<!--quoteo(post=1808549:date=Nov 22 2010, 09:52 AM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Nov 22 2010, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I ask again...<b>wtf is the use of the axe/knife now that you have the alt fire ALSO as melee?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make the rifle alt fire useless vs buildings? The skin/flesh/whatever of structures is just too thick to be damaged by a blunt rifle butt. That way there's still that risk of saving ammo vs getting ambushed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the spread on the fire is pretty big at a distance currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try crouch, it helps a lot...
I'd remove the altfire of the lmg, and make it a research... or like with the "skulk leap" leave it as it is(low version, same dmg as axe against alienplayers), and make an upgrade.
With the upgrade you are able to control when this thing gets into the game, so it doesnt get unbalanced...
I'd make it a basic armory upgrade, that adds some bonus to it (like a pushback etc)... so you can decide to upgrade shotguns, or this first. Aliens will have enough time and money to have upgraded leap or other lifeforms / lerk, gorge by the time this upgrade is finished...
This will make a good combo, some ppl with shotgun and some with lmg to push aliens away... of course this needs a little cooldown after a successful pushback hit, so you cant make a wall of marines pushing back every alienlifeform... by the same time this pushback is still very risky, because aliens can still hit you (meleerange is a bit shorter than skulk bite, at least it looks like it atm...)
<u><b>Axe is still viable too, because it does increased dmg against alien structures.</b></u> Most dps besides flamethrower/gl
The axe was always meant to kill structures. Knife kills against aliens were almost entirely for humiliation in NS1, it was rarely worth using for real. Having a rifle butt attack is useful as a last ditch defense if you don't quite finish them off with the LMG, and it makes more sense than frantically switching to your pistol at point blank range.
<!--quoteo(post=1808719:date=Nov 22 2010, 05:05 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 22 2010, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knife kills against aliens were almost entirely for humiliation in NS1, it was rarely worth using for real.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't true at all actually. They were very useful against skulks in close quarters if you'd already landed a few shots.
There are damage types in NS2. Axe damage type is supposed to be good against <b>structures</b> but weak against <b>kharaa life forms</b>. Secondary rifle butt attack will do good damage against <b>kharaa life forms</b> but weak against <b>structures</b>.
It's beyond obvious that the intended use is - fire LMG->swing as a burst to finish.
Axe dps will obviously be higher against buildings. Butt will have terrible DPS, but will burst that last swing on a skulk or lerk.
The knife has clear purpose and functionality and i think most people agree it really works great. I think the thing we are questioning is the purpose of the LMG alt fire and i don't think anyone expects it to do anything vs structures.
1. Offensive finishing attack. Situational, out of ammo/better than reloading. Id expect this version to be slightly more damage; not vs Onos/Fade though.
2. Offensive/Defensive attack. If it shoves say a skulk or gorge. Less damage but better survival functionality.
In half life and other assorted games, getting slapped by a zombie or kicked in the face by a marine would make your screen jerk left or right. This would work for fade, lerk or gorge. Not so much onos or skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1808757:date=Nov 22 2010, 10:08 PM:name=Pr0n)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pr0n @ Nov 22 2010, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Axe damage type is supposed to be good against <b>structures</b> but weak against <b>kharaa life forms</b>. Secondary rifle butt attack will do good damage against <b>kharaa life forms</b> but weak against <b>structures</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first line explaining that an axe is better against structures Im willing to believe...
but.... the other way around...??? seriously... I would still rather hit my enemies with an axe then with the back of my rifle!
therefor it makes the rifle butt redundant (I hope noone is going to tell us that an axe is suposed to do less damage then a rifle butt in melee action)
I vote for either of the following or something else that I can't think of:
coolio laser sight burst mode researchable silencer add-on a smoke-grenade launcher (max 1 grenade per marine to avoid spamming and make it expensive + commander purchase only)
+1 to parry effect as seen in the fade reveal video. if timed and aimed properly it should just nullify the fade's swipe/slash attack. don't hate for this reference but... halo made it work with the energy swords.
