wasn't the only one complaining either, when I JOINED the game, people were already ###### about you. I left right after he started complaining I was helping the Team, because I can't stand people who are clearly doing nothing complaining about something doing nothing, who is the only one doing anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1821603:date=Jan 5 2011, 12:58 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 5 2011, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I would be, if that was true. I never threatened anything about "recycling" the Team, however that is done. The plain fact is you were sitting around doing NOTHING. I wasn't the only one complaining either, when I JOINED the game, people were already ###### about you. I left right after he started complaining I was helping the Team, because I can't stand people who are clearly doing nothing complaining about something doing nothing, who is the only one doing anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i wasn't in that game, but thanks for playing anyway.
Not to start a flame war but I was doing more than sitting around doing nothing. I was setting up turrets in base, upgrading to flamethrowers where I had used all our carbon aside from dropping an extractor right outside of base. I had kept the 2nd cc up at west to generate macs to keep in base to weld stuff we had a nonstop skulk rush on our main ip and by that point lerks were gassing the hell out of base. You and few others kept running out of base on your own and trying to attack the hive instead of stay inside and guard it. A few minutes after you left we had finished upgrade to fts, got our armor upgrades, and proceeded to finish clearing out that map. I then stayed on that server and commed a few more matches. Its not as if we can push out of the base unless we have the resources to. You hopped in the com chair and laid a turret in west that got killed and then got my macs killed. Then went on your tirade and left. See, what you don't seem to understand... was I was playing on that server with a group of 4 friends and 3 of us were on that team, the other was the alien comm. We knew well what we were doing and all you seem to do is whine because people don't fit your standards of being a commander. Please just play on your own server from now on so you can control everything to be the way you want it to be kk? It's not only about having a good commander but also about good teamwork. I knew very well what I was doing and I may have been barking out orders saying "HEY GET BACK TO BASE OUR MAIN IP IS UNDER ATTACK OH OH GREAT WHERE ARE YOU GUYS GOING?" when our main base is under attack and we're about to lose because you can't stand still and guard it. This game is about synergy and if your dependent on your commander you should work with him. I was on the voice comm nonstop trying to give out help and orders and you guys barely communicated.
Also you're ridiculously stupid if you think the aliens don't need a relatively competent commander to win...
I was having a nice game as marine commander on rockdown, we had some problems with defending our 2 bases (low player count). Then "Niqqer" comes, joins marines, enters comm chair and sells every base we have.
I wouldn't have anything against having subcommanders and main commander where main commander can kick/ban specific people from alternate comm chairs. Main commander can be votekicked by his team. That doesn't undo damage done in my case but is a start. There should also be 30 s delay during which recycling can be cancelled by the main commander (it has to show up in his UI in the first place too). Or every recycle might require confirmation by all commanders.
Well being a new player to NS series, jumping into the command chair was a little scary but I did as we had no commander and with quite a bit of RTS experience, by the end of the game I mostly go the hang of it and most of my team was fairly supportive. This gave me hope that the community would helpful and willing to give a new comm a chance every now and then.
However several posters in this thread seem to be pretty hostile to have someone new in the game using the commander. This feels a lot like L4D pub games where if you got the tank and were new the "experienced" players expected you to pass it on to them and not try to use it yourself and learn how to play.
How are we supposed to expect to get a nice population of commanders in this game if we don't let new comms try it out every now and then. Also it's a little worrying that people worry so much about winning and losing right now...it's a beta. We're mostly here to test it out, not worry about wins and losses. Sure it's fun to win but this is actually the best time to let new comms have a hand at it and try the game out when the games are mostly small and affect a minimum amount of people.
I'd rather lose a bunch of games now, where the game is relatively small and let a bunch of people play commander to get a feel for it so that when the game does launch we aren't short on commanders. Lately I've had this problem a lot, join a server and nobody jumps into commander. This in turn makes me feel like SOMEONE had better do it else it will be an easy, easy victory for the other team. And a lot of these times I'd rather play FPS but since the CC is treated like some sacred altar that only the most holy of the NS community may enter, it scares a lot of people off.
I know I rambled, but I think that while yes bad comms suck to have, it's important to remember that this beta and that we should encourage others to learn. If a bad comm gets in, just accept that this might be a loss and help them to not be so terrible. Then next game ask (or ensure) that you have a different comm. Usually I rarely see people comm several games in a row.
