So will this always be the excuse for losing?
FrontlinerDelta
Join Date: 2010-12-24 Member: 75924Members
Join Date: 2010-12-24 Member: 75924Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Whine, whine, whine</div>So on Rockdown it was 7v7 fairly back and forth, marines making lots of concentrated attacks on our hives pushing fairly deep (destroyed the same hive 5 times I believe at the beginning) but we always just barely managed to hold on.
Then the marines adapted a defensive posture and we became more aggressive forgoing extra defenses like craigs, whips, and hydras. So this continues for awhile when I come around a corner and almost instatnly die. There was an entire corridor filled with sentries. and armories and marines. It was clear what they were doing and realizing we had next to no defense, I proceeded to morph to gorge and placed about 10 - 12 hydras in the next hallway. So when the marines tried to round the corner they got killed one by one.
Then the chat box exploded "OMG, HYDRA SPAM!!!" "TROLL GORGE" "TRYING TO LAG THE SERVER!!!111!!" etc.
Umm, from the patch notes I've read and from watching NS2HDs videos, hydras do NOT lag the server nearly as much. I didn't suffer any lag, least none that hadn't been there since the beginning and most of my team reported none either. Would seem the marines were saying that as an excuse for poor performance or losing or whatever.
I've played marine and seen hydra spam and it is a little unbalanced but that's not what this thread is about. Does anyone else feel marines will overblow the whole hydra thing?
As a comparison I jumped in game where the marines had flamers and a gorge spammed our hive with hydras. Nobody complained about any "hydra lag" then.
EDIT: Just to put this up here, I am not in anyway defending true hydra spam. And I think something needs to be done to prevent it, game breaking bug or not. Same with sentries.
Then the marines adapted a defensive posture and we became more aggressive forgoing extra defenses like craigs, whips, and hydras. So this continues for awhile when I come around a corner and almost instatnly die. There was an entire corridor filled with sentries. and armories and marines. It was clear what they were doing and realizing we had next to no defense, I proceeded to morph to gorge and placed about 10 - 12 hydras in the next hallway. So when the marines tried to round the corner they got killed one by one.
Then the chat box exploded "OMG, HYDRA SPAM!!!" "TROLL GORGE" "TRYING TO LAG THE SERVER!!!111!!" etc.
Umm, from the patch notes I've read and from watching NS2HDs videos, hydras do NOT lag the server nearly as much. I didn't suffer any lag, least none that hadn't been there since the beginning and most of my team reported none either. Would seem the marines were saying that as an excuse for poor performance or losing or whatever.
I've played marine and seen hydra spam and it is a little unbalanced but that's not what this thread is about. Does anyone else feel marines will overblow the whole hydra thing?
As a comparison I jumped in game where the marines had flamers and a gorge spammed our hive with hydras. Nobody complained about any "hydra lag" then.
EDIT: Just to put this up here, I am not in anyway defending true hydra spam. And I think something needs to be done to prevent it, game breaking bug or not. Same with sentries.
Comments
Hydra lag is still on the list.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalSelection2HD#p/u/15/Q57wuYAOgsA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalSelecti.../15/Q57wuYAOgsA</a>
I'm not saying Hydra spam won't slow the server, but when it's only 10 or so, it shouldn't be as bad it's made out to be.
So, 7 active hydras from one player: cost*2^0 + cost*2^1 + cost*2^2 + cost*2^3 + cost*2^4 + cost*2^5 + cost*2^6
= cost*127
= cost*(-1+2^n)
Video recording software has an effect of making fps look smoother then they are.
So, 7 active hydras from one player: cost*2^0 + cost*2^1 + cost*2^2 + cost*2^3 + cost*2^4 + cost*2^5 + cost*2^6
= cost*127
= cost*(-1+2^n)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or each hydra cost a fraction of the last... infinite hydra for finite moneez! D:
If 10-12 in a single hallway is spam, how would this be classified?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv5rF0kni-Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv5rF0kni-Y</a>
That's the only reason I did it too, I normally never play Gorge and 10 or so doesn't seem overboard to me. If I had used all 500 plasma or something, than yeah, that would be spam and I'm sure it would be laggy.
Not saying it doesn't lag at all, but people overreact to it.
