But British are inhabitants from all the United Kingdom, not just GB. Of course, I'm saying that because I can't be punched in the face through my screen, but barring all political controversies, it's a commonly accepted term. And contrarily to calling a Welsh English (as happens way too often in France), it's not a mistake. Though certain Irishmen will hunt you down and do horrible, horrible things to you.
In my original post I had nothing but love for #naturalselection, but, sadly, I'm afraid that this feeling has become a fleeting love.
Why is it that when I look at the NS2 Wiki and browse to the IRC page, I see extra precautions to warn (even discourage) new users with the idea that #findnsscrim is not official, isn't monitored by UWE developers or "community managers," and that the #findnsscrim denizens are not players but "dragons." Perhaps we are dragons. But it is better to be a dragon than draconian. #findnsscrim has only one rule: no one gets banned. I feel that this is a much better approach to free discussion than the unwarranted treatment of users that is driven by the ignorance of your "community managers" in #naturalselection.
It has also occurred to me (thank you supernorn) that the majority of the conversation that takes place in your channel has nothing to do with NS at all. Most questions or concerns about NS or NS2 are completely ignored and washed out in a constant torrent of inanity. For instance:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->[16:51] <+Rayden> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIMbsosjRXA [16:51] <+Rayden> cute british accent talking about male reproductive organs<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Lastly, it is clear that you, the "community managers," do not wish to improve or make the services of IRC and the official forums more resilient or open to suggestions from the public who have actually bought NS2 and will put countless hours into enjoying it. For example, <a href="http://i.imgur.com/QJLXO.png" target="_blank">this post by admiral</a> highlights a very frustrating issue that the competitive community has had to face when dealing with the "community managers" on mediums such as IRC for years. This post was immediately deleted from the NS forums, the moderator carelessly dismissing it as "redundant." Examples like this show that there are real PR problems that need to be addressed by UWE and its community moderators. Until that time has come, I am sorry to say that I cannot here forth recommend #naturalselection as a friendly place to discuss NS or NS2 freely.
Oh good gods please don't make this a #findnsscrim vs #naturalselection thread.
Also, I find it perfectly OK for people to note that the #findnsscrim channel is not a UWE channel. If bad things happen in there, they do not want to be liable. Unlike the #naturalselection channel.
And yes, most talk in the IRC channel is not directly NS related. So? And when people do ask about NS/NS2 they are typically promptly answered. I still see no reason to be so antagonistic.
<!--quoteo(post=1793222:date=Aug 9 2010, 07:52 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 9 2010, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh good gods please don't make this a #findnsscrim vs #naturalselection thread.
Also, I find it perfectly OK for people to note that the #findnsscrim channel is not a UWE channel. If bad things happen in there, they do not want to be liable. Unlike the #naturalselection channel.
And yes, most talk in the IRC channel is not directly NS related. So? And when people do ask about NS/NS2 they are typically promptly answered. I still see no reason to be so antagonistic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah I don't care either. It's kinda ironic actually.
DruBoBack In BeigeJoin Date: 2002-02-06Member: 172Members, NS1 Playtester
I like this thread, meb. It shows a polite and reasonable side to you that I previously wasn't aware existed. Perhaps I missed it somewhere in your repeated ascii spam, nick squatting, and asking me in PM if my fiancee has a penis.
The competitive side of the NS community has always been at odds with the rest, mostly due to a difference of opinion over how the game should be played and developed. Threads like this one can be steps towards bridging that gap. Being a jackass on IRC does the opposite, no matter how much people insist that that's how you're supposed to behave on IRC. (That is, what people do on Rizon and SynIRC and even most of GameSurge is not our concern; individual channels are akin to private property and it is up to us to create and enforce rules as we see fit. Days that are not the Alpha launch see a great reduction in rule enforcement, since many of the rules are mostly there for crowd control anyway.)
I don't like conflict. I'd much rather we all get along. But the other #naturalselection ops and I have a responsibility to keep it a sane place for fans of Natural Selection and new people interested in NS2 to hang out, and that means removing anyone who is causing a disruption. Some ops have different definitions of what defines a disruption, whatever, we're all human and the vast majority of bans are temporary.
