<!--quoteo(post=1791557:date=Aug 4 2010, 03:53 AM:name=Snazz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snazz @ Aug 4 2010, 03:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand what you're concerned about, however Charlie hasn't 'bowed down' he just said he was considering our feedback.
Whilst I recognize that a lot hasn't been implemented yet and game play will change dramatically before release, being dependent on bots to build is an obvious on-going problem IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
building on what your saying, Charlie has played further builds then what we have access to and has admitted to also missing the aspect and tension from marines being able to build as well, why can't they (against marine building) take this into account as well, stated directly from one of the game creators fingers. It's not like he's just taking our opinions and views, but he stated in his OWN view based on his game play experience, which happens to somewhat align with us. The man is more then capable of making up his own mind, how about giving him some more credit? All while having the ability to listen and take feedback from the community, again it's a respectable trait. -- Directed to Kwil not you Snazz.
You will see which choice is winning the votes, meaning more people want it that way, meaning more people that never played the game will find it appealing.. meaning more sales and success.
And to build on what Snazz is saying, let's say you ONLY have enough resources for an IP and you got no builder bots.. well the com drops an IP and the entire team stands there looking at it.. doing nothing because somehow magically marines forgot how to build structures after a few years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's certainly easy enough to remedy, right? First bot is free. Problem solved.
<!--quoteo(post=1791568:date=Aug 4 2010, 04:08 AM:name=shiv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiv @ Aug 4 2010, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's certainly easy enough to remedy, right? First bot is free. Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not entirely sure how this solves anything, I would hope at some point during the game the commander chose to build some MAC's.. if not well you shouldn't even bother getting an IP at that point.
<!--quoteo(post=1791502:date=Aug 4 2010, 03:59 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Aug 4 2010, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what you guys are talking about, the whole commander/marine unity crap. I've played NS competitively since pretty much release, and the only 'unity' I ever had with the commander was him telling me where to go, 'hit the hive, go to that RT, meet up with so and so here'. The part pretty much NO ONE wanted to do in competitive play was stay back and build a base, we just don't care for it, it's a waste of time when you could be out and about doing something more useful, like taking out alien RTs, getting positioning at key points. In competitive play for NS1 I think mostly all of the people I know would agree that it's such a waste of time to have the marines build the structures.
The commander has ALWAYS been the guy to just say 'go here, and do this' there was never any 'oh i feel so close to the commander, because i'm building base for him.' Sorry no. I think all commanders would agree that they would much rather send out all their marines to do something more useful than just build base, if it were possible, now it is.
Keep it as it is, let MACs be the main builders, if need be add in that marines can click their 'E' button if they feel a sense of togetherness with the commander. But definitely do not make it that marines have to be the ones to build. I can tell you in all honesty that in competitive play MACs will be the main the main builders for everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you really thought about this? I'm also coming from a comp background and I agree that its far better to have the MAC's build spawn and the far away rts / recap etc. BUT there is a huge drawback to having just the MAC's being able to build.
So you have just made this push into a critical part of the map and need to get some buildings up, the aliens come to rush you but instead of going for the 5 marines in the room they all just target the stupid floating AI unit. The aliens have just sacrificed half their team, but at the same time without killing any marine players have effectively crippled the marine push.
Can you imagine the rage and frustration this would cause ("OH FFS THE STUPID FKING AI BOT WAS KILLED" , COM: "DONT WORRY GUYS IM SENDING ANOTHER ONE JUST HANG AROUND FOR A WHILE UNTIL IT FLIES THERE")
For this reason alone the marines need to be able to build.
Apart from this, I believe that building is one of the main core aspects of NS1. You have to balance getting the building up VS staying alive. (in ns1 I can remember all those epic times where I finished the PG whilst being eaten by a skulk, dying just as it became active).
I suppose all this can be fixed when the holes in the gameplay appear during the alpha/beta, but I think a discussion like the one that's currently happening is positive for the direction of the game
<!--quoteo(post=1791570:date=Aug 4 2010, 02:12 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 4 2010, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not entirely sure how this solves anything, I would hope at some point during the game the commander chose to build some MAC's.. if not well you shouldn't even bother getting an IP at that point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I guess I wasn't very clear. What I meant is if any point in the game you've been reduced to 0 bots, you could create a single bot at no cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1791576:date=Aug 4 2010, 02:39 AM:name=Narcil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narcil @ Aug 4 2010, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you really thought about this? I'm also coming from a comp background and I agree that its far better to have the MAC's build spawn and the far away rts / recap etc. BUT there is a huge drawback to having just the MAC's being able to build.
