<!--quoteo(post=1809213:date=Nov 23 2010, 04:10 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 23 2010, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think NS had a lot of dynamics on how the teamplay adapted to the situation. Instead of having rigid roles like TF2, NS had a dozen things you could do as a single marine or alien and all depended on the situation. For example instead of having a squad of engineer, medic and soldier, you had a squad of 3 marines with 1 shotgun and a welder in a specific game time with a plenty of factors revolving around time, rescoures, tech and all that. Depending on the situation you might have none or all the guys building, sometimes shotgun was supposed to shoot a node, sometimes cover, sometimes build, sometimes even weld. The same goes for the vast majority of alien play. Instead of having 7 relatively inflexible classes you had a handful of multitools that had to be organised to the most efficient use.
The problem with such system was that a lot of people never understood it to the full. You had to understand the RTS game progress to some extend to be able to make those decisions on your own. Usually people had one mindset for one gun or alien, which then lacked the ability to adapt to the gameplay situation.
Later on public games slowly grew into 32 player bloodbaths where there was no way to control and communicate situations enough and no need to use players efficiently since you basically had a handful of everything everywhere. Also, the alien res model slowed their tech progress down on higher playercounts, which allowed marines to play safe instead of efficient on many situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I pretty much agree with everything you said. Though, if we have a look at NS2 compared to NS1, the welding has been moved to MACs, so that's a Comm thing now. And the "roles" of the marines were still defined by what weapon they have. In NS2 they don't seem to be as much of multitools. But I guess that all comes down to the mix of weapons, weapon upgrades and suit (exo-skelly/JP) you wear too.
I like complexity, though I'm well aware it might frighten some players, which I don't want to happen.
Also, let's not talk so much about public. =p The game should be reasonably balanced in public, but I think the focus should be at the e-sports, where teams are at a set amount (like 6v6). I might be e-sports biased here though.. most players of NS2 will probably be playing mostly public, so of course public balance should have a lot of focus.
<!--quoteo(post=1809214:date=Nov 23 2010, 04:12 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Nov 23 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly Dauntl3ss, I think the 'unlocking' of more powerful lifeforms and weapons (either through tech or time to gather resources) is something that is quite central to the NS experience.
Generally I like the idea of multiple balanced options (and Charlie has said that he's trying to make sure all units and weapons retain a use even in late game) but more for a pure FPS. Whilst you make good points about upgrades for weapons instead of upgrades to access them, I think different states of the same adds an extra layer of complexity that doesn't really add that much depth, and would be very confusing until you learn the game.
UWE are trying to go for accessibility as well as depth and lets face it NS2 is looking pretty complex to jump into as it is! Being 'forced' to learn the rifle marine and skulk as a base line is probably a good thing to get the player to experience the game play. I don't know about you but I feel slightly overwhelmed when starting class based game and only feel comfortable many tens of hours in when I got a reasonable feel of all the different combinations, I don't think that's what they want to go for.
But I'd be perfectly willing to try your version of NS2 and in fact I'd already sketched down a mod concept that was based choosing any weapon as your default and make sure they were all balanced :D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, retaining usefulness is important, and I'm glad they're keeping it that way. I'm gonna have to re-read all the old blog posts though, as I don't feel entirely up to date as to what the plan is.
I'm different then you then:p I recently tried the beta of a game named Bloodline Champions, which is kinda a dota/wow arena mix. 16 different classes, right off the bat! Just like DotA, it has an extremely steep learning curve. But I like that, and I also realize that people are different on that note=)
NS started as a mod, so mayhaps your NS2 mod is the start of something new?=)
<!--quoteo(post=1809215:date=Nov 23 2010, 04:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 23 2010, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A degree of progression is important, choice at the start is not bad, but escalating the game over time lengthens the appeal.
The most obvious comparison for me is empires mod, the game gets boring really fast if you stay at top tier tech for too long, the best games are the ones that run through the tech tree with fighting going on all the way, and finish fairly soon after reaching top tier.
The changing technology keeps the game varied, it's a twist factor that makes the game change constantly, once that is removed the game loses a big part of its variety.
