<!--quoteo(post=1820212:date=Dec 30 2010, 01:45 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 30 2010, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone uses this excuse. Using "more resources = more firepower" as the only balancing factor will make for a <b>mediocre <i>RTS</i></b> maybe, but for an RTS/<b>FPS</b> (or even any RTS that wants to be decent), it's a terrible, terrible idea. That reasoning justifies a high-resource-cost game-ending nuke.
When you're considering costs, the thing you have to consider is <b>not</b> the <u>flat cost</u> of the object of interest, but its <u>opportunity cost</u>. <b>Resources mean nothing if you don't use them.</b> At some point in time, any unspent resources represent wasted resources. So then you must assume that resources will always be spent - on a lifeform or upgrades.
What's the likelihood that a player will be able to gather 60 plasma (two lerk "lives")? Very high. Then, will the player be unable to go Lerk again if it goes Lerk now? No. If more expensive is better, why doesn't the player play a higher lifeform? He chooses not to. If the player only has 30 plasma, what can't he additionally do, or get, if he evolves into a Lerk? Nothing. What does the team lose by the player choosing to go Lerk? Nothing. Then, what does a player <b>forego</b> by (what is the <b>opportunity cost</b> of) going Lerk? <u>Nothing.</u>
Then, is having the resource cost of the object of interest as the <u>primary balancing factor</u> <i>reasonable</i> in this case (and many others)? <u>No.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's actually pretty smart.
However, if no cost something can beat a high cost something.... say a skulk has a 50/50 chance to kill any marine that is not Tier 3 fully equipped and upgraded (even GL, shotgun, or flamethrower which can cost 30 plasma), then if that skulk goes lerk/fade to match the Shotgun/GL/Flamethrower, they will be 100% murdering every single Tier 2 and below marine.
Meaning the alien team can do more with equal resources.... meaning they are overpowered on a fundamental and basic level.
It is best to assume both teams will be spending all plasma on equipment and personal upgrades (like you said). But if one team has less resource harvesters (because they have lost the entire map) or is saving up plasma (gambling on saving up until Tier 2 weapons are unlocked), they should be penalized for not buying better equipment.
Spending plasma should make one better than not spending plasma.
What you are advocating is plasma being only cosmetic. Which is retarded. If I wanted to spend resources on new meaningless outfits instead of managing resources to pick correct tactical advantages, I'd be playing Gaia Online, not NS2. If spending plasma doesn't improve something, it is meaningless. For reasons I thought were obvious, this is bad.
Saying that cost should roughly scale with utility DOES NOT IMPLY OVERPOWERED BULL###### IS OKAY. That is a completely new, standalone, self-incapsulated argument. No where in the phrase "Cost should roughly scale with utility" is the other phrase "And exorbitant costs paired with exorbitant utility". Look! Check for yourself, Harimau. Do you see it? I sure as hell don't. I'm seeing "Cost should roughly scale with utility". No mention whatsoever of "Really big cost and really big effect" anywhere.
Harimau, you are making fantastic illogical leap when you say "Cost scaling with utility means we will have end-game nukes which destroy everything". There is no gray area here. You are acting without reason.
Is it necessary to have the exact same debate in two threads? Okay: <!--quoteo(post=1820544:date=Jan 1 2011, 01:32 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 1 2011, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where have I said that there exists the phrase "And exorbitant costs paired with exorbitant utility" within the phrase "Cost should roughly scale with utility"? Tell me. What I have said, is that the <u>underlying reasoning</u> behind that <b>justifies</b> such an end-game nuke - you came to your own erroneous inference. And so I <b>fight against</b> that reasoning, not advocate it (as you seem to have implied in your final paragraph).
I've also made the comparison with certain mediocre RTSs that, rather than have rock-paper-scissors mechanics or any kind of worthwhile mechanic, simply equate more resources to more firepower. This is not good for a game, ESPECIALLY not a first person shooter. A player in a first-person shooter doesn't see the metagame, he's not the commander, he either sees an OP weapon in his hands, or an OP alien on the other end. Justifying overpoweredness based on resource cost is simply stupid, and bad game design.