To that end: any and all bans are subject to appeal. That is, a reasonable appeal to the ops' better judgement, not griefing and being a pain in the ass, which only makes the bans longer. If you or someone you know has been removed from the official #naturalselection channel for being a disruption, and you feel that they should be given a second chance, please tell us why! Like I said, we're human! We are not evil police robots. Send a forum PM to any of the IRC ops and we'll take it under consideration, I promise.
p.s. anyone who looks at the phrase "here be dragons" and doesn't realize the facetiousness of it is either insane, delusional, or feigning ignorance for some reason. p.p.s. I asked DrFurious to write his own description for the #findnsscrim entry on the wiki and he just gave me a couple words, so I typed whatever came to mind. I will of course change it if it's that big of a problem, just write one for me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like this thread, meb. It shows a polite and reasonable side to you that I previously wasn't aware existed. Perhaps I missed it somewhere in your repeated ascii spam, nick squatting, and asking me in PM if my fiancee has a penis.
The competitive side of the NS community has always been at odds with the rest, mostly due to a difference of opinion over how the game should be played and developed. Threads like this one can be steps towards bridging that gap. Being a jackass on IRC does the opposite, no matter how much people insist that that's how you're supposed to behave on IRC. (That is, what people do on Rizon and SynIRC and even most of GameSurge is not our concern; individual channels are akin to private property and it is up to us to create and enforce rules as we see fit. Days that are not the Alpha launch see a great reduction in rule enforcement, since many of the rules are mostly there for crowd control anyway.)
I don't like conflict. I'd much rather we all get along. But the other #naturalselection ops and I have a responsibility to keep it a sane place for fans of Natural Selection and new people interested in NS2 to hang out, and that means removing anyone who is causing a disruption. Some ops have different definitions of what defines a disruption, whatever, we're all human and the vast majority of bans are temporary.
To that end: any and all bans are subject to appeal. That is, a reasonable appeal to the ops' better judgement, not griefing and being a pain in the ass, which only makes the bans longer. If you or someone you know has been removed from the official #naturalselection channel for being a disruption, and you feel that they should be given a second chance, please tell us why! Like I said, we're human! We are not evil police robots. Send a forum PM to any of the IRC ops and we'll take it under consideration, I promise.
p.s. anyone who looks at the phrase "here be dragons" and doesn't realize the facetiousness of it is either insane, delusional, or feigning ignorance for some reason. p.p.s. I asked DrFurious to write his own description for the #findnsscrim entry on the wiki and he just gave me a couple words, so I typed whatever came to mind. I will of course change it if it's that big of a problem, just write one for me.
I believe that you are mistaking meb's (or, as he is known in #findnsscrim, Mr. Michaels) post for another generic competitive vs public debate, which is not what this thread is discussing.
This is more of a discussion for how Natural Selection can be discussed in a public forum - whether it be through an online message board, or through more unconventional means such as IRC. #Findnsscrim has become more of a response to the mods' apparent bias towards certain community members are "trouble makers" and "trolls" when a more accurate description would be "satirists". If these same mods were in control of 1900's United States, men such as Mark Twain would be thrown in jail and forced to drink Hemlock in the same fashion that Socrates did in Greece - under such arbitrary charges as "corrupting the young".
Were Mr. Michael's actions satirical or serious? It is up to perception, but you cannot argue that Mr. Michael's comments are not relevant to Natural Selection as it stands today. And such comments are much more pertinent, and much less ban-worthy, than the hour long discussions on iPhones and the welfare of cats that currently dominate #naturalselection today. More than that, mods are often confused as to standard procedure for player concerns. As a personal anecdote: when I attempted to first express my community concerns to the public at large, I received three different answers from the mods as to where such a submission should take place, before finally I was directed to the NS store email address (which, even now, I am not entirely sure was correct).
Before there is any further confusion, I would like to clarify that I am not asking for there to be a reevaluation of the rules that #naturalselection adheres to. I am not asking for mods to be replaced or demoted. I am asking that the IRC channel for Natural Selection begin to abide by the same constraints that other official Natural Selection discussion avenues currently must recognize. And, more importantly, I am asking that these constraints be enforced in a consistent manner.
