<!--quoteo(post=1791548:date=Aug 4 2010, 06:24 PM:name=StarClaws)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StarClaws @ Aug 4 2010, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically all that needs to be done is that MAC build rate is extremely slow and if assisted by a marine it increases speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd prefer both being able to build independently, I'd compromise on differing build speeds but I don't see it as necessary.
I also think bots will remain useful backups if players can build, although I'm not concerned about them being underused as it's better than relying completely on them IMO.
Ya after thinking about it. Aliens would just end up rushing the MAC instead of the marines all the time.
Marines would have to build slow and the MAC would have to build a bit faster to make it still important but not completely relying on them. And still a target for aliens at times but not a complete blind suicide rush for aliens to kill it. Hmmm... Later on for balance: the number of MACs, health, speed, MAC respawn time, the rate build speeds of MAC and Marines, the length of time certain buildings take to build.
Then it comes down to how fast is too fast for power building and such?
Just throwing in my two cents, marines not being able to build structures themselves was one of my gripes with NS2. But I understand the reason for the change, and I like the idea of the MAC. Some sort of compromise between the two would be really ideal here, as I don't think the MAC is going to be thrown on the scrap heap.
It's not that I'm against change, I'm just against anything that takes away from experiences and strategies or restricts me from abilities I had in the original. Also this new unit poses numerous scenarios involving game play and strategy issues, some mentioned in previous posts. Not only that but it seems there will already be an overwhelming amount of complexities/responsibilities towards Commanders as is... now they will have to supervise these new units in the progression of building structures, as opposed to passing it down to real teamwork. The most important reason I enjoyed the original NS was that it had such a unique and strong reliance on teamwork. Any marks against teamwork with restrictions, and removal of abilities from the original will turn me away from this game. Thanks for your consideration.
<!--quoteo(post=1791584:date=Aug 4 2010, 10:03 AM:name=Mac1OMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mac1OMan @ Aug 4 2010, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not that I'm against change, I'm just against anything that takes away from experiences and strategies or restricts me from abilities I had in the original. Also this new unit poses numerous scenarios involving game play and strategy issues, some mentioned in previous posts. Not only that but it seems there will already be an overwhelming amount of complexities/responsibilities towards Commanders as is... now they will have to supervise these new units in the progression of building structures, as opposed to passing it down to real teamwork. The most important reason I enjoyed the original NS was that it had such a unique and strong reliance on teamwork. Any marks against teamwork from the original will turn me away from this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely.
I think the pouring of concern from threads and the overwhelming poll results say people want at least a compromise. It cannot get any more clearer than this. Small and potent changes are fine, but removal and replacement of core mechanics that made this title so popular in the first place is justifiably going to turn away many players. This applies to every other thing that's replaced or reduced to a simpler form as well.
The majority don't want a BRAND new NS. It's the same for CS, TS, DOD, Starcraft. Sure they want progression and evolution but they want the essence and core mechanics still in tact. It doesn't need a drastic makeover, it's already popular. They don't want a watered-down version just so it can attract temporary profits from console kiddies who need to be reminded every 5 seconds R is for reload. NS1 is like the perfect house, but a few changes to the kitchen and maybe an extension is welcomed, but it's still have it be that house you love.
I am with the OP in this. I find it far more engaging and thrilling to have to build the building myself or cover a fellow marine. Both arguing parties have valid points and it comes down to a battle of what players really prefer and balance. I want to try and really touch base with both parties then offer my own constructive opinion.
TSS the OP makes his points in the fact that putting the MAC's in the game does in fact remove some of the elements in NS1 that made the entire "building" portion of the game fun for the marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or the fact that sometimes, a marine was smart and stealthy enough to reach an out of the way resnode, which i can drop a tower on (the MACs i sent out keep getting killed very very very easely).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very valid point and with the MAC's put into the game it is now completely removed. This may not of even been the intention of the developers when they designed NS1 but it worked out this way and could really secure an advantage for the marines and their economy in the beginning of the game but at the same time also be a giant risk of wasting resources at such a critical part early on in the game. It was always so intense to fill up on ammo and immediately run off and find a dark corner to hide as you watch 1-3 skulks run by knowing you were just barely unnoticed. You get up and you are now 3/4ths across the map with the commander dropping a res node for you to secure an area normally in Alien territory. While you were building you suddenly hear a click klak or a slip slop and you stop "holding e" and spin around....the sounds stopped, your heart actually starts to race a bit...was it a skulk or gorge just passing by a nearby hallway or have I been noticed???? All is quiet you turn around and begin building again. AMBUSHED! Now its a test of skill to see if you can recover from the attack and secure the area. To me this was invigorating, an adrenaline rush and a very fun aspect of Natural Selection. It got even better when you were discovered by a skulk who had the same idea and you two kind of met at the "half way" point and duked it out...now the alien or potential aliens know you are there and it just became even more riskier.
The MAC's from what I am seeing are going to take the shortest route to their designated spot and travel down the middle of the hall ways or just in straight or diagonal lines. There for taking the shortest route to the area they are going to build in creates the issue that eventually Aliens are going to know where these MAC's are going to always travel if they anticipate the marines will try and build in this location, almost in a sense making this aspect of the game, linear. The Aliens will know there are marines guarding the MAC and traveling down said hallways and rooms. This almost forces Combat and removes the whole "Stealth/Ninja" approach to the game for the Marines. You could argu the commander could guide the MAC a different direction...this IMO just takes the commanders attention away from other important things going on in the game across the map and creates the high potential for a very slow and irritating escort with the commander more then likely having to take his attention away from the MAC to deal with other things and requests...also leaving the idle MAC and marines in a bad situation. This both irritates the players and takes control away from them.
There is also another issue with the MAC's that I can see being irritating and frustrating. Once the commander tells a MAC to go somewhere it's going to go and not stop unless given the order to stop. This forces the marines to keep moving with the MAC and could force the commander to keep focusing on the MAC to stop it if needed which draws the commanders attention away from other possible important or priority issues happening on another part of the map. Lets give a scenario.
Two marines are escorting a MAC down a hallway. They are attacked. The commander has shifted his/her attention to another issue happening somewhere else. The marines are dealing with a Skulk, lerk (in the future Fade or Onos). The MAC turns a corner, marines are pre-occupied, opps...there was another alien over there and the MAC is dead, possibly the marines too if not they have suffered damage and spent ammo and they have to run all the way back to escort another MAC.
The other argument is that this pretty much just eliminates the marines from facing a building and "holding down e for 15 seconds". It does and it doesn't. Getting technical...it does just eliminate holding down e for 15 seconds. But as stated above it eliminates that sense of vulnerability and teamwork strategy in ways that both marines (or more if there were) could choose to build it quicker by both "holding down e" for said amount of time depending on the building, or one could cover and the other could build.
You can safely argu that the addition of the MAC's is both adding and removing aspects of teamwork involved in building these buildings. In one perspective it requires teamwork to both escort then guard the MAC. But in some sense it almost creates a firing squad. MAC is building, two marines crouched and ready to fire and anything moving that's not human. With the MAC's your also removing an aspect of teamwork. You got a vulnerable team member "holding down e" and he needs protection.