<!--quoteo(post=1808792:date=Nov 22 2010, 11:28 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Nov 22 2010, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->coolio laser sight burst mode researchable silencer add-on a smoke-grenade launcher (max 1 grenade per marine to avoid spamming and make it expensive + commander purchase only)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#C0C0C0--><span style="color:#C0C0C0"><!--/coloro-->No laser sight, doesn't do anything and reveals your position. Yes. This makes sense if it rebalances the rifle stats (rate of fire, accuracy, damage). No. This might be handy, in certain situations though usually if you're firing at something, everyone already knows you're there. No. This would be cool and all, but it just screams "here I am" and the aliens are fast enough to just charge through the cloud anyway.
Now the smoke-grenade idea made me think; <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFFFF--><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>poison gas</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - this would actually slow the aliens down as there are consequences for charging through it, fade is an exception as it can just blink past the cloud, which is a good weakness for balance, plus it's one use only. It would work something like the lerk's spore cloud of course.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1808797:date=Nov 22 2010, 11:46 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 22 2010, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Axe vs structures, rifle alt fire vs lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seriously, explain why i wouldn't just axe 'lifeforms'
<!--quoteo(post=1808804:date=Nov 22 2010, 07:03 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Nov 22 2010, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->seriously, explain why i wouldn't just axe 'lifeforms'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if "Axe" does 10 damage to skulk (damage penalty to lifeforms) And If "Rifle Butt" does 40 damage to skulk (damage bonus to lifeforms)
You would use Rifle Butt because Axe would take 4x hits in melee to achieve 1x hit in melee vs Rifle Butt if the damage numbers are correct. Staying in melee longer is a bad idea anyways.
The other case:
Axe does 20 damage to Harvester (damage bonus to structures) And Rifle Butt does 10 damage to Harvester (damage penalty to structures)
Here you use Axe. Axe is also probably faster, but even if they swing at the same speed Axe kills Harvester in half the time, meaning it's twice as good in this situation.
Situational weapons is a good thing.
Rifle Butt might also have more "range" than Axe, and Axe could swing faster than Rifle Butt. I don't know currently, but in the future these are easy tweaks to further differentiate the two. There could be additional reasons, but damage types is the one that makes the most sense.
You would not switch from LMG shooting to axe when the skulk gets into melee - you would just melee with your rifle. And you won't just Rifle Butt a res node when Axe kills it faster - you would switch to your Axe - leaving you MORE vulnerable to skulks, for example. That all adds to the game.
Have you never played a game with damage types in it? If you don't understand types of damage then that makes sense. You use different weapons/attacks to counter certain "units/structures". Maybe the Axe does bonus damage to Lerk, and therefore, you would want to swap to your Axe if you were in melee with a Lerk for some reason. But you would not want to use Rifle Butt against Lerk if the Axe worked better. Sure they both do damage, but one does the right kind of damage, and therefore, is better in this case. In other cases, it would be worse.
Typed damage exactly means that Rock works great against Scissors but fails against Paper and is only mediocre against Rock. Damage types is definitely a great bonus to NS2's future.
<!--quoteo(post=1808796:date=Nov 22 2010, 11:40 PM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Nov 22 2010, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...Now the smoke-grenade idea made me think; <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFFFF--><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>poison gas</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - this would actually slow the aliens down as there are consequences for charging through it, fade is an exception as it can just blink past the cloud, which is a good weakness for balance, plus it's one use only. It would work something like the lerk's spore cloud of course.[/color]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to bump my own post, but I really wanted an opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1808817:date=Nov 23 2010, 01:31 AM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Nov 23 2010, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate to bump my own post, but I really wanted an opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be too similar to the lerk spore imo. Plus TSA already has an area of effect device in the flamethrower.
