<!--QuoteBegin--.eLiMiNaToR.+Dec 11 2002, 10:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (.eLiMiNaToR. @ Dec 11 2002, 10:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Outcome Decided By The First 5-10 Minutes Of Play... No, I once played with 3 hives we siege hive from vent rushed other two with HMG gg marines win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In all but a couple memorable games I've played, the outcome was decided by the first crucial 5-10 minutes. Whichever team screws up has to suffer, as one person put it, from a snowball effect at the expense of whatever minor errors they made.
And of course, once one team has two hives, the outcome is decided. The fades overpower marines, or the marines teleporting in like mad overpower skulks/lerks.
Also, the fact that aliens CAN rush and kill off all the marines in the first part of the game (ending it within a few minutes if they get lucky) is obscene enough as it is, but marine rushing being practically encouraged by the game mechanics is in some ways even worse.
If the Marine team is good, but had a slow start there is often the swinging pendulum effects during the midgame. Say, Marines have 1 Hive and Kharaa have 2, the game swings heavily in the favor of the couple of Fades messing up all the heavily guarded RP's and Marine forward bases. That is until Marins get HMG's and/or HA's then the momentum swings back toward the Marine's side. Basically all the Marines have to do to win is hold a Hive until they get the majority of their team with HMG's HA's or both.
I've noticed this sort of rushing based games more and more frequently and I think it would probably be due to the fact that people are getting better. Commanders on both sides know the only good defense is a strong offense and so must rush to take whatever they can at the beginning. The only game I find more boring than losing to a Skulk rush would be the Marines have 2 hives and sloooooooowly take all the RP to kill the third hive. Usually never get a single upgrade. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Doombringer i think your looking at it the wrong way round.
I suggest we need it make it easier for aliens to come back from 2 hives camped by marines and similary easier for marines to take on fade +umbra combo. This will make the middle game MUCH more exciting.
Provided you have good marines and had a reasonable stratagy for capturing res. If you can get up a group of HA/HMG or even just a sneaky group of LA/LMG you can siegine one hive.
The main problem I see is poor commanding when they feel they've lost, when you think you've lost don't go 'ho no must protect base!'
This WILL result in a loss. Worse it results in a long drawn out end game that you cannot possibly win. I've taken over a game as com when they had 2 hives, I got two guys up in totally un-upgraded HA/HMG and one HA/GL (some people really need to look at the upgrades more often), by which time we'd just lost the 3rd hive. I then managed to siege two of their hives with my Heavy team, as the aliens were busy panicking over the invincible marine group sieging their precious hives the previous com sneaked into their other hardly defended hive, I spam ammo he kills hive..
Next thing the marines know they're going 'commander what is that pling pling pling noise?' Turnaround took about 30 mins and thoughout all of it we had fades/skulks attempting to break down the door of our start base, luckily the marines spawning managed to keep them at bay.
Honestly though the reason you never see turnaround is that the comms are all building too many sodding turrets, if they do acctually manage to grab two hives them hives are a SWINE to take back cos they've got about 8 turrets in.
If they don't take two hives they can't go offencive cos they aint got enough res cos they've spent it all on turrets which are completly useless at doing anything other than slowing the fades down. The end game then takes about half a day and the marines have no hope unless they let the turrets slow while charing and save res up for HA/HMG and then try and break out and take hives down.
Sadly they rarely do and it just streches a game out for an extra hour or so.
Well, that's what I was saying. If the marines have two hives locked down, the aliens are in a pickle and need a boost. They'll need something to last against HA/HMG. If the aliens have all three hives, the marines are nearly done for. They'll need new toys to fight the good fight against spores/bile-bomb/Onos.
A Fade + umbra isn't nearly as bad as a 3rd-hive Fade + Lerk combo doing umbra, spores, bile-bomb plus cloaking. If the Onos come in with primal scream... eep.
The "middle" of the game is a bit different for the two sides. Aliens have one spawn point at first: their initial hive. Therefore, the marines having two hives under control is basically like the aliens having all three hives and going against the marine spawn. I guess you can say the marine spawn is like the marines' "third hive", although all their bases are much more portable.