Choice at start = more variety, but removal of progression = less variey, and unfortunately choice at start + progression will usually = overcomplication<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not familiar with the empires mod, sadly. And I think some of you might have misunderstood me. I want both progression and multiple choices. It might make it overcomplicated for some, but for the hardcore gamer it's just a plus. BUT (<- that is a big but!) I do want this game to succeed, with as many as possible playing it, hardcore or not, so if I can have it my way, I would still want it wrapped in a neat little package where the learning curve isn't too steep for players that might get frustrated because they don't get even the basics of the game right away. ^^
It's all about the execution and design, basically.
<!--quoteo(post=1809265:date=Nov 23 2010, 05:46 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 23 2010, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually yes that's what i would feel about such a change. Or to stay with the current example Starcraft2: Most base T1 units stay viable trough the whole game, yes you upgrade them but you also unlock new tiers of units but even with that the base T1 units still have a role and purpose.
Something similiar will probably happen in NS2, you don't just have new Tiers that replace the old ones but upgrades for the old ones so they stay viable. The grenade launcher upgrade is a good example for this, sure you might have miniguns/HMG's at some point maybe even real grenade launchers but you still will have people running around with LMG's that maybe have nerve-gas grenades or something like that.
But one of the most basic reaons for me is pretty simple: It's fun it gives you motivation It's way more fun to know "if we hold this resnode the commander will be able to research jetpacks and i will be able to fly around!" instead of "i started the round with a jetpack when i hold this resnode the commander will be able to research an upgrade so it has 10% more flight time. Yay?"
Tiers give the player something to look forward to to unlock, it's basicly a reward for doing good. Just like leveling up in RPG's gives you access to new talents, or leveling up in call of duty gives you access to new weapons. It's basicly all the same and even TF2 works with that system as you don't start out with all the aviable weapons/hats but you rather have to find/build them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, as I said in the above paragraph, it comes down to design. What if the jetpack you had at the start enabled you to get a fast res tower, which then lead to your jet pack leaving a trail of fire behind it, killing anything that runs throught it? Then it would be awesome, right?! :)
(Not saying marines should start with jetpack, btw, that was just hypothetical :p)
Additional tiers with awesome upgrades should, of course, still be achievable at the later stages in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1809269:date=Nov 23 2010, 05:49 PM:name=TheCaptain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheCaptain @ Nov 23 2010, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It has been stated in dev blogs (eg: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/6/damage_types_in_ns2)" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010...e_types_in_ns2)</a> that the goal is for all weapons and creatures to remain viable throughout the game, which seems similar to the Starcraft model. I have no doubt that some serious balancing balancing and bugfixing will take place to ensure that no weapon or creature is too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for that, I'll be sure to re-read more of the dev blogs. =)
Phew... that was a lot of quotes and replies! I like this discussion we're having though:)
The shotgun and the flamethrower are intended to be upgrades, with their own respective downsides. That makes them something entirely different than the TF2 weapon system, which focuses more on variety of play style while maintaining a level playing field. In NS2, there is progress within the round that needs to be felt and shown. The whole point of advancing to new tech points, controlling resource nozzles, and taking out enemy bases is to prevent the enemy from getting "the big guns", while getting your own.
That is basically the entire RTS aspect of the game we know and love, everything else kinda boils down to shooting and chomping. If you wanted to make the other weapons strictly "sidegrades", you'd lose the sense of progress AND the escalation of combat.
EDIT: To clarify, keeping the full selection of weapons viable throughout a round is very different than just making them sidegrades. The rifle, for example, gets mods like the grenade launcher to directly improve it's effectiveness.
<!--quoteo(post=1809424:date=Nov 23 2010, 09:28 PM:name=Dauntl3ss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dauntl3ss @ Nov 23 2010, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I pretty much agree with everything you said. Though, if we have a look at NS2 compared to NS1, the welding has been moved to MACs, so that's a Comm thing now. And the "roles" of the marines were still defined by what weapon they have. In NS2 they don't seem to be as much of multitools. But I guess that all comes down to the mix of weapons, weapon upgrades and suit (exo-skelly/JP) you wear too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm still not completely sure how MACs are supposed to work in the final product. Myself, I'd like to see them as a comm directed support unit in the squad, not as a direct necessity for building stuff.
