Grenade Launcher Spam
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Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75018Members
Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75018Members
Once Marines get the grenade launcher and start spamming grenades everywhere on every building and alien there is pretty much nothing you can do. That in combination with the flame thrower is unstoppable. It get's kind of boring when grenades are being launched by every player. One positive thing about the original NS and designated weapon drops was that not everyone had the most powerful weapons. Now since anyone can upgrade everyone can be running around with them. Ends up making marines pretty OP.
Maybe because there aren't all the features yet aka an ONOS to counter the heavy weapons? It seems like if you are alien right now you have to do a quick kind of build and rush strat to win because as soon as the marines get their upgrades you're screwed.
Maybe because there aren't all the features yet aka an ONOS to counter the heavy weapons? It seems like if you are alien right now you have to do a quick kind of build and rush strat to win because as soon as the marines get their upgrades you're screwed.
Comments
Actually, I enjoy to see the marines team spamming that way and I can't do much about it. =)
Things i see coming:
Overall cost will be increased.
Nadeluncher:
GL will only have ~2 nades max.
GL dmg is ok. (if you lower max ammo)
Flamethrower:
Ammo will be decreased by a lot, clip size maybe too
Blind-effect will be changed - A LOT, so it doesnt blind but still tells you that you are burning.
Dmg against aliens and structures is ok.
Lmg:
fine
Pistol:
fine
Shotgun:
Clipsize will be increased? (saw that under progress some time ago)
Spread is unpredictable (and too wide?)... maybe because we dont see the bulletholes/bloodsplatter - we cant get used to it...
Aliens can easily dominate the game until the marines get GL and flamethrowers. The game is only balanced in the way that each side takes turns to pwn the other :P
:C
I'm sorry I killed you, but you were sniping me :P
Haha s'all good ;P
Kinda hoping that they do actually do something with the damage the flamethrower and grenades do. I mean, you can edit them yourself in the luas from what ive gathered...
I'm just so happy I can play decently right now that I don't really care that much about balance :)
But yeah, grenade and flamethrower needs some polish.
Things i see coming:
Overall cost will be increased.
Nadeluncher:
GL will only have ~2 nades max.
GL dmg is ok. (if you lower max ammo)
Flamethrower:
Ammo will be decreased by a lot, clip size maybe too
Blind-effect will be changed - A LOT, so it doesnt blind but still tells you that you are burning.
Dmg against aliens and structures is ok.
Lmg:
fine
Pistol:
fine
Shotgun:
Clipsize will be increased? (saw that under progress some time ago)
Spread is unpredictable (and too wide?)... maybe because we dont see the bulletholes/bloodsplatter - we cant get used to it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think the damage of the grenade launcher is acceptable considering the blast radius is massive. it can kill me from across the room when im up in a vent no where near where it went off :p
Me too!
Considering the GL completely ignores walls, it evens the sides up nicely.
Grenades right now do normal damage instead of structural as suggested in an old blog post. This means they do 300 to structures and players.
Grenades shoot through walls in this build (fixed in next build)
Grenades do linear falloff damage up to 10m (So at 5m, you get 150 damage)
Grenades explode on contact.
Fixed nades would do structural damage (300 to structures, 150 to players), bounce on contact with non players instead of exploding on contact like in NS1 (but explode when hitting players or structures), and do squared falloff damage so units at 5m would have a better chance of survival. This keeps them in their role of killing structures and groups of units, and less of an 'I win' button.
This, even noobtubes (which actually are less bogus than the GL and FT atm) in CoD/BC2 handicap you a little. And hi Pyro.
Why not do it TF2 style and have many choices available at start, with various strengths and weaknesses? Classes and weapons that complement each other while requiring team-work to be effective. Upgrades that makes them better as the game progresses, instead of Flamethrower > Shotgun > Rifle or Fade > Lerk > Skulk etc.
Would make the game much more interesting as well as varied, imo.
That's not the way it is supposed to be, afaik. And it already isn't in some cases- Fade and lerk come to mind.
Once all the weapons are more balanced, hopefully people will have to vary more.
Was there any sort of weapon-limit per team in NS1 or did the balance cause people to be more sensible?
HMG was better than the SMG in every way, except reload time.
