<!--quoteo(post=1811181:date=Nov 27 2010, 09:40 AM:name=SwampRat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SwampRat @ Nov 27 2010, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and I think free-hand drawing on the minimap should be in for the commander (possibly wipe-able by marines to counter comedians) to show strategy etc without specific waypoints.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes! i remember a disucssion about whether this would be possible in the old American Natural Selection League forums (or nsmod.org, I forget). you're totally right, a marine control board on the bottom would make squad organizing easier and general awareness more accessible than the old formula of hovering over each individual.
You know... since there's only 10 soldiers per side, displaying each unit's portrait sounds like a good idea.
They could be grouped by squad. Their portrait's color would indicate health. All the information needed could be displayed efficiently and all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1811167:date=Nov 27 2010, 09:27 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 27 2010, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rockdown is the most played map... there is no communication between players/commander yet you still do not know what your orders should be. Now imagine playing tram, or as suggested a larger map. There may be 5 straight build routes across the map from the start, and about 50 possible strategies (rush, relocate, etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Using the current state of the beta is a really bad example. Rockdown (which was just an engine test map) is so small, you can run back to the armoury within seconds to replenish ammo and weapons. The flamethrower and GL are so overpowered at the moment, the marine doesn't require any commander input because he is so powerful with just one of these weapons. The need for strategy and communication completely breaks down due to the size of the map and the overpowered weapons. Then let's not forget the fact that many people's playing experiences are being compromised by lag and low framerate.
<!--quoteo(post=1810824:date=Nov 26 2010, 04:42 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 26 2010, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only on structures... How do i know which marine needs health if i watch a fight? (5 marines) I could drop 1 medpack and hope the right one saw it or i could spam all over the place - but thats not effective.
I need to click on the bar => he gets highlighted on the field => Now i know the position of him => next step, i need to select the commandstation => drop a medpack. With rings all i have to do is drop a medpack on or in front of the guy with low health - because i know instantly which one it is. ???<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok this is Sgt. Ripley from beta days and onwards of NS1. I missed the alpha release and thought, well people will make sure this turns out well. Reading the forums now, I AM IN SHOCK.. and I been spending 2 hours ot just clam down so I don't just go on a rant on these mother... ok taking a deep breath. I will post a rant in a bit.. I am not testing but was about ot pay the beta test but NO WAY IFTHIS HAS BECOME RETARDED.
In the meantime, a commander in real life, would *not* now which soldier needs the medpack automatically, just like in a rl lbattle if he could indeed 'zap' a medpack, he'd drop it. If a soldier is at full dropping it on him diodnt use ot work. rings helped you decide. but also a comm request + spacebar would do the trick.
Just saying, some things should not always be 'easy to allow' as part of the 'chaos of war'.
Seriously:
ok this is right now from an im to my ex:
ye when i playted this i said this is the future of online gaming [3:55:06 PM] silentantarctica: fps [3:55:10 PM] silentantarctica: it was about TEAMWORK [3:55:13 PM] silentantarctica: and not just individual skill [3:55:18 PM] silentantarctica: no matter how good your rine is at firing [3:55:32 PM] silentantarctica: his best asset wouldnt be some solo rush vs ellenty billion aliens [3:55:39 PM] silentantarctica: no, it was him covering your arse as you welded him [3:55:40 PM] silentantarctica: or a vent [3:55:44 PM] silentantarctica: or built a turret [3:55:47 PM] silentantarctica: etc etc [3:56:09 PM] silentantarctica: it was how fast your commander dropped u med packs and ammo when u r in the hive screaming OMG WE NEED AMMMMOOO AND HELTH NOOOOWW NOOOW NOWWW COM!! [3:56:36 PM] silentantarctica: it was the rine being told by commander to weld those 3 ###### in heavy armour as they wen tdown to take out the 3 fades who were terrorising and destroying the east base PG and TF, it was the comm which when rines would be a bit unruly, would go MOVE SOLDIER. -YES, SIR!- [3:57:03 PM] silentantarctica: it was the pack of skulks who just mindlessly had to keep getting shot down ,blown up of mines to get at the TF say, respawning and kept being screamed at DONT STOP THE ATTACK WE NEED OT KILL THAT TURRET FACTYORY NOW NOW NOW.. goooo [3:57:09 PM] silentantarctica: THATS what this game was about [3:57:47 PM] silentantarctica: 30 mins- 2hrs of pure onslaught of WAR.. teams battling it out with the odd individual sneaking up and doing small missions of intelligence or sabotage whilst the onslaughts were ongoing
tech rushes, HA trains, Siege attacks, jp+sg rush, GL clearance, OC spams, and I swear to God, if FATTY (the gorge) loses his meaning, WTF IS THE POINT OF this game any longer? kill fatty\? Christ I wanna see the GENIUS who comes up with the alternative solutions! As they better be well integrated into the various things of this game which made it sooo intricate. the fps peeps which werent yet sdo good, always coudl og out and do S&D (search and destroy), or even HP (hold position), the ones who knew the game better / comms could send eaisly ocmmands and receive, and there were so many layers of various sting operations by lerks, rines, skulks, fatty's , comms, fades and what not, to make the game a truly unioque battle experience.
But with all the e-cool childish brats online who would come ot ns, would quickly realise how poinltess that was, and learned to play teams..and loved it, and hey quickly became quite nice.
I just read the forums now of things I can not even believe. If this game is going down the drain just for yrs of making cute graphics.. is liketurning a massive future game into nothing but a bimbo marilyn monroe with no brains adn ended up in THATS RIGHT.. SUICIDE. Hell, put brains in the bimbo, and hell, we'll marryher. SO GET A FRAKKING GRIP.. jesus!