You are right that <b>teams</b> should be penalised for not spending (or having access to) resources, but that should be balanced on a team vs team level. This is a team game.
Things must be balanced less on a numerical level but more thoughtfully: based upon opportunity costs instead. In the case of saving up plasma, the opportunity cost is obvious: they're stuck as a lower lifeform and cannot be more effective than they already are. As it is, however, in most cases people have an overabundance (simply meaning more than what can be spent) of plasma, thereby rendering the opportunity cost moot. There is no real cost to going lerk, or fade, or purchasing a flamethrower, because they were going to do that anyway, and they will always be able to do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1820359:date=Dec 30 2010, 10:39 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Dec 30 2010, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hm, yeah, adding in more drop (i.e. Medic's TF2 syringe gun) would help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, thats always been the plan for the lerk spikes, just not implemented that way currently. But we need to get the spike projectile model visibility issue fixed first. The lerk still has a good amount of work left to do on his flight and his spikes, and how the spores currently work is going to undergo some changes as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1820544:date=Dec 31 2010, 01:32 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 31 2010, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where have I said that there exists the phrase "And exorbitant costs paired with exorbitant utility" within the phrase "Cost should roughly scale with utility"? Tell me. What I have said, is that the <u>underlying reasoning</u> behind that <b>justifies</b> such an end-game nuke - you came to your own erroneous inference. And so I <b>fight against</b> that reasoning, not advocate it (as you seem to have implied in your final paragraph).
I've also made the comparison with certain mediocre RTSs that, rather than have rock-paper-scissors mechanics or any kind of worthwhile mechanic, simply equate more resources to more firepower. This is not good for a game, ESPECIALLY not a first person shooter. A player in a first-person shooter doesn't see the metagame, he's not the commander, he either sees an OP weapon in his hands, or an OP alien on the other end. Justifying overpoweredness based on resource cost is simply stupid, and bad game design.
You are right that <b>teams</b> should be penalised for not spending (or having access to) resources, but that should be balanced on a team vs team level. This is a team game.
Things must be balanced less on a numerical level but more thoughtfully: based upon opportunity costs instead. In the case of saving up plasma, the opportunity cost is obvious: they're stuck as a lower lifeform and cannot be more effective than they already are. As it is, however, in most cases people have an overabundance (simply meaning more than what can be spent) of plasma, thereby rendering the opportunity cost moot. There is no real cost to going lerk, or fade, or purchasing a flamethrower, because they were going to do that anyway, and they will always be able to do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, you know what, fair enough. For some reason, I was remembering an old post (probably misremembering) and also not reading your post either because I find all your nomenclature about opportunity costs and otherwise arcane ( Ah, I'm imagining that last bit read with an english accent ). So I will bow out of the discussion since I know nothing about it.
Cory , adding a drop to the spike trajectory wont fix the issue that the Lerk can virtually fire spikes none stop...it just limits the range the lerk can fire none stop at, and to an extent that is already in. Tried firing at the power node in marine start from east side ? Seems to hit but no damage done.
The issue here is that the attacks spore and spikes ( not sniper ) use too little energy, compare the spikes rate and accuracy plus duration you can shoot vrs a marine iwth thier LMG ... its plainly not even a close contest, hell I was picking off marines like it was nothing on Tram, even when the poor Marine out manouvered me he still got his arse kicked.... by a stupid mechanic, not my skill, I simply spammed spore and spikes while flying off.
Lerk usually die when they get caught on the scenery, or blinded by the flamer ... rarely due to accurate fire of the pistol, even then its usually due to lag telling the lerk he is nearly dead.
Try increasinbg the Lerks energy consumption when using SMG spikes and spores by 3 times...and you will notice the lerk is still powerfull but needs to apply its power much more carefully.
<!--quoteo(post=1820058:date=Dec 29 2010, 11:29 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Dec 29 2010, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one, on either team, likes a hydra spamming gorge. I keep finding games that started lag free and then get borderline unplayable because a gorge thinks that hydra are so underpowered that they need to fill entire rooms with them, and that somehow this is appropriate behavior when marines get gl/ft. One game got so bad that i really need to thank the aliens for cussing that gorge off the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a bad server to me. Unless the gorge spammed literally 60+ hydras. Otherwise I've not seen lag increase due to hydra use.
