<!--quoteo(post=1808175:date=Nov 21 2010, 09:30 PM:name=deathshroud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathshroud @ Nov 21 2010, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the marines should get that repair gun from ns1, so they can help construct structures early on in the game. Gives the mariens something to do other than kill skulks and gives the commander a reason to give orders to marines (help build) early on. Will also need it for repairing armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually , marines can already build structures that were started by a MAC. It's fairly slow , however. It's true that marines need something to repair armor on the field.
<!--quoteo(post=1808178:date=Nov 21 2010, 09:35 PM:name=Arcadian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arcadian @ Nov 21 2010, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Should suggestions be made for the balance this early? The gameplays balance could be compared to a scale that doesn't have all the weights yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can compare what we see with NS1 gameplay. Some elements of NS2 are clearly broken , you can't refade 3 times per minute with just 1 res node in NS1 , nor can you drop 2 hives simultaneously at game start. Resources are basically irrelevant at the moment.
<!--quoteo(post=1808068:date=Nov 21 2010, 11:37 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 21 2010, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->friendly fire should be an option for admins, but standard off (like in ns1). otherwise, well it has been said before...
and about res: i also noticed that resources are not important at all. you have always too much to spend them all.
about macs again: in my last game i had a problem with macs (as commander): i could not expand at all, my initial macs got destroyed, i had no energy and team was screaming "comm, do something!?!?!" macs / drifters should be really made optional, <b>i prefer to rely on my team building something rather than rely on that they protect my macs / drifters.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
apprently (so the text help says) they can build it or help to
Obvious imbalances are obvious and will be fixed. Oh, and we're not feature complete....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
with a ton of bug reports and low pop servers at this time umm what else do you want us to post qq threads on server stability lets be constructive here its never to early and they devs dont have to do this they can just notch done some ideas that they like and implement them later
Obvious imbalances are obvious and will be fixed. Oh, and we're not feature complete....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
some things which are obvious may be missed by the devs, so pointing that out again will hurt nobody.
and yes, we are feature imcomplete, but (maybe im wrong) Tier 1 is complete on both sides, so we can already discuss the basic stuff. stuff like lerk sniper shot, shotgun accuracy, LMG dmg, turret dmg should be discussed. you are for example not able to kill a structure next to a crag with an LMG only, that is poor and annoying (maybe lower the healing interval of the crag). its ok if it takes time (like 20 seconds as lonely marine), but we learned from early stages in NS1 that too strong static defense is annoying. Basically I just want to discuss the numbers, and which values (from our point of view) should be changed.
besides that, the biggest problem is that it hasnt been decided how strong every weapon / lifeform etc should be, we have no adequate resource costs. everything seems to be for free
why dont they get rid of lerk snipe and make the spikes alternate fire and bite main fire
lerk biting was AWESOME back in the day and with focus a powerful combo
oh i read some where bout lerk flying being bad whats bad you can fly side was and do strafe runs..... its mostly because of the physic engine at the moment
Separate note
i will have to disagree on the sentry's being useless down a long hallway there a ###### for any lerk or skulk anything bigger well they can storm past anyway, and with a good set up in a base with sentries covering sentries blind spot i think it could work at but yeh increase the range from 90 to 100-120.
and i just posted this idea sentry arc guidelines so we have 2 lines going to the circle that surrounds the sentry's (its range) showing where it can shoot
I also agree it may be a bit early to be concerned with balance. Not all the pieces are there yet.
As far as having too many resources, right now it's kind of nice, because when new features are added it takes very little time to see, or use them in game. It's easy to showcase what's being added. When everything is in place before launch it will be a simple matter of scaling back resource production, and/or tweaking the numbers for cost.
Someone said resources are irrelevant right now, and I agree. But I believe that's on purpose, so that we can actually get stuff and test without having to wait too much. I'm sure tweaking that is on the list.
<!--quoteo(post=1808308:date=Nov 21 2010, 07:35 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 21 2010, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone said resources are irrelevant right now, and I agree. But I believe that's on purpose, so that we can actually get stuff and test without having to wait too much. I'm sure tweaking that is on the list.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well that make sense lol man i should have realized oh well thanks for clearing that up
Please don't let every marine buy his own weapons. Plz not. I mean, every commander knows when to drop weapons. You know, a Fade comes up and you ask the commander for some shotguns, it's cool the way it was in NS1. It's the commander's decision when to use what kinds of weapons. Plus i like the communication with the commander about this stuff. It's team play. Like "I want a SG!" - "No res, ###### off". Or "Okay, but don't lose it!".