I'll come back in some days when I have clamed down as of right now, I 'd order in my rines with grenade launchers and sg's and blow the ns team out of space!
gvh dgkchg zxdh igh zoyid 78 zdfh bz [3:57:50 PM] silentantarctica: sigh [3:58:04 PM] silentantarctica: reading the forums now im SHOCKED on how everythign seems ot have fallen apart
@sgt.ripley: Your grammar, spelling and sentence structure is god awful. But I think I get what you're saying, marines are OP and don't have anything to do other than shoot people. Sure, this much is true. But even so, that is more of an issue with the balance of the weapons/upgrades. The issue here is that there is no com/unit relationship and the com doesn't have enough things to do. He can build a base which doesn't take long, and then he can baby-sit marines which is too difficult because of all the stupid UI switches you have to make.
<!--quoteo(post=1810883:date=Nov 26 2010, 08:01 PM:name=Pistachio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pistachio @ Nov 26 2010, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I like the hands off approach they're creating with the commander. In NS1 without a good comm the game was already decided, and if your comm did nothing, nothing got done. Now it's looking like that's not as much of an issue, and with the option of having multiple commanders it's likely they'll be someone up there when you really need it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pisatchio.. yes and so the game lasted anythign form 5-15 mins... then new map load, new com, hey one of the geezers who knows how.. or who has seen someone how has and gave it a go, little by little we all got better... but most of all, team play developed.. and which games were the best? the SICK ones which both teams were teamplaying their arses off!
And man how it rocked. To get rid of com + players , Fatty + players is like hey, I am too stupid to learn, I will sing the national anthem to my flag.
I am so disillusioned now, I am so happy I didn't just go beta without coming to forum. I wonder how you get a refund.
Seriously, go and get 1000 other fps out there. why ruin this game SIGH.
Well, I have my old ns 1.02 files, but will go the ns v3.x too if it's played. If this really has goen down the drain, I hope the devs get their money for their nice gfx and their life karma for their loyalty to ideals.
Yes.. I am an aerospace engineer actually... but I was born a catholic .. I am emotional sometimes ;) (Like now, then I will spew out typonese at a rate of 100wpm) :)
Sorry, I am aware I am just in fury.. but I read the first posts about com and gorges, a friend asked me of that 'fantastic best game ever' I used to talk about.. and I will calm down... I am trrying now.. really, but just can't. I am seeing red, as the proverbial bull would say :)
<!--quoteo(post=1811218:date=Nov 27 2010, 06:26 PM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Nov 27 2010, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@sgt.ripley: Your grammar, spelling and sentence structure is god awful. But I think I get what you're saying, marines are OP and don't have anything to do other than shoot people. Sure, this much is true. But even so, that is more of an issue with the balance of the weapons/upgrades. The issue here is that there is no com/unit relationship and the com doesn't have enough things to do. He can build a base which doesn't take long, and then he can baby-sit marines which is too difficult because of all the stupid UI switches you have to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Zuriki.. to read what you say about the com, just makes me go .. "Oh, this is not like that game NS I know. It's awesome.. try it sometime!".
I don't believe it. And what happened to the game which allowed for (many who point out if they were not so good in one or other role), they would happily do the minor roles as they learned how important they were/are too? (dropping stuff as a fatty but not becoming one since it would hog team res [back then], or being the guy with the welder behind the 3 guys in HA/HMG). Why, because we liked to be PART of a UNIT, a team. This is truly ALIENS vs HUMANS in a totally different way. I beg to ask you to rememebr how it was when we were in the waiting room and when cs people would show up... 'AH' .. typical a certian way (I was myself a cs player ) but as you learned ns, you became a TEAM player. Sure, I had more than enough freedom to go solo just as much as I wanted. But when a battle first evolved , becming epic.. people joined in and were happily involved.
I as a noob com, on eclipse, had learned enough but had never finished off an alien team before, we played a 2 hour game with me as com! The players thought it was the most epic ever!
Now , I was retarded and didn't know to finish them off when we had 2 hives, HA/HMGs all over the place, but I DIDNT COMM my dsoldiers in a directed attack, they just went rambo... we though it would finish them off... a fatty hid in the CC? (the middle one) in the vents building up a massive chamber I failed to see in scans... before we knew it we lost a hive and had to rebuild.. the tide turned and they had us on our knees but then some of my sergeants (team-leading experienced soldiers) took the typical smart arse solutions and we rebuffed them.... AND AGAIN we re-conquered,, all the way to almost doing them till again I just gave them GL's and thought they would finish it off but they didnt.. they trusted ME... but the point was, since it was SO ENGULFING, everyone worked as a team.. and afterwards both sides thougth it to be so epic (given my end game noobiness), we ranted abt it for ages.. as 'we were sure you would have us then' when 'you guys did that' when 'we did that' it was all about WE AND YOU.. TEAMS.
In those 2 hrs, you dont think everyone was high on adrenaline on rambo missions in between?
And now what? what is it this game is? some hanky panky lightinig and lets shooot aliens and rines? PLEAASEEE , go and buy the 2000 other fps games.
Or else THINK OUT OF THE BOX... STAY TRUE TO YOUR OCNCEPT which proved to be awesome. Spare us the idiocy of being mindless drones or change jobs (thisis not to you poster but to the devs ^^)
TO Azraniel: Sure, YOu deal with mine, I will deal with yours? WIll even out.. mine are less but I'll be better than you, so we will end up finishing at about same time and even have a coffee afterwards, all refreshed eh! :)
Firstly, none of us commenting this thread have any idea about how this going to turn out as a game. All we can do is voice concerns to how it is developing, what we think could improve things and generate concepts that the devs can either consider, or not.
