<!--quoteo(post=1809684:date=Nov 24 2010, 10:24 AM:name=_Thresh_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Thresh_ @ Nov 24 2010, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could the flame thrower be fixed next? i.e. the permanent blind on aliens changed to something else
Biggest thing ruining games now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are incorrect, the biggest problem is certain ape race spamming hydras to the point servers cant handle it.
<!--quoteo(post=1809685:date=Nov 24 2010, 07:26 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Nov 24 2010, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are incorrect, the biggest problem is certain ape race spamming hydras to the point servers cant handle it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Naw, flame throwers are considerably more annoying than the hydra spam.
lol I was just in a game where a flamer ran into a hive... lit up 2 fades who proceeded to bang into walls then be killed.. killed 2 skulks .. all the eggs
then killed the hive.. another flamer was at work on the other hive..
Flamethrowers are almost as bad as grenade launchers. Flamethrowers are really bad though, I really can't take it, fade lerk skulks everyting just gets blinded instantly and permanently until death. This thing has range too, The Biggest problem I've found is that when Playing fade, If I am hiding and blink behidn someone using flamethrower, even though he aims it away form me, I still get blinded.....What am I supposed to do jsut wildly slash at blindness? I jsut played a game where aliens locked down the whole map, had all the hives and upgrades, but 1 marine with flame and a couple riens with lmgs jsut went around the map and took out everything and everyone in their path.... It was ridiculous You couldnt even touch him, He would just spam a little fire blind everyone and then lmgs clean up.
In my personal opinoin, Grenade launchers should not explode immediatley when they hit aliens, or kill in one shot. It is very annoying to just get Insta-killed over and over, even when you are fade...1 guy can stand there without moving or aiming really, and drop a whole alien team, from range, without support or help from comm. There is nothing even close to this on the alien team.
for now fades arent that bad, a simple side step when you hear the blink noise, nullify's the fade's 1-shot wind-up kill move, and with lag the hit registry on the regular attack is not so great.
Eh.. Flame Thrower ain't that bad, you just got to avoid it's spread and kill the marine.
See how simple and asinine game play tip comments are? i KNOW how to kill a Fade.
Also if you can't kill a single flamer marine with 5 fades I would say, it must be their first time ever playing a video game.
And to FlufflyM, record a video of you soloing a GOOD Fade by yourself without a Flamer Thrower. Consistently to since your acting like it's so simple.
Lastly I would like to state that I am not saying to nerf the Fade considering not everything is added into the game yet, but as it stands NOW without the flamer he is over powered (as he should be to balance better just like the Flame Thrower), even if it is slightly.
UWE has enough sense to understand that both will need to be nerfed, this is generally what companies do, they over power new features, and slowly adjust them from their. This way it promotes people using them and they can fine tune it more accordingly with more feed back on it. What bothers me is everything crying Flame Thrower and not the Fade, even though the FT is obviously more OP.
I also played vs Flamethrowers yesterday and with the massive blind effect your only chance is to get into blind rage mode and hope that you hit something you can't see. It's quite frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1809747:date=Nov 24 2010, 10:12 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Nov 24 2010, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh.. Flame Thrower ain't that bad, you just got to avoid it's spread and kill the marine.
See how simple and asinine game play tip comments are? i KNOW how to kill a Fade.
Also if you can't kill a single flamer marine with 5 fades I would say, it must be their first time ever playing a video game.
And to FlufflyM, record a video of you soloing a GOOD Fade by yourself without a Flamer Thrower. Consistently to since your acting like it's so simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue is that currently ANY marine that picks up a flamethrower is able to destroy pretty much all of the alien team. Comparing that to a single marine fighting a GOOD fade makes no sense.
Either way, there's a started task in the dev progress for using a seperate fire effect for first person. Sounds as though that will fix the issue with it blinding aliens and we'd have to see how overpowered it is without it next patch.
In a game based around small complexes and tight corridors, the flamethrower and grenade launcher will always be dominant. I find it hard to dodge either in the small cramped maps so far. I find the GL and FT quite cheap for the amount of sheer power they provide, wonder how UW will balance them, be interesting to see.
<!--quoteo(post=1809747:date=Nov 24 2010, 01:12 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Nov 24 2010, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if you can't kill a single flamer marine with 5 fades I would say, it must be their first time ever playing a video game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about we stab you in the eyes with a pencil, rendering your vision to zero, and then laugh at you that you can't even kill a single gorge. Same thing bro, got nothing to do with skill. Flamed = blind, blind = useless in combat.