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Some games i've played in literally do have 60+ hydras, they are everywhere.
It's also pretty much impossible to recover from that as the marine team if you don't already have level 2 weapons, it takes way too long to take out hydras.
<!--quoteo(post=1820652:date=Jan 1 2011, 12:30 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 1 2011, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cory , adding a drop to the spike trajectory wont fix the issue that the Lerk can virtually fire spikes none stop...it just limits the range the lerk can fire none stop at, and to an extent that is already in. Tried firing at the power node in marine start from east side ? Seems to hit but no damage done.
The issue here is that the attacks spore and spikes ( not sniper ) use too little energy, compare the spikes rate and accuracy plus duration you can shoot vrs a marine iwth thier LMG ... its plainly not even a close contest, hell I was picking off marines like it was nothing on Tram, even when the poor Marine out manouvered me he still got his arse kicked.... by a stupid mechanic, not my skill, I simply spammed spore and spikes while flying off.
Lerk usually die when they get caught on the scenery, or blinded by the flamer ... rarely due to accurate fire of the pistol, even then its usually due to lag telling the lerk he is nearly dead.
Try increasinbg the Lerks energy consumption when using SMG spikes and spores by 3 times...and you will notice the lerk is still powerfull but needs to apply its power much more carefully.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since you bring this up, I'd just like to quote my posts in the I&S forums: <!--quoteo(post=1820550:date=Jan 1 2011, 01:53 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 1 2011, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the gas mask is necessary (making spores useless doesn't sit right with me), if you just change the mechanic of spores. Have spores expand as the Lerk shoots it out (and damage to marines proportional to spore density), not just explode on impact into a giant ball. You know, like a gas, diffusing into the atmosphere. So they'd have to get up close and personal to gas a small area with a higher concentration, or they could hang back and gas a large area but the concentration (and so, damage over time) would be less. A group of Lerks would still wreck you. I'd like to see the Lerk as less of a "look at me, my ranged weapons are better than marines" sniper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1820637:date=Jan 1 2011, 11:42 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 1 2011, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah the idea is that it would stack, and if you really wanted to gas an area, you'd have to deplete your energy quite a bit and/or work in tandem with another lerk(s). So (as a single Lerk) you'd have to balance your options: small area, close distance, medium-high concentration, low energy; small area, close distance, high concentration, high energy; large area, far distance, low concentration, low energy; large area, far distance, medium-low concentration, high energy; etc. - the mechanic itself balances itself. If you have multiple lerks, you could have a higher concentration per area (small or large) and/or a lower energy cost per Lerk. Also, I like the idea that spores don't poison or suffocate marines, but instead corrode away at them (especially armour, so it could be used as a support weapon) - then they could be used on buildings as well (but of course you'd have to get up close and personal to gas a building effectively).
Cory has put in that Lerk spikes will have bullet drop (just that it hasn't been implemented in the code yet) which will make sniping more skilful, but I'd also like to see a higher energy cost and/or bullet spread and/or lower rate of fire for the regular spikes. I think a Lerk should take two or three snipes to kill a standard marine, and maybe three or four snipes for a decked out one - snipes should do less damage to buildings except turrets (to prevent a Lerk just hanging back and sniping away at power nodes, but make them effective at taking out those annoying turrets) - four or five snipes should deplete all its energy, so sniping can't be abused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1820597:date=Dec 31 2010, 11:33 PM:name=Rulgrok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Dec 31 2010, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how Cory doesn't mention roost or the damage shield in his post =p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't have the full info regarding why these abilities were removed. I'm pretty sure Charlie still wants roost for the Lerk. I seem to remember him being surprised that it was actually working at one point, as I don't think he'd done much on the code side with it yet. But I don't know of any specific reason why he would not want to have lerk roost in there eventually.