So you have just made this push into a critical part of the map and need to get some buildings up, the aliens come to rush you but instead of going for the 5 marines in the room they all just target the stupid floating AI unit. The aliens have just sacrificed half their team, but at the same time without killing any marine players have effectively crippled the marine push.
Can you imagine the rage and frustration this would cause ("OH FFS THE STUPID FKING AI BOT WAS KILLED" , COM: "DONT WORRY GUYS IM SENDING ANOTHER ONE JUST HANG AROUND FOR A WHILE UNTIL IT FLIES THERE")
For this reason alone the marines need to be able to build.
Apart from this, I believe that building is one of the main core aspects of NS1. You have to balance getting the building up VS staying alive. (in ns1 I can remember all those epic times where I finished the PG whilst being eaten by a skulk, dying just as it became active).
I suppose all this can be fixed when the holes in the game-play appear during the alpha/beta, but I think a discussion like the one that's currently happening is positive for the direction of the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the time it took for a build-bot to get to you became a playability problem perhaps one way to resolve it would be to allows bots to attach to squads and "jump" to their position similar to what they're planning on implementing for players.
<!--quoteo(post=1791580:date=Aug 4 2010, 09:52 AM:name=shiv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiv @ Aug 4 2010, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the time it took for a build-bot to get to you became a playability problem perhaps one way to resolve it would be to allows bots to attach to squads and "jump" to their position similar to what they're planning on implementing for players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but this just seems so tacky to solve a problem that doesn't need to be here in the first place. There's innovation and then there's redundancy.
<!--quoteo(post=1791581:date=Aug 4 2010, 04:55 AM:name=QuadLMGkill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (QuadLMGkill @ Aug 4 2010, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, but this just seems so tacky to solve a problem that doesn't need to be here in the first place. There's innovation and then there's redundancy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is the lack of marine building. If you dislike it, then you have the choice to never build a single building, the game changes in no way what so ever for you, but for us who want to build still have NO option at all.
So far I have yet to see a single reasoning for those pro MAC's only as to WHY it actually makes the game better in anyway while I've seen countless post made for why marines building also would improve the game, and their enjoyment from it. Again... if you dislike marine building then just don't build, it's very simple. So how exactly is having a choice impacting anything game play wise for any of you against it??
but its to early do "suggest" comm and player relations at this stage of alfa.
Then you are free to desscuse it..
Before jumping in to the marine build or not i like to see what the commander as to offer in NS2 and not in its current state.
Doh i like to see that marines can build, like emergency or have em build and use the bots/npc to build on other places where there is no marines. or something.
Perhaps you misread my post. When I mentioned "problem that didn't have to be" that refereed to having an automated building system in the first place. However, I am all for a dual building compromise :) I completely agree with your post. It seems a fool-proof move to transition marine building over, well it seemed.
<!--quoteo(post=1791589:date=Aug 4 2010, 05:20 AM:name=QuadLMGkill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (QuadLMGkill @ Aug 4 2010, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps you misread my post. When I mentioned "problem that didn't have to be" that refereed to having an automated building system in the first place. However, I am all for a dual building compromise :) I completely agree with your post. It seems a fool-proof move to transition marine building over, well it seemed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just Delete the drifters, make the mac being able to build only near the CC so its help the comm but not take out the gameplay.
i really cant imagine playin NS2 like that with drifter and mac doing everything.
i know its only the alpha, so there is still hope the devs change their minds because, i really will never love an NS2 where gorge are useless and marines just wonder in the map like CS without having to build or anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1791091:date=Aug 3 2010, 02:23 PM:name=cmc5788)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cmc5788 @ Aug 3 2010, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Building structures is the most concrete way to make a marine feel like they're really a part of the RTS model, too, and I like it that way.
Also, I don't think building slows down gameplay. In fact, it helps to solidify the aliens' role. If you let marines build, they should win. Aliens need to be constantly ambushing/stalking/harassing marines as they attempt to do so. That's what makes for the game's very intense feel. If you're a marine, you're always venturing out to build, anticipating attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>THIS</b>
The banner being waved above NS2 that says "Hey look at our game, we are a FPS - RTS hybrid!!" leads to gamers thinking there will be RTS elements when they play. Removing marine building would be removing whatever scant RTS elements there were for non-commander players. Essentially, it would be a FPS for everyone but one person and an RTS for one person.
Seriously, get rid of MACs and drifters. You would be cutting off a very important appendage from Natural Selection, period.