Here are the changes I made to the flamer in an attempt to reach some sort of balance, since at the moment it's essentially bugged; What is supposed to be an anti-structure weapons is doing 100 dps, ignoring armor, shooting through walls, and completely blinding enemies. It also instantly hits everything within a 'cone' attached to the front of the weapon, which is much more powerful than bullet ray traces, especially with heavy lag.
<!--quoteo(post=1809572:date=Nov 23 2010, 08:30 PM:name=TheCaptain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheCaptain @ Nov 23 2010, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><blockquote>changed: decrease flamer power against players / initial damage (Flame damage type now acts like 'light' and 'structural', so is most effective against unarmored structures. Damage is halved so the 2x damage vs structures is equal to the old value. As a 'light' weapon, it only does 1/4th damage to armor points, making it ineffective against units with heavy armor like the fade. Flamer damage is still 100dps against buildings and 50dps (mitigated by armor) against players.) </blockquote><blockquote>changed: decrease size of screen obscuration effect (This is just an effect played at your model origin. This uses 'small' burn' instead of 'medium burn' for players so it obscures less of your vision) </blockquote><blockquote>added: chance to put out flames depends on percentage of armor (This follows the assumption that kharra armor will protect the alien from flames, but as that armor gets broken, the flammable bits of the alien become more vulnerable. Heavily armored units with full armor, like the fade, will extinguish in 1-2 seconds. Units which have lost their armor, like structures, may burn for up to 10 seconds or more. This has a neat side effect: since pistols and shotguns hurt armor, you can use a them to take off a fade's armor, then set it on fire more easily.) </blockquote><blockquote>added: fade blink puts out flames (This seems reasonable, as a fade which is reconsitutting somewhere else probably won't include the fire. This should help decrease the debilitation of the fade by fire) </blockquote><blockquote>fixed: Flames are now blocked by walls and other geometry (This uses traces to all 6 faces of the extents of a unit, so that a unit with its center blocked by a wall, but still sticking out on one side, can still be hit by flames) </blockquote><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nerfing the flamethrower damage, nerfing the damage against armor, and letting the fade blink to put out flames seem to help make fades a much harder counter. Structural damage is still the same though, so it can still be used to clear rooms of structures. It still barbeques skulks, but it takes an extra second or two at the very least. With all the changes, it takes about as long to kill a fade with a flamer as it does to use a rifle, instead of approximately 3 seconds as it is now.
Eventually flamers will be brought in line with the rest of the weapons... they're not supposed to be a BFG and I'm sure they'll be changed to reflect their primarily anti-structure role.
<!--quoteo(post=1809747:date=Nov 24 2010, 12:12 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Nov 24 2010, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And to FlufflyM, record a video of you soloing a GOOD Fade by yourself without a Flamer Thrower. Consistently to since your acting like it's so simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would if there were any good fades (not spamming right-click and holding down left-click while wildly swinging the mouse around, which frankly is how I, too, play the class since it's so disorientating). Seriously though, if you can't put down a fade within 6 shotgun-shots (when 3 have the potential of killing a fade) then that should be an indicator of where the problem lies. Now, of course no one has perfect aim but hitting a mere 50% of your shots (with a wide cone of fire and seemingly fixed spread) before you have to reload/switch to pistol is far from perfect. 40% is realistic for non-beginners (to using a mouse as a pointing device), if you're still alive at that point, switch to pistol and finish him off. Also, it's not a 1v1 game, which is why none of this matters.
It is proven possible (in theory, which is all I was pointing out), why should I have to go through the hassle of recording a video because your experience differs?
<!--quoteo(post=1809770:date=Nov 24 2010, 08:50 AM:name=echs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (echs @ Nov 24 2010, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a game based around small complexes and tight corridors, the flamethrower and grenade launcher will always be dominant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Map design will be the deciding factor here, but these test maps are much smaller and more cramped than "real" maps.
a) Armor is calculated wrong atm. 1armor ~ 1hp, should be ~2hp.("~" because there are dmg types) => GL dmg is ok. b) There are dmg types in ns2 - GL should be very good against low armored skulks, lerks and hydras... not so effective against armored like fade, onos, etc... c) Adjust dmg radius... like direct hit = 100% dmg, 1,5-2m away 75%, 2-4m 50%, 4-5m 25%... d) GL MUST get a minimum distance... so it doesn't explode if you shoot at your own feet. If you manage to hit a skulk in close-combat with the unexploded grenade => deadly, but no explosion.