Again both sides hold valid points but my overall ultimate opinion on the matter is. Ditch the MAC's. My opinion and play preference is to actually have to physically be there and "hold down e" myself to build these buildings. MAC's will just force unnecessary combat and IMO takes to much away from teamwork and strategy. They are an innovative idea for this FPS/RTS hybrid, but just not worth it. I enjoyed NS1 primarily because it was an FPS but it involved more strategy and planning rather then just being all about combat.
Yess commanding is really really nice. The most interesting example is:
Once a game, in a very critiacal postion, I beaconed and select all rines and sent them to Silo, cuz we lost Generator and we had to get a hive quick but all of rines went to Cargo hive and smahed by onos then we lost.
You cant see anything like this in any other games. Normally all AI's go to where you way point.
There is something more than commmanding, etc. I really dont know what it is but i like complexity and varieties in a game.
Could one sollution be to let Macs only build in areas already controlled by Marines? This would make the commander be able to upgrade his base and marines to be able to join the battle faster without having an assigned "Build ######" like people used to have in NS1. If you expand to a new area, the MAC could help set up the base there.
The idea of the MAC's building things for the commander is not bad, but the idea of MACs running around in hallways is.
<!--quoteo(post=1790633:date=Aug 2 2010, 02:01 PM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Aug 2 2010, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very good point by rebirth. Marine building was about involving the foot soldier in the RTS aspect game. You didn't just kill things, you had to build critical structures, scout targets for siege cannons, etc.
If marine building is omitted (as well as the new siege system which just sounds like more escorting), you don't have any direct influence on the RTS part of the game, because the commander can do it without your help.
I don't see why some people are so vehemently opposed to a compromise. There have been some excellent suggestions about how to combine marine building and MAC building.
Give marines a slower build rate. Make marine building an upgrade option. Give marines a specific tool that allows them to build. Make MACs only functional in "powered-up" areas. Etc.
However, I don't think marine building is the ONLY way to give marines a more involved role in the RTS aspect. If marine building must be omitted, perhaps other features could be introduced, such as allowing Marines to deploy and reposition certain types of buildings (like mobile armouries, mini sentries, etc.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm afraid I agree, I would miss the building a lot.
I dont think Flayra is "caving in to public opinion" I think he just realises that he too misses that 'danger' feeling.
If bots could build and marines then it does open up another level of strategical decision making, both on the part of the commander and on the part of the marine.
Does he guard the res node and wait for the MAC, or does he try to get it started, move on.. let the MAC finish? or maybe completes the entire building and moves on. If your with two or three marines, does one guard the rest build, all guard wait for the MAC? Is there a designated 'builder' who lets face it always PK's when he panics. At the start does a commander send MACS one way and marines another?...
Apart from the 'intense' feeling of being exposed, not to mention the "shyt my pants" feeling of a cloaked skulk biting ya, or the feeling that, hey, finishing that structure before you died has just won us the game!.. I think the option for marines to build, add's a strategical depth that everyone would enjoy.
If anything, adding the 'option' for marines to build (as well as MACS) would make commanding a lot more interesting.
Just a Quick note to get my two bob in. Probably no one will read it anyway here goes.
I think that building buildings as a marine was one of the highlights in NS1 . I don't like the idea of the bots. I think it's what made Natural selection Natural selection. The sneakyness of teleports, sieges,turret farms,armorys, u name it i loved it. It will be greatly missed as it changes the gameplay dramatically. It could be for the better you never know i guess we wait and see.
But why change something that works.
All i ever wanted from NS2 was an upgrade in the graphics.
Anyway Love your work , dont mean to be a random knocking your skills.
Wow this thing really took off. I got sucked into another game after creating the thread, curtesy of my real life friends so i haven't been keeping tabs, but i do see it's got a tweet now ^^.
I posted pretty uch all i wanted to say in the OP, but I'll clarify on the hand of some of the oppinions i've seen (i didn't read the entire thread though. 21 pages, lol :p)
I'll tell a little more about the game that got me to this idea. I was playing marine trying to shoot lerks who at this point at pretty much invunrable when their flying. It was fun for a while but a few games in i wanted to try and build some stuff (the lerks got bored as well). It was on a 12 man server, even though the play list showed 36 people in the readyroom at some point :p I jumped into the command chair with another marine, he became the commander, i became stuck in the commanders chair (after the kill-patch). The game after that, i got in and build the armory, got a hang of the menu's etc.
The first thing i noticed was i couldn't acces the buildings anymore. I had to select a MAC. Which somehow felt counter intuitive, It's a completly logical system i know, the problem is with me as i used to zip through all the menu's with shortkeys and that's different now. No problem, will take some getting used to. Building the armory didn't give much of a problem, as it was build in base. I upgraded it and ran out of resources. After locating the symbol for carbon (kinda hard to tell without a tutorial but i figured it out :p) i decided it was time to go and collect resources.
Now, the troubling part begins. As per NS1, i went to the closest RT with a marine and tried to drop a tower, which didn't work obviously. This disturbed me greatly because this is a HUGE gameplay change, it completly overthrows all dynamics that made NS1 such a fast playing game. It'll mean you'll have to move to a RT point tactically since you have a VIB to protect (very important bot :P), while NS1 was run your legs off and build it first. You will not need to watch your back when building, you won't be building, you'll have to watch the bot's back. in NS1, if you where building and a skulk came around the corner, that builder turned into a deadly marine with a gun. I've had situations where i've killed 3 skulks on my own before the phase gate was up. Now it'll only take 2 skulks to win: 1 to chase the marine, the other to chew the bot.
However, as i was still ingame i rolled with it. While the marines where busy doing what they do best - shooting bullits - i thought "well if i could move to a spot stealthy as a player surely i can make this bot do the same". Well, no. Each time i was forced to watch from above as a skulk came around the corner and chewed it's backside. Those fragile little bots go down fast, too. This lead me to the conclusion that, if the MAC gets chewed on the way to ANY assault, regardless of how many marines are present, your push is gone and you need to head back to base to get another MAC. Considering they cost money to make compounds the problem.
I was not the only one in these concirns, as without saying anything the marines automatically escorted the MAC with 2 people. i followed them (having just enough res for 1 res tower since none of the solo-MAC's made it so i couldn't drop health packs) they reached the RT and i dropped the tower. While still building it, 3 skulks came and started chasing the marines, leaving the MAC alone at first but quickly chewing it up after the 2 marines where dead. Now, the hitreg bug comes into play making it harder on the marines, but because it's a new game the skulks didn't go for the MAC untill the marines where dead. You can bet your ass as a skulk as soon as i see a chance i'll be eating a good ol' Mc MAC.
Anyway we lost that round no problem because of lack of resources. i played 2-3 more rounds as a commander, but that went pretty much the same. I got 2 RT's down total, all the other MAC's got eaten, and the 2 RT's got eaten about 3 minutes after they where up. But of course, this is only half of the story.
After those rounds, i started playing as a grunt again. This time, paying attention to what i had just picked up. However, i cannot escape my memories. After dealing with the first wave of skulks as per usual, i set about hunting resource points. Only when i found my way to one, preparing to defend it for a MAC arrival.... I found that the RT had already been build and a idle MAC was floating besides it. I felt....dissapointed. There was nothing for me to defend, as the point was reached of the next push. I felt, unneeded, mostly.