<!--quoteo(post=1821506:date=Jan 4 2011, 08:56 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jan 4 2011, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not even talking about MACs. A comm's job is to direct players in the battle, telling them waypoints to go to, where the aliens should be vulnerable, etc. He makes the call when to let an expansion go down as a sacrifice and to attack on the other team's flank. An AI would blindly tell players "GO DEEFEND" even if it's a lost battle.
Comm needs to have a human thinking pattern, or a human comm on the other team will obliterate it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you could largely remove the need for that by just having alerts broadcast to all players.
Say two or more aliens enter a base, the game should alert all players that an alien attack is happening at that base, mark it on the map until the aliens are defeated, and report any structure losses there.
Faced with that, most players should be able to figure out to defend areas themselves, and should be able to gauge the effective health of a base.
The commander is certainly a way to get information to players, but you can often write much better automated alerts.
Don't underestimate the power of machines in a controlled environment, such as a computer game. They are excellent at conditional thinking, and much of commanding can be boiled down to 'if condition is met, perform action'.
So you're basically saying I should ignore that at any time 2nd or 3rd(?) comm can get in other comm chair, sell whole base, leave and I should be happy? That I should ignore it in beta stage that is supposed to be about finding such things?
I'm simply writing this down because you can go from server to server selling everything or doing more stupid things. Does TF2 have one big "LET'S LOSE!" button available to everyone?
Just to toot my own horn some, I'm pretty sure <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111646" target="_blank">this</a> would alleviate all the problems with multiple commanders while preserving most of the benefits.
Summary:
<!--quoteo(post=1810287:date=Nov 25 2010, 09:43 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 25 2010, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It may sound a bit complex but it basically boils down to 'if you have money, you get to keep it for as long as you command, if you build something, other players can't mess with it, and the more you comm, the more resources the game gives you to use in comm mode' which should be simple to understand and appreciated by players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would basicaly turn multiple commanders into a standard team-based RTS. In an RTS when you have teams you have units which are on your side, but which are controlled by other players. Multiple commanders would function like that, with each commander controlling their own stuff, but working together just as marine players ostensibly work together on the ground.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1821640:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well being a new player to NS series, jumping into the command chair was a little scary but I did as we had no commander and with quite a bit of RTS experience, by the end of the game I mostly go the hang of it and most of my team was fairly supportive. This gave me hope that the community would helpful and willing to give a new comm a chance every now and then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I remember one of those games. I didn't think you did all that bad. For a first timer, you picked it up pretty quick.
<!--quoteo(post=1821640:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How are we supposed to expect to get a nice population of commanders in this game if we don't let new comms try it out every now and then. Also it's a little worrying that people worry so much about winning and losing right now...it's a beta. We're mostly here to test it out, not worry about wins and losses. Sure it's fun to win but this is actually the best time to let new comms have a hand at it and try the game out when the games are mostly small and affect a minimum amount of people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><b>QFT!</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1821640:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather play FPS but since the CC is treated like some sacred altar that only the most holy of the NS community may enter, it scares a lot of people off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->hahaha! Well said sir, well said.
The thing to understand there are a lot of NS1 players are coming back (or already back) and they're bringing their old "Elitist ######head" attitude with them, because that's how it used to be. I've run into this many many times in NS2. *shrugs*
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't underestimate the power of machines in a controlled environment, such as a computer game. They are excellent at conditional thinking, and much of commanding can be boiled down to 'if condition is met, perform action'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While this is true from a simplistic and conceptual sense, I disagree with the pragmatic application of it in the context of NS. When looking at it from a basic heuristics standpoint you are correct, but actually applying this removes the human intuition out of it which is where we get new and interesting outcomes from (for the most part, current Beta excluded). Not too mention the adaptability of a person in the comm chair verses the linear if/else style actions of an "AI". Yes, I'm aware of Neural Nets, Finite State Machines, Genetic Algorithms, etc. These only go so far. Although, I will admit figuring out how to train a Neural Net to be a NS Commander would be an interesting problem. :)
Hell, from a more basic stand-point; do you really want that much more crap running on the server(s)? I don't.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And a lot of these times I'd rather play FPS but since the CC is treated like some sacred altar that only the most holy of the NS community may enter, it scares a lot of people off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't that a sign of huge success ? I mean that a bunch of pixels and laggy network informations transform somehow in emotions. I think the being commander should scare people, because it should be important in the game. The game should create this illusion that things matter although they are childish amusement.
Complaining about the commander is also part of the game to me, it's like complaining about politicians; our best pastime.
Comments
1) you can easely explore the commander view without too much responsability, that way newer player can learn to command faster. Because in NS1 you can play many many games and actually never see the commander interface.