Now the flamethrower a) blind effect must be removed -> this alone makes fade perfect in killing the flamethrower dudes. Blink hit blink blink hit -> dead (since a fade only needs 2fast or 1slow hit to kill a marine) b) the time a player stays on fire could be lowered (skulks leaps in takes a bite, runs away, leaps back ... or jump and run around in circles) Burntime on structures remains the same. c) very effective against Dynamic infestation, structures. d) Lerkgas and needles are very effective too.
ad.b) or the other way around, direct dmg is lowered but dot(damage over time) raised (so u manage to kill the marine but maybe die after it because u burn and no gorge/hive/craig/DI? was nearby.
A lot alien (and marine) structures are still missing => upgrades (Cloak,Carapace,Adrenaline etc.) Res costs and gains will be adjusted => so you'll have to manage res. etc.
There are obvious ways to fix the flamer and grenade launcher issues and I'm sure UWE know about them all, I wouldn't worry too much at the moment folks and as it's been said armour currently counts as 1 hit point instead of two.
<!--quoteo(post=1809747:date=Nov 24 2010, 12:12 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Nov 24 2010, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh.. Flame Thrower ain't that bad, you just got to avoid it's spread and kill the marine.
See how simple and asinine game play tip comments are? i KNOW how to kill a Fade.
Also if you can't kill a single flamer marine with 5 fades I would say, it must be their first time ever playing a video game.
And to FlufflyM, record a video of you soloing a GOOD Fade by yourself without a Flamer Thrower. Consistently to since your acting like it's so simple.
Lastly I would like to state that I am not saying to nerf the Fade considering not everything is added into the game yet, but as it stands NOW without the flamer he is over powered (as he should be to balance better just like the Flame Thrower), even if it is slightly.
UWE has enough sense to understand that both will need to be nerfed, this is generally what companies do, they over power new features, and slowly adjust them from their. This way it promotes people using them and they can fine tune it more accordingly with more feed back on it. What bothers me is everything crying Flame Thrower and not the Fade, even though the FT is obviously more OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is you can't avoid the flame is close combat with a fade or a Skulk, because anyone can totally blind you in a second just by spinning like crazy. Once you are on fire, you are dead. Has a Fade, you might get lucky and kill something in total blindness or you might be able to fade away, but it's really hard to navigate. The difference between beating a Fade and a Flamethrower. One play itself on Skill (with the Fade having a advantage, yes, but thats pretty normal) and one on luck. I'm not saying YOU can't beat one Fade, but I did a few time (with a Shotgun). Now i'm sorry, but i don't have footage of that since i don't record myself while i play (and with the lag, that would make one ###### video). I don't believe the Fades need a nerf. If the GL and the flamer were less powerful, they would probably even themselves. Then again, everything is bound to change, but you can be sure that the Flame and the GL will be nerfed hard.
The point is: a Fade should be hard to kill for a lone marine, but flamer a shouldn't be nearly impossible to defeat for the entire alien team
(And please, try not to go make assumption about people like that, it's insulting and doesn't bring anything on the table)
The flamethrower's blind effect was probably not intended. The following line from the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/progress" target="_blank">Progress</a> page is most likely the fix we are waiting for:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Use separate 1p effect when on fire<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1809774:date=Nov 24 2010, 08:01 AM:name=weep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weep @ Nov 24 2010, 08:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we stab you in the eyes with a pencil, rendering your vision to zero, and then laugh at you that you can't even kill a single gorge. Same thing bro, got nothing to do with skill. Flamed = blind, blind = useless in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to disappoint you but I don't equal 5 people. Considering Fades BLINK and appear BEHIND the Flamer ONE Fade should get behind him, or.. 2-3 of them take another route and flank, it ain't rocket science it's beyond simple.
So...to take down one flamer, We should strike him with 3 or more Fades at the same time, fading in every possible direction in the same time and stab him? That's a lot of effort for one player. You better be perfect too, because if you don't Fade all at the same exact moment, the guy will blind/kill you one by one. Dodging the first Fade hit is not hard, you just need to keep moving. That and guessing where the it will fade is rather easy most of the time.
By the time you flank the flamer, your friend is either dead or useless and by then, the marine is more than ready to kill/blind you. I assure you, i could kill 5 fades in a room with a bit of space to navigate with the flamer.
Comments
Biggest thing ruining games now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are incorrect, the biggest problem is certain ape race spamming hydras to the point servers cant handle it.