Or from the Alien side, when people say "HMGs Up!!", we will never hear this again. With the new system it will be like "SaperioN has a SG!!" - "Oh, what a wonder". Plus the pro players will always be way too strong.
Sorry for the bad english, but I think u know what i mean.
I think the new system: "every marine has his own money" is much better! in NS1 I often met commanders, which gave weapons only to specific players, friends, good player, what ever. new players often didn't have the chance to get good stuff!
the new system doesn't affect competive play, because here you still have to arrange with your team, whether to save or spend your money
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->from the Alien side, when people say "HMGs Up!!", we will never hear this again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last time i played ns2 closed beta i heard aliens saying "Flamethrowers! OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG" :X
I think marines, as part of being the versatile race, should be able to build structures, but at a much slower pace compared to the mac. This would allow marines the ability to sacrifice fire power and movement when a mac dies, and they're in a bind. But in the long run the Mac would still be crucial.
However, the aliens should still rely on the drifters for the main upgrade structures, but at the same time gorges need more building options other than the hydra alone. This way aliens also have an option, be it a weaker option compared to a drifter structure, when they're in a tight spot and either their drifter dies or they are out of them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think marines, as part of being the versatile race, should be able to build structures, but at a much slower pace compared to the mac.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They already can... >_>
The gorge in general is only good for 1 thing: Sliding on it's belly and drawing enemy fire. These things are hard as hell to hit when they're ice skating.
I'm working on a small balance mod which should address some of these concerns (and some bugs as well). I should be able to upload it later tonight after some testing, and after checking it against 156 when that goes live.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited November 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1808883:date=Nov 22 2010, 10:47 PM:name=TheCaptain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheCaptain @ Nov 22 2010, 10:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm working on a small balance mod which should address some of these concerns (and some bugs as well). I should be able to upload it later tonight after some testing, and after checking it against 156 when that goes live.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
good idea, here a few things i noticed in 156
<b>shotgun:</b> im not sure about shot-gun, didnt play it in 156, but in 155 was the bullet spread little bit too high, dmg seems ok. it felt just right in ns1, but in ns2 its a little bit too much (for example, you cannot kill a whip with shotgun, only very slowly)
<b>Flamethrower:</b> flame thrower damage is not ok. 1 "shot" kills a skulk instantly. that should be the job of the shotgun or grenade launcher. as a fade you survive a few shots, but the blind effect gets you owned (dying being blind reminds me of getting devoured in NS1, what you removed by reason)
<b>Grenade launcher:</b> as mentioned in other threads the spam currently is not ok. i guess this will anyway be adressed by adjusting resource costs, and if players (in a resource balanced game) can affort 10 grenade launchers marines should have won already anyway, or its in late game stage and they are facing onoses and might fail with that strategy...
if a grenade explodes right next to you, well of course a skulk should die, but you also die as a skulk if the grenade just explodes in the same room, what kinda sucks. similar for lerk / gorge edit: just to mention it also here
<!--quoteo(post=1809127:date=Nov 23 2010, 07:35 AM:name=TheCaptain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheCaptain @ Nov 23 2010, 07:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Fixed nades would do structural damage (300 to structures, 150 to players), bounce on contact with non players instead of exploding on contact like in NS1 (but explode when hitting players or structures), and do squared falloff damage so units at 5m would have a better chance of survival. This keeps them in their role of killing structures and groups of units, and less of an 'I win' button.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my oppinion the Crag should either be moved to tier 2 and/or lowered in HP. A set of a whip, one or two hydras and one or two crags is quiet easy to build but impossible to destroy with anything else then grenades. Even "sniping" the crags does not really work or simply takes too long. Only thing I kinda see is Alien offensive turtling. If Marines don't get to T2 its gg.
I really think crags need to be more vulnerable. I saw them as a support structure that kept other things alive... and then I found out they're impossible to kill early on. I think buildings need to have some sort of inherent weakness so that placement is key to them being effective. For example the whips have a range on them. I think crags should need to be tucked away or out of LOS.