<!--QuoteBegin-"jimmyd"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("jimmyd")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Less Marines fighting, the slower gameplay becomes. Also having high Structure HP(but you changed that).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The ability for marines to also build does not slow down gameplay!! why? 1) Marine time spent building accelerates tech tree and resource advancement. It allows marines more efficient utilization of marine idle time. 2) FASTER gameplay does NOT always mean BETTER gameplay. ns1 co_ maps were considerably 'faster' than ns_ maps in terms of less time spent building. did that make for better 'gameplay'?. - How about we just make all maps 1 room so we have less time spent walking too and more time spent fighting?
<b>situation 1 -</b> 2 marines guard a MAC who is building a resource tower time taken for resource tower / turrets etc. to build and for marines to advance to next area = MAC build time
<b>situation 2 -</b> 1 marine guard and the other helps the MAC build the resource tower total time taken for resource tower to build and for marines to advance < MAC build time
In situation 2 - marines advance faster BUT take on more risk in doing so. There is a risk and reward tradeoff and i think that in itself is an engaging gameplay. Not allowing marines the option to build WILL produce linear and boring gameplay and <b>make playing as a marine the same as any other fps</b>. If anything i think the people advocating against marine building are the ones who want a carbon copy of other fps's they play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still say it is a bad idea(because you would have to do that Ghost Structure stuff again)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the ability for marines to help build structures does not necessarily require ghost structures. The MAC places structure via commander, and marines help build it. voila.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but people will just be lazy and start yelling at Players to build the base and stuff because they are lazy at Commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then the problem is the commander and NOT the gameplay. completely invalid arguement
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And like I said, it doesn't make sense in NS1 how Marines could build a structure without a Welder, and we have a replacement for that; the MAC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> nanites. If you want to pull out the realism arguement, it also doesnt make sense how a MAC can build such highly complicated buildings out of thin air in 10seconds.
My thoughts are that commanders shouldnt only have to deal with MACs but also have to connect with and rely on their fellow marines.
The banner being waved above NS2 that says "Hey look at our game, we are a FPS - RTS hybrid!!" leads to gamers thinking there will be RTS elements when they play. Removing marine building would be removing whatever scant RTS elements there were for non-commander players. Essentially, it would be a FPS for everyone but one person and an RTS for one person.
Seriously, get rid of MACs and drifters. You would be cutting off a very important appendage from Natural Selection, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I played NS for years and so many times Ive had problems with players too busy trying to kill fades, aliens or a hive and they refuse to build new buildings at the base. Or go around and rebuild destroyed RT's. I personally LOVE the ingenuity of the devs to build that RTS feel into it with the MAC's. However I share others sentiments about it being an RTS for one and an FPS for the rest. I think the players should be able to get involved, even if its only on a very small scale. Personally some of my fondest memories of the games are the games where you ninja built a phase gate at a hive before phasing the whole team through with HMG's and destroy it. Or building a phase gate before a siege outside a siege before the aliens are aware. It was intense when your the only one there espcially when you need to stop kill a skulk and quickly doing it knowing their team now knows what your doing. Your hearts pumping as you complete it and you get a real buzz when you win it from building that one structure. This aspect is too good to lose.
Vice Versa, theres many games where we dropped a hive and stayed well away from it while it built due to a phase gate nearby or even in the room and when it was built you would rush the phase quickly before they could build a siege. It was intense and often didnt pay off but those games were the most enjoyable, memorable and intense and really captivate players. Removing this I think removes a massive aspect of what appealed to the player base.
My suggestions to improve the game are very similar to many already suggested. MAC upgrade to allow it to teleport to any marine on the map, Vice Versa for Aliens to Gorge Marines being able to build (I dont even mind if this is 25% of the speed) and/or alien commanders being able to place buildings in the vicinity of a friendly gorge. Marines needing an upgrade to build (This could be a commander upgrade, a player upgrade at the armoury, buying of a welder or a combination of any of these). Vice versa perhaps the Gorge should be able to purchase an upgrade from one of the chambers to be able to build structures/have the commander able to place structures near the gorge (They should be a glowing colour on the minimap perhaps).
My personal (and by no means the best option) would be a combination of the above. I would like to see the alien side being able to teleport drifters to friendly gorges (perhaps they are even stunned for 5 seconds after teleporting) and Marines should either build slower and/or require an upgrade to build structures. I believe it should be available from the start or very early. E.g. replacing the Pistol with a welder at no cost from the armoury. So those who choose not to build will have the advantage of a 2nd weapon while those who enjoy it can assist their team (repair armour, structures and build) and have a more RTS style game influence.
Whatever is done, I do think we need something to allow for those intense once a week style games where someone tries something very sneaky and it pays off. As to me those games really made NS the enjoyable game it was. Otherwise I think pubs will be a carbon copy virtually every time, giving more flexibility opens the game to more options and possibilities leading to more exciting and enjoyable games.