Naw, flame throwers are considerably more annoying than the hydra spam.
then killed the hive.. another flamer was at work on the other hive..
flamethrower is pretty much god mode with fire
In my personal opinoin, Grenade launchers should not explode immediatley when they hit aliens, or kill in one shot. It is very annoying to just get Insta-killed over and over, even when you are fade...1 guy can stand there without moving or aiming really, and drop a whole alien team, from range, without support or help from comm. There is nothing even close to this on the alien team.
In the other hand, 5 fades can't kill a guy with a flamethrower
One marine, even.
See how simple and asinine game play tip comments are? i KNOW how to kill a Fade.
Also if you can't kill a single flamer marine with 5 fades I would say, it must be their first time ever playing a video game.
And to FlufflyM, record a video of you soloing a GOOD Fade by yourself without a Flamer Thrower. Consistently to since your acting like it's so simple.
Lastly I would like to state that I am not saying to nerf the Fade considering not everything is added into the game yet, but as it stands NOW without the flamer he is over powered (as he should be to balance better just like the Flame Thrower), even if it is slightly.
UWE has enough sense to understand that both will need to be nerfed, this is generally what companies do, they over power new features, and slowly adjust them from their. This way it promotes people using them and they can fine tune it more accordingly with more feed back on it. What bothers me is everything crying Flame Thrower and not the Fade, even though the FT is obviously more OP.
See how simple and asinine game play tip comments are? i KNOW how to kill a Fade.
Also if you can't kill a single flamer marine with 5 fades I would say, it must be their first time ever playing a video game.
And to FlufflyM, record a video of you soloing a GOOD Fade by yourself without a Flamer Thrower. Consistently to since your acting like it's so simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue is that currently ANY marine that picks up a flamethrower is able to destroy pretty much all of the alien team. Comparing that to a single marine fighting a GOOD fade makes no sense.
Either way, there's a started task in the dev progress for using a seperate fire effect for first person. Sounds as though that will fix the issue with it blinding aliens and we'd have to see how overpowered it is without it next patch.
How about we stab you in the eyes with a pencil, rendering your vision to zero, and then laugh at you that you can't even kill a single gorge. Same thing bro, got nothing to do with skill. Flamed = blind, blind = useless in combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1809572:date=Nov 23 2010, 08:30 PM:name=TheCaptain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheCaptain @ Nov 23 2010, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><blockquote>changed: decrease flamer power against players / initial damage
(Flame damage type now acts like 'light' and 'structural', so is most effective against unarmored structures. Damage is halved so the 2x damage vs structures is equal to the old value. As a 'light' weapon, it only does 1/4th damage to armor points, making it ineffective against units with heavy armor like the fade. Flamer damage is still 100dps against buildings and 50dps (mitigated by armor) against players.)
</blockquote><blockquote>changed: decrease size of screen obscuration effect
(This is just an effect played at your model origin. This uses 'small' burn' instead of 'medium burn' for players so it obscures less of your vision)
</blockquote><blockquote>added: chance to put out flames depends on percentage of armor
(This follows the assumption that kharra armor will protect the alien from flames, but as that armor gets broken, the flammable bits of the alien become more vulnerable. Heavily armored units with full armor, like the fade, will extinguish in 1-2 seconds. Units which have lost their armor, like structures, may burn for up to 10 seconds or more. This has a neat side effect: since pistols and shotguns hurt armor, you can use a them to take off a fade's armor, then set it on fire more easily.)
</blockquote><blockquote>added: fade blink puts out flames
(This seems reasonable, as a fade which is reconsitutting somewhere else probably won't include the fire. This should help decrease the debilitation of the fade by fire)
</blockquote><blockquote>fixed: Flames are now blocked by walls and other geometry
(This uses traces to all 6 faces of the extents of a unit, so that a unit with its center blocked by a wall, but still sticking out on one side, can still be hit by flames)
</blockquote><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nerfing the flamethrower damage, nerfing the damage against armor, and letting the fade blink to put out flames seem to help make fades a much harder counter. Structural damage is still the same though, so it can still be used to clear rooms of structures. It still barbeques skulks, but it takes an extra second or two at the very least. With all the changes, it takes about as long to kill a fade with a flamer as it does to use a rifle, instead of approximately 3 seconds as it is now.
Eventually flamers will be brought in line with the rest of the weapons... they're not supposed to be a BFG and I'm sure they'll be changed to reflect their primarily anti-structure role.