Coming on here and shouting a lot, calling everything retarded and writing lines and lines of text that is abusive and not very concise is not a good start.
As for the comments from Zuriki about the comm not having enough to do, I think he has too much to do (but mainly because of bogged down interface). Which is exactly why you do not have enough time to be on the front line helping out. Also way points have no incentive, or commands of any sort. Another problem. You do notice that you get more of a response over the mic or through text, which is why this should culminate in a unique interface.
Given - later in the game there is a lot less to do. But at the start, you have to be constantly building, thinking about sentry placement, etc... if player commanding is given more priority, things will get worse because it will take up even more time. You also have to micro manage repair or power nodes, etc. This is why some areas need to be dumbed down imo (supply) and others increased (way points/auto rewards).
No one wants this to be some sort of sit back and chill command interface. But for the commander to be the commander I think everyone wishes he was, you need to divide his role into different areas, set aside X% of the time for doing each task (building/repair/strategy/way points) and create ways of plusing/minusing times from these areas to create a balance.
Giving a player list (as has been discussed) with all its features, would be a way of doing this for example.
<!--quoteo(post=1811230:date=Nov 27 2010, 06:11 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 27 2010, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the comments from Zuriki about the comm not having enough to do, I think he has too much to do (but mainly because of bogged down interface). Which is exactly why you do not have enough time to be on the front line helping out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, I have to disagree, if only to defend my point. Firstly, yes, you do have a lot to do at the start. Expansion, sentries, res claiming. But after the initial expansion is over and all you're doing is upgrading existing structures - there is nothing to do. I can help out on the frontlines, but my problem is finding the troops. That and med/ammo dropping is pretty boring work - and attempting to give commands to your troops (either via waypoints or via text/mic) usually does not fruition into team-work. You just get ignored.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Given - later in the game there is a lot less to do. But at the start, you have to be constantly building, thinking about sentry placement, etc... if player commanding is given more priority, things will get worse because it will take up even more time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1810730:date=Nov 26 2010, 04:17 AM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Nov 26 2010, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...Everything the commander does is finished in a few minutes...
In conclusion, the commander is not a fun role to play, and fun should be a priority in any game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're typing essays about why being the commander sucks but the game isn't even finished yet. The game has only become playable for some people in the most recent patch. If you find when you're commanding a 15v15, controlling a mobile siege tank on one front, spamming med and catpacks on the other, and continually upgrading everything available is too little and boring then come back and say it sucks. If you find that commanding a 4v4 on a barely playable server with less than half the tech tree implemented is too boring then maybe hold off a little bit.
I'm all for suggestions, and I know that's what forums are for, but people don't want to give anything time to see how it works in the actual game environment or they want to rush to conclusions based off incredibly small amounts of information and experience.
Beta. To test it better we have loads of resources at start. Is not balanced. There are tons of features still not implemented. Once all this is added, balanced and the final stage has arrived we can discuss.
<!--quoteo(post=1811214:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:01 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 27 2010, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is not a bad example, it is a good example.
If things are not working really at a good level on a small map with linear play, how will they work on larger maps with X number of outcomes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just explained how...
Because Rockdown is such a simple map, because weapons like the GL and the Flamethrower are so overpowered, and because few people are playing seriously, the need for the commander is diminished. Bigger, more complex maps, balanced weapons, and a complete feature set will facilitate the need for greater commander input.
I guess i should have backed up the "lack of a dedicated comm" comment with "at this stage of the game". I fully understand (and hope) that in later builds they will balance out the res flow and timeline of the game.
But i stand by what i said about the tether being broken, and disagree that it's a pointless observation. The res flow issue can be easily solved, however the MACs vs. Players issue is entirely different. Sure, everything is <i>subject</i> to change up until the final release, but something like this is a massive design change they've chosen to make, and the effect- even in this stage of beta, is a negative one.
That being said, it <i>is</i> still beta, who knows what they'll change/add/improve. The decisions they've made could eventually pan out to work perfectly!
[Edit] I do, however, like the decision to allow marines to buy their own equipment.
<!--quoteo(post=1811228:date=Nov 27 2010, 05:54 PM:name=sgt.ripley)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sgt.ripley @ Nov 27 2010, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOTS OF TEXT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what, despite your somewhat aggressive style, I share your concerns on a lot of points. Unfortunately if UWE want to make NS2 more accessible (and hence make them some money so they can keep making games) than NS1 (which was like running into a brick wall, I enjoyed it but many wouldn't) they are going to have to change the formula a bit. We can't really comment on how it's going to turn out until the games a bit closer to balanced and at the least feature complete. There's lots of new stuff which I think is going to add depth even if some of the changes might remove some...
When it comes down to it, if NS2 doesn't float your boat, I'm sure someone is going to make a classic NS mod, hell if I don't see one being made on the forums within a month or two of v1 I'd be tempted to try to make it!
That said, I still have faith NS2 will be awesome, it's a lot easier seeing how changes might break NS1 gameplay we know than seeing how change might result in new awesome gameplay for NS2.
I have to say I agree that nobody can for sure say whether or not the drastic changes in NS2 will work or not as it has yet to be proven a success or failure. Speaking on what I have seen and experienced thus far though I have to say I do not enjoy the changes with the alien commander. Having multiple marine commanders, lacking gorge abilities, lacking ability to build structures on both sides, fixed position hive spawn and being able to instantly drop another at the beginning of a round seriously turn me off from NS2.