I love how TF2 has no cookie cutter weapons, like a rifle or machine guns. All the <a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Category:Weapons" target="_blank">TF2 Weapons</a> have strengths and weaknesses. Not saying I want NS2 to be just like TF2 (and for the record, I haven't played TF2 since 2008 or so), but I'd like to see some of the thought behind the foundation of the gameplay, highly affected by the weaponry/classes, present in the development of NS2.
Why not do it TF2 style and have many choices available at start, with various strengths and weaknesses? Classes and weapons that complement each other while requiring team-work to be effective. Upgrades that makes them better as the game progresses, instead of Flamethrower > Shotgun > Rifle or Fade > Lerk > Skulk etc.
Would make the game much more interesting as well as varied, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because then you would have absolutley no progress at all in the game...
That's like making Starcraft 2 in such a way that you can build carriers/motherships/battlecruisers/ultralisks from the moment you start the round.
While it would be fun for 5 minutes it takes all the challenge and depth out of the game, it would make it even LESS varied because everybody would just use what's considered "the best" from the first minute of the round instead of beeing forced to make due with whatever he has access to right now.
Btw i also disagree that "once HMG and GL was in play you would always want a HMG".
That one of the most common and biggest mistakes i've seen many commanders go...
HMG damage against buildings is halfed and it lacks burst damage to properly kill fades, throwing a couple of shotguns into the whole HMG/GL mix allways works out better.
No there wasn't a limit, but resources simply dictated what you could dole out. If you could spam HMGs and GLs on everyone, you'd typically have so much of the map already that victory was all but assured. Early on you had things like solo jetpackers with HMGs assassinating Hives, and that ran true throughout the game's lifespan; typically, only a few players on a Marine team would have something other than a LMG, and comms tended to hand them out to players who had demonstrated their ability to aim.
That being said, Lvl 3 LMGs were pretty beastly.
That's like making Starcraft 2 in such a way that you can build carriers/motherships/battlecruisers/ultralisks from the moment you start the round.
While it would be fun for 5 minutes it takes all the challenge and depth out of the game, it would make it even LESS varied because everybody would just use what's considered "the best" from the first minute of the round instead of beeing forced to make due with whatever he has access to right now.
Btw i also disagree that "once HMG and GL was in play you would always want a HMG".
That one of the most common and biggest mistakes i've seen many commanders go...
HMG damage against buildings is halfed and it lacks burst damage to properly kill fades, throwing a couple of shotguns into the whole HMG/GL mix allways works out better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the insight. I wasn't aware HMG dmg on buildings were halved. I'm still curious about shotguns though, they sure have higher burst dmg and work well vs Fades, but considering HMGs can pump out constant dmg with that high ammo per clip count they are kind of good vs everything and not outright bad vs anything, while not as situational as the shotgun.
I'd like to comment on your StarCraft 2 comment though, which I humbly disagree to.
Let me start of by saying that even though I want more classes/weapons to be available at earlier stages of the game, that doesn't mean I want their full potential and skill/ability set to be available at the same time. Researching/unlocking upgrades through getting more tech points would be a requirement, so that all classes/weapons remain useful at the later stages of the game.
Let's look at SC2, while in the early game, each race has a set of units available. Take protoss; Zealots, Stalkers and Sentires all have to be in the mix for them to be effective in the early game. While researches like Charge and Blink makes them useful and cost-effective at the later stages in the game.
Marines and Marauders have stim and Zerglings have their speed upgrade, though these upgrades are usually gotten very early, so one can't really say they are late-game tech. But most (if not all) of these units retain their usefulness throught the game. (Some of them scale badly with attack/armor upgrades, so they aren't as useful).
I'm very much for synergy between classes/weapons, and sure, in the mid- to late-game that will be very present, but during the early game, one really only has one or two choices. Marines will have rifles and Aliens will be mostly skulks and maybe a gorge or two. I like having options and variety instead of being "forced" into a role.
Honestly, I'd like to see more weapons and classes overall. One could keep the research and tier structure that is in the game now, but adding options that supplement the already present ones.
Does anyone else feel the same way, or am I tearing down the foundations of what you feel is NS? :p
Also, I'm very open minded about this, I might change my mind as we continue discussion, but I just feel like discussing these core designs of the game.
