Impairment of player abilities and senses
Pyromaniac
Join Date: 2009-02-20 Member: 66498Members
Join Date: 2009-02-20 Member: 66498Members
<div class="IPBDescription">just say no</div>There seems to be a lot of things being worked on in NS2 that inhibit the abilities or senses of a player. In light of the recent twitter posts that show that the devs are adding more abilities like this, I felt that it should be discussed if this is really a step in the right direction.
The reason these abilities concern me is impairment of abilities and senses seem to annoy players much more than their opponent having an enhanced ability, or in some cases annoy players for almost no reason. Being impaired in any game creates a sense of helplessness and frustration with the game. People love the feeling of being in complete control of their player and the dynamic is creates, this is why jump and air control are so often praised. As long as this feeling of complete control is maintained a player can almost always feel like they could have done something different to live longer in a certain situation, and the player blames their death on himself and learns from this to improve their game. Inhibiting a player destroys this feeling and instead just makes them annoyed and frustrated with the fact that they have lost that sense of control. The devs spoke of removing devour because it removes a player from the game and frustrates them, but inhibiting a player is essentially the same thing to a lesser extent, and in a way even worse because the player is partially removed from the game before they are destined for death. Another concern is that since there are large amount of these abilities being worked on, much of the game could be reduced to impairing an opponent and killing them in a state of disarray rather than skilled combat.
In short: being impaired is annoying and frustrating, give the other player an enhancement for them to have fun with being more powerful instead. Also, don't add arbitrary inhibitions like motion blur and muffled sound, it's just as annoying and even more pointless.
<b>List of inhibitory effects in NS2</b> (note: these obviously aren't set in stone, but they are being worked on. Some also haven't been detailed but their name suggests impairment):
near death sound muffling
babblers obscuring vision
skulk view blur
drifter flare
fade's sounds being in wrong places (mentioned in interview)
shade blind
shade cloak
onos stomp
feint
disrupt
more to come?
I may have left some out.
The reason these abilities concern me is impairment of abilities and senses seem to annoy players much more than their opponent having an enhanced ability, or in some cases annoy players for almost no reason. Being impaired in any game creates a sense of helplessness and frustration with the game. People love the feeling of being in complete control of their player and the dynamic is creates, this is why jump and air control are so often praised. As long as this feeling of complete control is maintained a player can almost always feel like they could have done something different to live longer in a certain situation, and the player blames their death on himself and learns from this to improve their game. Inhibiting a player destroys this feeling and instead just makes them annoyed and frustrated with the fact that they have lost that sense of control. The devs spoke of removing devour because it removes a player from the game and frustrates them, but inhibiting a player is essentially the same thing to a lesser extent, and in a way even worse because the player is partially removed from the game before they are destined for death. Another concern is that since there are large amount of these abilities being worked on, much of the game could be reduced to impairing an opponent and killing them in a state of disarray rather than skilled combat.
In short: being impaired is annoying and frustrating, give the other player an enhancement for them to have fun with being more powerful instead. Also, don't add arbitrary inhibitions like motion blur and muffled sound, it's just as annoying and even more pointless.
<b>List of inhibitory effects in NS2</b> (note: these obviously aren't set in stone, but they are being worked on. Some also haven't been detailed but their name suggests impairment):
near death sound muffling
babblers obscuring vision
skulk view blur
drifter flare
fade's sounds being in wrong places (mentioned in interview)
shade blind
shade cloak
onos stomp
feint
disrupt
more to come?
I may have left some out.
Comments
You don't know what most of that stuff even does yet.
You don't know what most of that stuff even does yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok there was one that was ambiguous so I removed it. Most of that stuff has been talked about and the two or three that haven't are almost surely some type of impairing ability. I included a disclaimer to take those with a grain of salt anyway. regardless of how many there are, the devs should stay away from them.
What they did say was they didnt want to take away control, the reason why stomp and devour isnt in Ns2.
