<!--quoteo(post=1803404:date=Oct 28 2010, 12:16 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Oct 28 2010, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->meh, i intended this as semi-humorous, but it sure got srs bsns in here quick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes
<!--quoteo(post=1803426:date=Oct 28 2010, 07:04 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Oct 28 2010, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the flamethrower, but I don't know why the flamethrower particles are children of the player's scene node... makes it look very unnatural.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. And that the angle of the flame doesn't feel quite right from the muzzle or general alignment of weapon.
I couldn't seem to get it, but as far as I know it is something like:
- Build second command centre - Upgrade to command facility - Build armoury - Upgrade to advanced armoury - Upgrade for advanced research - Research flamethrower
How on earth do you expect any new player to deal with that?
It is one thing in rts games that you build one building, it allows you to build others which can then allow you to build from them. It is another having some complicated process by which you have to keep searching for upgrades between different buildings.
There needs to be some sort of civilisation hierarchy screen. So you know what is built and what is required to get to the next stage or something. You should be able to click on upgrades within it rather than buildings as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1803544:date=Oct 28 2010, 09:26 AM:name=######beard the Pirate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (######beard the Pirate @ Oct 28 2010, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you get the flamethrower? No option to research it in the armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need to upgrade the armory first with a weapons module.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2010
The techtree is somewhat cumbersome though, finding your way trough the interface is quite a choir. But learning is part of the process I guess and heck it might even change...
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1803512:date=Oct 28 2010, 08:57 AM:name=StormApan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StormApan @ Oct 28 2010, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This. And that the angle of the flame doesn't feel quite right from the muzzle or general alignment of weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup!
As for getting the flamethrower researched, don't forget that some of those techs don't have icons in the commander window. Highlight the blank squares that are off-colored to find secret research ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1803550:date=Oct 28 2010, 02:34 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 28 2010, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is very complicated....
I couldn't seem to get it, but as far as I know it is something like:
- Build second command centre - Upgrade to command facility - Build armoury - Upgrade to advanced armoury - Upgrade for advanced research - Research flamethrower
How on earth do you expect any new player to deal with that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya just a bit confusing xD
Maybe their can be a way to click on the flamethrower icon as something you want to research, and then all intermediate research fires off automatically, with eta to flamethrower :D
The flamethrower is indeed very work in progress. There has been very little balance work done on it yet, the flame FX are still being sorted, some animation work is still being done, and the flame will eventually lag behind when you move the weapon back and forth, rather then just following the weapon as it does now.
As far as researching these, I'm not entirely sure what the full process is. I do know that for researching any higher tech you need to upgrade the armory to an advanced armory, which allows it to have the different upgrade modules placed on it. There is a weapon module, which allows for more advanced weapons like the flamethrower, and prototype module, which will allow advanced equipment such as jetpacks and heavy armor. So, rather then building a separate prototype lab building like in NS1, that is now a separate module that goes on top of the armory. I think that is pretty straightforward, but there may be some in between steps required at the moment to do those (that list of nescessary steps posted here does look pretty elaborate) so I imagine it will get more streamlined to be more intuitive as Charlie focuses on the researching tech side again.
Currently it means that infinite combinations of building structures and upgrading them will in turn give access to new weapons. The way it should be is you build something, that then gives you access to something else you can build. In turn you can then build off of that or upgrade it.
As it stands you have to have two of the same type of building to have an advanced armoury, then you have to upgrade one of them, then that gives you access to upgrades on the armoury which in turn gives access to weapons upgrades.
Can no one see the complication in that? It is like two steps forward one step back, and does not tell the player what he can and cannot build. Especially in a logical way..
I understand that you now have a 3 hive vs 3 command chair deal going on here. But if it is to be 'UNDERSTANDABLE' (such an important word) it needs some serious explaining, or a way for new players to understand how to access it.
@Cory: So if there are different modules, will it require the marines to have more than one armory to access the modules? (i.e. Starcraft where buildings like Starports have two optional addons that the player must choose between - building two starports to access both at once) Personally I think this seems kind of redundant if we're already looking at having this be a "2 comm chair" research. However, if it's not a matter of choosing which module, why is there an emphasis on it being a module, and why not refer to it as a simple tech research? Modules to me imply that they're optional items that you choose between; expansions that all fit into the same slot. (and even if they're custom special add-ons instead of stock parts, how many mods are you gonna duct-tape onto one building? Where do they even FIT since most of the building is covered in opening/closing arms?)