<!--quoteo(post=1808549:date=Nov 22 2010, 08:52 AM:name=salor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (salor @ Nov 22 2010, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I ask again...<b>wtf is the use of the axe/knife now that you have the alt fire ALSO as melee?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shotgun, Rifle with nade launcher and flamethrower don't have a melee alt fire, hence the usefulness of the axe/knife. I agree there could be a better alt-fire for the vanilla rifle, although the current attack might be fine once the lag dies down and you can actually properly hit something with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1808676:date=Nov 23 2010, 05:10 AM:name=Faustinian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faustinian @ Nov 23 2010, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The melee with the rifle feels more like a Marines attempt to save themselves to me, and less of a usable offensive maneuver. Why not simply set it up so that to melee with the Rifle is to negate any melee attack (singular, not plural), with diminishing returns (slower or less damage negated?). No damage would be dealt for the sake of balance, but it would allow a Marine to stave off being slaughtered, at least long enough that a buddy can cover him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
im liking that one, i mean 2v1 a marine could use this advantage against a skulk head on the skulk will lose, will cause it to rethink parasite and back off and plan an ambush from behind, rather then bum rush leapign to side walls and tearing the marine up(most likely cos of insane lag but you know what im saying)
Hot CoffeeJoin Date: 2010-11-03Member: 74744Members, Constellation
If the knockback was to be removed, I would support the idea of having a Full Auto / Burst mode toggle. Burst = more accurate, saves on ammo, discourages spray-n-pray; Full auto = less accurate, higher damage output (for example, firing at onos or structures), good for providing suppressive fire to an area.
+1 to maintaing current alt-fire: The axe and the rifle butt attack server completely different purposes. When a marine makes the decision to attack a structure, he must commit to using the axe, and thus expose himself to the enemy. Switching back to a weapon takes time and punishes the marine for exposing himself when not covered by his buddies. Swinging the rifle butt is a last ditch, last chance attack in a close quarters situation. I have found it to be exceedingly satisfying to use and it goes along way toward mitigating 'reload frustration' - the feeling that you are helpless once you empty your magazine at an oncoming skulk.
-1 to any kind of disabling attack: Disabling/stunning/attack inhibiting abilities are frustrating and extremely sensitive to the smallest amounts of lag in an FPS. They below in WoW and DotA, not NS.
Comments
I wouldn't mind ...
Make the rifle alt fire useless vs buildings? The skin/flesh/whatever of structures is just too thick to be damaged by a blunt rifle butt. That way there's still that risk of saving ammo vs getting ambushed.
Try crouch, it helps a lot...
I'd remove the altfire of the lmg, and make it a research... or like with the "skulk leap" leave it as it is(low version, same dmg as axe against alienplayers), and make an upgrade.
With the upgrade you are able to control when this thing gets into the game, so it doesnt get unbalanced...
I'd make it a basic armory upgrade, that adds some bonus to it (like a pushback etc)... so you can decide to upgrade shotguns, or this first.
Aliens will have enough time and money to have upgraded leap or other lifeforms / lerk, gorge by the time this upgrade is finished...
This will make a good combo, some ppl with shotgun and some with lmg to push aliens away... of course this needs a little cooldown after a successful pushback hit, so you cant make a wall of marines pushing back every alienlifeform... by the same time this pushback is still very risky, because aliens can still hit you (meleerange is a bit shorter than skulk bite, at least it looks like it atm...)
<u><b>Axe is still viable too, because it does increased dmg against alien structures.</b></u> Most dps besides flamethrower/gl
This isn't true at all actually. They were very useful against skulks in close quarters if you'd already landed a few shots.
There are damage types in NS2.
Axe damage type is supposed to be good against <b>structures</b> but weak against <b>kharaa life forms</b>.
Secondary rifle butt attack will do good damage against <b>kharaa life forms</b> but weak against <b>structures</b>.
It's beyond obvious that the intended use is - fire LMG->swing as a burst to finish.
Axe dps will obviously be higher against buildings. Butt will have terrible DPS, but will burst that last swing on a skulk or lerk.
1. Offensive finishing attack. Situational, out of ammo/better than reloading. Id expect this version to be slightly more damage; not vs Onos/Fade though.
2. Offensive/Defensive attack. If it shoves say a skulk or gorge. Less damage but better survival functionality.
Secondary rifle butt attack will do good damage against <b>kharaa life forms</b> but weak against <b>structures</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first line explaining that an axe is better against structures Im willing to believe...
but.... the other way around...??? seriously... I would still rather hit my enemies with an axe then with the back of my rifle!
therefor it makes the rifle butt redundant (I hope noone is going to tell us that an axe is suposed to do less damage then a rifle butt in melee action)
I vote for either of the following or something else that I can't think of:
coolio laser sight
burst mode
researchable silencer add-on
a smoke-grenade launcher (max 1 grenade per marine to avoid spamming and make it expensive + commander purchase only)
burst mode
researchable silencer add-on
a smoke-grenade launcher (max 1 grenade per marine to avoid spamming and make it expensive + commander purchase only)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#C0C0C0--><span style="color:#C0C0C0"><!--/coloro-->No laser sight, doesn't do anything and reveals your position.