2) You can quickly go into the CC to build for example a outpost, repair something etc, that the com didn't see and help out that way.
3) On large games (that we don't have yet), guiding 16 marines with one com can probably be a big challenge, here it is nice to have multiple coms
There will always be griefers and people that want to ruin the game. The can do that in many ways. I think the idea to be able to lock a CC is a good start, as is the ability to vote out commanders.
1) you can easely explore the commander view without too much responsability, that way newer player can learn to command faster. Because in NS1 you can play many many games and actually never see the commander interface.
<b>So now we need to focus on the newbies? It seemed like the devs were only focusing on the pros until now. BTW, you need to focus on the middleground players. Every game requires some practice. A player wanting to learn how to comm should not interfere with anyone else's gameplay. That's what dedicated servers and bots are for.</b>
2) You can quickly go into the CC to build for example a outpost, repair something etc, that the com didn't see and help out that way.
<b>This was never a problem in NS1. Trust me, a single comm is more than enough to handle everything. If too many things were going on for a single comm to handle, than that meant that the teamplay wasn't there, and that in itself is what kept the game balanced. </b>
3) On large games (that we don't have yet), guiding 16 marines with one com can probably be a big challenge, here it is nice to have multiple coms
<b>I commed most of the time in NS1 and this was never a problem. No excuse.</b>
There will always be griefers and people that want to ruin the game. The can do that in many ways. I think the idea to be able to lock a CC is a good start, as is the ability to vote out commanders.
<b>This was already present in NS1, you're not introducing anything new.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the AI commander assumes that players won't build anything and ensures MACs are present to build everything, and simply instructs the players to guard them as appropriate, it should be fine.
You could also tie it into map control, if a room has lots of players in it and no enemies, the commander can try to build stuff in it. That way whichever rooms the players take will be built up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even talking about MACs. A comm's job is to direct players in the battle, telling them waypoints to go to, where the aliens should be vulnerable, etc. He makes the call when to let an expansion go down as a sacrifice and to attack on the other team's flank. An AI would blindly tell players "GO DEEFEND" even if it's a lost battle.
Comm needs to have a human thinking pattern, or a human comm on the other team will obliterate it.
One feature that i think should be a must is to vote for a commander before the game starts (Look at how empires does it, the player is teleported into the commander seat as soon as the game starts), this will reduce the chance of a clueless player entering the chair and mucking up the critical start of the game.
Oh and this is another big point, it should be clear that commander is a big deal, and information should actually be provided somewhere outside the chair/hive, like a tech tree detailing cost/time/requirements/effects of every upgrade. It would be really cool if players could also view a timeline of techs so they can learn from more skilled comms as well.
I really hope this isn't what the community is going to be like once the game comes out.
Need to mention it is 50 command station <b>energy</b>, not res. And electrical shielding sounds kinda cool.
I really hope this isn't what the community is going to be like once the game comes out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, it's Natural Selection, of course, it's like Counter-Strike.
Also, if you're a bad commander, no one else can have fun. Do you understand? You're ruining the game for others. It shouldn't have to be like that, but it comes with the FPS / RTS gameplay. By being a bad Commander, people can't get a proper base, the right weapons, ect. I didn't have any trouble myself since I play alot of RTS, and I get that some people don't play RTS, so they don't get it. So don't be Commander. You can learn on your own time, through the many tutorials available on the Internet, or in a empty server. During a game with several people is NOT the time you should be learning.
NS is a Team effort, and a NS Team is only as strong as it's Commander, and if you have a weak Commander, the entire game falls apart. It's also hard with the Aliens constantly harassing all your different bases and he's just sitting there confused. Incredibly frustrating experience if you've been there.
Just stick the FPS portion if you're not used to the RTS. You can such at the FPS portion and it's fine, there are others. But if you take the only Comm chair and suck at it, well you've just doomed your Team.
Help them in-game, give them places they could do research to become better commanders? Or did you forget that everyone has to start somewhere and was once a noob commander?
Help them in-game, give them places they could do research to become better commanders? Or did you forget that everyone has to start somewhere and was once a noob commander?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but that's the thing, they can't enjoy the game because of you. Don't be so selfish, learn on your own time.
It seems like players are the fault here. They're too impatient, rude, self-centered, self-superior and arrogant.
Help others out. Don't cry like a baby about them.
Greifing will be an issue though, maybe a vote system for the team to forbid someone using CCs? lol
of course there is always the eject commander button if the commander is being a troll :) - hmm i wonder with all of these new physics, whether it will actually eject them into the air so they land like a rag doll....