But don't get me wrong.. I'm undecided if the game should be changed any, I'm just thinking out loud <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
"I come back to you now, at the turn of the tide."
I think most people wish to quit when playing alien and the marines have two hives and HA + HMG for most of their team. You can come back from if you're lucky and the marines mess up BUT how often will it happen? 1 time in 10? 1 time in 20? Most just don't want to have to play backs against the wall, dying 10 times to the minute for no real effect and having no fun.
I've seen games where marines could have ended the game quicker but decided to drag it out so they could have the "cool weapons and toys". the aliens weren't exactly happy to be toyed aorund with like that and all either ready-rommed or quit the server.
sometimes people want to quit too early when you can fight back but similary some people seem to thrive on the misery that is losing badly and won't stop regardless of how dull and one-sided the game has become.
"yes siree! I love being a skulk and throwing myself at HA + HMG marines just so I can die once again, fifteenth time in the last two minutes!"
or
"golly going gorge and building all these o & d chambers near their base will do the trick for certain! we can't lose now! after spending 200 resources & 5 minutes building all this they won't just slap up a siege and blast it all away within a minute! no siree they wouldn't dare!"
I've been told to stop moaning ( and worse names that this forum will censor ) when I've tried to get the team to see that we've lost and we should get a new game underway. Shame because I've had to leave a good passworded server that is normally a hundred times better than a public server because I just can't be bothered to die again and again for 15 mins or so before the end comes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Dec 11 2002, 10:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Dec 11 2002, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bah....Marines should never secure two hives first.
1. The Marine Commander is lousy.
2. The Aliens are lousy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I assure you that every game I've played where the marines do not immediately secure two hives is generally an alien win. There will be exceptions sometimes but those happen very rarely.
Since everyone on these private servers pretty much knows everyone, it's hard to blame it on skill; there's at least 1 competent commander for every 5 people, and always one VERY good commander playing (unless of course the command interface decides to go whacko and they put me in there just to upgrade stuff cause they can't deselect anything).
Both teams are usually about equal in skill on the servers. The marines know where all the ambush spots are, shoot at the ceiling and dark corners to reveal aliens, etc. The aliens know not to have more than two gorges, how to prevent marines from gaining RPs, etc.
hmmmmmm , what happened to my sig <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> it was fine yesterday ; its al your fault ! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Vertigo-1+Dec 11 2002, 11:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vertigo-1 @ Dec 11 2002, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I totally disagree that the game is decided in 5-10 minutes. And that's from someone that plays only on pub servers. What, you don't think turnaround is possible? Oh, you must be one of the lovelies that instantly hits F4 when they see fades/lose fade ability.
Unless your team is absolutely incapable of working together, there's nothing to dictate that you MUST do such-and-such to win the game. If aliens can coordinate skulks to attack together, they can reclaim a 2nd hive even if it's full of turrets and phased-in marines. If marines don't bother to secure a hive but have plenty of resources, they can still outfit the best toys and stomp aliens wherever they want to advance.
Some of the greatest fights I've seen were between 2-hive aliens and advanced marines, or between rapidly expanding marines and aliens fighting over the second hive. I've seen them go either way, NOTHING is certain until the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for your sweeping generalizations.
The following only applies to the said private servers. I won't play on pubs.
Marines don't just sit there after claiming the second hive; they know that concerted attacks can be deadly, so they'll split evenly between the two hives and guard the chokepoints. Usually there will be one outward scout (i.e. if we took the satt comm hive, someone will babysit chem transport and holler when the skulks come).
The aliens aren't stupid either. When I play recon, I can usually hear a good 5 sets of clicking legs running around above me. I usually die soon after that, but that's not the point.
There's always a guy running around trying to hunt down the fatty.
In a situation where both teams are of equal skill and relatively high cooperation, the outcome of the game is determined in 5 minutes. Usually, the marines can end it in 10. It takes the aliens a little longer to get the second hive and go fade though.