#FindNSScrim is currently at the forefront for cutting edge Natural Selection 2 discussion, as it was during the NS competitive heyday. This is not due to the presence of the "competitive community" versus the "public community", but more due to the fact that moderators such as Dr. Furious strive to ensure that the channel maintains a positive, focused atmosphere, so Natural Selection professionals such as myself can evaluate the current state of the game with a critical eye. More than that, the mods - even though they are not UW representatives - do not make snide remarks towards paying customers on internet message boards. Perhaps the length of time that UW has spent making a free game has made the community representatives forget that they are now representing a business?
DruBoBack In BeigeJoin Date: 2002-02-06Member: 172Members, NS1 Playtester
Responses, in no particular order:
1) We'd all like the ops to be more consistent. That's something I've always been pushing for internally.
2) non-sequitor and off-topic discussion is not against the rules and there is no reason for it to be so.
3) Again, if anyone wants meb to be "freed", I think I made it pretty clear that there are simple steps towards that end
4) I read meb's post as an attempt to start an actual dialog rather than continue to throw idiocy and flames back and forth in response to the recent conflict between #findnsscrim regulars and the #naturalselection ops, not a "generic competitive vs. public debate," which if you read past the first couple sentences of my post you'd know
5) meb may very well have made satirical and relevant comments at some point in the past, but he was banned for spamming the channel with ascii nonsense, and his tempban for that action was upgraded when he was unable to handle his removal with any sort of dignity
and finally, 6) I welcome freedom of expression. Done right, satire can even be funny. I won't ban someone simply for expressing their thoughts, provided they are able to do so without turning the channel into a free-for-all.
Recently, I've certainly noticed an influx of #naturalselection regulars into the #findnsscrim channel. While there has often been bad blood between the competitive community and particular members of the Natural Selection staff/#ns regs, I think this post has at least gotten the ball rolling towards a level of understanding between the two communities not previously witnessed before. I'd personally like to extend the olive branch to other members of the community to give the discussion of Natural Selection and other topics in the channel a chance, you might be pleasantly surprised at what you find.
Would be nice if you extended your level of understanding to communicate with your other ops and not use my nickname across IRC. Maybe that can help sort out some of the "bad blood" between two such groups within the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1793364:date=Aug 10 2010, 01:24 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Aug 10 2010, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would be nice if you extended your level of understanding to communicate with your other ops and not use my nickname across IRC. Maybe that can help sort out some of the "bad blood" between two such groups within the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure meb stealing your name is single-handedly causing a rift that has existed between the two communities for years. Unfortunately, I have no more control over meb than anyone else does and he's always been the type of person to play a practical joke on someone for a good, healthy laugh.
Personally as a long-standing member of the dirty unwashed pubbie masses I have never really understood the bad blood between the competitive and casual scenes. Heck I remember Hellabean as a cool guy and he's bein' just as friendly here and now. How could you dislike that?
Comments
Of course, I'm saying that because I can't be punched in the face through my screen, but barring all political controversies, it's a commonly accepted term. And contrarily to calling a Welsh English (as happens way too often in France), it's not a mistake. Though certain Irishmen will hunt you down and do horrible, horrible things to you.
Why is it that when I look at the NS2 Wiki and browse to the IRC page, I see extra precautions to warn (even discourage) new users with the idea that #findnsscrim is not official, isn't monitored by UWE developers or "community managers," and that the #findnsscrim denizens are not players but "dragons." Perhaps we are dragons. But it is better to be a dragon than draconian. #findnsscrim has only one rule: no one gets banned. I feel that this is a much better approach to free discussion than the unwarranted treatment of users that is driven by the ignorance of your "community managers" in #naturalselection.