On the point of getting to upgrades, half the time I can't even tell what menu I'm in. I'd love to see some visual cue in the little buttons in the com's lower right part of the screen. Right now if I click a "build" submenu on a MAC/Drifter or an "upgrades" submenu on a building, it's difficult to see what's changed. Yes, the icons/labels do change, but they all still look very much the same. I've found myself looking for the Build button while I'm already in the Build submenu simply because I forgot I moved there and it looks so similar.
Maybe at least as a placeholder, change the icons in a submenu to have a green base instead of a blue one for marines, and a yellow or red base for aliens instead of the orange. This way the player is instantly notified/reminded that they're in the submenu. In the long run, maybe work on having the icons stand out a bit more from each other. Using starcraft again, the small images on each button were so iconic that you could tell at a glance which was which. You could also instantly tell if you were looking at buildings, commands, or upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1803596:date=Oct 28 2010, 10:42 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Oct 28 2010, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Cory: So if there are different modules, will it require the marines to have more than one armory to access the modules? (i.e. Starcraft where buildings like Starports have two optional addons that the player must choose between - building two starports to access both at once) Personally I think this seems kind of redundant if we're already looking at having this be a "2 comm chair" research. However, if it's not a matter of choosing which module, why is there an emphasis on it being a module, and why not refer to it as a simple tech research? Modules to me imply that they're optional items that you choose between; expansions that all fit into the same slot. (and even if they're custom special add-ons instead of stock parts, how many mods are you gonna duct-tape onto one building? Where do they even FIT since most of the building is covered in opening/closing arms?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The modules go on the top of the armory. And only one module fits on top of an Armory. Its important to have a visual representation of what tech the marines have, one reason being that it allows the aliens the ability to see where the marines are at with tech, and they can choose if they want to try and keep marinesfrom having jetpacks for example, by destroying the armory with the prototype module.
Once one module has been built, I'm pretty sure the plan is that the new tech is available at any armory, not just the one with the module on it. And yes, if you want to have both advanced weapons and advanced equipment, you need 2 armories with different modules on each. But that's still less then having an arms lab, prototype lab and armory in NS1.
Not sure if these are in the latest patch or set up properly or not, but if you haven't seen them they look and work like this concept:
I and I expect no one else has really noticed that... whether or not it is working, I still think that it communicates nothing to the player besides. 'This structure looks slightly different'.
It is great that there is that level of detail, but it lacks communication. Especially because this game is so fast and visually rich, and infinite other factors.
What you are suggesting is extremely complicated, and no one fresh into the command chair is going to be able to handle it.
<!--quoteo(post=1803606:date=Oct 28 2010, 06:00 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Oct 28 2010, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The modules go on the top of the armory. And only one module fits on top of an Armory. Its important to have a visual representation of what tech the marines have, one reason being that it allows the aliens the ability to see where the marines are at with tech, and they can choose if they want to try and keep marinesfrom having jetpacks for example, by destroying the armory with the prototype module.
Once one module has been built, I'm pretty sure the plan is that the new tech is available at any armory, not just the one with the module on it. And yes, if you want to have both advanced weapons and advanced equipment, you need 2 armories with different modules on each. But that's still less then having an arms lab, prototype lab and armory in NS1.
Not sure if these are in the latest patch or set up properly or not, but if you haven't seen them they look and work like this concept:
[attachment=35960:Armory_Addons.jpg]
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First reaction to the image: THEY LOOK LIKE CUTE LITTLE HATS! lol
Hmm I'm still not sure I like the 2x Comm chair 2x functional armories just to get both armor and tech. Seems a LOT more complicated than the NS1 tech tree.
Either have to build two armories in one base to safely get both trees, which is silly, or forcing the marines to expand and ahve a second armory operational to get the other tree. Alarm bells are going off in my head atm
Well I am trying to make use of this degree in design by making some suggestions. It is all about working around people, not getting people to work around stuff.
Design for the extremes (your mum playing) and the rest take care of themselves.
It is not a matter of being complicated, it is how complicated is made understandable. (Noob friendly does not mean 'simplification').