Now I <b>personally</b> have not had any fun in NS2 yet, the game simply does not have the same level of immersion NS1 did and you can point your finger at a number of different things as the culprit but it all starts with the commander/marine relationship on the human team, and aliens relying on the gorge on aliens. I like the idea of the alien commander, just now how it is currently implemented. Right now NS2 I guess if I could summarize my opinion of the game play in a short sentence I would say that NS2 seems like a marriage between NS1 classic and NS1 combat mode. This I am pretty sure is intentional to make the game more accessible to new players but I think it is a horrible idea and I will explain why.
NS1 classic players who hated combat hated it for obvious reasons, there was no sense of team play or strategy, just 2 opposing forces colliding as individuals and you pretty much controlled your own upgrades. NS1 combat players who did not like classic mode thought it was too slow of a game, not enough action and too confusing. There were issues with classic mode and combat, so why are they being merged into one? Nobody at UWE would likely admit that is what NS2 is a child of NS1's 2 game types but thats exactly what I see in NS2.
There are problems with NS2 same as there were in NS1, however I don't think NS2 is going to make either type of player happy. You don't get the more hardcore experience classic mode offered, and the combat aspect just is not there (the maps are too big and rules are too different). I wish NS2 was NS1 with updated graphics/physics and had other alternatives to fixing the problems of NS1 instead of completely redesigning it from the ground up. I don't think anyone would disagree NS1 biggest flaw (classic mode) was it was very hard for new players to get into. There are alternate solutions to that problem other than completely restructuring the game, I love NS1 and I want to love NS2 but I just don't see the basics game play elements that originally got me hooked even there yet.
Just being honest here folks, I am not enjoying NS2 for the reasons I stated. I don't expect UWE to change what they are doing, but as a consumer I feel obligated to give my opinion on what I think would make the game better. I don't expect many people to agree with me and I am sorry for going a bit off topic but hey, it's a public forum.
Ok the "stick" will never make it into the game. There just never will be a way to actively punish players by the commander. So forget about that.
However, how can you reward the players for following commander orders? I've read some good suggestions on here about achievements and non-gameplay-altering bits of flair. But what about the most obvious solution -<i><b> tie XP/in-game credits to completing commander orders. </b></i>
So killing things in X radius to attack order nets XP, successfully moving within X radius of move order nets small XP (as long as move order requires min move distance), killing creatures while in radius of defend order OR staying in radius of defend order nets XP over time.
Then remove XP awards for doing things unrelated to orders. This will add some "bureaucracy" to the game - players will not want to do stuff without orders, and the system will have to be polished to prevent useless order/XP farming, but once the sweet spot is found i think it could add a lot of synergy between players and commanders.
<!--quoteo(post=1811781:date=Nov 29 2010, 06:35 PM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Nov 29 2010, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that sounds terrible. seriously. If the players don't follow the commander, they lose. That is punishment/reward enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need to feel these effects short term, not at the end of the game when suddenly you loose and wonder why. Not obeying/obeying the commander should be commended/punished somehow.
It is the psychology of behaviour, and it would help new players to learn faster as well.
This whole system should be built around very high level of communication, otherwise it might as well be a singleplayer rts/fps. Player relationships is what makes on-line gaming exciting.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2010
I'm all for the Dungeon Keeper approach, slap players that do not follow orders or pick them up and put them in prison or in the torture chamber. We do need a mistress for that last one though o.O
<!--quoteo(post=1811784:date=Nov 29 2010, 02:45 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 29 2010, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need to feel these effects short term, not at the end of the game when suddenly you loose and wonder why. Not obeying/obeying the commander should be commended/punished somehow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree on the short term, but direct punishment is a bad idea. Rewards for following orders should be enough of a carrot. Even if only XP that goes towards a "rank" like PFC, Sergeant, Corporal, etc.
The thing about NS1, was that the relationship between marines and players was based upon:
I place stuff, you build it = win.
That was the goal, players understand (only over time mind you) that this is the case.
NS2 - I know marines can build, but not only is there no 'tool' for doing so, but neither is there an indication that you should, especially as you see bots building - has no sure fire way that results in mini goals for players that in turn gives a clear reward.
If there were rewards (there are more creative ways than just res/weapons... also mini upgrades to do with commander relationship possibly, or speed, r.o.f, vents are highlighted, etc) for completing tasks for the commander or for working as a squad, it would really help to inforce a sense of purpose, team work and communication in players.
This is what this game has a huge opportunity to do, and it would be much more exciting to see these sort of things implemented. Especially as how 'nuggety and treasure trove' getting these rewards may be.
"Ahhhh coool! My visor hologram has been improved and now I can see my team mates through the walls, and all the vents in a room!"
or
"Hey... I can run a bit faster than everyone else now, and can jump a little higher"
or
"When I ask for med packs, the commander always give them to me because I do the job, work as a squad - and alerts relating to my relationship with him are made more prominent to him because I am doing so"
Stuff that adds to the game, that you do not really know is happening for the reasons of controlling players.
The thing about using the reward method to control players is that such a method also needs to test commander skill. It would also preferably be done in such a way that it's removed from human bias aspect of commanding, i.e. less "This guy is on my friends list, he's getting upgrades." and more, "The game recognizes that this squad is completing its objectives so they are automatically given some boosts." kind of deal.