The banner being waved above NS2 that says "Hey look at our game, we are a FPS - RTS hybrid!!" leads to gamers thinking there will be RTS elements when they play. Removing marine building would be removing whatever scant RTS elements there were for non-commander players. Essentially, it would be a FPS for everyone but one person and an RTS for one person.
Seriously, get rid of MACs and drifters. You would be cutting off a very important appendage from Natural Selection, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you not read anything about MACs or drifters, listened to the podcasts or anything? Not only are these new additions helpful for building they're also great for team support. The MAC can attack, drop mines, use EMP blast (which i hope we find out soon what it does). The drifter can sacrifice himself and by doing so can have a flashbang effect which would temporarily blind the marines, imagine ALL the possibilities that can be done to make a game more exciting when playing with these additions added to the front lines?
Also, there is a thing called <u><b>REPLICATE</b></u>. Which when it's purchased by the commander, allows the commander to REPLICATE a structure, and drop it and it builds automatically, by itself, no need for MAC or marine. Need another turret/seige or whatever, REPLICATE, DROP, auto-builds. No need for MAC to build or even marines, lets us focus on other things.
I'm all up for marines being able to press 'E' or whatever to help build I really am, but if you completely remove the MAC as a builder it's just dumb, let the MAC be the main builder, building structures quickly, but if marines want to help out to build the structure just that much faster, then let it be so. But only allow it to where it's max building speed is when 1 MAC and 1 Marine are building (maybe even 2).
<!--quoteo(post=1791557:date=Aug 4 2010, 02:53 AM:name=Snazz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Snazz @ Aug 4 2010, 02:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand what you're concerned about, however Charlie hasn't 'bowed down' he just said he was considering our feedback.
Whilst I recognize that a lot hasn't been implemented yet and game play will change dramatically before release, being dependent on bots to build is an obvious on-going problem IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's not obvious at all. I've seen what people list as the downsides of it several times, and none of that really holds water to me, especially when we have a fuller implementation and working hitboxes.
Let's go through them, and if you can point out where I'm wrong, then we can have a discussion.
1. Lessens interaction between commander and marine. -- How? Commanders are dependant on marines to ensure the MACs stay alive. Marines are dependant on commanders to be watching them and the mac and making adjustments to the course as things develop. I only see this increasing the interactivity once we get out of the NS1 mindset and people realize they actually have to communicate more than "Go to double RT" "At double, comm, drop RTs pls."
2. Removes support role for marines who suck at shooting (and I include myself in that group) aka Game becomes only about shooting. Right now this may be the case, but there are enough things in the pipeline that I think we'll see this support role adequately covered in future even with a pure MAC building situation. 2. a) Building added tension -- That's an artificial tension, which, if you're so desirous of it, can be easily replicated as a choice for a marine.. my "face the wall and see if you can count to 30 while the MAC builds" scenario. Same results. And of course, this is still before we get things like welding doors, repairing structures, or even repairing the MAC itself, which will bring that role actually back into the game if your imagination isn't good enough otherwise.
3. Dislike escorting AI. You're not. You're escorting a commander controlled unit. If your commander leaves it to the AI to pilot, that's your commanders fault. A good commander, when he sends out a MAC/Building mission is paying attention to it, or relying on the team to let him know when something's up and he needs to get in there and take some control. (Back to that "more interaction")
4. Can't ninja PG/Siege/command centre. Yeah, well, considering there's no PG or siege cannon/comm centre with aribrary placement now anyway, you might as well get the idea of doing that out of your head to begin with.
5. Adds more options for commander. There's a difference between options, and meaningful choices. As I've pointed out before, a marine is far superior a builder to a MAC in every way. Costs fewer command resources, can defend itself, has better situational awareness and response times, and thus costs the commander less in attention/time as well. If a marine can build, the only commander who builds a MAC is either a dumb one or has a dumb team that refuses to build. And don't give me that the MAC could build faster.. getting a MAC into a semi-hostile zone to build requires so much more attention that, for the commander, it's quicker/easier just to send marines even if they do build slower -- especially because they could assist each other to overcome that pretty minor deficit.
6. It's frustrating to lose your MAC and not be able to build unless you go all the way back. Uhh.. yeah. Defend it better next time, then. Remember, just because it's hard to defend now, when hit registration is bugged shouldn't color how you're seeing the overall picture.
7. Cause I liked it in NS1! So... go play NS1. Let NS2 be the far more awesome game that it was shaping up to be, hopefully one that attracts a much wider audience than NS1 ever did -- even if it means us NS1 players might have to give up a couple of the things we liked before. See my link on grognard capture again.