After reviewing my first night of alpha, i made the OP. Like i said, i'm not afraid of change, but afraid of changes that are bad. I've been gaming since the good ol 'days of quake, so don't think i don't love shooting stuff. But it has been a decade since NS1. I've shot stuff in every way imaginable. On the RTS side i've conquered the world more times then i even care to remember. I've seen the shooting stuff. What i haven't seen since NS1, is more then shooting stuff.
Also, if you take the arguement of "just shoot stuff", then NS2 sucks. It's by far and large not the best game even in it's projected final state. There are so many games that do shooting stuff better: Bad company 2, destructability. CS:S, tactics. UT3, chaos and mayhem. Alien VS Predator, uniqueness in classes. Modern Warfare 2: weapons/xp/kill streak upgrades.
It's not about pressing "e". It's about battle in a whole different manner. NS1 was a fast paced game, where building forward bases was the key to winning, Building a solid defence was the key to survival, Building RT's was nessecary for the commander to support *you*. Because *you* build stuff.
I guess to make a simple comparison after a long post: In NS2, currently, i feel like one of those guys i train in the barracks in C&C, that runs out and shoots stuff i order it too. In NS1, nothing. There is no comparison to the feeling i got from NS1. and i don't mean "this game is unique", no, i mean it's genre is unique. It's the only game to have done FPS/RTS correctly. In a decade worth of shooters which all do the same thing, shooting bullits, only Empires is a mod i can remember in which you build something. I played that too, i liked that too, but it doesn't hold a candle to NS1.
As allways, just my oppinion on the matter. On to page 40! :p
I think the ability to shift dynamically between the roles is one of the huge cornerstones of NS marine teamwork. There's a huge difference between an average team and a good team on how efficient they are on getting the tasks done and adjusting to the situation.
In many situations, builder is still one of the important roles, let it be RT, PG, TF or sieges, or even an obs or replacement armslab. In many situations removing the builder role limits marine to more or less of a guard. In a group of 4 you've got 4 guards while the mac builds and neither the MAC or marine is cabable of adjusting much. Wth the marines able to build, you'd have possibility to shift between 1 to 5 builders depending on the situation, MAC possibly welding while a few marines build or so on.
Mixing up roles suddenly turned the situation into far more diverse situation where a good team adjusts to the situation, communicates and possibly takes risks.
I don't want MACs gone nor do I want to force marines to hold 'e' to build every remote res node or tech building at base. MACs are good for mechanical tasks, but I'd really appreciate if the marines still had the option to adjust into enough of roles, including a momentarily builder or welder when necessary. That dynamic adjustment is a big part of NS' teamwork beauty.
I stated my piece in another thread, I must also admit I am a long time gamer. I played Q1 and Q1 TF back in the day on 33k and then 56k modems. I even played MUDS (Text Based MMO's), this went onto games like Warcraft 1, EQ, Halflife, Halflife 2 so I like to think I am well versed in games and what they offer.
If you remove the players ability to build from NS1. I think you remove what made NS the game it was. Each and every player could play a different role in a solid hybrid RTS/FPS game. For those who wanted FPS they could do it. For those would want RTS the commander would be the best role and for those who enjoyed a Mix, building / gorge was perfect. This allowed friends who wanted a slightly different type of game to all gather in one server as friends and enjoy themselves by doing what they liked. The best example is 2 of my friends who love counterstrike always assumed an FPS role, they never built buildings or went Gorge, they just loved killing ###### which was fine, me and my brother preferred to gorge or commander alot and sometimes to break it up would just FPS it. This meant the game was both interesting and enjoyable to a broad array of people in the one game. It also was relatively quick (unlike an MMO, or Diablo 2 or warcraft 3 which all take long times). Games get boring when you end up doing the same sort of thing over and over. The best aspect of NS1 was so many games unfolded so differently, nobody ever knew what was going to happen. Suprise attacks, ninja buildings, different strategies but i do know one thing. It needs to be fast paced FPS while also integrating the RTS. I do believe the current setup is too slow, adding some suggestions both adds to the pace of the game and to the RTS aspect (Involvement and ownership to the team and to the win) and a game that further involves and draws a player in will be more successful than one where the commander feels that sense while the players just fight over the number of kills they got. It will get old quickly and the player base will fade.
I think its fair to say that after you've added your 2cents, try not to argue your point too much to the point that it isn't relevant anymore. Drown your pride puulease.
Oh and like a lot of people have been saying, i'm all for more gameplay, and even pressing an 'e' to increase the rate of finishing the build can add a lot more depth in gameplay then people think, also adds another job to prevent boredom.
I mean you can even make it a lot more charismatic then 'just pressing e' implies. For instance, holding e on the object and then moving your mouse rotates your torso to look to the side for incoming enemies or what not *giggle*!
Anyways thats my 2cents, i'm sure the devs have it all sorted!
I've already answered on a facebook topic of this.
I agree on the proposition that marines should be able to build (thereby making the building go up faster). But, I feel there should always be a mac there, when the building is deployed. reason: How the hell can one marine carry an rt on his back? yeah, good question.. Makes me wonder about ns1 where buildings popped out of nowhere..
Anyway, how can a MAC carry around an rt? I've got a suggestion! At base, build a supply depot, where MAC's "refill", so they can build more buildings. But how should this add up? Building rt's is a task that should be done fast!
But think again, friends! The marines got highly developed equipment, so why not make their resource points, go in 2/3 faster than normal (because of their tech)?
But that if is you guys see it as I do; buildings out of nowhere - hmm....
But back to topic: As already said, I support the idea of having marines building stuff, making buildings go up faster. And, I support giving the Gorge freedom to build stuff himself, but perhaps not huge buildings (because of the same reason rines can't build. How can a gorge create a hive? Perhaps add limit: bigger structures require more gorges (or simply a buildbug from the hive)!).
<!--quoteo(post=1791653:date=Aug 4 2010, 04:14 PM:name=Decipher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Decipher @ Aug 4 2010, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I must agree with the above.
I stated my piece in another thread, I must also admit I am a long time gamer. I played Q1 and Q1 TF back in the day on 33k and then 56k modems. I even played MUDS (Text Based MMO's), this went onto games like Warcraft 1, EQ, Halflife, Halflife 2 so I like to think I am well versed in games and what they offer.
If you remove the players ability to build from NS1. I think you remove what made NS the game it was. Each and every player could play a different role in a solid hybrid RTS/FPS game. For those who wanted FPS they could do it. For those would want RTS the commander would be the best role and for those who enjoyed a Mix, building / gorge was perfect. This allowed friends who wanted a slightly different type of game to all gather in one server as friends and enjoy themselves by doing what they liked. The best example is 2 of my friends who love counterstrike always assumed an FPS role, they never built buildings or went Gorge, they just loved killing ###### which was fine, me and my brother preferred to gorge or commander alot and sometimes to break it up would just FPS it. This meant the game was both interesting and enjoyable to a broad array of people in the one game. It also was relatively quick (unlike an MMO, or Diablo 2 or warcraft 3 which all take long times). Games get boring when you end up doing the same sort of thing over and over. The best aspect of NS1 was so many games unfolded so differently, nobody ever knew what was going to happen. Suprise attacks, ninja buildings, different strategies but i do know one thing. It needs to be fast paced FPS while also integrating the RTS. I do believe the current setup is too slow, adding some suggestions both adds to the pace of the game and to the RTS aspect (Involvement and ownership to the team and to the win) and a game that further involves and draws a player in will be more successful than one where the commander feels that sense while the players just fight over the number of kills they got. It will get old quickly and the player base will fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree :) heck even i miss the part about building.. the Mac are fine if you are a human. But they should make it so a marine could build too (Ie the commander needs to build a packet(at the main base) and then the marines could pick it up and drop it off at the siege point(the macs could help build it, or even drop it. this way there would still be need for some guarding of this "packet" Just my opinion :) //Matrix (sry if i have bad grammar :)
<!--quoteo(post=1791648:date=Aug 4 2010, 04:06 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 4 2010, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a huge difference between an average team and a good team on how efficient they are on getting the tasks done and adjusting to the situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why Natural selection makes a good 'public game' as well as a good 'Clan match' game.
