<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The UWE forums have always been filled with a vocal majority of complete idiot low-skilled pub players who think that having a keyboard entitles them to comment on complex game mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to be writing large walls of text without making any coherent, concise point. When you can articulate a concise point of debate, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, what is up with the attitude? Why are you on these forums if there are so many idiots on here.
<!--quoteo(post=1805689:date=Nov 15 2010, 11:55 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Nov 15 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the point is that there are correct ways to use / tech stuff, correct ways to "counter" stuff and long time competitive players have better understanding of each decision and how it effects the outcome. Nothing has to be "discarded" it is just how to adjust to opponents moves.
Even though by luck that mod is one of the most successful games out there, why not take example from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As aliens the fade in competitive matches is the be all end all. If other units are just clutter, what is the point of them? It makes for more linear strategy. If they don't work effectively, make them work...
<!--quoteo(post=1805690:date=Nov 16 2010, 02:56 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 16 2010, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, what is up with the attitude? Why are you on these forums if there are so many idiots on here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because some people have high expectations from this game. I personally couldnt care less about the people.
<!--quoteo(post=1805693:date=Nov 15 2010, 04:03 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 15 2010, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As aliens the fade in competitive matches is the be all end all. If other units are just clutter, what is the point of them? It makes for more linear strategy. If they don't work effectively, make them work...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not completely true. Sure most of the game in NS2 is centered around Fades, but that doesn't make the other stuff irrelevant. It takes a decent amount of investment to get to Fade and to counter the Fade. Some teams would use an early Lerk to help hamper the Marine team, Gorges are one of the more important lifeforms ever to cap res nodes, the Marines had to control enough of the map to have income for upgrades and shotguns, these are not clutter. They are supporting actors perhaps, but they are not clutter. Clutter would be something you can skip entirely and it have little to no consequence.
Back on topic, allow me summarize: Side A) OMG more components are being mirrored on both sides! This means less asymmetry! Side B) Marginal costs of asymmetry for easier understand/balance is necessary! And the core asymmetries aren't being altered so it's still asymmetrical enough!
I don't know if it's <i>hundreds</i> of years? But there's definitely a big enough gap between them allowing both sides to make some technological advances.
<!--quoteo(post=1805706:date=Nov 16 2010, 12:46 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 16 2010, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True. But when did you ever see an Onos in play? Or chambers being used to full effectiveness?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos are seen in late game when aliens have the resources to tank the marines or to counter HA. I don't get what you mean by chambers being used to full effectiveness though, as I always see 3 chambers being built, and often in spots that are hard for marines to kill but provide ESP/energy/redemption/heals from convenient paths.
I believe the slight loss in overall asymmetrical gameplay caused by the addtion of the 2nd commander is worthwhile due to the current lack of symmetry when comparing the two teams side by side.
I certainly hope you're not making too many assumptions of competetive play based only on Blind's commentaries (they sure are entertaining, but in no way in depth and mostly covers matches way past the era of active competetive NS). I think people making too many simplifications and assumptions is a part why a lot of top tier players are no longer posting here. By all means, questionize, critisize, ask tough questions and bring your own viewpoints to the discussion - I strongly encourage that-, but I wouldn't go making too many direct claims and statements without having experienced and experimented things myself thoroughly. It's easier to have an actual valuable discussion when one side doesn't have to keep correcting false assumptions and misconceptions all the time.
:) ---
As for the actual topic:
Yeah, the RTS asymmetry seems to be going down quite a bit. As I've said before, I find an acceptable way to keep the balancing process somewhat under control. It took probably some 5 years to really nail the balance in original NS and even then the balance varies way too much depending on individual skill levels and playercounts. I can't blame them if they don't want to do it the hard way on NS2. I don't know if it's possible to get two separate res models work to an acceptable extend within some reasonable time boundaries, but I certainly think UWE folks are in a pretty decent position to judge the alternatives after they've been involved in all the balancing process of NS1.
What I want to see is UWE making use of the good sides of symmetry now that it apparently is part of the plan. I'd like see a gameplay balance that allows variation in round structure, gameplay that allows different styles of play and more interaction between the teams on the RTS level. I want to see aliens being a bit more adaptive on their res game and less dependand on rigid res peaks.