I would if there were any good fades (not spamming right-click and holding down left-click while wildly swinging the mouse around, which frankly is how I, too, play the class since it's so disorientating). Seriously though, if you can't put down a fade within 6 shotgun-shots (when 3 have the potential of killing a fade) then that should be an indicator of where the problem lies. Now, of course no one has perfect aim but hitting a mere 50% of your shots (with a wide cone of fire and seemingly fixed spread) before you have to reload/switch to pistol is far from perfect. 40% is realistic for non-beginners (to using a mouse as a pointing device), if you're still alive at that point, switch to pistol and finish him off. Also, it's not a 1v1 game, which is why none of this matters.
It is proven possible (in theory, which is all I was pointing out), why should I have to go through the hassle of recording a video because your experience differs?
tl;dr: QQ.
Map design will be the deciding factor here, but these test maps are much smaller and more cramped than "real" maps.
b) There are dmg types in ns2 - GL should be very good against low armored skulks, lerks and hydras... not so effective against armored like fade, onos, etc...
c) Adjust dmg radius... like direct hit = 100% dmg, 1,5-2m away 75%, 2-4m 50%, 4-5m 25%...
d) GL MUST get a minimum distance... so it doesn't explode if you shoot at your own feet. If you manage to hit a skulk in close-combat with the unexploded grenade => deadly, but no explosion.
Now the flamethrower
a) blind effect must be removed -> this alone makes fade perfect in killing the flamethrower dudes. Blink hit blink blink hit -> dead (since a fade only needs 2fast or 1slow hit to kill a marine)
b) the time a player stays on fire could be lowered (skulks leaps in takes a bite, runs away, leaps back ... or jump and run around in circles) Burntime on structures remains the same.
c) very effective against Dynamic infestation, structures.
d) Lerkgas and needles are very effective too.
ad.b) or the other way around, direct dmg is lowered but dot(damage over time) raised (so u manage to kill the marine but maybe die after it because u burn and no gorge/hive/craig/DI? was nearby.
A lot alien (and marine) structures are still missing => upgrades (Cloak,Carapace,Adrenaline etc.)
Res costs and gains will be adjusted => so you'll have to manage res.
etc.
DMG is fine.
See how simple and asinine game play tip comments are? i KNOW how to kill a Fade.
Also if you can't kill a single flamer marine with 5 fades I would say, it must be their first time ever playing a video game.
And to FlufflyM, record a video of you soloing a GOOD Fade by yourself without a Flamer Thrower. Consistently to since your acting like it's so simple.
Lastly I would like to state that I am not saying to nerf the Fade considering not everything is added into the game yet, but as it stands NOW without the flamer he is over powered (as he should be to balance better just like the Flame Thrower), even if it is slightly.
UWE has enough sense to understand that both will need to be nerfed, this is generally what companies do, they over power new features, and slowly adjust them from their. This way it promotes people using them and they can fine tune it more accordingly with more feed back on it. What bothers me is everything crying Flame Thrower and not the Fade, even though the FT is obviously more OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is you can't avoid the flame is close combat with a fade or a Skulk, because anyone can totally blind you in a second just by spinning like crazy. Once you are on fire, you are dead. Has a Fade, you might get lucky and kill something in total blindness or you might be able to fade away, but it's really hard to navigate. The difference between beating a Fade and a Flamethrower. One play itself on Skill (with the Fade having a advantage, yes, but thats pretty normal) and one on luck. I'm not saying YOU can't beat one Fade, but I did a few time (with a Shotgun). Now i'm sorry, but i don't have footage of that since i don't record myself while i play (and with the lag, that would make one ###### video). I don't believe the Fades need a nerf. If the GL and the flamer were less powerful, they would probably even themselves. Then again, everything is bound to change, but you can be sure that the Flame and the GL will be nerfed hard.
The point is: a Fade should be hard to kill for a lone marine, but flamer a shouldn't be nearly impossible to defeat for the entire alien team
(And please, try not to go make assumption about people like that, it's insulting and doesn't bring anything on the table)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Use separate 1p effect when on fire<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to disappoint you but I don't equal 5 people. Considering Fades BLINK and appear BEHIND the Flamer ONE Fade should get behind him, or.. 2-3 of them take another route and flank, it ain't rocket science it's beyond simple.
So...to take down one flamer, We should strike him with 3 or more Fades at the same time, fading in every possible direction in the same time and stab him? That's a lot of effort for one player. You better be perfect too, because if you don't Fade all at the same exact moment, the guy will blind/kill you one by one. Dodging the first Fade hit is not hard, you just need to keep moving. That and guessing where the it will fade is rather easy most of the time.
By the time you flank the flamer, your friend is either dead or useless and by then, the marine is more than ready to kill/blind you. I assure you, i could kill 5 fades in a room with a bit of space to navigate with the flamer.