If the aliens manage to cut the marines off before they can capture the second hive, they will be able to evolve to fades/lerk and crush the marines. As alien, there will always be two people assigned to RP hunting; their job is simply to suicide repeatedly until they kill a marine resource node (a lot of people just go lerk with one hive and shoot it from far away). This drain on resources severely damages the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueGhost+Dec 12 2002, 12:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Dec 12 2002, 12:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the aliens have two hives you have not lost.
Provided you have good marines and had a reasonable stratagy for capturing res. If you can get up a group of HA/HMG or even just a sneaky group of LA/LMG you can siegine one hive.
The main problem I see is poor commanding when they feel they've lost, when you think you've lost don't go 'ho no must protect base!'
This WILL result in a loss. Worse it results in a long drawn out end game that you cannot possibly win. I've taken over a game as com when they had 2 hives, I got two guys up in totally un-upgraded HA/HMG and one HA/GL (some people really need to look at the upgrades more often), by which time we'd just lost the 3rd hive. I then managed to siege two of their hives with my Heavy team, as the aliens were busy panicking over the invincible marine group sieging their precious hives the previous com sneaked into their other hardly defended hive, I spam ammo he kills hive..
Next thing the marines know they're going 'commander what is that pling pling pling noise?' Turnaround took about 30 mins and thoughout all of it we had fades/skulks attempting to break down the door of our start base, luckily the marines spawning managed to keep them at bay.
Honestly though the reason you never see turnaround is that the comms are all building too many sodding turrets, if they do acctually manage to grab two hives them hives are a SWINE to take back cos they've got about 8 turrets in.
If they don't take two hives they can't go offencive cos they aint got enough res cos they've spent it all on turrets which are completly useless at doing anything other than slowing the fades down. The end game then takes about half a day and the marines have no hope unless they let the turrets slow while charing and save res up for HA/HMG and then try and break out and take hives down.
Sadly they rarely do and it just streches a game out for an extra hour or so.
BlueGhost<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What happens usually when I play:
-If the marines successfully capture two hives, they inevitably win. -If the aliens successfully ambush the marines enroute to the second hive and repeat this until they get the second hive up, they'll win.
I know that it is possible to ninja siege with a JP and all, but the aliens usually have fades/lerks about 2 minutes after they get the second hive.
A few minutes later, these fades and lerks do absolutely nothing but destroy marine resource bases, or camp the marine base (not necessarily the marine start) and kill marines as they spawn (this happens a lot...3 fades and 2 lerks can keep half the marine team dead). While they pin the marines down, the gorges are busy physically blocking every doorway with walls of lame.
Eventually the marines don't have any choice but to camp inside their main base, and it's no fun.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
All RTS games are pretty much prone to this inevitable rushing. The reason is that in RTS games, the return on investment is usually logarithmic...meaning that in the early game, resources are IMMENSELY valuable in proportion to later in the game - Example: the first resource node you get DOUBLES your resource rate, the second only adds a third, the fourth a fourth, etc. Pretty much the same for upgrades.
The result of this is that capturing critical resources/areas early in the game, or knocking your enemy out early in the game is much much more effective than later in the game.
I'm not sure what the solution is ... probably making the resource and technology curve a bit more even. Then again, the tech tree is pretty flat to begin with (marines aren't ALL that powerful until they get HA and/or advanced weapons, same for aliens).
I think most RTS games pretty much devolve into a rushing strategy.
Well, instead of just adding more anecdotes I'll actually post some opinion.
I think fades, umbra, OR grenade launchers should be tweaked so marines have a fighting chance against surviving when the aliens get a new hive. Ideally, the grenade launcher would be changed to take up both the primary and secondary slots. The first would act just as it does now, and the second would change--instead of time delay, it would explode when it hit ANYTHING, but would not explode if it didn't travel farther than its explosion radius (a safety device common on grenade launchers today).
This keeps the GL from becoming a rambo weapon (yeah, you could kill maybe one or two aliens solo before someone managed to rush you and take you out, and skulks are a whole lot more cost effective than a GL anyway). However, GLs would actually become useful at killing aliens instead of just deterring them (since aliens can run away pretty easily, even while backpedaling).
If fades were changed, they'd just get slightly slower energy regen, or slightly less health or armor, but not a combination of the above. Just one.