The thing that mildly bothers me how both teams are res modelled a little between their NS1 counterparts. Usually I don't like picking the middle ground in gaming, it often ends up being rather bland without having any distinct and memorable characteristics. At worst it could mean that both teams are going to lack the versatility of marine res game (gun bias, upgrade bias, medpacking and all that) while still missing the good sides of alien res peak game (abusable for opponent, RFK distribution, challenges of situational team adaptation and so on).
I have to admit as an avid player of NS, and someone who has done so since release day (I remember 3 hive onos preq, babblers, gorges sucking res out of the nodes, etc) that I wasn't entirely thrilled at some of the changes I read about in regards to the symmetry of NS2. I was really confused when it came to multiple commanders and even alien commanders. I feel that the aliens will be at a loss for having three of their players sitting in a hive instead of on the battlefield helping. You could just as easily modify gorges to be on-site commanders by allowing them to bring up a menu when they 'use' a specific upgrade chamber, and entirely do away with drifters and just let the gorges drop what they want. As for moving chambers like whips, why not implement a system that allows the gorge to control them with binds? It'd be a lot more dangerous to encounter gorges that have creatures moving along with them in my opinion.
Above all else, I just hope the dev team really considers the consequences for their changes. New things are good because we don't want a rehashed NS on a new engine, but use good judgment.
<!--quoteo(post=1805727:date=Nov 16 2010, 06:13 AM:name=derWalter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (derWalter @ Nov 16 2010, 06:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->think about a NEW game, the story is hundreds of years after ns1 happend, everything changed ... but the war goes on!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 50, at max. more like 5.
<!--quoteo(post=1805857:date=Nov 16 2010, 09:51 PM:name=Matt Regan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Matt Regan @ Nov 16 2010, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess this would be a bad time to tell you guys the Gorge can equip shotguns huh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already knew that, just go alien and type 'give *weaponname*' in console.
My favourite is going Onos and typing 'give minigun'. You should have a 'black armour' for aliens as well, except it is a leather jacket, boots and a motorcycle.
I've answered this question before but here it is again:
The only thing that is the same between the two sides is that a) a commander exists and b) there is a shared resource system. The abilities, activities and philosophy behind commanding for the two sides are completely different.
Think of it like how Starcraft is an RTS with a minimap, minerals and gas, hotgroups, etc. for all sides but the races play very differently.
<!--quoteo(post=1805627:date=Nov 15 2010, 06:41 AM:name=Rebel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rebel @ Nov 15 2010, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the hell is it about these forums where you can't actually discuss the gamplay mechinics as they are unfolding (again with it being Alpha things are not set yet and I do also have faith in UWE to deliver a fantastic end product), it just seems to be composed entirely of flamewars and trolling, if you don't know how to respond that's fine, don't respond, there is a saying about if you can't say anything nice....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't actually say anything was good or bad. You just repeated some facts. Which this community has known about (For many months, even years?) and discussed many times. So tell us your opinion. Is this one instance of increased symmetry good or bad? Otherwise you're obviously trolling by posting a controversial topic and leaving the community to discuss it (again).
Here's a response liking the increased symmetry.
Reasons:
1: Less alien players have to sacrifice their FPS game so everyone else can have a chance at winning. In NS1, three players must go alien builder or aliens lose. Full stop, nobody disagrees here. In NS2, 1 player must go alien builder. On this one instance, I am heavily in favor of NS2's single alien builder (because I think underproviding mandatory roles is safer than providing too many. 1 is too little, 3 is too much.).
2: I'm going to say it bluntly. NS1 has three castrated alien builders per game (a gorge can do ONE of the following: craft 1 chamber / 3 minutes, OR build 1 RT / 4 minutes, OR 1 hive / 4-6 minutes.). NS2 has one much more flexible, versatile, and powerful alien builder (They're building everything not a Hydra, every tech expansion, and researching every upgrade). There's more options more often and all the fun is condensed for one player. I know people are going to get burned because there's only alien builder per NS2 game. I know the one player who gets to be the alien builder will have more fun. On this one instance, I am barely in favor of NS2's single alien builder.
3: Better balanced. In NS1, the alien resource model is horribly inefficient. The NS1 marines are able to keep their cached resources below 100 (and are probably losing if they let the resources climb over 100 consistently). Load up NS1. Join the average 24 person server. Join Aliens. After five minutes, look at everyone's resources. Total them. Almost certainly over 100 resources not spent, very likely 200, probably 300-350, unlikely 400+. Because you can spend resources to get more resources later, continuously having 400 resources in the bank when the biggest possible expenditure is 75 is <i>terrrrrrribad</i>. On this one instance I am incredibly favoring NS2's single alien builder.