If you stick someone in the comm chair with the current UI, it is (sorry to say) awful. People will spend more and more time trying to remember upgrade routes to take, rather than concentrating on the battlefield and telling players what to do.
Which is exactly what online gaming is about. Communication.
<b> Seriously.. you could just have (instead of all the menus bottom right) a hierarchical menu like civ. You bring it up to build stuff, and place it down. All the upgrades/build could then be down to clicking on structures. Think outside of the box.</b>
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1803623:date=Oct 28 2010, 11:58 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Oct 28 2010, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First reaction to the image: THEY LOOK LIKE CUTE LITTLE HATS! lol
Hmm I'm still not sure I like the 2x Comm chair 2x functional armories just to get both armor and tech. Seems a LOT more complicated than the NS1 tech tree.
Either have to build two armories in one base to safely get both trees, which is silly, or forcing the marines to expand and ahve a second armory operational to get the other tree. Alarm bells are going off in my head atm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed, they make hats for the armory to taunt us. But refuse to give us gorge hats and plushies! What is up with that Charlie, do my minions need to revisit the UWE cookiejar?
Comments
yes
This. And that the angle of the flame doesn't feel quite right from the muzzle or general alignment of weapon.
I couldn't seem to get it, but as far as I know it is something like:
- Build second command centre
- Upgrade to command facility
- Build armoury
- Upgrade to advanced armoury
- Upgrade for advanced research
- Research flamethrower
How on earth do you expect any new player to deal with that?
It is one thing in rts games that you build one building, it allows you to build others which can then allow you to build from them. It is another having some complicated process by which you have to keep searching for upgrades between different buildings.
There needs to be some sort of civilisation hierarchy screen. So you know what is built and what is required to get to the next stage or something. You should be able to click on upgrades within it rather than buildings as well.
You need to upgrade the armory first with a weapons module.
Yup!
I couldn't seem to get it, but as far as I know it is something like:
- Build second command centre
- Upgrade to command facility
- Build armoury
- Upgrade to advanced armoury
- Upgrade for advanced research
- Research flamethrower
How on earth do you expect any new player to deal with that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya just a bit confusing xD
Maybe their can be a way to click on the flamethrower icon as something you want to research, and then all intermediate research fires off automatically, with eta to flamethrower :D
As far as researching these, I'm not entirely sure what the full process is. I do know that for researching any higher tech you need to upgrade the armory to an advanced armory, which allows it to have the different upgrade modules placed on it. There is a weapon module, which allows for more advanced weapons like the flamethrower, and prototype module, which will allow advanced equipment such as jetpacks and heavy armor. So, rather then building a separate prototype lab building like in NS1, that is now a separate module that goes on top of the armory. I think that is pretty straightforward, but there may be some in between steps required at the moment to do those (that list of nescessary steps posted here does look pretty elaborate) so I imagine it will get more streamlined to be more intuitive as Charlie focuses on the researching tech side again.
--Cory
But really. like i said, i fumbled my way through it but i feel the tree is pretty intuitive if the breadcrumbs got me what i was after.
Menu hierarchy should not be that complicated.
Currently it means that infinite combinations of building structures and upgrading them will in turn give access to new weapons. The way it should be is you build something, that then gives you access to something else you can build. In turn you can then build off of that or upgrade it.
As it stands you have to have two of the same type of building to have an advanced armoury, then you have to upgrade one of them, then that gives you access to upgrades on the armoury which in turn gives access to weapons upgrades.
Can no one see the complication in that? It is like two steps forward one step back, and does not tell the player what he can and cannot build. Especially in a logical way..
I understand that you now have a 3 hive vs 3 command chair deal going on here. But if it is to be 'UNDERSTANDABLE' (such an important word) it needs some serious explaining, or a way for new players to understand how to access it.
If you want some visuals, here:
<img src="http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/374/jpgflame.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
By tier method, I mean similar to civilisation:
<img src="http://learninggamedev.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/civ3advisor.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Personally I think this seems kind of redundant if we're already looking at having this be a "2 comm chair" research. However, if it's not a matter of choosing which module, why is there an emphasis on it being a module, and why not refer to it as a simple tech research? Modules to me imply that they're optional items that you choose between; expansions that all fit into the same slot. (and even if they're custom special add-ons instead of stock parts, how many mods are you gonna duct-tape onto one building? Where do they even FIT since most of the building is covered in opening/closing arms?)
