I'm not a math geek really, but when this was first explained to me, I was told that it's a human fallacy to associate repeating non-terminating numbers as actual decimal numbers. It's a non-intuitive idea, but saying that something is approaching a number in terms of an infinite system, then you're basically saying it's that number because it's approaching it anyway.
I double checked it on wikipedia <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999.." target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999..</a>. , and I know it's wikipedia, but there should be more than enough resources to entertain whomever might care.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited December 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1813995:date=Dec 6 2010, 04:22 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Dec 6 2010, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is pretty close to what we have except that plasma is for individuals and carbon is for the team. Yes we also have energy, but that's lesser used and is really only for structure abilities (distress beacon, umbra, etc.).
It's a bit confusing right now because the Commander UI doesn't do a great job showing what things cost (it doesn't show energy costs) and there's no tooltip or anything showing you the difference between carbon and plasma. I believe these two main resources are necessary for making NS2 scale properly for all team sizes (something NS1 never managed) but I'm still trying to figure out the simplest way to get that across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still, I think three resource types is too confusing. I've had to explain to new commanders that MACs cost 50 energy, not 50 carbon, and that the energy amount is located below the cs icon at the bottom of the HUD rather than the two resource icons at the top.
You've also muddied the issue by making sentries cost plasma rather than carbon. The current system is neither clear nor intuitive and its causing lots of confusion among new players.
Guys, this is completely irrelevant, because a) 0.3... is not representable as floating point number and b) the actual upgrade value is 0.3333 (kResourceUpgradeAmount in Balance.lua).
<!--quoteo(post=1815752:date=Dec 13 2010, 04:49 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Dec 13 2010, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->three decimals is already that small no normal human is able to tell the difference anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1813855:date=Dec 6 2010, 11:01 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Dec 6 2010, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like 3 upgrades for RTs. It's too much micro management imo. 1 upgrade is fine. But having to keep track of 4 different levels for each RT you have is overkill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree very much. I think the resource gathering rate should be upgradeable. That makes the economy and production much more complicated. I like that level of complication. It makes for a higher skill ceiling. Also, no one has to keep track of 4 states for each RT. There are only two states which are useful to keep track of: "Not fully upgraded" and "Fully upgraded". That's two. If the RT isn't done upgrading, it could use another upgrade. If it's done upgrading, it no longer requires management.
People who can't manage their economy will upgrade RT's poorly. People who can manage will upgrade it correctly, meaning their higher skill will give advantages. We like higher skill giving advantages, right?
First of all, the resource icons in the comm chair are bugged so everything looks like it costs Carbon. Even MACs, which only cost energy. That creates a ton of confusion. Also, the icons are bizarre and not descriptive at all, what are those blue and green circles supposed to be? Carbon should look like a mineral of some sort and plasma should look like, well, plasma. On top of that, players have very little awareness of resources because they can only see them on the scoreboard - they should be shown at all times somewhere on the HUD, along with the resource node count(and commander names).
Anyway, from a design perspective I like personal & team resources. The overlap is confusing though, why does the commander use personal resources? From the commander's perspective the distinction is completely arbitrary, it doesn't really make sense. I think everything the commander does should use carbon, and he should be able to give away his excess plasma to marines of his choice if he wants(think of it as an obedience bonus).
Carbon should look like a silver/grey graphite rod. Plasma should look like a ball of orange plasma. Energy should look like... err... I dunno, blue electricity?
Now I'm no graphic designer and my tools are limited... <img src="http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9061/ns2icons.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Well, symbols are meant to distinguish different objects through visual representation. Having a black ball to represent carbon will probably not be very good looking, neither does it indicate its significance in the game. But I think we're getting a bit off topic here. =)
<!--quoteo(post=1813995:date=Dec 6 2010, 05:22 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Dec 6 2010, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is pretty close to what we have except that plasma is for individuals and carbon is for the team. Yes we also have energy, but that's lesser used and is really only for structure abilities (distress beacon, umbra, etc.).