If umbra was changed, I'd say that either grenades should destroy it, or the more bullets that go into it, the less effective it is. Unfortunately both of these add a bit more processing tax to the server (or I'd think so anyway).
Now, aliens should be able to at least have a little more of a fighting chance against marine rushes and marines that have captured two hives.
Lerks ought to be a whole lot better at flying. Not necessarily an energy boost or anything, but just make it so they can change direction a little easier. If not this, then they should be able to run on the ground a bit faster. I'm assuming the developers don't want this because it would change the role of the lerk from ambush to assault, but I think it'd be nice to be able to get away a little easier.
The aliens should spawn slightly faster, or the number of infantry portals should be limited.
Gorg building:Birthing Chamber Alows an additional alien to respawn. Price, 20-30 possible 40 resources. Max one per hive or two per hive. Does not use preslelected hive chamber slot like d m or s chambers
From my experience the game can be decided within 10-15 if the marines/aliens are incompetent. In some games we successfully rushed, but end up nearly dead midway, but come back to clinch the match.
I give you guys some example from today's games on MMZ server (good server BTW!):
1: Aliens make successful rush. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> 2: Marines relocate to a Hive(A). 3: Aliens attempt to stop the second hive after demolishing the marine start, but lose after turrets go up. 4: Aliens continue to struggle <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> until... 5: Marines secure another Hive(B) and looks like aliens will lose without ability to get another hive. 6: Aliens make assault on Hive(B) and unsuccessful many times. 7: Hive(B) becomes far too fortified <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> and Aliens refocus on capturing Hive(A) again. 8: After a few tries the marine base is demolished. 9: Aliens capture second hive and Fades ruin marines day.
A second game were the game looks to be over, but we win anyway (again!).
1: Aliens rush marine start and fail <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->. 2: Marines secure Resource(1). 3: Marines secure Resource(2) and (3). 4: Second Hive(A) goes up. 5: Marines stop building of the third Hive(B) and captures Resource(4). Hive(B) is under marine control. 6: Fades harass and try to attack marine bases . 7: Marines respond quick to attacks and FOCUS FIRE <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> on Fades. Fades continue to die from this tactic. 8: Hive(A) is seiged <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> and destroyed. 9: Marines take Resource(5) after taking it from the aliens. 10: Marines make final assault after struggling for so long. 11: Server/game crashes and I get killed by gorges. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hope you like my visual presentation. Both these games had decent players and demonstrated the important factor of teamwork. Teamwork is greater than all!
P.S. The second game was marines (scrubs) vs. MMZ. MMZ lost. Take that!
I just wanted to give an answer to the FIRST post right?
I played Comm. when 1.03 was released. The aliens were so damn fast, so, they took all the hives and i was a newb commander back then, so, all i did was watch! The soldiers in my team told me what to do and after a while the aliens rushed us and i was like: "AAAAAHHH! THEY'RE COMING!" you get my point... But somehow it turned, and we were the ones who rushed aliens, and after 1½ hours of a long game.... We woN! Wich means it's NOT decided the first 5-10 mins. Thank you for your time reading this... (PS May i remind you that i was a NEWBIE? And we still won!)
I must stress that Dan and my experiences don't count much for public servers.
Most of the people we play with know how to play well on both sides. This makes the game very boring after a while--it's the same raffle of maybe 2-3 strategies that win games.
Everyone should read shambler.net's article on NS strategy, and how it really does boil down to a Marine rush at the beginning.... or an alien victory.
Comments
In all but a couple memorable games I've played, the outcome was decided by the first crucial 5-10 minutes. Whichever team screws up has to suffer, as one person put it, from a snowball effect at the expense of whatever minor errors they made.
And of course, once one team has two hives, the outcome is decided. The fades overpower marines, or the marines teleporting in like mad overpower skulks/lerks.
Also, the fact that aliens CAN rush and kill off all the marines in the first part of the game (ending it within a few minutes if they get lucky) is obscene enough as it is, but marine rushing being practically encouraged by the game mechanics is in some ways even worse.