And for the record I think both Hydras and sentries need to be a little more controlled as right now both are way too easily spammed.
Grenade launchers or flame throwers...problem solved
I don't think the issue is just hydras either, but since the hydras are the most commonly spammed they are taking all the blame. The most likely reason certain structures would be causing lag is if they are iterating through unnecessary checks on players. An example would be if for every hydra it is checking if it has a line of sight to each player instead of first checking if the player is within a certain radius of fire, then checking if it has line of sight for the few players that might actually be close enough to it.
<b>Not saying this is a bug or how it behaves</b> (would be kind of silly if this is the issue) but if it did you can see where a line of sight check on each player will be more costly than initially doing a distance check (less computationally heavy) and only following with a line of sight check if the player is close enough. For one hydra it might not matter but when you have tons of them it really starts adding up, so in problems like these it's all about using simple heuristics for optimization.
I don't think the issue is just hydras either, but since the hydras are the most commonly spammed they are taking all the blame. The most likely reason certain structures would be causing lag is if they are iterating through unnecessary checks on players. An example would be if for every hydra it is checking if it has a line of sight to each player instead of first checking if the player is within a certain radius of fire, then checking if it has line of sight for the few players that might actually be close enough to it.
<b>Not saying this is a bug or how it behaves</b> (would be kind of silly if this is the issue) but if it did you can see where a line of sight check on each player will be more costly than initially doing a distance check (less computationally heavy) and only following with a line of sight check if the player is close enough. For one hydra it might not matter but when you have tons of them it really starts adding up, so in problems like these it's all about using simple heuristics for optimization.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what annoyed me the most. The marines had at least 8 sentries in that hallway alone, let alone the old ones in Node Reservers an their base. When I put the hydras down nobody complained until they saw them either. Trying to be battle medic I got killed and just respawned as skulk and went on killing. Another gorge came by and started adding to it which did affect the server finally but after killing the sentry guns the problem became less noticeable.
So I think you're probably right and that it's just since hydras are more easily spammed. Maybe a way to counter the spam is not let hydras grow themselves?
Maybe a gorge should have to use their heal spray on it to get it to grow, since marines have to build theirs and you aren't sacrificing a drifter to let it auto-grow.
I would add an ability for the Gorge to be able to pick up thier own Hydras and cart them about the place.
In NS1 I remember single OC's being quiet a deterant , and about 4 provided decent cover for a entire Hive room vs none heavies and if there wasnt a Siege cannon in range.
Hydras on the other hand are more a nuisance to a Marine than any threat, unless there in numbers. ( like the Marines SG, 1 SG is skulk bait ... 2 will chase off a skulk and 3 will keep skulks at bay...if the skulk is forced to remain in SG sight long enough for the spin up ).
I think that is the root of the problem.
I build two sentries back to back...I'm done
I expect the marines to pick up the rest in that room.
I have to build 6-8 hydras for the same coverage. Because although they are so cool looking...they are very piddly things easily trimmed away.
But they have to fix the problem nonetheless, what if later they want to introduce more structures.
2. 10+ hydra cause NOTICEABLE lag to any server.
3. Given the current state of the beta, any player that drops 10+ anywhere in the map (knowing full well the lag they will create), is griefing the server.
<!--quoteo(post=1820659:date=Dec 31 2010, 11:53 PM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Dec 31 2010, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I proceeded to morph to gorge and placed about 10 - 12 hydras in the next hallway. So when the marines tried to round the corner they got killed one by one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop <b>spamming</b> hydra, and don't be surprised if marines suddenly become very pissed off when they see hydra spam. Only a <b>noob</b> (and i see new players that just got ns2 everytime i play) or a <b>troll </b>would spam like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1820717:date=Jan 1 2011, 07:02 AM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Jan 1 2011, 07:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's what annoyed me the most. The marines had at least 8 sentries in that hallway alone, let alone the old ones in Node Reservers an their base. When I put the hydras down nobody complained until they saw them either. [...] Another gorge came by and started adding to it <u>which did affect the server</u> finally <u>but after killing the sentry guns the problem became less noticeable</u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Allow me to translate:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The marines had 8 sentries in a hall so i felt justified to put 10-12 hydra [see op] in one spot... Then other gorges joined in, and holy ###### lag was the result... Obviously the turrets were lagging the server, but why didn't the lag go completely away when the turrets were destroyed?... hydra have 0% lag... True story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Analysis: The hydra lagged the server MORE because they had something to shoot at... It could of been a marine, powernode, armory etc and the result would of been the same.