It seems like players are the fault here. They're too impatient, rude, self-centered, self-superior and arrogant.
Help others out. Don't cry like a baby about them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone has never played NS before. Lol! The NS community is arguably comprised of society's biggest ######.
BTW, the point of video games is to have fun, not help each other out. That's what work is for.
Also just had this game with this guy "Insufficient funds", I think he was ###### with people, he was using a mic, but his voice was REALLY nasally, like purposefully, you know? And he kept going "OH OH, freaking great", like some kinda YouTube video of trolls.
I also got in the other Command Controller to help setup west base, which was under attack, killed the skulk, got in the CC, started placing turrets, used MAC's to repair the power which was down , suddenly come under attack from 3 Skulks, so my efforts go mostly wasted, guy starts yelling at me and telling me HE'S going to tell people not to play with me. Lmao, what a crock.
Seriously, it's a unique aspect for NS, but at the same time, ever so frustrating when you have an idiot commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well lets see,
You joined the server after we dropped the second CC and all you did was complain about how every commander sucks and you're so much better while me, Alpha, Wolf, and few others we're trying to defend base while you were just ###### around. Then you start telling me I am a bad commander - And you threatened to recycle everything making you a bit of a troll.
Let me emphasize this again: <b>he was threatening to recycle the team because he wasn't happy with my job as a commander because hes so much better he wants to ruin the game for everyone else</b>
Second - way to make fun of the way my voice sounds, sorry I can't help my nasally voice.
Third - you're a troll. People can tell by your posts. I've been playing with a good group of alpha/beta players for a while. I don't care what your opinion of me is but when the main base is under attack and you're just screwing around at the west base second CC while our main IP is going down and youre complaining about bad commanders... maybe you're a bad player?
Lastly we went on to win that game. Thanks.
It'll be a good day when commander eject is in game. And at that point we can see who people prefer to com if I ever have the displeasure of playing a pickup game with you.
<!--QuoteBegin-PoNeH+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PoNeH)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, the point of video games is to have fun, not help each other out. That's what work is for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is a self-defeating statement when pertaining to NS. If you don't cooperate with your team, you typically loose.
<!--QuoteBegin-schkorpio+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->well if they are clearly new then guide them through the round, you might lose, but so what its just a game (a damn fun game..)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well said sir! This is especially important right now, because there are a lot of "New to NS" players joining the Beta, or at the very least people that haven't been following every single detail with its development.
You joined the server after we dropped the second CC and all you did was complain about how every commander sucks and you're so much better while me, Alpha, Wolf, and few others we're trying to defend base while you were just ###### around. Then you start telling me I am a bad commander - And you threatened to recycle everything making you a bit of a troll.
Let me emphasize this again: <b>he was threatening to recycle the team because he wasn't happy with my job as a commander because hes so much better he wants to ruin the game for everyone else</b>
Second - way to make fun of the way my voice sounds, sorry I can't help my nasally voice.
Third - you're a troll. People can tell by your posts. I've been playing with a good group of alpha/beta players for a while. I don't care what your opinion of me is but when the main base is under attack and you're just screwing around at the west base second CC while our main IP is going down and youre complaining about bad commanders... maybe you're a bad player?
Lastly we went on to win that game. Thanks.
It'll be a good day when commander eject is in game. And at that point we can see who people prefer to com if I ever have the displeasure of playing a pickup game with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mkilbride status:
[ ]not told
[ ]told
[x]goddamn told
[ ]not told
[ ]told
[x]goddamn told<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I would be, if that was true. I never threatened anything about "recycling" the Team, however that is done. The plain fact is you were sitting around doing NOTHING. I wasn't the only one complaining either, when I JOINED the game, people were already ###### about you. I left right after he started complaining I was helping the Team, because I can't stand people who are clearly doing nothing complaining about something doing nothing, who is the only one doing anything.
i wasn't in that game, but thanks for playing anyway.
Also you're ridiculously stupid if you think the aliens don't need a relatively competent commander to win...
I wouldn't have anything against having subcommanders and main commander where main commander can kick/ban specific people from alternate comm chairs. Main commander can be votekicked by his team. That doesn't undo damage done in my case but is a start. There should also be 30 s delay during which recycling can be cancelled by the main commander (it has to show up in his UI in the first place too). Or every recycle might require confirmation by all commanders.
However several posters in this thread seem to be pretty hostile to have someone new in the game using the commander. This feels a lot like L4D pub games where if you got the tank and were new the "experienced" players expected you to pass it on to them and not try to use it yourself and learn how to play.