I've noticed this sort of rushing based games more and more frequently and I think it would probably be due to the fact that people are getting better. Commanders on both sides know the only good defense is a strong offense and so must rush to take whatever they can at the beginning. The only game I find more boring than losing to a Skulk rush would be the Marines have 2 hives and sloooooooowly take all the RP to kill the third hive. Usually never get a single upgrade. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I suggest we need it make it easier for aliens to come back from 2 hives camped by marines and similary easier for marines to take on fade +umbra combo. This will make the middle game MUCH more exciting.
Provided you have good marines and had a reasonable stratagy for capturing res. If you can get up a group of HA/HMG or even just a sneaky group of LA/LMG you can siegine one hive.
The main problem I see is poor commanding when they feel they've lost, when you think you've lost don't go 'ho no must protect base!'
This WILL result in a loss. Worse it results in a long drawn out end game that you cannot possibly win.
I've taken over a game as com when they had 2 hives, I got two guys up in totally un-upgraded HA/HMG and one HA/GL (some people really need to look at the upgrades more often), by which time we'd just lost the 3rd hive. I then managed to siege two of their hives with my Heavy team, as the aliens were busy panicking over the invincible marine group sieging their precious hives the previous com sneaked into their other hardly defended hive, I spam ammo he kills hive..
Next thing the marines know they're going 'commander what is that pling pling pling noise?' Turnaround took about 30 mins and thoughout all of it we had fades/skulks attempting to break down the door of our start base, luckily the marines spawning managed to keep them at bay.
Honestly though the reason you never see turnaround is that the comms are all building too many sodding turrets, if they do acctually manage to grab two hives them hives are a SWINE to take back cos they've got about 8 turrets in.
If they don't take two hives they can't go offencive cos they aint got enough res cos they've spent it all on turrets which are completly useless at doing anything other than slowing the fades down. The end game then takes about half a day and the marines have no hope unless they let the turrets slow while charing and save res up for HA/HMG and then try and break out and take hives down.
Sadly they rarely do and it just streches a game out for an extra hour or so.
BlueGhost
A Fade + umbra isn't nearly as bad as a 3rd-hive Fade + Lerk combo doing umbra, spores, bile-bomb plus cloaking. If the Onos come in with primal scream... eep.
The "middle" of the game is a bit different for the two sides. Aliens have one spawn point at first: their initial hive. Therefore, the marines having two hives under control is basically like the aliens having all three hives and going against the marine spawn. I guess you can say the marine spawn is like the marines' "third hive", although all their bases are much more portable.
But don't get me wrong.. I'm undecided if the game should be changed any, I'm just thinking out loud <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
"I come back to you now, at the turn of the tide."
I've seen games where marines could have ended the game quicker but decided to drag it out so they could have the "cool weapons and toys". the aliens weren't exactly happy to be toyed aorund with like that and all either ready-rommed or quit the server.
sometimes people want to quit too early when you can fight back but similary some people seem to thrive on the misery that is losing badly and won't stop regardless of how dull and one-sided the game has become.
"yes siree! I love being a skulk and throwing myself at HA + HMG marines just so I can die once again, fifteenth time in the last two minutes!"
or
"golly going gorge and building all these o & d chambers near their base will do the trick for certain! we can't lose now! after spending 200 resources & 5 minutes building all this they won't just slap up a siege and blast it all away within a minute! no siree they wouldn't dare!"
I've been told to stop moaning ( and worse names that this forum will censor ) when I've tried to get the team to see that we've lost and we should get a new game underway. Shame because I've had to leave a good passworded server that is normally a hundred times better than a public server because I just can't be bothered to die again and again for 15 mins or so before the end comes.
1. The Marine Commander is lousy.
2. The Aliens are lousy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assure you that every game I've played where the marines do not immediately secure two hives is generally an alien win. There will be exceptions sometimes but those happen very rarely.
Since everyone on these private servers pretty much knows everyone, it's hard to blame it on skill; there's at least 1 competent commander for every 5 people, and always one VERY good commander playing (unless of course the command interface decides to go whacko and they put me in there just to upgrade stuff cause they can't deselect anything).