Damage shield for the gorge was problematic, and some of the reasons I've heard mentioned by Charlie probably led to its removal. It is a confusing ability to convey to the player what exactly they are doing, when they press the button. It is not a very fun ability, since you have to stay in place while using it. He's got a belly slide which already is useful for getting out of bad situations quickly, so there's not many reasons why he'd stop still in the middle of the room and use this ability. Plus, the gorge has quite a few abilities already compared to most of the other aliens, (there's even ones planned that aren't in yet, like the ability to spread DI) and if anything, if we add more abilities they would probably focus more on his building side of gameplay.
That's all the info I know off the top of my head regarding those 2 alien abilities.
Thank you Cory, the information you've provided reassures my faith in NS2 (not that I've lost any yet)!
Good to hear about the decisions behind gameplay, I think Onos Bone Shield will be more effective than Gorge Damage Soak any day. I'll be looking forward to abilities that expand on the Gorge's relation with the Kharaa Commander, particularly DI and maybe one more building option.
Hey we got the animations for the crouch-shield anyway so it can be added to a mod in the future I guess, maybe see how it works that way and if it can find its way patched back into the official NS2 at some point. Thanks for the reply ;)
Comments
When you're considering costs, the thing you have to consider is <b>not</b> the <u>flat cost</u> of the object of interest, but its <u>opportunity cost</u>. <b>Resources mean nothing if you don't use them.</b> At some point in time, any unspent resources represent wasted resources. So then you must assume that resources will always be spent - on a lifeform or upgrades.
What's the likelihood that a player will be able to gather 60 plasma (two lerk "lives")? Very high. Then, will the player be unable to go Lerk again if it goes Lerk now? No. If more expensive is better, why doesn't the player play a higher lifeform? He chooses not to. If the player only has 30 plasma, what can't he additionally do, or get, if he evolves into a Lerk? Nothing. What does the team lose by the player choosing to go Lerk? Nothing. Then, what does a player <b>forego</b> by (what is the <b>opportunity cost</b> of) going Lerk? <u>Nothing.</u>
Then, is having the resource cost of the object of interest as the <u>primary balancing factor</u> <i>reasonable</i> in this case (and many others)? <u>No.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually pretty smart.
However, if no cost something can beat a high cost something.... say a skulk has a 50/50 chance to kill any marine that is not Tier 3 fully equipped and upgraded (even GL, shotgun, or flamethrower which can cost 30 plasma), then if that skulk goes lerk/fade to match the Shotgun/GL/Flamethrower, they will be 100% murdering every single Tier 2 and below marine.
Meaning the alien team can do more with equal resources.... meaning they are overpowered on a fundamental and basic level.
It is best to assume both teams will be spending all plasma on equipment and personal upgrades (like you said). But if one team has less resource harvesters (because they have lost the entire map) or is saving up plasma (gambling on saving up until Tier 2 weapons are unlocked), they should be penalized for not buying better equipment.
Spending plasma should make one better than not spending plasma.
What you are advocating is plasma being only cosmetic. Which is retarded. If I wanted to spend resources on new meaningless outfits instead of managing resources to pick correct tactical advantages, I'd be playing Gaia Online, not NS2. If spending plasma doesn't improve something, it is meaningless. For reasons I thought were obvious, this is bad.
Saying that cost should roughly scale with utility DOES NOT IMPLY OVERPOWERED BULL###### IS OKAY. That is a completely new, standalone, self-incapsulated argument. No where in the phrase "Cost should roughly scale with utility" is the other phrase "And exorbitant costs paired with exorbitant utility". Look! Check for yourself, Harimau. Do you see it? I sure as hell don't. I'm seeing "Cost should roughly scale with utility". No mention whatsoever of "Really big cost and really big effect" anywhere.
Harimau, you are making fantastic illogical leap when you say "Cost scaling with utility means we will have end-game nukes which destroy everything". There is no gray area here. You are acting without reason.
Okay:
<!--quoteo(post=1820544:date=Jan 1 2011, 01:32 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 1 2011, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where have I said that there exists the phrase "And exorbitant costs paired with exorbitant utility" within the phrase "Cost should roughly scale with utility"? Tell me.