4: More capable of being balanced. We've discussed this, we know it's true.
Asymmetry definitely has its perks. If there's none, the game really only has one team to experience. If we had two teams before, that's at least half the content completely cut out of the game. This is something the community should definitely be worried about, and worried about a lot.
I think 3-4 pros balances out the 1-2 cons (I think there's 3 pros + 1 con + 1 neutral change, but that's my opinion). A little bit of symmetry is alright if it provides a lot of benefits. And too much asymmetry can exist, though I think NS1 had a good amount of asymmetry or even not enough! :D
I havent logged into the forum much at all, but I thought Id go out of my way because I feel fairly passionate about this topic.
Im shocked it hasnt been said more, a HUGE draw to me was the asymmetric gameplay, it was almost 2 different games in one, I never got burnt out of playing because I could just play the other race and have a TOTALLY new experience.
Sometime I just dont want to worry about having to have a commander ya know? Then again, sometimes I just want to flex skulks with mad shottie skill.
I can tell you right now that its going to be the biggest drawback (for me) over NS1
<!--quoteo(post=1805942:date=Nov 17 2010, 02:09 AM:name=Ares550)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ares550 @ Nov 17 2010, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometime I just dont want to worry about having to have a commander ya know? Then again, sometimes I just want to flex skulks with mad shottie skill. I can tell you right now that its going to be the biggest drawback (for me) over NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1806056:date=Nov 17 2010, 03:14 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 17 2010, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->looks like your S.O.L<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, that's not nice. And you have terrible grammar.
Uh.. the res systems may have become less asymmetric.. but I don't see any significant changes to the gameplay assymetry.
Seriously, unless you played gorge and dropped RTs regularly how has the game changed? You still need someone to drop a specific object in order to upgrade in a specific fashion. You're still free to ignore whoever is on the mic. You're still having to close in on the marines while they shoot you.
It's a mistake to consider gorge in ns only as builder.
I like the idea of a simple and easy accesable ns2 after launch to get a large player base, then make it more complex and difficult over the time of one year. That is comfy and can lead to greater gampelay changes than just taking 'old' stuff by force.
I've stopped thinking actively about this game and NS for a while now but.. well. The issue with having a commander at all at a high level in NS1, apart from havign a commander being a nice idea and all, is that it just wasnt all that fun. A good commander was one who didnt screw up, not one who thought up the neatest ideas on the fly. Tactics and strategy on maps in NS1 were already mapped out by the team together through countless games and some closed session listen server run throughs and discussions. Then it was just executing and doing minor adjustments.
Now imagine NS2, where that same player had to be commander on the alien side as well. Or the team having to look for another commander-type player. The issues of putting together a stable team would increase enormously. And on public servers you'd need not one but TWO players interested in commanding and being able to do it at the same time to get a decent game.
Assuming you did get two players, one on each team, eager to command and allowed to do so you might have a good pub game. But how many games out of ten would that be?
It is all opinion at this point. The game is not in a fully playable state. When you state your opinion ... use the word opinion or a similar word.
That way you will not ruffle the feathers of people like me who say "It's all opinion now"
Fact 1 There are two commanders now. I don't think this will change and I think it was a good choice. <--See I said 'I think'.. For a new player in NS1 it was not obvious MULTIPLE people had to be gorge. This would result in scenarios where no one played gorge or too many played it. Which would result in loss and dissatisfaction. I knew people who would only play marines for this reason alone. Who knows maybe they will come up with another model in the end (voting for upgrades?) I just hope it is simple.
Fact 2 The developers love this game and the concepts. They want it to be a totally different game playing either side. They also know that no matter how long anyone discusses game mechanics ... playtest is king ... stats are the words of the game gods.
<!--quoteo(post=1806089:date=Nov 17 2010, 03:48 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Nov 17 2010, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've stopped thinking actively about this game and NS for a while now but.. well. The issue with having a commander at all at a high level in NS1, apart from havign a commander being a nice idea and all, is that it just wasnt all that fun. A good commander was one who didnt screw up, not one who thought up the neatest ideas on the fly. Tactics and strategy on maps in NS1 were already mapped out by the team together through countless games and some closed session listen server run throughs and discussions. Then it was just executing and doing minor adjustments.