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There is also another problem i want to address here: You do KNOW that marine turrets are DIRECTIONAL and can't even shoot up right? The developers intended for marines to place many turrets to cover each other. At the very least 4 (1 in each corner of a room) is VERY common, and seeing 8 is NOT SPAM. Turrets are also VERY easy to destroy and run past (try running across a wall, or jumping, or flying over, or fade-blinking right past to escape the turrets targeting abilities) and you will see why it is necessary for marines to place more then 1 turret in any place.
If you go as a lerk, you can snipe a turret to death in little time.
Perhaps if the devs brought back 360 degree aiming to the turret, like in ns1, then marines wouldn't need to place so many turrets to properly defend a room or hall.
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One more thing: No one likes walls of hydra blockading all exits of the marine base. It sounds like that was your (or your teams) intention, so don't contribute to it. This was very common in ns1 games as well and it always felt like the aliens were begging to be nerfed. It's even worse in ns2 because marines don't even have hand grenades, or any other explosive weapon, researchable from a level-1 command chair! [perhaps if the devs allow grenade-launchers at L1 then this hydra spam ###### would be counterable].
Exactly, the structures we have aren't even all the ones planned. Also, hydras are supposed to be weak and plentiful in order to blend in as part of the dynamic infestation that we don't have yet. Given the goals, the point is to minimize the performance cost of these structures regardless of if they end up limited in the end. Personally I find hydra farms really cool but if anything they take too long to kill right now and besides the obvious lag they are causing they can also be a bit lame with how much hp they have.
But why? The whole point of hydras is to be spread throughout the map as a nuisance but not be entirely too effective by themselves (whips are the more powerful attackers). It goes hand in hand with the spread of DI. In contrast, turrets are meant to be powerful but only in certain directions so requires a few to cover themselves. Gorges enjoy building lots of stuff so lets not take that away from them, but the hydras are a bit powerful for how plentiful they can get.
If anything we should be limiting where you can build hydras to areas of DI but this can't be done yet.
If anything we should be limiting where you can build hydras to areas of DI but this can't be done yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe their's any reason that DI should be capable of anything more then making the walls green, create mist, and block the room lights (and whatever other passive, non-offensive, capabilities the devs want). If the devs make it where a gorge cannot just drop hydra anywhere, but rather the DI spawns unbuilt hydra (which must be manually built by the gorge) then that would be totally non-abusable-acceptable imo.
This is a very effective strategy for the aliens. If marines get contained by hydras/whips/crags at t1, they cant break out. I dont think you can blame players for using effective strategies... blame the current build for being unbalanced.
I love this. I'm somehow interpolating fraps frames that don't exist in 20 minute gameplay videos I spend an hour putting together. But when I spent weeks on the 3 minute gameplay trailer, I couldn't do the same thing? Interpolation requires identifiable missing frames, and fraps records skipped frames as ABCCDEFGGHIJKK, not ABC0DEFG0HIJK0.
The reason I am biting on this flame bait is a feel OP has been treated harshly, and my videos are my proof. 10-12 hydras is not enough to crash a strong server (Read strong - If someone replies 'Whaaah, 10 hydras killed my C2D listen server' I will cry) - There are plenty of games up on NS2HD with many, many more.
A combination of an excessive number of hydras and sentry guns will crash any server - But the use of many hydras is used inappropriatly as an excuse for losing. Perpetuating the myth of 'instant server death due to 10 hydras in a hallway' is not good for NS2's sales or reputation, nor is it helpful for UWE as they try to identify the current crop of game destroying bugs.
The reason I am biting on this flame bait is a feel OP has been treated harshly, and my videos are my proof. 10-12 hydras is not enough to crash a strong server (Read strong - If someone replies 'Whaaah, 10 hydras killed my C2D listen server' I will cry) - There are plenty of games up on NS2HD with many, many more.