On the point of getting to upgrades, half the time I can't even tell what menu I'm in. I'd love to see some visual cue in the little buttons in the com's lower right part of the screen. Right now if I click a "build" submenu on a MAC/Drifter or an "upgrades" submenu on a building, it's difficult to see what's changed. Yes, the icons/labels do change, but they all still look very much the same. I've found myself looking for the Build button while I'm already in the Build submenu simply because I forgot I moved there and it looks so similar.
Maybe at least as a placeholder, change the icons in a submenu to have a green base instead of a blue one for marines, and a yellow or red base for aliens instead of the orange. This way the player is instantly notified/reminded that they're in the submenu. In the long run, maybe work on having the icons stand out a bit more from each other. Using starcraft again, the small images on each button were so iconic that you could tell at a glance which was which. You could also instantly tell if you were looking at buildings, commands, or upgrades.
Personally I think this seems kind of redundant if we're already looking at having this be a "2 comm chair" research. However, if it's not a matter of choosing which module, why is there an emphasis on it being a module, and why not refer to it as a simple tech research? Modules to me imply that they're optional items that you choose between; expansions that all fit into the same slot. (and even if they're custom special add-ons instead of stock parts, how many mods are you gonna duct-tape onto one building? Where do they even FIT since most of the building is covered in opening/closing arms?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The modules go on the top of the armory. And only one module fits on top of an Armory. Its important to have a visual representation of what tech the marines have, one reason being that it allows the aliens the ability to see where the marines are at with tech, and they can choose if they want to try and keep marinesfrom having jetpacks for example, by destroying the armory with the prototype module.
Once one module has been built, I'm pretty sure the plan is that the new tech is available at any armory, not just the one with the module on it. And yes, if you want to have both advanced weapons and advanced equipment, you need 2 armories with different modules on each. But that's still less then having an arms lab, prototype lab and armory in NS1.
Not sure if these are in the latest patch or set up properly or not, but if you haven't seen them they look and work like this concept:
[attachment=35960:Armory_Addons.jpg]
--Cory
It is great that there is that level of detail, but it lacks communication. Especially because this game is so fast and visually rich, and infinite other factors.
What you are suggesting is extremely complicated, and no one fresh into the command chair is going to be able to handle it.
Once one module has been built, I'm pretty sure the plan is that the new tech is available at any armory, not just the one with the module on it. And yes, if you want to have both advanced weapons and advanced equipment, you need 2 armories with different modules on each. But that's still less then having an arms lab, prototype lab and armory in NS1.
Not sure if these are in the latest patch or set up properly or not, but if you haven't seen them they look and work like this concept:
[attachment=35960:Armory_Addons.jpg]
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First reaction to the image: THEY LOOK LIKE CUTE LITTLE HATS! lol
Hmm I'm still not sure I like the 2x Comm chair 2x functional armories just to get both armor and tech. Seems a LOT more complicated than the NS1 tech tree.
Either have to build two armories in one base to safely get both trees, which is silly, or forcing the marines to expand and ahve a second armory operational to get the other tree. Alarm bells are going off in my head atm
Design for the extremes (your mum playing) and the rest take care of themselves.
It is not a matter of being complicated, it is how complicated is made understandable. (Noob friendly does not mean 'simplification').
If you stick someone in the comm chair with the current UI, it is (sorry to say) awful. People will spend more and more time trying to remember upgrade routes to take, rather than concentrating on the battlefield and telling players what to do.
Which is exactly what online gaming is about. Communication.
<b>
Seriously.. you could just have (instead of all the menus bottom right) a hierarchical menu like civ. You bring it up to build stuff, and place it down. All the upgrades/build could then be down to clicking on structures. Think outside of the box.</b>
Hmm I'm still not sure I like the 2x Comm chair 2x functional armories just to get both armor and tech. Seems a LOT more complicated than the NS1 tech tree.
Either have to build two armories in one base to safely get both trees, which is silly, or forcing the marines to expand and ahve a second armory operational to get the other tree. Alarm bells are going off in my head atm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, they make hats for the armory to taunt us. But refuse to give us gorge hats and plushies! What is up with that Charlie, do my minions need to revisit the UWE cookiejar?