So, you'd just have one extra squadmember with different abilities. For example if you wanted to build something on the field, there wouldn't be a particularly designated first builder. Instead of that you'd have MAC either welding, attacking (I think they planned this at some point) or building as a part of the group. At some point it might be good idea to have it welding the marines while the marines build, at other times it would be building with 2 marines while the rest of the squad cover.
Right now the marine building speed seemed to be quite sluggish, so there might be less multitooling indeed.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1809456:date=Nov 23 2010, 02:07 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Nov 23 2010, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The pistol shotgun and lmg seem so weak that i can see why people need to go gl or flamethrower (otherwise marine team looses).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, there is still bad hit registration or cone of fire problems with the shotgun. 6 shotgun blasts into a hydra at point blank should be more than enough to kill it. It's very difficult to kill an alien with anything other than a flamethrower or GL, but that might have more to do with the lag/FPS than anything else.
Comments
The problem with such system was that a lot of people never understood it to the full. You had to understand the RTS game progress to some extend to be able to make those decisions on your own. Usually people had one mindset for one gun or alien, which then lacked the ability to adapt to the gameplay situation.
Later on public games slowly grew into 32 player bloodbaths where there was no way to control and communicate situations enough and no need to use players efficiently since you basically had a handful of everything everywhere. Also, the alien res model slowed their tech progress down on higher playercounts, which allowed marines to play safe instead of efficient on many situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I pretty much agree with everything you said. Though, if we have a look at NS2 compared to NS1, the welding has been moved to MACs, so that's a Comm thing now. And the "roles" of the marines were still defined by what weapon they have. In NS2 they don't seem to be as much of multitools. But I guess that all comes down to the mix of weapons, weapon upgrades and suit (exo-skelly/JP) you wear too.
I like complexity, though I'm well aware it might frighten some players, which I don't want to happen.
Also, let's not talk so much about public. =p The game should be reasonably balanced in public, but I think the focus should be at the e-sports, where teams are at a set amount (like 6v6). I might be e-sports biased here though.. most players of NS2 will probably be playing mostly public, so of course public balance should have a lot of focus.
<!--quoteo(post=1809214:date=Nov 23 2010, 04:12 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Nov 23 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly Dauntl3ss, I think the 'unlocking' of more powerful lifeforms and weapons (either through tech or time to gather resources) is something that is quite central to the NS experience.
Generally I like the idea of multiple balanced options (and Charlie has said that he's trying to make sure all units and weapons retain a use even in late game) but more for a pure FPS. Whilst you make good points about upgrades for weapons instead of upgrades to access them, I think different states of the same adds an extra layer of complexity that doesn't really add that much depth, and would be very confusing until you learn the game.
UWE are trying to go for accessibility as well as depth and lets face it NS2 is looking pretty complex to jump into as it is! Being 'forced' to learn the rifle marine and skulk as a base line is probably a good thing to get the player to experience the game play. I don't know about you but I feel slightly overwhelmed when starting class based game and only feel comfortable many tens of hours in when I got a reasonable feel of all the different combinations, I don't think that's what they want to go for.
But I'd be perfectly willing to try your version of NS2 and in fact I'd already sketched down a mod concept that was based choosing any weapon as your default and make sure they were all balanced :D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, retaining usefulness is important, and I'm glad they're keeping it that way. I'm gonna have to re-read all the old blog posts though, as I don't feel entirely up to date as to what the plan is.
I'm different then you then:p I recently tried the beta of a game named Bloodline Champions, which is kinda a dota/wow arena mix. 16 different classes, right off the bat! Just like DotA, it has an extremely steep learning curve. But I like that, and I also realize that people are different on that note=)
NS started as a mod, so mayhaps your NS2 mod is the start of something new?=)
<!--quoteo(post=1809215:date=Nov 23 2010, 04:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 23 2010, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A degree of progression is important, choice at the start is not bad, but escalating the game over time lengthens the appeal.
The most obvious comparison for me is empires mod, the game gets boring really fast if you stay at top tier tech for too long, the best games are the ones that run through the tech tree with fighting going on all the way, and finish fairly soon after reaching top tier.