<!--quoteo(post=1808883:date=Nov 23 2010, 03:47 AM:name=TheCaptain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheCaptain @ Nov 23 2010, 03:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm working on a small balance mod which should address some of these concerns (and some bugs as well). I should be able to upload it later tonight after some testing, and after checking it against 156 when that goes live.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, don't do that! publishing it would be the worst thing to do, tearing the community apart. If you want to do something like this, write together some balance changes (upload the modified files in a seperate thread), so that UWE could use them, if they approve of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1809318:date=Nov 23 2010, 01:21 PM:name=Arakash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arakash @ Nov 23 2010, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, don't do that! publishing it would be the worst thing to do, tearing the community apart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's the problem? Do you think people are going to split between vanilla and modded servers because some will want to play a "pure" version of the game or do you think we'll have to modify the client files and thus would not be able to join vanilla servers anymore?
If its the latter, can't these changes be done entirely on the server?
Marines: -At this point in the build, the Grenade Launcher is too useful compared to the basic hitscan weapons, mostly because people suffer from network issues while the grenade launcher negates the trouble of finding the hitbox, it can be shot at your feet for no damage, and it will take out everything except for a level 3 armor Fade. It would work well if it was against grouped or armored targets, and against buildings (which is now mentioned in the progress page). -Flamethrower is just frustrating when you get tagged and you go completely blind. The initial damage is very high, toasting away 100hp in a second, not counting the time spent on fire. While on this point, I think a good way of countering mass crags would be to make it so that if a flamethrower is used on the crag, the healing gas is stalled while it writhes in the fire.
Gorge: -Unlimited amounts of Hydras, at least for how much they cost, is not good. I think having a cap for them that increases by obtaining certain objectives (extra hives, upgrades) would decrease the need for saturating an area with Hydras and would be properly used as a static support weapon in strategic places.
Lerk: -The Snipe ability needs to cost more energy or needs a higher cooldown. It seems to have a proper damage scale, but should be used less often and offer a higher risk:reward for the player. Could do slightly less damage on body shots, and devastating damage on head shots. -The gas needs to be on a longer cooldown. Seems to be used more often than the regular attack, because of it's effective area and how often it can be used without using much energy. I'm not sure if gas stacks, but if it does, that would explain why I turned around to a wall of solid off-white sprites and died instantly.
<!--quoteo(post=1809429:date=Nov 23 2010, 12:31 PM:name=eisiger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eisiger @ Nov 23 2010, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines: -At this point in the build, the Grenade Launcher is too useful compared to the basic hitscan weapons, mostly because people suffer from network issues while the grenade launcher negates the trouble of finding the hitbox, it can be shot at your feet for no damage, and it will take out everything except for a level 3 armor Fade. It would work well if it was against grouped or armored targets, and against buildings (which is now mentioned in the progress page). -Flamethrower is just frustrating when you get tagged and you go completely blind. The initial damage is very high, toasting away 100hp in a second, not counting the time spent on fire. While on this point, I think a good way of countering mass crags would be to make it so that if a flamethrower is used on the crag, the healing gas is stalled while it writhes in the fire.
Gorge: -Unlimited amounts of Hydras, at least for how much they cost, is not good. I think having a cap for them that increases by obtaining certain objectives (extra hives, upgrades) would decrease the need for saturating an area with Hydras and would be properly used as a static support weapon in strategic places.
Lerk: -The Snipe ability needs to cost more energy or needs a higher cooldown. It seems to have a proper damage scale, but should be used less often and offer a higher risk:reward for the player. Could do slightly less damage on body shots, and devastating damage on head shots. -The gas needs to be on a longer cooldown. Seems to be used more often than the regular attack, because of it's effective area and how often it can be used without using much energy. I'm not sure if gas stacks, but if it does, that would explain why I turned around to a wall of solid off-white sprites and died instantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed.
And now most of use can actually play and test pseudo-balance!
After some rounds I think the problem we have is a tier1 to tier2 transition problem.
If Marines get to T2 Aliens are f*cked. If Marines are denied T2, they are f*cked.