Now imagine NS2, where that same player had to be commander on the alien side as well. Or the team having to look for another commander-type player. The issues of putting together a stable team would increase enormously. And on public servers you'd need not one but TWO players interested in commanding and being able to do it at the same time to get a decent game.
Assuming you did get two players, one on each team, eager to command and allowed to do so you might have a good pub game. But how many games out of ten would that be?
Basically: logistics matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, this is the downside of having two commanders.
I still somewhat enjoy NS1 commanding, but I feel it's partitially because it puts me out of my comfort zone and into a role where I actually have to be audible and show leadership qualities. For someone who does that naturally it's probably a lot less exciting and challenging. I also doubt doing it on both sides would add anything to that unless the actual commander gameplay gets more interesting.
<!--quoteo(post=1806089:date=Nov 17 2010, 10:48 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Nov 17 2010, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've stopped thinking actively about this game and NS for a while now but.. well. The issue with having a commander at all at a high level in NS1, apart from havign a commander being a nice idea and all, is that it just wasnt all that fun. A good commander was one who didnt screw up, not one who thought up the neatest ideas on the fly. Tactics and strategy on maps in NS1 were already mapped out by the team together through countless games and some closed session listen server run throughs and discussions. Then it was just executing and doing minor adjustments.
Now imagine NS2, where that same player had to be commander on the alien side as well. Or the team having to look for another commander-type player. The issues of putting together a stable team would increase enormously. And on public servers you'd need not one but TWO players interested in commanding and being able to do it at the same time to get a decent game.
Assuming you did get two players, one on each team, eager to command and allowed to do so you might have a good pub game. But how many games out of ten would that be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone is going to suck at first, but with two people commanding each game, there's going to be a lot more practice for commanders. There are large differences between the two races, but like Starcraft, once you get good at the mechanics for one, it's not that difficult to be pretty good with another race.
...and the commanders I played with didn't always do the same thing. Some people expanded RT quickly, some rushed for JP, some went for straight upgraded weapons + MS, some just went for an aggressive defense/offence on the other two hives with PGs and medpacks/turrets. I really don't think it will boil down to doing the same thing over and over (although players will need to learn some mechanics just like any RTS), especially since they are commanding players and are going up against another team of players.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->unless the actual commander gameplay gets more interesting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the key to NS2 being successful. The gameplay of the 2 sides' comms will be just as asymmetrical as the gameplay between the FPS players of both sides. The consequence of this is that the res-model has to be more symmetrical to be balanced appropriately (especially in competitive matches).
The comms now have builders/minions that can perform desired actions for them. They also have much more control over structures and chambers (moving/positioning/activated abilities). Then there is the management of the power grid or DI. Alongside all of this the comm still has the responsibility to formulate the overall strategy of the team. This includes scouting and intel of the opposing teams tech choices and countering as well as organizing players to perform coordinated tactics. This is a whole lot for any RTS fan to sink their teeth into.
Since NS2 is a hybrid FPS/RTS, you want to encourage players to experience both parts. With the teams being asymmetrical in gameplay (but not res), this effectively creates 4 different gameplay experiences available to a player. That doesn't even take into account the differences between exo-suit or JP and Onos/Fade/Lerk etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1806089:date=Nov 17 2010, 10:48 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Nov 17 2010, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've stopped thinking actively about this game and NS for a while now but.. well. The issue with having a commander at all at a high level in NS1, apart from havign a commander being a nice idea and all, is that it just wasnt all that fun. A good commander was one who didnt screw up, not one who thought up the neatest ideas on the fly. Tactics and strategy on maps in NS1 were already mapped out by the team together through countless games and some closed session listen server run throughs and discussions. Then it was just executing and doing minor adjustments.
Now imagine NS2, where that same player had to be commander on the alien side as well. Or the team having to look for another commander-type player. The issues of putting together a stable team would increase enormously. And on public servers you'd need not one but TWO players interested in commanding and being able to do it at the same time to get a decent game.
Assuming you did get two players, one on each team, eager to command and allowed to do so you might have a good pub game. But how many games out of ten would that be?
Yeah, this is definitely a problem in NS1. There isn't enough strategic variety. Every game is mostly the same. Even reactions to surprises are formulaic. The most strategy a marine commander can bring to bare is troop movement.