I haven't seen any complaints about how Boomer vomit in L4D has a blinding effect...and games like DOTA have dozens of moves that stun, slow, prevent other moves, and otherwise impair a player's action. It can suck when they happen in sequence, but a part of the game is in avoiding those situations.
I'll agree you don't want to overdo it, because too much loss of control (either duration or magnitude of the debuff) does take the fun out for the receiving player.
descriptions of abilities from devs aren't vague rumors. once again, take the list with a grain of salt or just ignore it if you'd like, the argument is still entirely relevant. It's better to start the discussion sooner than later when these things already have used the time and money to be fully developed. The discussion doesn't have to be about specific abilities.
Nothing worse than getting kitted out in heavy armour to spend 5 minutes slowly being devoured by an onos.
As long as these effects are subtle i have no problem with them being added at all, they could give the game player the feel that they are still a human/organism that most gamers to the game might recognize. Since all of their previous actions showed that UWE is trying to make the game easy for almost any casual fps gamer to pick up and get into easier, most gamers today are already familiar with slight motion blur, disorienting effects like flashbang/smoke grenades so i don't think it would particularly frustrate players to a significant extent who are even new to NS2 for the first time. As long as these effects are mostly kept subtle are fine. For the intentional disorienting ones like babblers will quickly teach players how to avoid/survive those situations.
I just wanna give a list of impairment of senses I have experienced in some games
tunnel vision at high velocity in Need for Speed: Shift; this only supports the common tunnel vision you experience even during play and helps you to stay in control. Can't be disabled.
tinnitus after beeing near to an explosion in Soldat; can be disabled
screen shagging beeing hit in Quake Live; can be disabled
screen shagging beeing hit in Alien Swarm; can be disabled
beeing drunk, low hp in GTA 4, can't be disabled
spells with STUN effects in Blizzard's games - no comment here (games are build arround those ;))
screen shagging in Warzone 2100 while another player is leveling the urban maps, can't be disabled and is just ###### anyoing - you can't give proper orders anymore, neither select single units.
all in Fallout 3, well it is single player
NS___
Sporeclouds
Stomp
Webs
Devour
Paralyze
Field Observatory gone; no more Motion Tracking
Static Field (combat mod)
Blinding Surge (combat mod)
No HP
I tried not to judge them here, but it is quite clear why you can disable some (and have to if you don't want to get buried)
But you have to make some differences, so I think it's not so easy to just say "I like getting weaker in random game"
- affected by an attack casted on you / the area you are in
- affected by just having low hp
- multiplayer hunting or singleplayer 'adventure'
In NS I like that I can obtain abilities that can stun the enemy or sharpen my senses (wallhack, hivesight), and still beeing deadly with only one HP. Limited to poor control over your character compared to real life body control its not wrong to display the surroundings clear and pure.
Also NS gameplay is very subtle, and not just "buy flashbang use flashbang".
I'd like the devs to approximate those features in NS2, but I hate it when a game wants to confer any effect on the player model through screen / sound effects on the player. This is just bad gamedesign for me and should be buried until data-link and 3D-in-brain simulation.
Does not matter if impairment comes natural from within or from the outside.
Having a game which robotifies the character you play making "it" immune just aint real.
I'm all for impairment, makes for a much more "full of life" experience.
Are you kidding? That's not impairment, that's distraction and deception. That's <i>perfectly acceptable</i>. People distract and deceive in video games (and life) in order to get ahead - and if the fade receives an ability to do so, then why not?
Never mind the fact that the idea is <b>awesome</b>.
Yeah, well, Charlie did mention a few times that they want to stay away from gimmicks that take away control form the player, so if these kinds of mechanics do exist in the game they will- as you said- probably be subtle and well implemented, so i wouldn't be worried.
As for the topic I agree that the effects should be minimal and with a reason (a soft counter to something).