I've been thinking about it and I think orders are the best tool to use to get that kind of system in place. For example, imagine that for move orders a squad or marine is given a speed boost when moving toward his target, or that with a defend order a squad is given more armor while near whatever they're defending.
Such a system allows for short-term rewards, is non-griefable, doesn't allow unfair commander bias, and also adds another skill aspect to the commander. A commander who can manage his marines as well as his buildings would be giving his team an overall boost but one who couldn't wouldn't be gimping his team or anything.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i really don't like the idea. For example now if you want to you can command your team with the microphone. With such a system you would HAVE to give orders so that your players gain XP.
Seriously, it's a bad idea even if i understand the problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there were rewards (there are more creative ways than just res/weapons... also mini upgrades to do with commander relationship possibly, or speed, r.o.f, vents are highlighted, etc) for completing tasks for the commander or for working as a squad, it would really help to inforce a sense of purpose, team work and communication in players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea being that they are automatically awarded when said task/objective/whatever is set by the commander and the completed. Sustained compliance would give rise to things such as you being given higher status to the commander.
Not only does that say to the commander 'here is a player that is doing well for the team, support him more'.. but also it encourages other players to do similar, and boosts the idea of squad/team play and communicating with comm/players.
Smart - but fairly cheap code wise - points at which this sort of thing could be implemented.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i forgot to mention.
It would probably also lead to situations where one team is trapped in its base and the commander will give "useless" tasks in the hope that the gained XP for his soldiers will help him to break out.
<!--quoteo(post=1811837:date=Nov 30 2010, 12:29 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Nov 30 2010, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i really don't like the idea. For example now if you want to you can command your team with the microphone. With such a system you would HAVE to give orders so that your players gain XP.
Seriously, it's a bad idea even if i understand the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the point of way points and squads then. It just supports those ideas - or should be made to.
If you water down the commanding role rather than making it smart, you might as well remove it from the game.
But the suggestion is that these are more 'minor' upgrades, not major ones... like a new weapon for instance.
If players run around gunning, they will not be punished.. they will just see other players better supported/slightly faster r.o.f/etc... and at what point is not encouraging players to take up a more team based role not a good thing?
Also you can not on a microphone say - go here, do this. You need viewable and physical things to relate to that communication. Use of the mic is (imo) probably one of the most important thing to do as a comm, but you need something that is both supports public and pro play.
I'm not saying this is the 'right' answer, or that it would work. But I think something like this needs to be done...
Comments
yes! i remember a disucssion about whether this would be possible in the old American Natural Selection League forums (or nsmod.org, I forget). you're totally right, a marine control board on the bottom would make squad organizing easier and general awareness more accessible than the old formula of hovering over each individual.
They could be grouped by squad. Their portrait's color would indicate health. All the information needed could be displayed efficiently and all the time.
Using the current state of the beta is a really bad example. Rockdown (which was just an engine test map) is so small, you can run back to the armoury within seconds to replenish ammo and weapons. The flamethrower and GL are so overpowered at the moment, the marine doesn't require any commander input because he is so powerful with just one of these weapons. The need for strategy and communication completely breaks down due to the size of the map and the overpowered weapons. Then let's not forget the fact that many people's playing experiences are being compromised by lag and low framerate.
@SwampRat
Great idea.
If things are not working really at a good level on a small map with linear play, how will they work on larger maps with X number of outcomes.
I need to click on the bar => he gets highlighted on the field => Now i know the position of him => next step, i need to select the commandstation => drop a medpack.
With rings all i have to do is drop a medpack on or in front of the guy with low health - because i know instantly which one it is.
???<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok this is Sgt. Ripley from beta days and onwards of NS1. I missed the alpha release and thought, well people will make sure this turns out well. Reading the forums now, I AM IN SHOCK.. and I been spending 2 hours ot just clam down so I don't just go on a rant on these mother... ok taking a deep breath. I will post a rant in a bit.. I am not testing but was about ot pay the beta test but NO WAY IFTHIS HAS BECOME RETARDED.
In the meantime, a commander in real life, would *not* now which soldier needs the medpack automatically, just like in a rl lbattle if he could indeed 'zap' a medpack, he'd drop it. If a soldier is at full dropping it on him diodnt use ot work. rings helped you decide. but also a comm request + spacebar would do the trick.
Just saying, some things should not always be 'easy to allow' as part of the 'chaos of war'.
Seriously:
ok this is right now from an im to my ex:
ye when i playted this i said this is the future of online gaming
[3:55:06 PM] silentantarctica: fps
[3:55:10 PM] silentantarctica: it was about TEAMWORK
[3:55:13 PM] silentantarctica: and not just individual skill
[3:55:18 PM] silentantarctica: no matter how good your rine is at firing
[3:55:32 PM] silentantarctica: his best asset wouldnt be some solo rush vs ellenty billion aliens
[3:55:39 PM] silentantarctica: no, it was him covering your arse as you welded him
[3:55:40 PM] silentantarctica: or a vent
[3:55:44 PM] silentantarctica: or built a turret
[3:55:47 PM] silentantarctica: etc etc
[3:56:09 PM] silentantarctica: it was how fast your commander dropped u med packs and ammo when u r in the hive screaming OMG WE NEED AMMMMOOO AND HELTH NOOOOWW NOOOW NOWWW COM!!