I think a big problem (or even THE big problem) is NS1 fades. The game is balanced entirely on one unit and aliens must have a fade. Once this enormous, glaring miasma of non-choice for 1/2 of all the teams in a <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b><i>strategy game</i></b></u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> is corrected, a lot of new mid-game variety will emerge.
Now, this must be backed up with new content otherwise aliens just get nerfed and lose their only strategy. NS1 Aliens really only have one meat thrasher unit. NS1 Onos haven't been scary since their hitbox was fixed and their hitpoints stayed below 1000/1000 because HL1 can't display hp values that big. I'm really hoping NS2 Onos will be the second viable alien meat thrasher unit so aliens have choice for offensive power. Then both lifeforms be given different strengths and weaknesses so they are distinguishable units and require different reactions from the marines.
I'd really like a third meat thrasher unit for even more choice, but a combination of cutesy, finesse based lerk + skulk + gorge + commander tactics would also work (and not require Unknown Worlds Entertainment to model, animate, and balance another unique alien class).
This is all completely understandable, considering NS1 was a free modification of another game. Nothing more can be said to defend Unknown Worlds Entertainment.
There are more problems of strategic variety in NS1, but I think the solution is to add more content (which seems very likely considering the three broad levels of tech for each side, alternate fires for every alien ability doubling options per lifeform, addons to marine assault rifle, AComm activated structure abilities, more upgrades for aliens....). So UWE is doing a pretty good job even though this is only alpha and half the game hasn't been released to the public.
<!--quoteo(post=1806067:date=Nov 17 2010, 07:04 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Nov 17 2010, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh.. the res systems may have become less asymmetric.. but I don't see any significant changes to the gameplay assymetry.
Seriously, unless you played gorge and dropped RTs regularly how has the game changed? You still need someone to drop a specific object in order to upgrade in a specific fashion. You're still free to ignore whoever is on the mic. You're still having to close in on the marines while they shoot you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, skulk leap is now only commander researchable.
And every AComm placed structure will have a "passive" ability, "triggerable" ability, and "targeted" ability. Only two of the structures in NS1 had more than one ability (Sensory chambers cloak and give scent of fear within a certain radius, Movement chambers amp energy regen and can teleport players) and only one had a triggerable ability (the Movement Chamber's teleport).
That's a pretty big expansion of the builder role, we're only in Alpha, and the last tier of tech doesn't even do anything yet. So we've seen about half or (more probably) seen less than half of what either commander can do.
The NS2 Alien Builder will have many more options than the NS1 Alien Builder, and will be making more choices more often. I rest my case.
Comments
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You seem to be writing large walls of text without making any coherent, concise point. When you can articulate a concise point of debate, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, what is up with the attitude? Why are you on these forums if there are so many idiots on here.
Even though by luck that mod is one of the most successful games out there, why not take example from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As aliens the fade in competitive matches is the be all end all. If other units are just clutter, what is the point of them? It makes for more linear strategy. If they don't work effectively, make them work...
Which mod are we talking about?
Because some people have high expectations from this game. I personally couldnt care less about the people.
That's not completely true. Sure most of the game in NS2 is centered around Fades, but that doesn't make the other stuff irrelevant. It takes a decent amount of investment to get to Fade and to counter the Fade. Some teams would use an early Lerk to help hamper the Marine team, Gorges are one of the more important lifeforms ever to cap res nodes, the Marines had to control enough of the map to have income for upgrades and shotguns, these are not clutter. They are supporting actors perhaps, but they are not clutter. Clutter would be something you can skip entirely and it have little to no consequence.
Back on topic, allow me summarize:
Side A) OMG more components are being mirrored on both sides! This means less asymmetry!
Side B) Marginal costs of asymmetry for easier understand/balance is necessary! And the core asymmetries aren't being altered so it's still asymmetrical enough!
Side C) shutup and let the devs work.
I think i'll go with option C for the rest of this thread because some people feel the need to be abusive rather than discussing a topic.
we got di, techpoints, a total new way to play the game and so on
it is not natural selection 1.2 its natural selection EVOLVED!!
think about a NEW game, the story is hundreds of years after ns1 happend, everything changed ... but the war goes on!