Besides there are lots of problems with the first post. You didn't post any evidence that shows people hate anything that impairs in game senses/movement etc. If we look at popular FPS games we'll find many such features. In LFD2 e.g., the main way to win as zombies is to incapacitate the human team. The main attacks of 3/5 zombies take control of human players movement (charger/jockey/spitter) and the boomer blinds people for a short while. There are also many different on screen effects which impair your ability to see and move. I've never seen anybody complain about that because there are all sorts of tactics to avoid the attacks and counter them. They are understood by players to be part of the gameplay, if a zombie grabs you then of course thats going to impair your movement. If you are a moment from death it makes perfect sense to be visually and physically impaired. Back to NS2 - Don't want to be visually impaired by bablers? Then avoid or kill them and their Crag base. <b>Nothing should be frustrating if there is a way to avoid and counter it.</b> If you want full control at all times then play on your own server with god mode and no clip on.
I have nothing against sensory impairments, or even control impairments, if they are small enough, or there is no risk with it if you just stay in group.
For example, I HATE flashbangs in css, it makes you completely blind for extended amounts of times (even if you look away and close your eyes cursing whoever think its fun to throw them). You cant hear, so that wont help you survive either. All you can do is litterally stay still rotating to see the name at crosshair pop up (got some kilsl that way), or running straight into a corner getting stuck and killed. That means it takes no skill at all to kill someone that is flashed. All you have to do is look at radar, see your team mate died in that building, throw a nade and then go in scoring kills.
In l4d however, they constantly impair vision, trough either darkness, or a puke overlay. Sometimes you get strangled or punced aswell, but if you stay in a group there is almost no risk with that. Granted I played with bots (and players) who just walked away, then realised I am gone, return and do nothing. When you die you also get extended life, by being immobile and bad accuracy, but stilled allowed to shoot. And I have no problem with either of the impairments (the incapacitate would be annoying if it wasnt that the option was death)
tl;dr
My point is, aslong as the impairment isnt total it is ok. Muffled sounds, an overlay, or even lights going out in a room (you got flashlights and sound). What I dont want is constant muffled sounds during near death, it is actually kinda annoying if you survive a long time. Better if it is every time you are hit and down to under 10 hp, but then fade back after a few seconds.
And keep the impairments not be lethal if you use teamwork and/or the player using it isnt skilled enough.
And it's all a matter of degree, impairment can be gameplay enhancing it can be annoying, we'll have to wait and see. (Complete loss of control is annoying, it's an absolute, which is why it's rarely a good idea).
If you want to hear random sounds record ns2 sounds and play it background in the long run people are able to predict how the fade can come and the "sounds" are no more than hindrance. Also kinda kills the idea of "silence fade".
So i don't see anything wrong with NS2 expanding in that regards, it adds flavour to the gameplay instead of "just making your opponent stronger so he insta-gibs you" which is lame and kinda more frustrating. In many cases it even adds atmosphere to the game, take the sound from Bad Company2 for example, if something explodes near you it makes you basicly go deaf for a little bit which is also an impairment of a player sense but one that's really awesome.
As long as there isn't too many of these abilities so that you end up beeing constantly blinded/deaf/immobile/silenced i don't see anything wrong with it...
What they did say was they didnt want to take away control, the reason why stomp and devour isnt in Ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp is still in NS2.
Never mind the fact that the idea is <b>awesome</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the idea is pretty bad actually. I listed it as impairing because while it doesn't remove a sense, it makes it useless for that situation. Since the fade is going to teleport from place to place, the only thing a player had to keep track of him is the sound of him teleporting. When that is thrown out of the equation (can't be trusted), it just turns aiming into guesswork.
Web is 3rd hive and stomp is the biggest reason that makes the least used lifeform in the game see at least some use. NS hasn't had any widely used stuns/impairments since 1.0 era. Even back then web was used only if aliens somehow reached 2nd hive and marines still were able to avoid getting locked down to their defensive positions.
Rarely used impairment better.