Reason for this:
- Grenade Launcher and Flamethrower too strong if they are out, I think this has been mentioned enough. - Marines have no way to fight structures without T2, but Aliens can pump structures out right from T1
Therefore:
- Something has to be done about the Crag. Its healing is insane and so is its health - Hydras are a _way_ better defense then sentries are and thats kinda odd I think. They have no fire arc, are not reliant on power (might change with DI?) and can take quiet a punch, are even a match for two marines, mainly because they are found in groups. And also they dont seem to have friendly fire as sentries have (?) - If not weakening the alien structures, Marines need a T1 possibility to fight groups of building. (Handgrenades maybe?)
So I think in the end in T1 something has to be done about alien buildings which carry to much punch for T1 (Upgrades possibly? Techtree position and abilities of the Crag) and the Marine T2 being to strong which is a simple nerf. I think with those two addressed we can start going at least a little bit deeper into balance discussions.
PS: In this discussion it would be helpfull if anybody knows if Hydras are planed to be only build on DI. If so the problem we have right now with buildings would be kinda useless to address ;)
I was wondering if they'd go with the zerg route and make it so kharaa can only build on infested areas. Gorges could act like overseers and temporarily hurl up infestation... It sounds like it'd limit kharaa expansion too much though. I wonder if they are going to keep flamethrowers as the primary way to remove infestation as they are kind of late in the game (need to research T2, advanced armory, weapon module, then flamethrowers).
Changelog for my balance mod posted over in balancing (28 fixes, changes, or additions). I still need to do the merge with 156 and some final testing (I wrote it based on 155), but I'll be able to upload it later tonight. From what I can tell, only the server needs the changed lua files, so once you install the mod on a server, clients will have access to the changes too.
I think hydras highlight how badly the new resource distribution scales , a gorge can place speedbumps hydras in a corridor , but 4 gorges can completely blockade the only 2 ways out of the marine base on rockdown. After they're done laying them down , they can go lerk / fade and make any breakout attempt wishful thinking.
There needs to be a delay for switching to grenade launcher from rifle and vise versa, or even having the rifle disabled while the grenade launcher attachment is active. As it is, there is absolutely no reason why you would want a rifle over a rifle with a grenade launcher. In NS1, the power of the GL was offset by the fact that the user had limited ability to protect himself in close quarters. The advantage that the GL provides to the user must come with an disadvantage equal in magnitude.
Comments
=p
Obvious imbalances are obvious and will be fixed. Oh, and we're not feature complete....
Actually , marines can already build structures that were started by a MAC. It's fairly slow , however.
It's true that marines need something to repair armor on the field.
<!--quoteo(post=1808178:date=Nov 21 2010, 09:35 PM:name=Arcadian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arcadian @ Nov 21 2010, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Should suggestions be made for the balance this early? The gameplays balance could be compared to a scale that doesn't have all the weights yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can compare what we see with NS1 gameplay. Some elements of NS2 are clearly broken , you can't refade 3 times per minute with just 1 res node in NS1 , nor can you drop 2 hives simultaneously at game start. Resources are basically irrelevant at the moment.
and about res: i also noticed that resources are not important at all. you have always too much to spend them all.
about macs again:
in my last game i had a problem with macs (as commander): i could not expand at all, my initial macs got destroyed,
i had no energy and team was screaming "comm, do something!?!?!" macs / drifters should be really made optional,
<b>i prefer to rely on my team building something rather than rely on that they protect my macs / drifters.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
apprently (so the text help says) they can build it or help to
=p
Obvious imbalances are obvious and will be fixed. Oh, and we're not feature complete....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
with a ton of bug reports and low pop servers at this time umm what else do you want us to post qq threads on server stability lets be constructive here its never to early and they devs dont have to do this they can just notch done some ideas that they like and implement them later
=p
Obvious imbalances are obvious and will be fixed. Oh, and we're not feature complete....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
some things which are obvious may be missed by the devs, so pointing that out again will hurt nobody.
and yes, we are feature imcomplete, but (maybe im wrong) Tier 1 is complete on both sides, so we can
already discuss the basic stuff. stuff like lerk sniper shot, shotgun accuracy, LMG dmg, turret dmg should be
discussed. you are for example not able to kill a structure next to a crag with an LMG only, that is
poor and annoying (maybe lower the healing interval of the crag). its ok if it takes time
(like 20 seconds as lonely marine), but we learned from
early stages in NS1 that too strong static defense is annoying. Basically I just want to discuss the numbers,
and which values (from our point of view) should be changed.