Both teams are usually about equal in skill on the servers. The marines know where all the ambush spots are, shoot at the ceiling and dark corners to reveal aliens, etc. The aliens know not to have more than two gorges, how to prevent marines from gaining RPs, etc.
Unless your team is absolutely incapable of working together, there's nothing to dictate that you MUST do such-and-such to win the game. If aliens can coordinate skulks to attack together, they can reclaim a 2nd hive even if it's full of turrets and phased-in marines. If marines don't bother to secure a hive but have plenty of resources, they can still outfit the best toys and stomp aliens wherever they want to advance.
Some of the greatest fights I've seen were between 2-hive aliens and advanced marines, or between rapidly expanding marines and aliens fighting over the second hive. I've seen them go either way, NOTHING is certain until the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your sweeping generalizations.
The following only applies to the said private servers. I won't play on pubs.
Marines don't just sit there after claiming the second hive; they know that concerted attacks can be deadly, so they'll split evenly between the two hives and guard the chokepoints. Usually there will be one outward scout (i.e. if we took the satt comm hive, someone will babysit chem transport and holler when the skulks come).
The aliens aren't stupid either. When I play recon, I can usually hear a good 5 sets of clicking legs running around above me. I usually die soon after that, but that's not the point.
There's always a guy running around trying to hunt down the fatty.
In a situation where both teams are of equal skill and relatively high cooperation, the outcome of the game is determined in 5 minutes. Usually, the marines can end it in 10. It takes the aliens a little longer to get the second hive and go fade though.
If the aliens manage to cut the marines off before they can capture the second hive, they will be able to evolve to fades/lerk and crush the marines. As alien, there will always be two people assigned to RP hunting; their job is simply to suicide repeatedly until they kill a marine resource node (a lot of people just go lerk with one hive and shoot it from far away). This drain on resources severely damages the marines.
Provided you have good marines and had a reasonable stratagy for capturing res. If you can get up a group of HA/HMG or even just a sneaky group of LA/LMG you can siegine one hive.
The main problem I see is poor commanding when they feel they've lost, when you think you've lost don't go 'ho no must protect base!'
This WILL result in a loss. Worse it results in a long drawn out end game that you cannot possibly win.
I've taken over a game as com when they had 2 hives, I got two guys up in totally un-upgraded HA/HMG and one HA/GL (some people really need to look at the upgrades more often), by which time we'd just lost the 3rd hive. I then managed to siege two of their hives with my Heavy team, as the aliens were busy panicking over the invincible marine group sieging their precious hives the previous com sneaked into their other hardly defended hive, I spam ammo he kills hive..
Next thing the marines know they're going 'commander what is that pling pling pling noise?' Turnaround took about 30 mins and thoughout all of it we had fades/skulks attempting to break down the door of our start base, luckily the marines spawning managed to keep them at bay.
Honestly though the reason you never see turnaround is that the comms are all building too many sodding turrets, if they do acctually manage to grab two hives them hives are a SWINE to take back cos they've got about 8 turrets in.
If they don't take two hives they can't go offencive cos they aint got enough res cos they've spent it all on turrets which are completly useless at doing anything other than slowing the fades down. The end game then takes about half a day and the marines have no hope unless they let the turrets slow while charing and save res up for HA/HMG and then try and break out and take hives down.
Sadly they rarely do and it just streches a game out for an extra hour or so.
BlueGhost<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What happens usually when I play:
-If the marines successfully capture two hives, they inevitably win.
-If the aliens successfully ambush the marines enroute to the second hive and repeat this until they get the second hive up, they'll win.
I know that it is possible to ninja siege with a JP and all, but the aliens usually have fades/lerks about 2 minutes after they get the second hive.
A few minutes later, these fades and lerks do absolutely nothing but destroy marine resource bases, or camp the marine base (not necessarily the marine start) and kill marines as they spawn (this happens a lot...3 fades and 2 lerks can keep half the marine team dead). While they pin the marines down, the gorges are busy physically blocking every doorway with walls of lame.
Eventually the marines don't have any choice but to camp inside their main base, and it's no fun.