The changing technology keeps the game varied, it's a twist factor that makes the game change constantly, once that is removed the game loses a big part of its variety.
Choice at start = more variety, but removal of progression = less variey, and unfortunately choice at start + progression will usually = overcomplication<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not familiar with the empires mod, sadly. And I think some of you might have misunderstood me. I want both progression and multiple choices. It might make it overcomplicated for some, but for the hardcore gamer it's just a plus. BUT (<- that is a big but!) I do want this game to succeed, with as many as possible playing it, hardcore or not, so if I can have it my way, I would still want it wrapped in a neat little package where the learning curve isn't too steep for players that might get frustrated because they don't get even the basics of the game right away. ^^
It's all about the execution and design, basically.
<!--quoteo(post=1809265:date=Nov 23 2010, 05:46 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 23 2010, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually yes that's what i would feel about such a change.
Or to stay with the current example Starcraft2: Most base T1 units stay viable trough the whole game, yes you upgrade them but you also unlock new tiers of units but even with that the base T1 units still have a role and purpose.
Something similiar will probably happen in NS2, you don't just have new Tiers that replace the old ones but upgrades for the old ones so they stay viable. The grenade launcher upgrade is a good example for this, sure you might have miniguns/HMG's at some point maybe even real grenade launchers but you still will have people running around with LMG's that maybe have nerve-gas grenades or something like that.
But one of the most basic reaons for me is pretty simple: It's fun it gives you motivation
It's way more fun to know "if we hold this resnode the commander will be able to research jetpacks and i will be able to fly around!" instead of "i started the round with a jetpack when i hold this resnode the commander will be able to research an upgrade so it has 10% more flight time. Yay?"
Tiers give the player something to look forward to to unlock, it's basicly a reward for doing good. Just like leveling up in RPG's gives you access to new talents, or leveling up in call of duty gives you access to new weapons. It's basicly all the same and even TF2 works with that system as you don't start out with all the aviable weapons/hats but you rather have to find/build them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, as I said in the above paragraph, it comes down to design.
What if the jetpack you had at the start enabled you to get a fast res tower, which then lead to your jet pack leaving a trail of fire behind it, killing anything that runs throught it? Then it would be awesome, right?! :)
(Not saying marines should start with jetpack, btw, that was just hypothetical :p)
Additional tiers with awesome upgrades should, of course, still be achievable at the later stages in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1809269:date=Nov 23 2010, 05:49 PM:name=TheCaptain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheCaptain @ Nov 23 2010, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It has been stated in dev blogs (eg: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/6/damage_types_in_ns2)" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010...e_types_in_ns2)</a> that the goal is for all weapons and creatures to remain viable throughout the game, which seems similar to the Starcraft model. I have no doubt that some serious balancing balancing and bugfixing will take place to ensure that no weapon or creature is too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for that, I'll be sure to re-read more of the dev blogs. =)
Phew... that was a lot of quotes and replies! I like this discussion we're having though:)
That is basically the entire RTS aspect of the game we know and love, everything else kinda boils down to shooting and chomping. If you wanted to make the other weapons strictly "sidegrades", you'd lose the sense of progress AND the escalation of combat.
EDIT: To clarify, keeping the full selection of weapons viable throughout a round is very different than just making them sidegrades. The rifle, for example, gets mods like the grenade launcher to directly improve it's effectiveness.
I'm still not completely sure how MACs are supposed to work in the final product. Myself, I'd like to see them as a comm directed support unit in the squad, not as a direct necessity for building stuff.
So, you'd just have one extra squadmember with different abilities. For example if you wanted to build something on the field, there wouldn't be a particularly designated first builder. Instead of that you'd have MAC either welding, attacking (I think they planned this at some point) or building as a part of the group. At some point it might be good idea to have it welding the marines while the marines build, at other times it would be building with 2 marines while the rest of the squad cover.
Right now the marine building speed seemed to be quite sluggish, so there might be less multitooling indeed.
Yeah, there is still bad hit registration or cone of fire problems with the shotgun. 6 shotgun blasts into a hydra at point blank should be more than enough to kill it. It's very difficult to kill an alien with anything other than a flamethrower or GL, but that might have more to do with the lag/FPS than anything else.