What I have said, is that the <u>underlying reasoning</u> behind that <b>justifies</b> such an end-game nuke - you came to your own erroneous inference. And so I <b>fight against</b> that reasoning, not advocate it (as you seem to have implied in your final paragraph).
I've also made the comparison with certain mediocre RTSs that, rather than have rock-paper-scissors mechanics or any kind of worthwhile mechanic, simply equate more resources to more firepower. This is not good for a game, ESPECIALLY not a first person shooter. A player in a first-person shooter doesn't see the metagame, he's not the commander, he either sees an OP weapon in his hands, or an OP alien on the other end. Justifying overpoweredness based on resource cost is simply stupid, and bad game design.
You are right that <b>teams</b> should be penalised for not spending (or having access to) resources, but that should be balanced on a team vs team level. This is a team game.
Things must be balanced less on a numerical level but more thoughtfully: based upon opportunity costs instead. In the case of saving up plasma, the opportunity cost is obvious: they're stuck as a lower lifeform and cannot be more effective than they already are. As it is, however, in most cases people have an overabundance (simply meaning more than what can be spent) of plasma, thereby rendering the opportunity cost moot. There is no real cost to going lerk, or fade, or purchasing a flamethrower, because they were going to do that anyway, and they will always be able to do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, thats always been the plan for the lerk spikes, just not implemented that way currently. But we need to get the spike projectile model visibility issue fixed first. The lerk still has a good amount of work left to do on his flight and his spikes, and how the spores currently work is going to undergo some changes as well.
--Cory
What I have said, is that the <u>underlying reasoning</u> behind that <b>justifies</b> such an end-game nuke - you came to your own erroneous inference. And so I <b>fight against</b> that reasoning, not advocate it (as you seem to have implied in your final paragraph).
I've also made the comparison with certain mediocre RTSs that, rather than have rock-paper-scissors mechanics or any kind of worthwhile mechanic, simply equate more resources to more firepower. This is not good for a game, ESPECIALLY not a first person shooter. A player in a first-person shooter doesn't see the metagame, he's not the commander, he either sees an OP weapon in his hands, or an OP alien on the other end. Justifying overpoweredness based on resource cost is simply stupid, and bad game design.
You are right that <b>teams</b> should be penalised for not spending (or having access to) resources, but that should be balanced on a team vs team level. This is a team game.
Things must be balanced less on a numerical level but more thoughtfully: based upon opportunity costs instead. In the case of saving up plasma, the opportunity cost is obvious: they're stuck as a lower lifeform and cannot be more effective than they already are. As it is, however, in most cases people have an overabundance (simply meaning more than what can be spent) of plasma, thereby rendering the opportunity cost moot. There is no real cost to going lerk, or fade, or purchasing a flamethrower, because they were going to do that anyway, and they will always be able to do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, you know what, fair enough. For some reason, I was remembering an old post (probably misremembering) and also not reading your post either because I find all your nomenclature about opportunity costs and otherwise arcane ( Ah, I'm imagining that last bit read with an english accent ). So I will bow out of the discussion since I know nothing about it.
Tried firing at the power node in marine start from east side ? Seems to hit but no damage done.
The issue here is that the attacks spore and spikes ( not sniper ) use too little energy, compare the spikes rate and accuracy plus duration you can shoot vrs a marine iwth thier LMG ... its plainly not even a close contest, hell I was picking off marines like it was nothing on Tram, even when the poor Marine out manouvered me he still got his arse kicked.... by a stupid mechanic, not my skill, I simply spammed spore and spikes while flying off.
Lerk usually die when they get caught on the scenery, or blinded by the flamer ... rarely due to accurate fire of the pistol, even then its usually due to lag telling the lerk he is nearly dead.
Try increasinbg the Lerks energy consumption when using SMG spikes and spores by 3 times...and you will notice the lerk is still powerfull but needs to apply its power much more carefully.
Sounds like a bad server to me. Unless the gorge spammed literally 60+ hydras. Otherwise I've not seen lag increase due to hydra use.
It's also pretty much impossible to recover from that as the marine team if you don't already have level 2 weapons, it takes way too long to take out hydras.