In a public game you have a mix of skills which makes it appealing because each game is radically different and can hinge on a few factors. If it were JUST mac's building then the game is gona get pretty predictable very quickly. (just go for the MACS)
but is there any reason why we cant have 'rule-sets' ? Why does it have to be just one way, and one way only?.. Personally I'd love an NS1 rule set, maybe an ns1/ns2 ruleset hybrid (Macs + marines building) And maybe a hardcore NS2 ruleset (MACS Only)
... Marines and MACs don't carry anything, the commander DROPS it, and all they do is build. This discussion definitely is getting really annoying with all the ideas that make no sense at all, it's irritating. "Hey, let the commander a picnic basket with all the tools and peices needed to build an RT. My god, really people... Commander drops, we build/MAC build. Why must everyone try to make it so darn complicated? "Let's make it so that once we take over an area that's the only time a MAC can come in to build" Yeah no, complicated for no reason at all.
This should be the only discussion: "Should marines be able to press 'e'(or whatever) to help build if they want to help build with the MAC, yes or no?"
if NO then done. if YES then okay.
There shouldn't be this entire discussion of dumb ideas and ###### back and forth. All these people want is the ability to help build for some reason, don't know why, but they do. So let them, but just allow it so that 1 or 2 people MAX can help a MAC speed up the build process.
<!--quoteo(post=1791656:date=Aug 5 2010, 01:23 AM:name=Psycho)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psycho @ Aug 5 2010, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How the hell can one marine carry an rt on his back? yeah, good question.. Makes me wonder about ns1 where buildings popped out of nowhere..
Anyway, how can a MAC carry around an rt? I've got a suggestion! At base, build a supply depot, where MAC's "refill", so they can build more buildings. But how should this add up? Building rt's is a task that should be done fast!
But that if is you guys see it as I do; buildings out of nowhere - hmm....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think the realism/plausibility of gameplay aspects is that important in a sci-fi shooter.
I'm severely concerned about this issue. I absolutely hate "escort the npc" gameplay. One thing that makes NS so great is that there are no "bots"...it's players going after players. Marines should definitely have the ability to build on their own, while having a MAC as a support unit. As a commander, there's a lot to do, and having to babysit a MAC across a long trek isn't as fun as ordering your human marine team somewhere and supporting them along the way. Those marines can make their own decisions and determine risk vs reward. An NPC is dumb and just goes straight for a location regardless of the situation and can easily be taken out. The game risks being dumbed down to babysitting little or no AI NPCs. I doubt MACs will be very durable, and an alien team can just all rush onto the MAC leaving the marines with no real viable way to stop them in time.
Sure, "holding e" doesn't sound interesting on paper, but ingame, I remember the feeling of being vulnerable and hoping I wouldn't get caught building, or that my fellow marines could hold off the enemy. If you were alone, you'd be building, the commander would warn something was coming your way, and you'd hold off with intense uncertainty and hope the alien would pass by and not spot you so you could continue building again.
The unknown is a very good technique in gaming, and removing that uncertainty and unknown can truly destroy the immersion of a game. That's why GM events are so popular in MMOs...they break away from the "norm" of exactly what you'd expect from logging in. You'll be playing and know that something different could happen.
There's no reason to limit gameplay for players...and even REDUCE gameplay from NS1. Leave the ability for players to build structures, and allow MACs to simply be there as a support role. The driving force of the game should be the players, not NPCs.
<!--quoteo(post=1791677:date=Aug 4 2010, 05:33 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Aug 4 2010, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All these people want is the ability to help build for some reason, don't know why, but they do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apart from the fact that its dangerous (cant shoot), exciting (I prey there's no skulks about), fun (yay, I helped makes somethings), atmospheric (did I just hear something?) for me it adds strategical depth... not just for marines, but for aliens too (go for marine or for mac) and for the commander. Its a win win for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1791687:date=Aug 4 2010, 01:03 PM:name=sadeyx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sadeyx @ Aug 4 2010, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Apart from the fact that its dangerous (cant shoot), exciting (I prey there's no skulks about), fun (yay, I helped makes somethings), atmospheric (did I just hear something?) for me it adds strategical depth... not just for marines, but for aliens too (go for marine or for mac) and for the commander. Its a win win for everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think my first year of playing is whenever i felt anything exciting when building an RT. After that it was just a pointless snorefest. "*Yawn.. skulk is coming, i'll trick him to coming to me, or since I know where he's coming from i'll go out and kill him." It isn't dangerous, you listen, you hear, you shoot. If they have silence, you pay attention to your surroundings, even if you see them running around the corner you can jump away and shoot at them and avoid their bites to kill them, and again you win. It's only dangerous if you have no idea how to pay attention or move properly.
And obviously you'd go for the marines first in a Marine and MAC group, who cares let the MAC fully build the RT kill the marines, kill the MAC then hit the RT, in that situation. It seriously feels as though this conversation is being discussed with people who have never really played NS1 either competitively or to the games full extent.
urinalcakeCan't work a sound cardUnited StatesJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7799Members
I feel that MACs should build very slowly, Marines should build much quicker, which makes the marines building a much more powerful supplement.
This ensures that the building gets built EVENTUALLY, but marines have incentive to build, in order to get it done quicker. MACS would just have to build at a creeping pace.
You can choose your role, heck I want to build stuff. Supporting or helping the MAC's. And with this I invest my own hard earned virtual money into it. To be able to actually build stuff. I'll gladly give up my switchaxe (or maybe even my gun) for a building tool (welder to weld people/doors and other stuff maybe?). This way the MAC's don't become useless, because not everyone will buy a buildtool. But at least the players have a choose to give up some firepower for a support class...
Why do some of you people insist that building stuff isn't fun, that is your opinion. You can go out and kill/defend stuff with your bullets. I'd rather be a techie that supports the troops... Go away trying to enforce your opinion on others! it also doesn't hurt to have more options, you can still ignore them, the MAC's still will take care of the job as well, but would you rather depend on a AI robot or a human?
Being able to build stuff and repair the other's armor and the MAC's and welding stuff shut or open. while also helping the others shoot stuff, with less firepower, due to one slot taken up by the builder/welder tool. THAT sounds like a more fun game to me...