Onos are seen in late game when aliens have the resources to tank the marines or to counter HA. I don't get what you mean by chambers being used to full effectiveness though, as I always see 3 chambers being built, and often in spots that are hard for marines to kill but provide ESP/energy/redemption/heals from convenient paths.
I certainly hope you're not making too many assumptions of competetive play based only on Blind's commentaries (they sure are entertaining, but in no way in depth and mostly covers matches way past the era of active competetive NS). I think people making too many simplifications and assumptions is a part why a lot of top tier players are no longer posting here. By all means, questionize, critisize, ask tough questions and bring your own viewpoints to the discussion - I strongly encourage that-, but I wouldn't go making too many direct claims and statements without having experienced and experimented things myself thoroughly. It's easier to have an actual valuable discussion when one side doesn't have to keep correcting false assumptions and misconceptions all the time.
:)
---
As for the actual topic:
Yeah, the RTS asymmetry seems to be going down quite a bit. As I've said before, I find an acceptable way to keep the balancing process somewhat under control. It took probably some 5 years to really nail the balance in original NS and even then the balance varies way too much depending on individual skill levels and playercounts. I can't blame them if they don't want to do it the hard way on NS2. I don't know if it's possible to get two separate res models work to an acceptable extend within some reasonable time boundaries, but I certainly think UWE folks are in a pretty decent position to judge the alternatives after they've been involved in all the balancing process of NS1.
What I want to see is UWE making use of the good sides of symmetry now that it apparently is part of the plan. I'd like see a gameplay balance that allows variation in round structure, gameplay that allows different styles of play and more interaction between the teams on the RTS level. I want to see aliens being a bit more adaptive on their res game and less dependand on rigid res peaks.
The thing that mildly bothers me how both teams are res modelled a little between their NS1 counterparts. Usually I don't like picking the middle ground in gaming, it often ends up being rather bland without having any distinct and memorable characteristics. At worst it could mean that both teams are going to lack the versatility of marine res game (gun bias, upgrade bias, medpacking and all that) while still missing the good sides of alien res peak game (abusable for opponent, RFK distribution, challenges of situational team adaptation and so on).
Above all else, I just hope the dev team really considers the consequences for their changes. New things are good because we don't want a rehashed NS on a new engine, but use good judgment.
50, at max. more like 5.
I already knew that, just go alien and type 'give *weaponname*' in console.
My favourite is going Onos and typing 'give minigun'. You should have a 'black armour' for aliens as well, except it is a leather jacket, boots and a motorcycle.
The only thing that is the same between the two sides is that a) a commander exists and b) there is a shared resource system. The abilities, activities and philosophy behind commanding for the two sides are completely different.
Think of it like how Starcraft is an RTS with a minimap, minerals and gas, hotgroups, etc. for all sides but the races play very differently.
You didn't actually say anything was good or bad. You just repeated some facts. Which this community has known about (For many months, even years?) and discussed many times. So tell us your opinion. Is this one instance of increased symmetry good or bad? Otherwise you're obviously trolling by posting a controversial topic and leaving the community to discuss it (again).
Here's a response liking the increased symmetry.
Reasons:
1:
Less alien players have to sacrifice their FPS game so everyone else can have a chance at winning. In NS1, three players must go alien builder or aliens lose. Full stop, nobody disagrees here. In NS2, 1 player must go alien builder. On this one instance, I am heavily in favor of NS2's single alien builder (because I think underproviding mandatory roles is safer than providing too many. 1 is too little, 3 is too much.).
2:
I'm going to say it bluntly. NS1 has three castrated alien builders per game (a gorge can do ONE of the following: craft 1 chamber / 3 minutes, OR build 1 RT / 4 minutes, OR 1 hive / 4-6 minutes.). NS2 has one much more flexible, versatile, and powerful alien builder (They're building everything not a Hydra, every tech expansion, and researching every upgrade). There's more options more often and all the fun is condensed for one player. I know people are going to get burned because there's only alien builder per NS2 game. I know the one player who gets to be the alien builder will have more fun. On this one instance, I am barely in favor of NS2's single alien builder.
3:
Better balanced.