[3:56:36 PM] silentantarctica: it was the rine being told by commander to weld those 3 ###### in heavy armour as they wen tdown to take out the 3 fades who were terrorising and destroying the east base PG and TF, it was the comm which when rines would be a bit unruly, would go MOVE SOLDIER. -YES, SIR!-
[3:57:03 PM] silentantarctica: it was the pack of skulks who just mindlessly had to keep getting shot down ,blown up of mines to get at the TF say, respawning and kept being screamed at DONT STOP THE ATTACK WE NEED OT KILL THAT TURRET FACTYORY NOW NOW NOW.. goooo
[3:57:09 PM] silentantarctica: THATS what this game was about
[3:57:47 PM] silentantarctica: 30 mins- 2hrs of pure onslaught of WAR.. teams battling it out with the odd individual sneaking up and doing small missions of intelligence or sabotage whilst the onslaughts were ongoing
tech rushes, HA trains, Siege attacks, jp+sg rush, GL clearance, OC spams, and I swear to God, if FATTY (the gorge) loses his meaning, WTF IS THE POINT OF this game any longer? kill fatty\? Christ I wanna see the GENIUS who comes up with the alternative solutions! As they better be well integrated into the various things of this game which made it sooo intricate. the fps peeps which werent yet sdo good, always coudl og out and do S&D (search and destroy), or even HP (hold position), the ones who knew the game better / comms could send eaisly ocmmands and receive, and there were so many layers of various sting operations by lerks, rines, skulks, fatty's , comms, fades and what not, to make the game a truly unioque battle experience.
But with all the e-cool childish brats online who would come ot ns, would quickly realise how poinltess that was, and learned to play teams..and loved it, and hey quickly became quite nice.
I just read the forums now of things I can not even believe. If this game is going down the drain just for yrs of making cute graphics.. is liketurning a massive future game into nothing but a bimbo marilyn monroe with no brains adn ended up in THATS RIGHT.. SUICIDE. Hell, put brains in the bimbo, and hell, we'll marryher. SO GET A FRAKKING GRIP.. jesus!
I'll come back in some days when I have clamed down as of right now, I 'd order in my rines with grenade launchers and sg's and blow the ns team out of space!
gvh dgkchg zxdh igh zoyid 78 zdfh bz
[3:57:50 PM] silentantarctica: sigh
[3:58:04 PM] silentantarctica: reading the forums now im SHOCKED on how everythign seems ot have fallen apart
seriously, you should find somebody to talk about your problems...
I for one think ns2 goes in the absolute right direction :) we just had the first beta build (+ it's bugfix), many features are missing.
Pisatchio.. yes and so the game lasted anythign form 5-15 mins... then new map load, new com, hey one of the geezers who knows how.. or who has seen someone how has and gave it a go, little by little we all got better... but most of all, team play developed.. and which games were the best? the SICK ones which both teams were teamplaying their arses off!
And man how it rocked. To get rid of com + players , Fatty + players is like hey, I am too stupid to learn, I will sing the national anthem to my flag.
I am so disillusioned now, I am so happy I didn't just go beta without coming to forum. I wonder how you get a refund.
Seriously, go and get 1000 other fps out there. why ruin this game SIGH.
Well, I have my old ns 1.02 files, but will go the ns v3.x too if it's played. If this really has goen down the drain, I hope the devs get their money for their nice gfx and their life karma for their loyalty to ideals.
Sorry, I am aware I am just in fury.. but I read the first posts about com and gorges, a friend asked me of that 'fantastic best game ever' I used to talk about.. and I will calm down... I am trrying now.. really, but just can't. I am seeing red, as the proverbial bull would say :)
Yes Zuriki.. to read what you say about the com, just makes me go .. "Oh, this is not like that game NS I know. It's awesome.. try it sometime!".
I don't believe it. And what happened to the game which allowed for (many who point out if they were not so good in one or other role), they would happily do the minor roles as they learned how important they were/are too? (dropping stuff as a fatty but not becoming one since it would hog team res [back then], or being the guy with the welder behind the 3 guys in HA/HMG). Why, because we liked to be PART of a UNIT, a team. This is truly ALIENS vs HUMANS in a totally different way. I beg to ask you to rememebr how it was when we were in the waiting room and when cs people would show up... 'AH' .. typical a certian way (I was myself a cs player ) but as you learned ns, you became a TEAM player. Sure, I had more than enough freedom to go solo just as much as I wanted. But when a battle first evolved , becming epic.. people joined in and were happily involved.
I as a noob com, on eclipse, had learned enough but had never finished off an alien team before, we played a 2 hour game with me as com! The players thought it was the most epic ever!
Now , I was retarded and didn't know to finish them off when we had 2 hives, HA/HMGs all over the place, but I DIDNT COMM my dsoldiers in a directed attack, they just went rambo... we though it would finish them off... a fatty hid in the CC? (the middle one) in the vents building up a massive chamber I failed to see in scans... before we knew it we lost a hive and had to rebuild.. the tide turned and they had us on our knees but then some of my sergeants (team-leading experienced soldiers) took the typical smart arse solutions and we rebuffed them.... AND AGAIN we re-conquered,, all the way to almost doing them till again I just gave them GL's and thought they would finish it off but they didnt.. they trusted ME... but the point was, since it was SO ENGULFING, everyone worked as a team.. and afterwards both sides thougth it to be so epic (given my end game noobiness), we ranted abt it for ages.. as 'we were sure you would have us then' when 'you guys did that' when 'we did that' it was all about WE AND YOU.. TEAMS.
In those 2 hrs, you dont think everyone was high on adrenaline on rambo missions in between?
And now what? what is it this game is? some hanky panky lightinig and lets shooot aliens and rines? PLEAASEEE , go and buy the 2000 other fps games.