Engineers are severely underrated by the guys who just like to shoot stuff...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe this idea could be extended further - player should be able choose (for example) betveen gunner, techmarine or medic by buying appropriate equiment at armory. The selection at armory should contain more than only weapons, but also hacking tools, welders, medical equipment for healing other players, frag/stun/smoke grenades, mines. And there should be something like presets (medic, techmarine, heavy gunner) also players should be able to create hybrid proffesions by combining stuff (eg medic/tech with only pistol)
I liked being able to build as a Marine. I also liked to weld vents, repair armor, and repair structures. As a commander I liked dropping equipment and structures for my clever marines.
In fact, I felt that system was almost perfect.
<rant> The only reason I stopped playing NS1 is because the community shrunk and all my favorite servers died.
I pre-ordered NS2 mostly as a "thank you" for all the fun I had playing NS1 for free.
I'm not thrilled about the changes in NS2 but I'm willing to give it a try. </rant>
<!--quoteo(post=1791706:date=Aug 4 2010, 02:22 PM:name=Rendy_CZech)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rendy_CZech @ Aug 4 2010, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe this idea could be extended further - player should be able choose (for example) betveen gunner, techmarine or medic by buying appropriate equiment at armory. The selection at armory should contain more than only weapons, but also hacking tools, welders, medical equipment for healing other players, frag/stun/smoke grenades, mines. And there should be something like presets (medic, techmarine, heavy gunner) also players should be able to create hybrid proffesions by combining stuff (eg medic/tech with only pistol)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? ...really? Why not just go and play TF2, that's pretty much what you're talking about. This game isn't TF2 or any other game. This is Natural Selection. If you want more classes go play TF2. In L4D1/2 do you see their classes with different abilities? Hell no. How about in Counter-Strike, the most popular FPS game, do their different 'classes' have different abilities, no just different skins. Don't get me wrong, I love Team Fortress Classic, now that was a fast/fun game.
The whole idea about having different 'classes' just doesn't work with NS2. I for one find it just an idea that shouldn't even be considered. it's MARINES vs aliens. not Marines/Gunners/Medics vs Aliens. Your medic, is your commander, your gunners are your marines and your marines are your marines..
The MAC is a simple addition that no one here has even tested. Besides the little alpha that we have, where nothing is tweaked nor do we have the full game implemented yet, i think Charlie said that only 30% of the games content was actually in the alpha. So seriously everyone saying that the MAC shouldn't even be there to build or even in the game, you are full of it. You haven't even fully tested or tried the MAC yet. Wait till further down the line, where we can actually test the MAC how it handles with aliens, and everything. Till then bringing up more ideas that make no sense or just simply way too complicated for no reason at all should be ignored till we can actually test everything out.
...I'm not a fan at all of their alien counterpart, but I feel like MACs fit the Marines a bit better. Escorting vital gear through hostile territory is perfect for Marine themes; whereas the aliens feel like they should have a more reactive and distributed style of growth.
Of course, simply letting the aliens build anywhere while restricting the marines so would be unfair without some other tradeoff.
I'd suggest restricting the aliens to only allow chamber growth on dynamic infestation. This helps bring gorges (optionally) back into the strategic side, assuming they get that "vomit infestation patches" ability.
Comments
I'd prefer both being able to build independently, I'd compromise on differing build speeds but I don't see it as necessary.
I also think bots will remain useful backups if players can build, although I'm not concerned about them being underused as it's better than relying completely on them IMO.
Marines would have to build slow and the MAC would have to build a bit faster to make it still important but not completely relying on them. And still a target for aliens at times but not a complete blind suicide rush for aliens to kill it. Hmmm... Later on for balance: the number of MACs, health, speed, MAC respawn time, the rate build speeds of MAC and Marines, the length of time certain buildings take to build.
Then it comes down to how fast is too fast for power building and such?
Precisely.
I think the pouring of concern from threads and the overwhelming poll results say people want at least a compromise. It cannot get any more clearer than this. Small and potent changes are fine, but removal and replacement of core mechanics that made this title so popular in the first place is justifiably going to turn away many players. This applies to every other thing that's replaced or reduced to a simpler form as well.
The majority don't want a BRAND new NS. It's the same for CS, TS, DOD, Starcraft. Sure they want progression and evolution but they want the essence and core mechanics still in tact. It doesn't need a drastic makeover, it's already popular. They don't want a watered-down version just so it can attract temporary profits from console kiddies who need to be reminded every 5 seconds R is for reload. NS1 is like the perfect house, but a few changes to the kitchen and maybe an extension is welcomed, but it's still have it be that house you love.
TSS the OP makes his points in the fact that putting the MAC's in the game does in fact remove some of the elements in NS1 that made the entire "building" portion of the game fun for the marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or the fact that sometimes, a marine was smart and stealthy enough to reach an out of the way resnode, which i can drop a tower on (the MACs i sent out keep getting killed very very very easely).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very valid point and with the MAC's put into the game it is now completely removed. This may not of even been the intention of the developers when they designed NS1 but it worked out this way and could really secure an advantage for the marines and their economy in the beginning of the game but at the same time also be a giant risk of wasting resources at such a critical part early on in the game. It was always so intense to fill up on ammo and immediately run off and find a dark corner to hide as you watch 1-3 skulks run by knowing you were just barely unnoticed. You get up and you are now 3/4ths across the map with the commander dropping a res node for you to secure an area normally in Alien territory. While you were building you suddenly hear a click klak or a slip slop and you stop "holding e" and spin around....the sounds stopped, your heart actually starts to race a bit...was it a skulk or gorge just passing by a nearby hallway or have I been noticed???? All is quiet you turn around and begin building again. AMBUSHED! Now its a test of skill to see if you can recover from the attack and secure the area. To me this was invigorating, an adrenaline rush and a very fun aspect of Natural Selection. It got even better when you were discovered by a skulk who had the same idea and you two kind of met at the "half way" point and duked it out...now the alien or potential aliens know you are there and it just became even more riskier.
The MAC's from what I am seeing are going to take the shortest route to their designated spot and travel down the middle of the hall ways or just in straight or diagonal lines. There for taking the shortest route to the area they are going to build in creates the issue that eventually Aliens are going to know where these MAC's are going to always travel if they anticipate the marines will try and build in this location, almost in a sense making this aspect of the game, linear. The Aliens will know there are marines guarding the MAC and traveling down said hallways and rooms. This almost forces Combat and removes the whole "Stealth/Ninja" approach to the game for the Marines. You could argu the commander could guide the MAC a different direction...this IMO just takes the commanders attention away from other important things going on in the game across the map and creates the high potential for a very slow and irritating escort with the commander more then likely having to take his attention away from the MAC to deal with other things and requests...also leaving the idle MAC and marines in a bad situation. This both irritates the players and takes control away from them.
There is also another issue with the MAC's that I can see being irritating and frustrating. Once the commander tells a MAC to go somewhere it's going to go and not stop unless given the order to stop. This forces the marines to keep moving with the MAC and could force the commander to keep focusing on the MAC to stop it if needed which draws the commanders attention away from other possible important or priority issues happening on another part of the map. Lets give a scenario.
Two marines are escorting a MAC down a hallway. They are attacked. The commander has shifted his/her attention to another issue happening somewhere else. The marines are dealing with a Skulk, lerk (in the future Fade or Onos). The MAC turns a corner, marines are pre-occupied, opps...there was another alien over there and the MAC is dead, possibly the marines too if not they have suffered damage and spent ammo and they have to run all the way back to escort another MAC.