Yes. This makes sense if it rebalances the rifle stats (rate of fire, accuracy, damage).
No. This might be handy, in certain situations though usually if you're firing at something, everyone already knows you're there.
No. This would be cool and all, but it just screams "here I am" and the aliens are fast enough to just charge through the cloud anyway.
Now the smoke-grenade idea made me think; <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFFFF--><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>poison gas</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - this would actually slow the aliens down as there are consequences for charging through it, fade is an exception as it can just blink past the cloud, which is a good weakness for balance, plus it's one use only. It would work something like the lerk's spore cloud of course.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
seriously, explain why i wouldn't just axe 'lifeforms'
Because if "Axe" does 10 damage to skulk (damage penalty to lifeforms)
And
If "Rifle Butt" does 40 damage to skulk (damage bonus to lifeforms)
You would use Rifle Butt because Axe would take 4x hits in melee to achieve 1x hit in melee vs Rifle Butt if the damage numbers are correct. Staying in melee longer is a bad idea anyways.
The other case:
Axe does 20 damage to Harvester (damage bonus to structures)
And
Rifle Butt does 10 damage to Harvester (damage penalty to structures)
Here you use Axe. Axe is also probably faster, but even if they swing at the same speed Axe kills Harvester in half the time, meaning it's twice as good in this situation.
Situational weapons is a good thing.
Rifle Butt might also have more "range" than Axe, and Axe could swing faster than Rifle Butt. I don't know currently, but in the future these are easy tweaks to further differentiate the two. There could be additional reasons, but damage types is the one that makes the most sense.
You would not switch from LMG shooting to axe when the skulk gets into melee - you would just melee with your rifle. And you won't just Rifle Butt a res node when Axe kills it faster - you would switch to your Axe - leaving you MORE vulnerable to skulks, for example. That all adds to the game.
Have you never played a game with damage types in it? If you don't understand types of damage then that makes sense. You use different weapons/attacks to counter certain "units/structures". Maybe the Axe does bonus damage to Lerk, and therefore, you would want to swap to your Axe if you were in melee with a Lerk for some reason. But you would not want to use Rifle Butt against Lerk if the Axe worked better. Sure they both do damage, but one does the right kind of damage, and therefore, is better in this case. In other cases, it would be worse.
Typed damage exactly means that Rock works great against Scissors but fails against Paper and is only mediocre against Rock. Damage types is definitely a great bonus to NS2's future.
I hate to bump my own post, but I really wanted an opinion.
Would be too similar to the lerk spore imo. Plus TSA already has an area of effect device in the flamethrower.
no alt fire mode > useless fire mode
Shotgun, Rifle with nade launcher and flamethrower don't have a melee alt fire, hence the usefulness of the axe/knife. I agree there could be a better alt-fire for the vanilla rifle, although the current attack might be fine once the lag dies down and you can actually properly hit something with it.
im liking that one, i mean 2v1 a marine could use this advantage against a skulk head on the skulk will lose, will cause it to rethink parasite and back off and plan an ambush from behind, rather then bum rush leapign to side walls and tearing the marine up(most likely cos of insane lag but you know what im saying)
+1 to maintaing current alt-fire: The axe and the rifle butt attack server completely different purposes. When a marine makes the decision to attack a structure, he must commit to using the axe, and thus expose himself to the enemy. Switching back to a weapon takes time and punishes the marine for exposing himself when not covered by his buddies. Swinging the rifle butt is a last ditch, last chance attack in a close quarters situation. I have found it to be exceedingly satisfying to use and it goes along way toward mitigating 'reload frustration' - the feeling that you are helpless once you empty your magazine at an oncoming skulk.
-1 to any kind of disabling attack: Disabling/stunning/attack inhibiting abilities are frustrating and extremely sensitive to the smallest amounts of lag in an FPS. They below in WoW and DotA, not NS.