Or else THINK OUT OF THE BOX... STAY TRUE TO YOUR OCNCEPT which proved to be awesome. Spare us the idiocy of being mindless drones or change jobs (thisis not to you poster but to the devs ^^)
TO Azraniel: Sure, YOu deal with mine, I will deal with yours? WIll even out.. mine are less but I'll be better than you, so we will end up finishing at about same time and even have a coffee afterwards, all refreshed eh! :)
Coming on here and shouting a lot, calling everything retarded and writing lines and lines of text that is abusive and not very concise is not a good start.
As for the comments from Zuriki about the comm not having enough to do, I think he has too much to do (but mainly because of bogged down interface). Which is exactly why you do not have enough time to be on the front line helping out. Also way points have no incentive, or commands of any sort. Another problem. You do notice that you get more of a response over the mic or through text, which is why this should culminate in a unique interface.
Given - later in the game there is a lot less to do. But at the start, you have to be constantly building, thinking about sentry placement, etc... if player commanding is given more priority, things will get worse because it will take up even more time. You also have to micro manage repair or power nodes, etc. This is why some areas need to be dumbed down imo (supply) and others increased (way points/auto rewards).
No one wants this to be some sort of sit back and chill command interface. But for the commander to be the commander I think everyone wishes he was, you need to divide his role into different areas, set aside X% of the time for doing each task (building/repair/strategy/way points) and create ways of plusing/minusing times from these areas to create a balance.
Giving a player list (as has been discussed) with all its features, would be a way of doing this for example.
I'm sorry, I have to disagree, if only to defend my point. Firstly, yes, you do have a lot to do at the start. Expansion, sentries, res claiming. But after the initial expansion is over and all you're doing is upgrading existing structures - there is nothing to do. I can help out on the frontlines, but my problem is finding the troops. That and med/ammo dropping is pretty boring work - and attempting to give commands to your troops (either via waypoints or via text/mic) usually does not fruition into team-work. You just get ignored.
:)
In conclusion, the commander is not a fun role to play, and fun should be a priority in any game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're typing essays about why being the commander sucks but the game isn't even finished yet. The game has only become playable for some people in the most recent patch. If you find when you're commanding a 15v15, controlling a mobile siege tank on one front, spamming med and catpacks on the other, and continually upgrading everything available is too little and boring then come back and say it sucks. If you find that commanding a 4v4 on a barely playable server with less than half the tech tree implemented is too boring then maybe hold off a little bit.
I'm all for suggestions, and I know that's what forums are for, but people don't want to give anything time to see how it works in the actual game environment or they want to rush to conclusions based off incredibly small amounts of information and experience.
Beta. To test it better we have loads of resources at start. Is not balanced. There are tons of features still not implemented.
Once all this is added, balanced and the final stage has arrived we can discuss.
If things are not working really at a good level on a small map with linear play, how will they work on larger maps with X number of outcomes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just explained how...
Because Rockdown is such a simple map, because weapons like the GL and the Flamethrower are so overpowered, and because few people are playing seriously, the need for the commander is diminished. Bigger, more complex maps, balanced weapons, and a complete feature set will facilitate the need for greater commander input.
I guess i should have backed up the "lack of a dedicated comm" comment with "at this stage of the game". I fully understand (and hope) that in later builds they will balance out the res flow and timeline of the game.
But i stand by what i said about the tether being broken, and disagree that it's a pointless observation. The res flow issue can be easily solved, however the MACs vs. Players issue is entirely different. Sure, everything is <i>subject</i> to change up until the final release, but something like this is a massive design change they've chosen to make, and the effect- even in this stage of beta, is a negative one.
That being said, it <i>is</i> still beta, who knows what they'll change/add/improve. The decisions they've made could eventually pan out to work perfectly!
[Edit] I do, however, like the decision to allow marines to buy their own equipment.
You know what, despite your somewhat aggressive style, I share your concerns on a lot of points. Unfortunately if UWE want to make NS2 more accessible (and hence make them some money so they can keep making games) than NS1 (which was like running into a brick wall, I enjoyed it but many wouldn't) they are going to have to change the formula a bit. We can't really comment on how it's going to turn out until the games a bit closer to balanced and at the least feature complete. There's lots of new stuff which I think is going to add depth even if some of the changes might remove some...
When it comes down to it, if NS2 doesn't float your boat, I'm sure someone is going to make a classic NS mod, hell if I don't see one being made on the forums within a month or two of v1 I'd be tempted to try to make it!
That said, I still have faith NS2 will be awesome, it's a lot easier seeing how changes might break NS1 gameplay we know than seeing how change might result in new awesome gameplay for NS2.
Now I <b>personally</b> have not had any fun in NS2 yet, the game simply does not have the same level of immersion NS1 did and you can point your finger at a number of different things as the culprit but it all starts with the commander/marine relationship on the human team, and aliens relying on the gorge on aliens. I like the idea of the alien commander, just now how it is currently implemented. Right now NS2 I guess if I could summarize my opinion of the game play in a short sentence I would say that NS2 seems like a marriage between NS1 classic and NS1 combat mode. This I am pretty sure is intentional to make the game more accessible to new players but I think it is a horrible idea and I will explain why.
NS1 classic players who hated combat hated it for obvious reasons, there was no sense of team play or strategy, just 2 opposing forces colliding as individuals and you pretty much controlled your own upgrades. NS1 combat players who did not like classic mode thought it was too slow of a game, not enough action and too confusing. There were issues with classic mode and combat, so why are they being merged into one? Nobody at UWE would likely admit that is what NS2 is a child of NS1's 2 game types but thats exactly what I see in NS2.