The other argument is that this pretty much just eliminates the marines from facing a building and "holding down e for 15 seconds". It does and it doesn't. Getting technical...it does just eliminate holding down e for 15 seconds. But as stated above it eliminates that sense of vulnerability and teamwork strategy in ways that both marines (or more if there were) could choose to build it quicker by both "holding down e" for said amount of time depending on the building, or one could cover and the other could build.
You can safely argu that the addition of the MAC's is both adding and removing aspects of teamwork involved in building these buildings. In one perspective it requires teamwork to both escort then guard the MAC. But in some sense it almost creates a firing squad. MAC is building, two marines crouched and ready to fire and anything moving that's not human. With the MAC's your also removing an aspect of teamwork. You got a vulnerable team member "holding down e" and he needs protection.
Again both sides hold valid points but my overall ultimate opinion on the matter is. Ditch the MAC's. My opinion and play preference is to actually have to physically be there and "hold down e" myself to build these buildings. MAC's will just force unnecessary combat and IMO takes to much away from teamwork and strategy. They are an innovative idea for this FPS/RTS hybrid, but just not worth it. I enjoyed NS1 primarily because it was an FPS but it involved more strategy and planning rather then just being all about combat.
Once a game, in a very critiacal postion, I beaconed and select all rines and sent them to Silo, cuz we lost Generator and we had to get a hive quick but all of rines went to Cargo hive and smahed by onos then we lost.
You cant see anything like this in any other games. Normally all AI's go to where you way point.
There is something more than commmanding, etc. I really dont know what it is but i like complexity and varieties in a game.
Could one sollution be to let Macs only build in areas already controlled by Marines? This would make the commander be able to upgrade his base and marines to be able to join the battle faster without having an assigned "Build ######" like people used to have in NS1. If you expand to a new area, the MAC could help set up the base there.
The idea of the MAC's building things for the commander is not bad, but the idea of MACs running around in hallways is.
If marine building is omitted (as well as the new siege system which just sounds like more escorting), you don't have any direct influence on the RTS part of the game, because the commander can do it without your help.
I don't see why some people are so vehemently opposed to a compromise. There have been some excellent suggestions about how to combine marine building and MAC building.
Give marines a slower build rate. Make marine building an upgrade option. Give marines a specific tool that allows them to build. Make MACs only functional in "powered-up" areas. Etc.
However, I don't think marine building is the ONLY way to give marines a more involved role in the RTS aspect. If marine building must be omitted, perhaps other features could be introduced, such as allowing Marines to deploy and reposition certain types of buildings (like mobile armouries, mini sentries, etc.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This (wo)man speaks the truth!
I dont think Flayra is "caving in to public opinion" I think he just realises that he too misses that 'danger' feeling.
If bots could build and marines then it does open up another level of strategical decision making, both on the part of the commander and on the part of the marine.
Does he guard the res node and wait for the MAC, or does he try to get it started, move on.. let the MAC finish? or maybe completes the entire building and moves on. If your with two or three marines, does one guard the rest build, all guard wait for the MAC? Is there a designated 'builder' who lets face it always PK's when he panics. At the start does a commander send MACS one way and marines another?...
Apart from the 'intense' feeling of being exposed, not to mention the "shyt my pants" feeling of a cloaked skulk biting ya, or the feeling that, hey, finishing that structure before you died has just won us the game!.. I think the option for marines to build, add's a strategical depth that everyone would enjoy.
If anything, adding the 'option' for marines to build (as well as MACS) would make commanding a lot more interesting.
Probably no one will read it anyway here goes.
I think that building buildings as a marine was one of the highlights in NS1 . I don't like the idea of the bots.
I think it's what made Natural selection Natural selection.
The sneakyness of teleports, sieges,turret farms,armorys, u name it i loved it.
It will be greatly missed as it changes the gameplay dramatically.
It could be for the better you never know i guess we wait and see.
But why change something that works.
All i ever wanted from NS2 was an upgrade in the graphics.
Anyway Love your work , dont mean to be a random knocking your skills.
I posted pretty uch all i wanted to say in the OP, but I'll clarify on the hand of some of the oppinions i've seen (i didn't read the entire thread though. 21 pages, lol :p)
I'll tell a little more about the game that got me to this idea. I was playing marine trying to shoot lerks who at this point at pretty much invunrable when their flying. It was fun for a while but a few games in i wanted to try and build some stuff (the lerks got bored as well). It was on a 12 man server, even though the play list showed 36 people in the readyroom at some point :p I jumped into the command chair with another marine, he became the commander, i became stuck in the commanders chair (after the kill-patch). The game after that, i got in and build the armory, got a hang of the menu's etc.
The first thing i noticed was i couldn't acces the buildings anymore. I had to select a MAC. Which somehow felt counter intuitive, It's a completly logical system i know, the problem is with me as i used to zip through all the menu's with shortkeys and that's different now. No problem, will take some getting used to. Building the armory didn't give much of a problem, as it was build in base. I upgraded it and ran out of resources. After locating the symbol for carbon (kinda hard to tell without a tutorial but i figured it out :p) i decided it was time to go and collect resources.
Now, the troubling part begins. As per NS1, i went to the closest RT with a marine and tried to drop a tower, which didn't work obviously. This disturbed me greatly because this is a HUGE gameplay change, it completly overthrows all dynamics that made NS1 such a fast playing game. It'll mean you'll have to move to a RT point tactically since you have a VIB to protect (very important bot :P), while NS1 was run your legs off and build it first. You will not need to watch your back when building, you won't be building, you'll have to watch the bot's back. in NS1, if you where building and a skulk came around the corner, that builder turned into a deadly marine with a gun. I've had situations where i've killed 3 skulks on my own before the phase gate was up. Now it'll only take 2 skulks to win: 1 to chase the marine, the other to chew the bot.
However, as i was still ingame i rolled with it. While the marines where busy doing what they do best - shooting bullits - i thought "well if i could move to a spot stealthy as a player surely i can make this bot do the same". Well, no. Each time i was forced to watch from above as a skulk came around the corner and chewed it's backside. Those fragile little bots go down fast, too. This lead me to the conclusion that, if the MAC gets chewed on the way to ANY assault, regardless of how many marines are present, your push is gone and you need to head back to base to get another MAC. Considering they cost money to make compounds the problem.
I was not the only one in these concirns, as without saying anything the marines automatically escorted the MAC with 2 people. i followed them (having just enough res for 1 res tower since none of the solo-MAC's made it so i couldn't drop health packs) they reached the RT and i dropped the tower. While still building it, 3 skulks came and started chasing the marines, leaving the MAC alone at first but quickly chewing it up after the 2 marines where dead. Now, the hitreg bug comes into play making it harder on the marines, but because it's a new game the skulks didn't go for the MAC untill the marines where dead. You can bet your ass as a skulk as soon as i see a chance i'll be eating a good ol' Mc MAC.
Anyway we lost that round no problem because of lack of resources. i played 2-3 more rounds as a commander, but that went pretty much the same. I got 2 RT's down total, all the other MAC's got eaten, and the 2 RT's got eaten about 3 minutes after they where up. But of course, this is only half of the story.