In NS1, the alien resource model is horribly inefficient. The NS1 marines are able to keep their cached resources below 100 (and are probably losing if they let the resources climb over 100 consistently). Load up NS1. Join the average 24 person server. Join Aliens. After five minutes, look at everyone's resources. Total them. Almost certainly over 100 resources not spent, very likely 200, probably 300-350, unlikely 400+. Because you can spend resources to get more resources later, continuously having 400 resources in the bank when the biggest possible expenditure is 75 is <i>terrrrrrribad</i>. On this one instance I am incredibly favoring NS2's single alien builder.
4:
More capable of being balanced. We've discussed this, we know it's true.
Asymmetry definitely has its perks. If there's none, the game really only has one team to experience. If we had two teams before, that's at least half the content completely cut out of the game. This is something the community should definitely be worried about, and worried about a lot.
I think 3-4 pros balances out the 1-2 cons (I think there's 3 pros + 1 con + 1 neutral change, but that's my opinion). A little bit of symmetry is alright if it provides a lot of benefits. And too much asymmetry can exist, though I think NS1 had a good amount of asymmetry or even not enough! :D
Im shocked it hasnt been said more, a HUGE draw to me was the asymmetric gameplay, it was almost 2 different games in one, I never got burnt out of playing because I could just play the other race and have a TOTALLY new experience.
Sometime I just dont want to worry about having to have a commander ya know? Then again, sometimes I just want to flex skulks with mad shottie skill.
I can tell you right now that its going to be the biggest drawback (for me) over NS1
I can tell you right now that its going to be the biggest drawback (for me) over NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
looks like your S.O.L
Hey, that's not nice. And you have terrible grammar.
Seriously, unless you played gorge and dropped RTs regularly how has the game changed? You still need someone to drop a specific object in order to upgrade in a specific fashion. You're still free to ignore whoever is on the mic. You're still having to close in on the marines while they shoot you.
I like the idea of a simple and easy accesable ns2 after launch to get a large player base, then make it more complex and difficult over the time of one year. That is comfy and can lead to greater gampelay changes than just taking 'old' stuff by force.
Now imagine NS2, where that same player had to be commander on the alien side as well. Or the team having to look for another commander-type player. The issues of putting together a stable team would increase enormously. And on public servers you'd need not one but TWO players interested in commanding and being able to do it at the same time to get a decent game.
Assuming you did get two players, one on each team, eager to command and allowed to do so you might have a good pub game. But how many games out of ten would that be?
Basically: logistics matter.
It is all opinion at this point. The game is not in a fully playable state.
When you state your opinion ... use the word opinion or a similar word.
That way you will not ruffle the feathers of people like me who say "It's all opinion now"
Fact 1
There are two commanders now. I don't think this will change and I think it was a good choice. <--See I said 'I think'..
For a new player in NS1 it was not obvious MULTIPLE people had to be gorge.
This would result in scenarios where no one played gorge or too many played it.
Which would result in loss and dissatisfaction.
I knew people who would only play marines for this reason alone.
Who knows maybe they will come up with another model in the end (voting for upgrades?)
I just hope it is simple.
Fact 2
The developers love this game and the concepts.
They want it to be a totally different game playing either side.
They also know that no matter how long anyone discusses game mechanics ... playtest is king ... stats are the words of the game gods.
So be patient. Voice your opinion. Make friends.
Now imagine NS2, where that same player had to be commander on the alien side as well. Or the team having to look for another commander-type player. The issues of putting together a stable team would increase enormously. And on public servers you'd need not one but TWO players interested in commanding and being able to do it at the same time to get a decent game.
Assuming you did get two players, one on each team, eager to command and allowed to do so you might have a good pub game. But how many games out of ten would that be?
Basically: logistics matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is the downside of having two commanders.
I still somewhat enjoy NS1 commanding, but I feel it's partitially because it puts me out of my comfort zone and into a role where I actually have to be audible and show leadership qualities. For someone who does that naturally it's probably a lot less exciting and challenging. I also doubt doing it on both sides would add anything to that unless the actual commander gameplay gets more interesting.
Now imagine NS2, where that same player had to be commander on the alien side as well. Or the team having to look for another commander-type player. The issues of putting together a stable team would increase enormously. And on public servers you'd need not one but TWO players interested in commanding and being able to do it at the same time to get a decent game.
Assuming you did get two players, one on each team, eager to command and allowed to do so you might have a good pub game. But how many games out of ten would that be?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone is going to suck at first, but with two people commanding each game, there's going to be a lot more practice for commanders. There are large differences between the two races, but like Starcraft, once you get good at the mechanics for one, it's not that difficult to be pretty good with another race.