It has also occurred to me (thank you supernorn) that the majority of the conversation that takes place in your channel has nothing to do with NS at all. Most questions or concerns about NS or NS2 are completely ignored and washed out in a constant torrent of inanity. For instance:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->[16:51] <+Rayden> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIMbsosjRXA
[16:51] <+Rayden> cute british accent talking about male reproductive organs<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Lastly, it is clear that you, the "community managers," do not wish to improve or make the services of IRC and the official forums more resilient or open to suggestions from the public who have actually bought NS2 and will put countless hours into enjoying it. For example, <a href="http://i.imgur.com/QJLXO.png" target="_blank">this post by admiral</a> highlights a very frustrating issue that the competitive community has had to face when dealing with the "community managers" on mediums such as IRC for years. This post was immediately deleted from the NS forums, the moderator carelessly dismissing it as "redundant." Examples like this show that there are real PR problems that need to be addressed by UWE and its community moderators. Until that time has come, I am sorry to say that I cannot here forth recommend #naturalselection as a friendly place to discuss NS or NS2 freely.
Please join us in #findnsscrim
Also, I find it perfectly OK for people to note that the #findnsscrim channel is not a UWE channel. If bad things happen in there, they do not want to be liable. Unlike the #naturalselection channel.
And yes, most talk in the IRC channel is not directly NS related. So? And when people do ask about NS/NS2 they are typically promptly answered. I still see no reason to be so antagonistic.
Also, I find it perfectly OK for people to note that the #findnsscrim channel is not a UWE channel. If bad things happen in there, they do not want to be liable. Unlike the #naturalselection channel.
And yes, most talk in the IRC channel is not directly NS related. So? And when people do ask about NS/NS2 they are typically promptly answered. I still see no reason to be so antagonistic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I don't care either. It's kinda ironic actually.
The competitive side of the NS community has always been at odds with the rest, mostly due to a difference of opinion over how the game should be played and developed. Threads like this one can be steps towards bridging that gap. Being a jackass on IRC does the opposite, no matter how much people insist that that's how you're supposed to behave on IRC. (That is, what people do on Rizon and SynIRC and even most of GameSurge is not our concern; individual channels are akin to private property and it is up to us to create and enforce rules as we see fit. Days that are not the Alpha launch see a great reduction in rule enforcement, since many of the rules are mostly there for crowd control anyway.)
I don't like conflict. I'd much rather we all get along. But the other #naturalselection ops and I have a responsibility to keep it a sane place for fans of Natural Selection and new people interested in NS2 to hang out, and that means removing anyone who is causing a disruption. Some ops have different definitions of what defines a disruption, whatever, we're all human and the vast majority of bans are temporary.
To that end: any and all bans are subject to appeal. That is, a reasonable appeal to the ops' better judgement, not griefing and being a pain in the ass, which only makes the bans longer. If you or someone you know has been removed from the official #naturalselection channel for being a disruption, and you feel that they should be given a second chance, please tell us why! Like I said, we're human! We are not evil police robots. Send a forum PM to any of the IRC ops and we'll take it under consideration, I promise.
p.s. anyone who looks at the phrase "here be dragons" and doesn't realize the facetiousness of it is either insane, delusional, or feigning ignorance for some reason.
p.p.s. I asked DrFurious to write his own description for the #findnsscrim entry on the wiki and he just gave me a couple words, so I typed whatever came to mind. I will of course change it if it's that big of a problem, just write one for me.
Sheesh.
-Drubo
The competitive side of the NS community has always been at odds with the rest, mostly due to a difference of opinion over how the game should be played and developed. Threads like this one can be steps towards bridging that gap. Being a jackass on IRC does the opposite, no matter how much people insist that that's how you're supposed to behave on IRC. (That is, what people do on Rizon and SynIRC and even most of GameSurge is not our concern; individual channels are akin to private property and it is up to us to create and enforce rules as we see fit. Days that are not the Alpha launch see a great reduction in rule enforcement, since many of the rules are mostly there for crowd control anyway.)
I don't like conflict. I'd much rather we all get along. But the other #naturalselection ops and I have a responsibility to keep it a sane place for fans of Natural Selection and new people interested in NS2 to hang out, and that means removing anyone who is causing a disruption. Some ops have different definitions of what defines a disruption, whatever, we're all human and the vast majority of bans are temporary.