After those rounds, i started playing as a grunt again. This time, paying attention to what i had just picked up. However, i cannot escape my memories. After dealing with the first wave of skulks as per usual, i set about hunting resource points. Only when i found my way to one, preparing to defend it for a MAC arrival.... I found that the RT had already been build and a idle MAC was floating besides it. I felt....dissapointed. There was nothing for me to defend, as the point was reached of the next push. I felt, unneeded, mostly.
After reviewing my first night of alpha, i made the OP. Like i said, i'm not afraid of change, but afraid of changes that are bad. I've been gaming since the good ol 'days of quake, so don't think i don't love shooting stuff. But it has been a decade since NS1. I've shot stuff in every way imaginable. On the RTS side i've conquered the world more times then i even care to remember. I've seen the shooting stuff. What i haven't seen since NS1, is more then shooting stuff.
Also, if you take the arguement of "just shoot stuff", then NS2 sucks. It's by far and large not the best game even in it's projected final state. There are so many games that do shooting stuff better: Bad company 2, destructability. CS:S, tactics. UT3, chaos and mayhem. Alien VS Predator, uniqueness in classes. Modern Warfare 2: weapons/xp/kill streak upgrades.
It's not about pressing "e". It's about battle in a whole different manner. NS1 was a fast paced game, where building forward bases was the key to winning, Building a solid defence was the key to survival, Building RT's was nessecary for the commander to support *you*. Because *you* build stuff.
I guess to make a simple comparison after a long post: In NS2, currently, i feel like one of those guys i train in the barracks in C&C, that runs out and shoots stuff i order it too. In NS1, nothing. There is no comparison to the feeling i got from NS1. and i don't mean "this game is unique", no, i mean it's genre is unique. It's the only game to have done FPS/RTS correctly. In a decade worth of shooters which all do the same thing, shooting bullits, only Empires is a mod i can remember in which you build something. I played that too, i liked that too, but it doesn't hold a candle to NS1.
As allways, just my oppinion on the matter. On to page 40! :p
I think the ability to shift dynamically between the roles is one of the huge cornerstones of NS marine teamwork. There's a huge difference between an average team and a good team on how efficient they are on getting the tasks done and adjusting to the situation.
In many situations, builder is still one of the important roles, let it be RT, PG, TF or sieges, or even an obs or replacement armslab. In many situations removing the builder role limits marine to more or less of a guard. In a group of 4 you've got 4 guards while the mac builds and neither the MAC or marine is cabable of adjusting much. Wth the marines able to build, you'd have possibility to shift between 1 to 5 builders depending on the situation, MAC possibly welding while a few marines build or so on.
Mixing up roles suddenly turned the situation into far more diverse situation where a good team adjusts to the situation, communicates and possibly takes risks.
I don't want MACs gone nor do I want to force marines to hold 'e' to build every remote res node or tech building at base. MACs are good for mechanical tasks, but I'd really appreciate if the marines still had the option to adjust into enough of roles, including a momentarily builder or welder when necessary. That dynamic adjustment is a big part of NS' teamwork beauty.
I stated my piece in another thread, I must also admit I am a long time gamer. I played Q1 and Q1 TF back in the day on 33k and then 56k modems. I even played MUDS (Text Based MMO's), this went onto games like Warcraft 1, EQ, Halflife, Halflife 2 so I like to think I am well versed in games and what they offer.
If you remove the players ability to build from NS1. I think you remove what made NS the game it was. Each and every player could play a different role in a solid hybrid RTS/FPS game. For those who wanted FPS they could do it. For those would want RTS the commander would be the best role and for those who enjoyed a Mix, building / gorge was perfect. This allowed friends who wanted a slightly different type of game to all gather in one server as friends and enjoy themselves by doing what they liked. The best example is 2 of my friends who love counterstrike always assumed an FPS role, they never built buildings or went Gorge, they just loved killing ###### which was fine, me and my brother preferred to gorge or commander alot and sometimes to break it up would just FPS it. This meant the game was both interesting and enjoyable to a broad array of people in the one game. It also was relatively quick (unlike an MMO, or Diablo 2 or warcraft 3 which all take long times). Games get boring when you end up doing the same sort of thing over and over. The best aspect of NS1 was so many games unfolded so differently, nobody ever knew what was going to happen. Suprise attacks, ninja buildings, different strategies but i do know one thing. It needs to be fast paced FPS while also integrating the RTS. I do believe the current setup is too slow, adding some suggestions both adds to the pace of the game and to the RTS aspect (Involvement and ownership to the team and to the win) and a game that further involves and draws a player in will be more successful than one where the commander feels that sense while the players just fight over the number of kills they got. It will get old quickly and the player base will fade.
Oh and like a lot of people have been saying, i'm all for more gameplay, and even pressing an 'e' to increase the rate of finishing the build can add a lot more depth in gameplay then people think, also adds another job to prevent boredom.
I mean you can even make it a lot more charismatic then 'just pressing e' implies. For instance, holding e on the object and then moving your mouse rotates your torso to look to the side for incoming enemies or what not *giggle*!
Anyways thats my 2cents, i'm sure the devs have it all sorted!
Peace.
I agree on the proposition that marines should be able to build (thereby making the building go up faster). But, I feel there should always be a mac there, when the building is deployed.
reason: How the hell can one marine carry an rt on his back? yeah, good question.. Makes me wonder about ns1 where buildings popped out of nowhere..
Anyway, how can a MAC carry around an rt? I've got a suggestion!
At base, build a supply depot, where MAC's "refill", so they can build more buildings.
But how should this add up? Building rt's is a task that should be done fast!
But think again, friends! The marines got highly developed equipment, so why not make their resource points, go in 2/3 faster than normal (because of their tech)?
But that if is you guys see it as I do; buildings out of nowhere - hmm....
But back to topic:
As already said, I support the idea of having marines building stuff, making buildings go up faster.
And, I support giving the Gorge freedom to build stuff himself, but perhaps not huge buildings (because of the same reason rines can't build. How can a gorge create a hive? Perhaps add limit: bigger structures require more gorges (or simply a buildbug from the hive)!).
Building was a key element in NS1 - honor it!
I stated my piece in another thread, I must also admit I am a long time gamer. I played Q1 and Q1 TF back in the day on 33k and then 56k modems. I even played MUDS (Text Based MMO's), this went onto games like Warcraft 1, EQ, Halflife, Halflife 2 so I like to think I am well versed in games and what they offer.
If you remove the players ability to build from NS1. I think you remove what made NS the game it was. Each and every player could play a different role in a solid hybrid RTS/FPS game. For those who wanted FPS they could do it. For those would want RTS the commander would be the best role and for those who enjoyed a Mix, building / gorge was perfect. This allowed friends who wanted a slightly different type of game to all gather in one server as friends and enjoy themselves by doing what they liked. The best example is 2 of my friends who love counterstrike always assumed an FPS role, they never built buildings or went Gorge, they just loved killing ###### which was fine, me and my brother preferred to gorge or commander alot and sometimes to break it up would just FPS it. This meant the game was both interesting and enjoyable to a broad array of people in the one game. It also was relatively quick (unlike an MMO, or Diablo 2 or warcraft 3 which all take long times). Games get boring when you end up doing the same sort of thing over and over. The best aspect of NS1 was so many games unfolded so differently, nobody ever knew what was going to happen. Suprise attacks, ninja buildings, different strategies but i do know one thing. It needs to be fast paced FPS while also integrating the RTS. I do believe the current setup is too slow, adding some suggestions both adds to the pace of the game and to the RTS aspect (Involvement and ownership to the team and to the win) and a game that further involves and draws a player in will be more successful than one where the commander feels that sense while the players just fight over the number of kills they got. It will get old quickly and the player base will fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree :)
heck even i miss the part about building.. the Mac are fine if you are a human. But they should make it so a marine could build too (Ie the commander needs to build a packet(at the main base) and then the marines could pick it up and drop it off at the siege point(the macs could help build it, or even drop it. this way there would still be need for some guarding of this "packet"
Just my opinion :)
//Matrix
(sry if i have bad grammar :)
This is why Natural selection makes a good 'public game' as well as a good 'Clan match' game.