A combination of an excessive number of hydras and sentry guns will crash any server - But the use of many hydras is used inappropriatly as an excuse for losing. Perpetuating the myth of 'instant server death due to 10 hydras in a hallway' is not good for NS2's sales or reputation, nor is it helpful for UWE as they try to identify the current crop of game destroying bugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wondered about that post but I don't know anything about it, better left to the experts. But thanks NS2HD, that's exactly the point I wanted to make.
If anything we should be limiting where you can build hydras to areas of DI but this can't be done yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well maybe we're having different ideas about how hydras should be used. I believe hydras are to be used as tactical tools by the gorge to create temporary strongholds in his area of operation. The gorge should be forced to treat them as valuable assets that he needs to budget carefully, not something he should spam all over the place just because he's sitting on 257 plasma.
The reason I am biting on this flame bait is a feel OP has been treated harshly, and my videos are my proof. 10-12 hydras is not enough to crash a strong server (Read strong - If someone replies 'Whaaah, 10 hydras killed my C2D listen server' I will cry) - There are plenty of games up on NS2HD with many, many more.
A combination of an excessive number of hydras and sentry guns will crash any server - But the use of many hydras is used inappropriatly as an excuse for losing. Perpetuating the myth of 'instant server death due to 10 hydras in a hallway' is not good for NS2's sales or reputation, nor is it helpful for UWE as they try to identify the current crop of game destroying bugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps i should clear up what i meant by "smoother". Not referring to interpolation but rather saying that FRAPS isn't capturing every single frame, and possibly this, along with forcing a fixed playback for the video being recorded, via fraps-options, was resulting in a <u>faster</u> (less laggy) playback in your videos.
I could be wrong, and perhaps FRAPS is infallible (producing a forensic quality recording of your gameplay and assuming no post-processing or editing). In which case some would say you have a supercomputer. If so i'm still right in a sense that your video is showing ns2 running faster then what most people are getting.
Relevant recent quotes:
<!--quoteo(post=1818042:date=Dec 21 2010, 06:54 PM:name=Arakash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arakash @ Dec 21 2010, 06:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i didn't read anything about hydra optimisation, but NS2HD said, that they are spammable in this patch?
can somebody confirm whether the hydra lag was fixed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1818612:date=Dec 22 2010, 08:48 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Dec 22 2010, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't mean to say that they are 'spammable,' only that their use in significant numbers is no longer a death knell for a server. <u><b>When I say significant numbers, I mean around 8</b></u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1818830:date=Dec 23 2010, 05:22 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Dec 23 2010, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My god if it is official, can I forward some of this hatred to NS2HD <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/sad.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> I mean he is the one with a <b>plutonium powered rig</b> and all. While I still die to Skulks due to lower FPS (I swear, it's the FPS man!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1820595:date=Dec 31 2010, 06:00 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Dec 31 2010, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, <b>NS2HD showing everything running perfectly when game plays horribly most of the time. :></b> I like that kind of PR especially when they see current state on their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1820648:date=Dec 31 2010, 11:16 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Dec 31 2010, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>I have various issues with the game, it annoys me no end when I watch a NS2HD vid with his nice smooth action, and I jump into a server of a stutter fest.
I am tempted to FRAPS my experience and show that to the public as a true vision of the current NS 2 gameplay, not NS2HD's excessive fanboi vision enhanced version.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This game beta may be flawed and incomplete FocusedWolf. Spark may run unpredictably on some hardware configurations. But your endlessly negative posts, and I need no qoutes to draw this whole forums' mind to them, do not represent the real NS2. They certainly don't add to this debate constructively.
You can selectively qoute this forum as much as you like. Your walls of text will crash and burn at the foot of the immense swell of goodwill that I know lies behind this development.
I won't entertain your posts any further, my only reply will be more and more recorded public games full of players having fun.
Objection your honor! I was quoted out of context <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
>
Someone threw some "official hate" in my general direction, because of my "playable FPS" in my Gameplay commentary vid. I just wanted to share some of that hatred with NS2HD, as he has a much more stable FPS then me. And, you know, the FPS always kills me when Skulks are near, I <i>shwear</i>!!!