To that end: any and all bans are subject to appeal. That is, a reasonable appeal to the ops' better judgement, not griefing and being a pain in the ass, which only makes the bans longer. If you or someone you know has been removed from the official #naturalselection channel for being a disruption, and you feel that they should be given a second chance, please tell us why! Like I said, we're human! We are not evil police robots. Send a forum PM to any of the IRC ops and we'll take it under consideration, I promise.
p.s. anyone who looks at the phrase "here be dragons" and doesn't realize the facetiousness of it is either insane, delusional, or feigning ignorance for some reason.
p.p.s. I asked DrFurious to write his own description for the #findnsscrim entry on the wiki and he just gave me a couple words, so I typed whatever came to mind. I will of course change it if it's that big of a problem, just write one for me.
Sheesh.
-Drubo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Drubo:
I believe that you are mistaking meb's (or, as he is known in #findnsscrim, Mr. Michaels) post for another generic competitive vs public debate, which is not what this thread is discussing.
This is more of a discussion for how Natural Selection can be discussed in a public forum - whether it be through an online message board, or through more unconventional means such as IRC. #Findnsscrim has become more of a response to the mods' apparent bias towards certain community members are "trouble makers" and "trolls" when a more accurate description would be "satirists". If these same mods were in control of 1900's United States, men such as Mark Twain would be thrown in jail and forced to drink Hemlock in the same fashion that Socrates did in Greece - under such arbitrary charges as "corrupting the young".
Were Mr. Michael's actions satirical or serious? It is up to perception, but you cannot argue that Mr. Michael's comments are not relevant to Natural Selection as it stands today. And such comments are much more pertinent, and much less ban-worthy, than the hour long discussions on iPhones and the welfare of cats that currently dominate #naturalselection today. More than that, mods are often confused as to standard procedure for player concerns. As a personal anecdote: when I attempted to first express my community concerns to the public at large, I received three different answers from the mods as to where such a submission should take place, before finally I was directed to the NS store email address (which, even now, I am not entirely sure was correct).
Before there is any further confusion, I would like to clarify that I am not asking for there to be a reevaluation of the rules that #naturalselection adheres to. I am not asking for mods to be replaced or demoted. I am asking that the IRC channel for Natural Selection begin to abide by the same constraints that other official Natural Selection discussion avenues currently must recognize. And, more importantly, I am asking that these constraints be enforced in a consistent manner.
#FindNSScrim is currently at the forefront for cutting edge Natural Selection 2 discussion, as it was during the NS competitive heyday. This is not due to the presence of the "competitive community" versus the "public community", but more due to the fact that moderators such as Dr. Furious strive to ensure that the channel maintains a positive, focused atmosphere, so Natural Selection professionals such as myself can evaluate the current state of the game with a critical eye. More than that, the mods - even though they are not UW representatives - do not make snide remarks towards paying customers on internet message boards. Perhaps the length of time that UW has spent making a free game has made the community representatives forget that they are now representing a business?
Thank you-
WMM
1) We'd all like the ops to be more consistent. That's something I've always been pushing for internally.
2) non-sequitor and off-topic discussion is not against the rules and there is no reason for it to be so.
3) Again, if anyone wants meb to be "freed", I think I made it pretty clear that there are simple steps towards that end
4) I read meb's post as an attempt to start an actual dialog rather than continue to throw idiocy and flames back and forth in response to the recent conflict between #findnsscrim regulars and the #naturalselection ops, not a "generic competitive vs. public debate," which if you read past the first couple sentences of my post you'd know
5) meb may very well have made satirical and relevant comments at some point in the past, but he was banned for spamming the channel with ascii nonsense, and his tempban for that action was upgraded when he was unable to handle his removal with any sort of dignity
and finally, 6) I welcome freedom of expression. Done right, satire can even be funny. I won't ban someone simply for expressing their thoughts, provided they are able to do so without turning the channel into a free-for-all.
I'm not sure meb stealing your name is single-handedly causing a rift that has existed between the two communities for years. Unfortunately, I have no more control over meb than anyone else does and he's always been the type of person to play a practical joke on someone for a good, healthy laugh.
Keep it coming ye olde vets
Also, join our gorge army in BAD clan server #1
Steps:
1) Go Gorge
2) Drop an MC
3) Get Celerity
4) Rush marine start with 7 other vet gorges
5) Destroy everything with gorge spit