besides that, the biggest problem is that it hasnt been decided how strong every weapon / lifeform etc should
be, we have no adequate resource costs. everything seems to be for free
lerk biting was AWESOME back in the day and with focus a powerful combo
oh i read some where bout lerk flying being bad whats bad you can fly side was and do strafe runs..... its mostly because of the physic engine at the moment
Separate note
i will have to disagree on the sentry's being useless down a long hallway there a ###### for any lerk or skulk anything bigger well they can storm past anyway, and with a good set up in a base with sentries covering sentries blind spot i think it could work at but yeh increase the range from 90 to 100-120.
and i just posted this idea sentry arc guidelines so we have 2 lines going to the circle that surrounds the sentry's (its range) showing where it can shoot
As far as having too many resources, right now it's kind of nice, because when new features are added it takes very little time to see, or use them in game. It's easy to showcase what's being added. When everything is in place before launch it will be a simple matter of scaling back resource production, and/or tweaking the numbers for cost.
well that make sense lol man i should have realized oh well thanks for clearing that up
Please don't let every marine buy his own weapons. Plz not.
I mean, every commander knows when to drop weapons. You know, a Fade comes up and you ask the commander for some shotguns, it's cool the way it was in NS1. It's the commander's decision when to use what kinds of weapons.
Plus i like the communication with the commander about this stuff. It's team play. Like "I want a SG!" - "No res, ###### off". Or "Okay, but don't lose it!".
Or from the Alien side, when people say "HMGs Up!!", we will never hear this again. With the new system it will be like "SaperioN has a SG!!" - "Oh, what a wonder".
Plus the pro players will always be way too strong.
Sorry for the bad english, but I think u know what i mean.
in NS1 I often met commanders, which gave weapons only to specific players, friends, good player, what ever.
new players often didn't have the chance to get good stuff!
the new system doesn't affect competive play, because here you still have
to arrange with your team, whether to save or spend your money
Last time i played ns2 closed beta i heard aliens saying "Flamethrowers! OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG" :X
However, the aliens should still rely on the drifters for the main upgrade structures, but at the same time gorges need more building options other than the hydra alone. This way aliens also have an option, be it a weaker option compared to a drifter structure, when they're in a tight spot and either their drifter dies or they are out of them.
They already can... >_>
good idea, here a few things i noticed in 156
<b>shotgun:</b>
im not sure about shot-gun, didnt play it in 156, but in 155 was the bullet spread little bit too high, dmg seems ok. it felt just right in ns1, but in ns2
its a little bit too much (for example, you cannot kill a whip with shotgun, only very slowly)
<b>Flamethrower:</b>
flame thrower damage is not ok. 1 "shot" kills a skulk instantly. that should be the job of the shotgun or grenade launcher.
as a fade you survive a few shots, but the blind effect gets you owned (dying being blind reminds me of getting devoured
in NS1, what you removed by reason)
<b>Grenade launcher:</b>
as mentioned in other threads the spam currently is not ok. i guess this will anyway be adressed by adjusting resource costs,
and if players (in a resource balanced game) can affort 10 grenade launchers marines should have won already anyway,
or its in late game stage and they are facing onoses and might fail with that strategy...
if a grenade explodes right next to you, well of course a skulk should die,
but you also die as a skulk if the grenade just explodes in the same room, what kinda sucks. similar for lerk / gorge
edit: just to mention it also here
<!--quoteo(post=1809127:date=Nov 23 2010, 07:35 AM:name=TheCaptain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheCaptain @ Nov 23 2010, 07:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
Fixed nades would do structural damage (300 to structures, 150 to players), bounce on contact with non players instead of exploding on contact like in NS1 (but explode when hitting players or structures), and do squared falloff damage so units at 5m would have a better chance of survival. This keeps them in their role of killing structures and groups of units, and less of an 'I win' button.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my oppinion the Crag should either be moved to tier 2 and/or lowered in HP. A set of a whip, one or two hydras and one or two crags is quiet easy to build but impossible to destroy with anything else then grenades. Even "sniping" the crags does not really work or simply takes too long.
Only thing I kinda see is Alien offensive turtling. If Marines don't get to T2 its gg.
no, don't do that! publishing it would be the worst thing to do, tearing the community apart. If you want to do something like this, write together some balance changes (upload the modified files in a seperate thread), so that UWE could use them, if they approve of them.