In a public game you have a mix of skills which makes it appealing because each game is radically different and can hinge on a few factors. If it were JUST mac's building then the game is gona get pretty predictable very quickly. (just go for the MACS)
but is there any reason why we cant have 'rule-sets' ? Why does it have to be just one way, and one way only?.. Personally I'd love an NS1 rule set, maybe an ns1/ns2 ruleset hybrid (Macs + marines building) And maybe a hardcore NS2 ruleset (MACS Only)
This should be the only discussion: "Should marines be able to press 'e'(or whatever) to help build if they want to help build with the MAC, yes or no?"
if NO then done. if YES then okay.
There shouldn't be this entire discussion of dumb ideas and ###### back and forth. All these people want is the ability to help build for some reason, don't know why, but they do. So let them, but just allow it so that 1 or 2 people MAX can help a MAC speed up the build process.
Anyway, how can a MAC carry around an rt? I've got a suggestion!
At base, build a supply depot, where MAC's "refill", so they can build more buildings.
But how should this add up? Building rt's is a task that should be done fast!
But that if is you guys see it as I do; buildings out of nowhere - hmm....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the realism/plausibility of gameplay aspects is that important in a sci-fi shooter.
Sure, "holding e" doesn't sound interesting on paper, but ingame, I remember the feeling of being vulnerable and hoping I wouldn't get caught building, or that my fellow marines could hold off the enemy. If you were alone, you'd be building, the commander would warn something was coming your way, and you'd hold off with intense uncertainty and hope the alien would pass by and not spot you so you could continue building again.
The unknown is a very good technique in gaming, and removing that uncertainty and unknown can truly destroy the immersion of a game. That's why GM events are so popular in MMOs...they break away from the "norm" of exactly what you'd expect from logging in. You'll be playing and know that something different could happen.
There's no reason to limit gameplay for players...and even REDUCE gameplay from NS1. Leave the ability for players to build structures, and allow MACs to simply be there as a support role. The driving force of the game should be the players, not NPCs.
Apart from the fact that its dangerous (cant shoot), exciting (I prey there's no skulks about), fun (yay, I helped makes somethings), atmospheric (did I just hear something?) for me it adds strategical depth... not just for marines, but for aliens too (go for marine or for mac) and for the commander. Its a win win for everyone.
I think my first year of playing is whenever i felt anything exciting when building an RT. After that it was just a pointless snorefest. "*Yawn.. skulk is coming, i'll trick him to coming to me, or since I know where he's coming from i'll go out and kill him." It isn't dangerous, you listen, you hear, you shoot. If they have silence, you pay attention to your surroundings, even if you see them running around the corner you can jump away and shoot at them and avoid their bites to kill them, and again you win. It's only dangerous if you have no idea how to pay attention or move properly.
And obviously you'd go for the marines first in a Marine and MAC group, who cares let the MAC fully build the RT kill the marines, kill the MAC then hit the RT, in that situation. It seriously feels as though this conversation is being discussed with people who have never really played NS1 either competitively or to the games full extent.
This ensures that the building gets built EVENTUALLY, but marines have incentive to build, in order to get it done quicker. MACS would just have to build at a creeping pace.
You can choose your role, heck I want to build stuff. Supporting or helping the MAC's. And with this I invest my own hard earned virtual money into it. To be able to actually build stuff. I'll gladly give up my switchaxe (or maybe even my gun) for a building tool (welder to weld people/doors and other stuff maybe?). This way the MAC's don't become useless, because not everyone will buy a buildtool. But at least the players have a choose to give up some firepower for a support class...
Why do some of you people insist that building stuff isn't fun, that is your opinion. You can go out and kill/defend stuff with your bullets. I'd rather be a techie that supports the troops... Go away trying to enforce your opinion on others! it also doesn't hurt to have more options, you can still ignore them, the MAC's still will take care of the job as well, but would you rather depend on a AI robot or a human?
Being able to build stuff and repair the other's armor and the MAC's and welding stuff shut or open. while also helping the others shoot stuff, with less firepower, due to one slot taken up by the builder/welder tool. THAT sounds like a more fun game to me...
Engineers are severely underrated by the guys who just like to shoot stuff...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe this idea could be extended further - player should be able choose (for example) betveen gunner, techmarine or medic by buying appropriate equiment at armory. The selection at armory should contain more than only weapons, but also hacking tools, welders, medical equipment for healing other players, frag/stun/smoke grenades, mines. And there should be something like presets (medic, techmarine, heavy gunner) also players should be able to create hybrid proffesions by combining stuff (eg medic/tech with only pistol)
In fact, I felt that system was almost perfect.
<rant>
The only reason I stopped playing NS1 is because the community shrunk and all my favorite servers died.
I pre-ordered NS2 mostly as a "thank you" for all the fun I had playing NS1 for free.
I'm not thrilled about the changes in NS2 but I'm willing to give it a try.
</rant>
Sincerely,
[FAT]Matt!-RgB
On a side note, any of you alpha participants want to do a night of ns1 followed by some ns2? Just a thought. Send me a pm if interested.
Really? ...really? Why not just go and play TF2, that's pretty much what you're talking about. This game isn't TF2 or any other game. This is Natural Selection. If you want more classes go play TF2. In L4D1/2 do you see their classes with different abilities? Hell no. How about in Counter-Strike, the most popular FPS game, do their different 'classes' have different abilities, no just different skins. Don't get me wrong, I love Team Fortress Classic, now that was a fast/fun game.
The whole idea about having different 'classes' just doesn't work with NS2. I for one find it just an idea that shouldn't even be considered. it's MARINES vs aliens. not Marines/Gunners/Medics vs Aliens. Your medic, is your commander, your gunners are your marines and your marines are your marines..
The MAC is a simple addition that no one here has even tested. Besides the little alpha that we have, where nothing is tweaked nor do we have the full game implemented yet, i think Charlie said that only 30% of the games content was actually in the alpha. So seriously everyone saying that the MAC shouldn't even be there to build or even in the game, you are full of it. You haven't even fully tested or tried the MAC yet. Wait till further down the line, where we can actually test the MAC how it handles with aliens, and everything. Till then bringing up more ideas that make no sense or just simply way too complicated for no reason at all should be ignored till we can actually test everything out.
Of course, simply letting the aliens build anywhere while restricting the marines so would be unfair without some other tradeoff.
I'd suggest restricting the aliens to only allow chamber growth on dynamic infestation. This helps bring gorges (optionally) back into the strategic side, assuming they get that "vomit infestation patches" ability.