There are problems with NS2 same as there were in NS1, however I don't think NS2 is going to make either type of player happy. You don't get the more hardcore experience classic mode offered, and the combat aspect just is not there (the maps are too big and rules are too different). I wish NS2 was NS1 with updated graphics/physics and had other alternatives to fixing the problems of NS1 instead of completely redesigning it from the ground up. I don't think anyone would disagree NS1 biggest flaw (classic mode) was it was very hard for new players to get into. There are alternate solutions to that problem other than completely restructuring the game, I love NS1 and I want to love NS2 but I just don't see the basics game play elements that originally got me hooked even there yet.
Just being honest here folks, I am not enjoying NS2 for the reasons I stated. I don't expect UWE to change what they are doing, but as a consumer I feel obligated to give my opinion on what I think would make the game better. I don't expect many people to agree with me and I am sorry for going a bit off topic but hey, it's a public forum.
However, how can you reward the players for following commander orders? I've read some good suggestions on here about achievements and non-gameplay-altering bits of flair. But what about the most obvious solution -<i><b> tie XP/in-game credits to completing commander orders. </b></i>
So killing things in X radius to attack order nets XP, successfully moving within X radius of move order nets small XP (as long as move order requires min move distance), killing creatures while in radius of defend order OR staying in radius of defend order nets XP over time.
Then remove XP awards for doing things unrelated to orders. This will add some "bureaucracy" to the game - players will not want to do stuff without orders, and the system will have to be polished to prevent useless order/XP farming, but once the sweet spot is found i think it could add a lot of synergy between players and commanders.
You need to feel these effects short term, not at the end of the game when suddenly you loose and wonder why. Not obeying/obeying the commander should be commended/punished somehow.
It is the psychology of behaviour, and it would help new players to learn faster as well.
This whole system should be built around very high level of communication, otherwise it might as well be a singleplayer rts/fps. Player relationships is what makes on-line gaming exciting.
Agree on the short term, but direct punishment is a bad idea. Rewards for following orders should be enough of a carrot. Even if only XP that goes towards a "rank" like PFC, Sergeant, Corporal, etc.
The thing about NS1, was that the relationship between marines and players was based upon:
I place stuff, you build it = win.
That was the goal, players understand (only over time mind you) that this is the case.
NS2 - I know marines can build, but not only is there no 'tool' for doing so, but neither is there an indication that you should, especially as you see bots building - has no sure fire way that results in mini goals for players that in turn gives a clear reward.
If there were rewards (there are more creative ways than just res/weapons... also mini upgrades to do with commander relationship possibly, or speed, r.o.f, vents are highlighted, etc) for completing tasks for the commander or for working as a squad, it would really help to inforce a sense of purpose, team work and communication in players.
This is what this game has a huge opportunity to do, and it would be much more exciting to see these sort of things implemented. Especially as how 'nuggety and treasure trove' getting these rewards may be.
"Ahhhh coool! My visor hologram has been improved and now I can see my team mates through the walls, and all the vents in a room!"
or
"Hey... I can run a bit faster than everyone else now, and can jump a little higher"
or
"When I ask for med packs, the commander always give them to me because I do the job, work as a squad - and alerts relating to my relationship with him are made more prominent to him because I am doing so"
Stuff that adds to the game, that you do not really know is happening for the reasons of controlling players.
I've been thinking about it and I think orders are the best tool to use to get that kind of system in place. For example, imagine that for move orders a squad or marine is given a speed boost when moving toward his target, or that with a defend order a squad is given more armor while near whatever they're defending.
Such a system allows for short-term rewards, is non-griefable, doesn't allow unfair commander bias, and also adds another skill aspect to the commander. A commander who can manage his marines as well as his buildings would be giving his team an overall boost but one who couldn't wouldn't be gimping his team or anything.
With such a system you would HAVE to give orders so that your players gain XP.
Seriously, it's a bad idea even if i understand the problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there were rewards (there are more creative ways than just res/weapons... also mini upgrades to do with commander relationship possibly, or speed, r.o.f, vents are highlighted, etc) for completing tasks for the commander or for working as a squad, it would really help to inforce a sense of purpose, team work and communication in players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea being that they are automatically awarded when said task/objective/whatever is set by the commander and the completed. Sustained compliance would give rise to things such as you being given higher status to the commander.
Not only does that say to the commander 'here is a player that is doing well for the team, support him more'.. but also it encourages other players to do similar, and boosts the idea of squad/team play and communicating with comm/players.
Smart - but fairly cheap code wise - points at which this sort of thing could be implemented.
It would probably also lead to situations where one team is trapped in its base and the commander will give "useless" tasks in the hope that the gained XP for his soldiers will help him to break out.
With such a system you would HAVE to give orders so that your players gain XP.
Seriously, it's a bad idea even if i understand the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the point of way points and squads then. It just supports those ideas - or should be made to.
If you water down the commanding role rather than making it smart, you might as well remove it from the game.
But the suggestion is that these are more 'minor' upgrades, not major ones... like a new weapon for instance.
If players run around gunning, they will not be punished.. they will just see other players better supported/slightly faster r.o.f/etc... and at what point is not encouraging players to take up a more team based role not a good thing?
Also you can not on a microphone say - go here, do this. You need viewable and physical things to relate to that communication. Use of the mic is (imo) probably one of the most important thing to do as a comm, but you need something that is both supports public and pro play.
I'm not saying this is the 'right' answer, or that it would work. But I think something like this needs to be done...