The result of this is that capturing critical resources/areas early in the game, or knocking your enemy out early in the game is much much more effective than later in the game.
I'm not sure what the solution is ... probably making the resource and technology curve a bit more even. Then again, the tech tree is pretty flat to begin with (marines aren't ALL that powerful until they get HA and/or advanced weapons, same for aliens).
I think most RTS games pretty much devolve into a rushing strategy.
I think fades, umbra, OR grenade launchers should be tweaked so marines have a fighting chance against surviving when the aliens get a new hive. Ideally, the grenade launcher would be changed to take up both the primary and secondary slots. The first would act just as it does now, and the second would change--instead of time delay, it would explode when it hit ANYTHING, but would not explode if it didn't travel farther than its explosion radius (a safety device common on grenade launchers today).
This keeps the GL from becoming a rambo weapon (yeah, you could kill maybe one or two aliens solo before someone managed to rush you and take you out, and skulks are a whole lot more cost effective than a GL anyway). However, GLs would actually become useful at killing aliens instead of just deterring them (since aliens can run away pretty easily, even while backpedaling).
If fades were changed, they'd just get slightly slower energy regen, or slightly less health or armor, but not a combination of the above. Just one.
If umbra was changed, I'd say that either grenades should destroy it, or the more bullets that go into it, the less effective it is. Unfortunately both of these add a bit more processing tax to the server (or I'd think so anyway).
Now, aliens should be able to at least have a little more of a fighting chance against marine rushes and marines that have captured two hives.
Lerks ought to be a whole lot better at flying. Not necessarily an energy boost or anything, but just make it so they can change direction a little easier. If not this, then they should be able to run on the ground a bit faster. I'm assuming the developers don't want this because it would change the role of the lerk from ambush to assault, but I think it'd be nice to be able to get away a little easier.
The aliens should spawn slightly faster, or the number of infantry portals should be limited.
I give you guys some example from today's games on MMZ server (good server BTW!):
1: Aliens make successful rush. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
2: Marines relocate to a Hive(A).
3: Aliens attempt to stop the second hive after demolishing the marine start, but lose after turrets go up.
4: Aliens continue to struggle <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> until...
5: Marines secure another Hive(B) and looks like aliens will lose without ability to get another hive.
6: Aliens make assault on Hive(B) and unsuccessful many times.
7: Hive(B) becomes far too fortified <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> and Aliens refocus on capturing Hive(A) again.
8: After a few tries the marine base is demolished.
9: Aliens capture second hive and Fades ruin marines day.
A second game were the game looks to be over, but we win anyway (again!).
1: Aliens rush marine start and fail <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->.
2: Marines secure Resource(1).
3: Marines secure Resource(2) and (3).
4: Second Hive(A) goes up.
5: Marines stop building of the third Hive(B) and captures Resource(4). Hive(B) is under marine control.
6: Fades harass and try to attack marine bases .
7: Marines respond quick to attacks and FOCUS FIRE <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> on Fades. Fades continue to die from this tactic.
8: Hive(A) is seiged <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> and destroyed.
9: Marines take Resource(5) after taking it from the aliens.
10: Marines make final assault after struggling for so long.
11: Server/game crashes and I get killed by gorges. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hope you like my visual presentation. Both these games had decent players and demonstrated the important factor of teamwork. Teamwork is greater than all!
P.S. The second game was marines (scrubs) vs. MMZ. MMZ lost. Take that!
I played Comm. when 1.03 was released.
The aliens were so damn fast, so, they took all the hives and i was a newb commander back then, so, all i did was watch! The soldiers in my team told me what to do and after a while the aliens rushed us and i was like: "AAAAAHHH! THEY'RE COMING!" you get my point... But somehow it turned, and we were the ones who rushed aliens, and after 1½ hours of a long game.... We woN! Wich means it's NOT decided the first 5-10 mins. Thank you for your time reading this... (PS May i remind you that i was a NEWBIE? And we still won!)
Most of the people we play with know how to play well on both sides. This makes the game very boring after a while--it's the same raffle of maybe 2-3 strategies that win games.