The problem with such system was that a lot of people never understood it to the full. You had to understand the RTS game progress to some extend to be able to make those decisions on your own. Usually people had one mindset for one gun or alien, which then lacked the ability to adapt to the gameplay situation.
Later on public games slowly grew into 32 player bloodbaths where there was no way to control and communicate situations enough and no need to use players efficiently since you basically had a handful of everything everywhere. Also, the alien res model slowed their tech progress down on higher playercounts, which allowed marines to play safe instead of efficient on many situations.
Generally I like the idea of multiple balanced options (and Charlie has said that he's trying to make sure all units and weapons retain a use even in late game) but more for a pure FPS. Whilst you make good points about upgrades for weapons instead of upgrades to access them, I think different states of the same adds an extra layer of complexity that doesn't really add that much depth, and would be very confusing until you learn the game.
UWE are trying to go for accessibility as well as depth and lets face it NS2 is looking pretty complex to jump into as it is! Being 'forced' to learn the rifle marine and skulk as a base line is probably a good thing to get the player to experience the game play. I don't know about you but I feel slightly overwhelmed when starting class based game and only feel comfortable many tens of hours in when I got a reasonable feel of all the different combinations, I don't think that's what they want to go for.
But I'd be perfectly willing to try your version of NS2 and in fact I'd already sketched down a mod concept that was based choosing any weapon as your default and make sure they were all balanced :D.
Why not do it TF2 style and have many choices available at start, with various strengths and weaknesses? Classes and weapons that complement each other while requiring team-work to be effective. Upgrades that makes them better as the game progresses, instead of Flamethrower > Shotgun > Rifle or Fade > Lerk > Skulk etc.
Would make the game much more interesting as well as varied, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A degree of progression is important, choice at the start is not bad, but escalating the game over time lengthens the appeal.
The most obvious comparison for me is empires mod, the game gets boring really fast if you stay at top tier tech for too long, the best games are the ones that run through the tech tree with fighting going on all the way, and finish fairly soon after reaching top tier.
The changing technology keeps the game varied, it's a twist factor that makes the game change constantly, once that is removed the game loses a big part of its variety.
Choice at start = more variety, but removal of progression = less variey, and unfortunately choice at start + progression will usually = overcomplication.
Actually yes that's what i would feel about such a change.
Or to stay with the current example Starcraft2: Most base T1 units stay viable trough the whole game, yes you upgrade them but you also unlock new tiers of units but even with that the base T1 units still have a role and purpose.
Something similiar will probably happen in NS2, you don't just have new Tiers that replace the old ones but upgrades for the old ones so they stay viable. The grenade launcher upgrade is a good example for this, sure you might have miniguns/HMG's at some point maybe even real grenade launchers but you still will have people running around with LMG's that maybe have nerve-gas grenades or something like that.
But one of the most basic reaons for me is pretty simple: It's fun it gives you motivation
It's way more fun to know "if we hold this resnode the commander will be able to research jetpacks and i will be able to fly around!" instead of "i started the round with a jetpack when i hold this resnode the commander will be able to research an upgrade so it has 10% more flight time. Yay?"
Tiers give the player something to look forward to to unlock, it's basicly a reward for doing good. Just like leveling up in RPG's gives you access to new talents, or leveling up in call of duty gives you access to new weapons. It's basicly all the same and even TF2 works with that system as you don't start out with all the aviable weapons/hats but you rather have to find/build them.
1) Make it do friendly damage (or at least to the guy using it). It's BS they can just aim at their feet and stop any skulk rush.
2) Drastically reduce the damage. It should probably kill an armor 0 skulk in 1 hit, but should take 2 hits if any kind of upgrade. Hydras need to take 2 grenades to die (currently 1). And the fade needs to be able to take 5 or 6 grenades. The fade it far too weak right now. It can't live long enough to take out a sentry if another one is firing on it. I LOLed at a fade attacking me and another marine with GLs. We both fired at our feet and the fade was dead instantly.
We could edit the lua files ourselves, to "balance" the game, but since the server and the client need the same files it would only tear the community apart. Let's wait for UWE to adjust it themselves :)