What's the problem? Do you think people are going to split between vanilla and modded servers because some will want to play a "pure" version of the game or do you think we'll have to modify the client files and thus would not be able to join vanilla servers anymore?
If its the latter, can't these changes be done entirely on the server?
-At this point in the build, the Grenade Launcher is too useful compared to the basic hitscan weapons, mostly because people suffer from network issues while the grenade launcher negates the trouble of finding the hitbox, it can be shot at your feet for no damage, and it will take out everything except for a level 3 armor Fade. It would work well if it was against grouped or armored targets, and against buildings (which is now mentioned in the progress page).
-Flamethrower is just frustrating when you get tagged and you go completely blind. The initial damage is very high, toasting away 100hp in a second, not counting the time spent on fire. While on this point, I think a good way of countering mass crags would be to make it so that if a flamethrower is used on the crag, the healing gas is stalled while it writhes in the fire.
Gorge:
-Unlimited amounts of Hydras, at least for how much they cost, is not good. I think having a cap for them that increases by obtaining certain objectives (extra hives, upgrades) would decrease the need for saturating an area with Hydras and would be properly used as a static support weapon in strategic places.
Lerk:
-The Snipe ability needs to cost more energy or needs a higher cooldown. It seems to have a proper damage scale, but should be used less often and offer a higher risk:reward for the player. Could do slightly less damage on body shots, and devastating damage on head shots.
-The gas needs to be on a longer cooldown. Seems to be used more often than the regular attack, because of it's effective area and how often it can be used without using much energy. I'm not sure if gas stacks, but if it does, that would explain why I turned around to a wall of solid off-white sprites and died instantly.
-At this point in the build, the Grenade Launcher is too useful compared to the basic hitscan weapons, mostly because people suffer from network issues while the grenade launcher negates the trouble of finding the hitbox, it can be shot at your feet for no damage, and it will take out everything except for a level 3 armor Fade. It would work well if it was against grouped or armored targets, and against buildings (which is now mentioned in the progress page).
-Flamethrower is just frustrating when you get tagged and you go completely blind. The initial damage is very high, toasting away 100hp in a second, not counting the time spent on fire. While on this point, I think a good way of countering mass crags would be to make it so that if a flamethrower is used on the crag, the healing gas is stalled while it writhes in the fire.
Gorge:
-Unlimited amounts of Hydras, at least for how much they cost, is not good. I think having a cap for them that increases by obtaining certain objectives (extra hives, upgrades) would decrease the need for saturating an area with Hydras and would be properly used as a static support weapon in strategic places.
Lerk:
-The Snipe ability needs to cost more energy or needs a higher cooldown. It seems to have a proper damage scale, but should be used less often and offer a higher risk:reward for the player. Could do slightly less damage on body shots, and devastating damage on head shots.
-The gas needs to be on a longer cooldown. Seems to be used more often than the regular attack, because of it's effective area and how often it can be used without using much energy. I'm not sure if gas stacks, but if it does, that would explain why I turned around to a wall of solid off-white sprites and died instantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed.
And now most of use can actually play and test pseudo-balance!
If Marines get to T2 Aliens are f*cked. If Marines are denied T2, they are f*cked.
Reason for this:
- Grenade Launcher and Flamethrower too strong if they are out, I think this has been mentioned enough.
- Marines have no way to fight structures without T2, but Aliens can pump structures out right from T1
Therefore:
- Something has to be done about the Crag. Its healing is insane and so is its health
- Hydras are a _way_ better defense then sentries are and thats kinda odd I think. They have no fire arc, are not reliant on power (might change with DI?) and can take quiet a punch, are even a match for two marines, mainly because they are found in groups. And also they dont seem to have friendly fire as sentries have (?)
- If not weakening the alien structures, Marines need a T1 possibility to fight groups of building. (Handgrenades maybe?)
So I think in the end in T1 something has to be done about alien buildings which carry to much punch for T1 (Upgrades possibly? Techtree position and abilities of the Crag) and the Marine T2 being to strong which is a simple nerf. I think with those two addressed we can start going at least a little bit deeper into balance discussions.
PS: In this discussion it would be helpfull if anybody knows if Hydras are planed to be only build on DI. If so the problem we have right now with buildings would be kinda useless to address ;)
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