Tried firing at the power node in marine start from east side ? Seems to hit but no damage done.
The issue here is that the attacks spore and spikes ( not sniper ) use too little energy, compare the spikes rate and accuracy plus duration you can shoot vrs a marine iwth thier LMG ... its plainly not even a close contest, hell I was picking off marines like it was nothing on Tram, even when the poor Marine out manouvered me he still got his arse kicked.... by a stupid mechanic, not my skill, I simply spammed spore and spikes while flying off.
Lerk usually die when they get caught on the scenery, or blinded by the flamer ... rarely due to accurate fire of the pistol, even then its usually due to lag telling the lerk he is nearly dead.
Try increasinbg the Lerks energy consumption when using SMG spikes and spores by 3 times...and you will notice the lerk is still powerfull but needs to apply its power much more carefully.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since you bring this up, I'd just like to quote my posts in the I&S forums:
<!--quoteo(post=1820550:date=Jan 1 2011, 01:53 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 1 2011, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the gas mask is necessary (making spores useless doesn't sit right with me), if you just change the mechanic of spores. Have spores expand as the Lerk shoots it out (and damage to marines proportional to spore density), not just explode on impact into a giant ball. You know, like a gas, diffusing into the atmosphere. So they'd have to get up close and personal to gas a small area with a higher concentration, or they could hang back and gas a large area but the concentration (and so, damage over time) would be less. A group of Lerks would still wreck you. I'd like to see the Lerk as less of a "look at me, my ranged weapons are better than marines" sniper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1820637:date=Jan 1 2011, 11:42 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 1 2011, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah the idea is that it would stack, and if you really wanted to gas an area, you'd have to deplete your energy quite a bit and/or work in tandem with another lerk(s). So (as a single Lerk) you'd have to balance your options:
small area, close distance, medium-high concentration, low energy;
small area, close distance, high concentration, high energy;
large area, far distance, low concentration, low energy;
large area, far distance, medium-low concentration, high energy;
etc. - the mechanic itself balances itself. If you have multiple lerks, you could have a higher concentration per area (small or large) and/or a lower energy cost per Lerk.
Also, I like the idea that spores don't poison or suffocate marines, but instead corrode away at them (especially armour, so it could be used as a support weapon) - then they could be used on buildings as well (but of course you'd have to get up close and personal to gas a building effectively).
Cory has put in that Lerk spikes will have bullet drop (just that it hasn't been implemented in the code yet) which will make sniping more skilful, but I'd also like to see a higher energy cost and/or bullet spread and/or lower rate of fire for the regular spikes.
I think a Lerk should take two or three snipes to kill a standard marine, and maybe three or four snipes for a decked out one - snipes should do less damage to buildings except turrets (to prevent a Lerk just hanging back and sniping away at power nodes, but make them effective at taking out those annoying turrets) - four or five snipes should deplete all its energy, so sniping can't be abused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't have the full info regarding why these abilities were removed. I'm pretty sure Charlie still wants roost for the Lerk. I seem to remember him being surprised that it was actually working at one point, as I don't think he'd done much on the code side with it yet. But I don't know of any specific reason why he would not want to have lerk roost in there eventually.
Damage shield for the gorge was problematic, and some of the reasons I've heard mentioned by Charlie probably led to its removal. It is a confusing ability to convey to the player what exactly they are doing, when they press the button. It is not a very fun ability, since you have to stay in place while using it. He's got a belly slide which already is useful for getting out of bad situations quickly, so there's not many reasons why he'd stop still in the middle of the room and use this ability. Plus, the gorge has quite a few abilities already compared to most of the other aliens, (there's even ones planned that aren't in yet, like the ability to spread DI) and if anything, if we add more abilities they would probably focus more on his building side of gameplay.
That's all the info I know off the top of my head regarding those 2 alien abilities.
--Cory
Good to hear about the decisions behind gameplay, I think Onos Bone Shield will be more effective than Gorge Damage Soak any day. I'll be looking forward to abilities that expand on the Gorge's relation with the Kharaa Commander, particularly DI and maybe one more building option.
Thanks for the reply ;)