How are we supposed to expect to get a nice population of commanders in this game if we don't let new comms try it out every now and then. Also it's a little worrying that people worry so much about winning and losing right now...it's a beta. We're mostly here to test it out, not worry about wins and losses. Sure it's fun to win but this is actually the best time to let new comms have a hand at it and try the game out when the games are mostly small and affect a minimum amount of people.
I'd rather lose a bunch of games now, where the game is relatively small and let a bunch of people play commander to get a feel for it so that when the game does launch we aren't short on commanders. Lately I've had this problem a lot, join a server and nobody jumps into commander. This in turn makes me feel like SOMEONE had better do it else it will be an easy, easy victory for the other team. And a lot of these times I'd rather play FPS but since the CC is treated like some sacred altar that only the most holy of the NS community may enter, it scares a lot of people off.
I know I rambled, but I think that while yes bad comms suck to have, it's important to remember that this beta and that we should encourage others to learn. If a bad comm gets in, just accept that this might be a loss and help them to not be so terrible. Then next game ask (or ensure) that you have a different comm. Usually I rarely see people comm several games in a row.
Comm needs to have a human thinking pattern, or a human comm on the other team will obliterate it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you could largely remove the need for that by just having alerts broadcast to all players.
Say two or more aliens enter a base, the game should alert all players that an alien attack is happening at that base, mark it on the map until the aliens are defeated, and report any structure losses there.
Faced with that, most players should be able to figure out to defend areas themselves, and should be able to gauge the effective health of a base.
The commander is certainly a way to get information to players, but you can often write much better automated alerts.
Don't underestimate the power of machines in a controlled environment, such as a computer game. They are excellent at conditional thinking, and much of commanding can be boiled down to 'if condition is met, perform action'.
I'm simply writing this down because you can go from server to server selling everything or doing more stupid things. Does TF2 have one big "LET'S LOSE!" button available to everyone?
Summary:
<!--quoteo(post=1810287:date=Nov 25 2010, 09:43 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 25 2010, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It may sound a bit complex but it basically boils down to 'if you have money, you get to keep it for as long as you command, if you build something, other players can't mess with it, and the more you comm, the more resources the game gives you to use in comm mode' which should be simple to understand and appreciated by players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would basicaly turn multiple commanders into a standard team-based RTS. In an RTS when you have teams you have units which are on your side, but which are controlled by other players. Multiple commanders would function like that, with each commander controlling their own stuff, but working together just as marine players ostensibly work together on the ground.
<!--quoteo(post=1821640:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How are we supposed to expect to get a nice population of commanders in this game if we don't let new comms try it out every now and then. Also it's a little worrying that people worry so much about winning and losing right now...it's a beta. We're mostly here to test it out, not worry about wins and losses. Sure it's fun to win but this is actually the best time to let new comms have a hand at it and try the game out when the games are mostly small and affect a minimum amount of people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><b>QFT!</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1821640:date=Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Jan 5 2011, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather play FPS but since the CC is treated like some sacred altar that only the most holy of the NS community may enter, it scares a lot of people off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->hahaha! Well said sir, well said.
The thing to understand there are a lot of NS1 players are coming back (or already back) and they're bringing their old "Elitist ######head" attitude with them, because that's how it used to be. I've run into this many many times in NS2. *shrugs*
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't underestimate the power of machines in a controlled environment, such as a computer game. They are excellent at conditional thinking, and much of commanding can be boiled down to 'if condition is met, perform action'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While this is true from a simplistic and conceptual sense, I disagree with the pragmatic application of it in the context of NS. When looking at it from a basic heuristics standpoint you are correct, but actually applying this removes the human intuition out of it which is where we get new and interesting outcomes from (for the most part, current Beta excluded). Not too mention the adaptability of a person in the comm chair verses the linear if/else style actions of an "AI". Yes, I'm aware of Neural Nets, Finite State Machines, Genetic Algorithms, etc. These only go so far. Although, I will admit figuring out how to train a Neural Net to be a NS Commander would be an interesting problem. :)
Hell, from a more basic stand-point; do you really want that much more crap running on the server(s)? I don't.
Isn't that a sign of huge success ? I mean that a bunch of pixels and laggy network informations transform somehow in emotions. I think the being commander should scare people, because it should be important in the game. The game should create this illusion that things matter although they are childish amusement.
Complaining about the commander is also part of the game to me, it's like complaining about politicians; our best pastime.