It's a bit confusing right now because the Commander UI doesn't do a great job showing what things cost (it doesn't show energy costs) and there's no tooltip or anything showing you the difference between carbon and plasma. I believe these two main resources are necessary for making NS2 scale properly for all team sizes (something NS1 never managed) but I'm still trying to figure out the simplest way to get that across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The "carbon" and "plasma" terms don't intuitively describe functionality. I think carbon works, though it could be applied to either resource pool, but plasma is confusing. I think of blood plasma first, but others think of physics plasma. I'm not sure what either of those could possibly mean in context of an RTS resource. Carbon can be pretty much anything, organic or artificial construction.
Brainstorming terms: points credits reserves resources units assets supply
Another thought: Do we even need plasma tied to resource towers? It's odd and confusing to get two resources from one structure. Could it be balanced to have them increase at a consistent rate throughout the game? Just enough to prevent spamming of weapons and personal upgrades. Or would that encourage players to be TOO cautious?
I didn't read the entire thread but speaking of confusing resources, I don't understand why the personal res(Carbon?edit: nvm it's Plasma) isn't shown all but only in the scoreboard.
Comments
It's true, and just for fun, here's the proof!
x = 0.999...
10x = 9.999...
10x - x = 9.999... - 0.999...
9x = 9
x = 1
I double checked it on wikipedia <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999.." target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999..</a>. , and I know it's wikipedia, but there should be more than enough resources to entertain whomever might care.
It's a bit confusing right now because the Commander UI doesn't do a great job showing what things cost (it doesn't show energy costs) and there's no tooltip or anything showing you the difference between carbon and plasma. I believe these two main resources are necessary for making NS2 scale properly for all team sizes (something NS1 never managed) but I'm still trying to figure out the simplest way to get that across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still, I think three resource types is too confusing. I've had to explain to new commanders that MACs cost 50 energy, not 50 carbon, and that the energy amount is located below the cs icon at the bottom of the HUD rather than the two resource icons at the top.
You've also muddied the issue by making sentries cost plasma rather than carbon. The current system is neither clear nor intuitive and its causing lots of confusion among new players.
a) 0.3... is not representable as floating point number and
b) the actual upgrade value is 0.3333 (kResourceUpgradeAmount in Balance.lua).
Edit: To the math discussion above.
I can tell, and I want my 0.0001 percent damn it.
I disagree very much. I think the resource gathering rate should be upgradeable. That makes the economy and production much more complicated. I like that level of complication. It makes for a higher skill ceiling. Also, no one has to keep track of 4 states for each RT. There are only two states which are useful to keep track of: "Not fully upgraded" and "Fully upgraded". That's two. If the RT isn't done upgrading, it could use another upgrade. If it's done upgrading, it no longer requires management.
People who can't manage their economy will upgrade RT's poorly. People who can manage will upgrade it correctly, meaning their higher skill will give advantages. We like higher skill giving advantages, right?
Anyway, from a design perspective I like personal & team resources. The overlap is confusing though, why does the commander use personal resources? From the commander's perspective the distinction is completely arbitrary, it doesn't really make sense. I think everything the commander does should use carbon, and he should be able to give away his excess plasma to marines of his choice if he wants(think of it as an obedience bonus).
Now I'm no graphic designer and my tools are limited...
<img src="http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9061/ns2icons.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/plasma2.jpg" target="_blank">plasma</a>
<a href="http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/electricity.jpg" target="_blank">electricity</a>
It's a bit confusing right now because the Commander UI doesn't do a great job showing what things cost (it doesn't show energy costs) and there's no tooltip or anything showing you the difference between carbon and plasma. I believe these two main resources are necessary for making NS2 scale properly for all team sizes (something NS1 never managed) but I'm still trying to figure out the simplest way to get that across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The "carbon" and "plasma" terms don't intuitively describe functionality. I think carbon works, though it could be applied to either resource pool, but plasma is confusing. I think of blood plasma first, but others think of physics plasma. I'm not sure what either of those could possibly mean in context of an RTS resource. Carbon can be pretty much anything, organic or artificial construction.
Brainstorming terms:
points
credits
reserves
resources
units
assets
supply
Another thought: Do we even need plasma tied to resource towers? It's odd and confusing to get two resources from one structure. Could it be balanced to have them increase at a consistent rate throughout the game? Just enough to prevent spamming of weapons and personal upgrades. Or would that encourage players to be TOO cautious?
--Cory