...and the commanders I played with didn't always do the same thing. Some people expanded RT quickly, some rushed for JP, some went for straight upgraded weapons + MS, some just went for an aggressive defense/offence on the other two hives with PGs and medpacks/turrets. I really don't think it will boil down to doing the same thing over and over (although players will need to learn some mechanics just like any RTS), especially since they are commanding players and are going up against another team of players.
This is the key to NS2 being successful. The gameplay of the 2 sides' comms will be just as asymmetrical as the gameplay between the FPS players of both sides. The consequence of this is that the res-model has to be more symmetrical to be balanced appropriately (especially in competitive matches).
The comms now have builders/minions that can perform desired actions for them. They also have much more control over structures and chambers (moving/positioning/activated abilities). Then there is the management of the power grid or DI. Alongside all of this the comm still has the responsibility to formulate the overall strategy of the team. This includes scouting and intel of the opposing teams tech choices and countering as well as organizing players to perform coordinated tactics. This is a whole lot for any RTS fan to sink their teeth into.
Since NS2 is a hybrid FPS/RTS, you want to encourage players to experience both parts. With the teams being asymmetrical in gameplay (but not res), this effectively creates 4 different gameplay experiences available to a player. That doesn't even take into account the differences between exo-suit or JP and Onos/Fade/Lerk etc.
This is just my opinion.
Now imagine NS2, where that same player had to be commander on the alien side as well. Or the team having to look for another commander-type player. The issues of putting together a stable team would increase enormously. And on public servers you'd need not one but TWO players interested in commanding and being able to do it at the same time to get a decent game.
Assuming you did get two players, one on each team, eager to command and allowed to do so you might have a good pub game. But how many games out of ten would that be?
Basically: logistics matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is definitely a problem in NS1. There isn't enough strategic variety. Every game is mostly the same. Even reactions to surprises are formulaic. The most strategy a marine commander can bring to bare is troop movement.
I think a big problem (or even THE big problem) is NS1 fades. The game is balanced entirely on one unit and aliens must have a fade. Once this enormous, glaring miasma of non-choice for 1/2 of all the teams in a <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b><i>strategy game</i></b></u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> is corrected, a lot of new mid-game variety will emerge.
Now, this must be backed up with new content otherwise aliens just get nerfed and lose their only strategy. NS1 Aliens really only have one meat thrasher unit. NS1 Onos haven't been scary since their hitbox was fixed and their hitpoints stayed below 1000/1000 because HL1 can't display hp values that big. I'm really hoping NS2 Onos will be the second viable alien meat thrasher unit so aliens have choice for offensive power. Then both lifeforms be given different strengths and weaknesses so they are distinguishable units and require different reactions from the marines.
I'd really like a third meat thrasher unit for even more choice, but a combination of cutesy, finesse based lerk + skulk + gorge + commander tactics would also work (and not require Unknown Worlds Entertainment to model, animate, and balance another unique alien class).
This is all completely understandable, considering NS1 was a free modification of another game. Nothing more can be said to defend Unknown Worlds Entertainment.
There are more problems of strategic variety in NS1, but I think the solution is to add more content (which seems very likely considering the three broad levels of tech for each side, alternate fires for every alien ability doubling options per lifeform, addons to marine assault rifle, AComm activated structure abilities, more upgrades for aliens....). So UWE is doing a pretty good job even though this is only alpha and half the game hasn't been released to the public.
Seriously, unless you played gorge and dropped RTs regularly how has the game changed? You still need someone to drop a specific object in order to upgrade in a specific fashion. You're still free to ignore whoever is on the mic. You're still having to close in on the marines while they shoot you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, skulk leap is now only commander researchable.
And every AComm placed structure will have a "passive" ability, "triggerable" ability, and "targeted" ability. Only two of the structures in NS1 had more than one ability (Sensory chambers cloak and give scent of fear within a certain radius, Movement chambers amp energy regen and can teleport players) and only one had a triggerable ability (the Movement Chamber's teleport).
That's a pretty big expansion of the builder role, we're only in Alpha, and the last tier of tech doesn't even do anything yet. So we've seen about half or (more probably) seen less than half of what either commander can do.
The NS2 Alien Builder will have many more options than the NS1 Alien Builder, and will be making more choices more often. I rest my case.