8. If marines can build, they have to make a tactical choice between build speed and defense. <--- This is the only actually valid point I've seen that isn't already countered by what we know of upcoming features/NS2 mindset. It's a good one. It will be somewhat addressed when we get weldable doors and start repairing structures, but it's about the best argument I"ve seen for allowing marines to build.
However, for that one argument what we lose if marines can build: 1. A focal point for alien battles. People are saying that the MACs are too much of a weak point.. that's the beauty of them. Remember, larger rooms will put the aliens at an immediate disadvantage -- this isn't apparent right now because of the hit registration. They need something to counter that to control marine expansion. The MAC is an elegant way because it gives the alien team a choice, they can try to take out the MAC and maybe manage to do it before they get killed, or they can try to take out the escort and probably (once hit registration is working) die before they succeed -- but if they succeed it's a major win. If marines can build, there's not even any point in trying to take out the MAC first, which means head on against the marine team every time, which means they'll need to be extremely buffed to survive in the new map style of NS2, which is also going to have instant teleportation to squad -- aka instant reinforcements for marines.
2. A means of intention communication between the teams: If MACs can build, seeing a MAC means "These guys are serious about over here, time to kill" while seeing a marine means "Could be just scouting. Let him think it's safe so they overcommit" If marines can build, any marine is a significant threat and needs to be dealt with immediately. Lowers the options for alien play.
3. A focal point for e-sports. Having definable focus points is part of what makes a good viewer experience. That's why when they broadcast esports of Halo or CS or what have you, they generally concentrate on specific map points.. because those are the points that make a difference. With MAC only building, those points become the MAC.. and they can be tracked throughout the map. With marine building, that focus point is gone. IF we really want NS2 to be popular we need it to get exposure. Having it be a TV-friendly game can help that in a huge way.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1791743:date=Aug 4 2010, 02:29 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 4 2010, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*wall of text*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Shouldn't even call him the Commander, all he does is directs robots all day. And if the entire game is just shooting and having a yellow box do everything for the team, might as well remove the players and place turrets on the mac.
2. Everything will revolve around having the yellow box place a mine, weld a door, having the commander do everything for team. I didn't know the Commander was the soldiers lapdog. I thought they commanded, have marines do things. An idle marine is a useless marine. And waiting for the yellow box for everything will dumb and slow down gameplay.
3. You mean more pressure on the commander, turning the game into one micromanage fest while the marines who are begging for health get slaughtered.
6. What a narrow minded comment. If there are no ways to have a comeback in a fight, you might as well just be playing halo charging at another player with an assault rifle until one of you is dead.
7.Remember. NS2. It also has NS in it. Just because it is a new game doesn't mean you need to change all the game mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1791754:date=Aug 4 2010, 01:54 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Aug 4 2010, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Shouldn't even call him the Commander, all he does is directs robots all day. And if the entire game is just shooting and having a yellow box do everything for the team, might as well remove the players and place turrets on the mac.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, try reading what I wrote. If it's bigger than your attention span can hold in one go, try it a point at a time. I didn't say MAC command becomes all of what a commander does (and if it does, you don't seem to remember that we have an option for more than one commander) I said it becomes important, and becomes an area where there needs to be more marine-commander communication/integration, not less.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Everything will revolve around having the yellow box place a mine, weld a door, having the commander do everything for team. I didn't know the Commander was the soldiers lapdog. I thought they commanded, have marines do things. An idle marine is a useless marine. And waiting for the yellow box for everything will dumb and slow down gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, try reading. You're making the assumption that the MAC will handle all support roles, even though what I wrote is the exact *opposite* of that. If it turns out that the MAC has to do all the welding etc, then yes, I'd agree there is a problem. We ain't there yet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. You mean more pressure on the commander, turning the game into one micromanage fest while the marines who are begging for health get slaughtered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps you haven't noticed, but that's what most RTS games -- at least the popular ones -- are.. micro-management sims. Now if you're saying you don't want NS2 to be popular, well, we disagree. And again, get out of the NS1 mindset and realize there can be more than one commander if your lone commander is getting overwhelmed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. What a narrow minded comment. If there are no ways to have a comeback in a fight, you might as well just be playing halo charging at another player with an assault rifle until one of you is dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Seriously? You're essentially arguing that the marines should never be unsuccessful when they try a strategy. Sometimes you build a forward base successfully. Sometimes you get pwned. Do you whine then that it's unfair because the aliens ate your newly placed CC, and you need some means to make a comeback from it? Same thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7.Remember. NS2. It also has NS in it. Just because it is a new game doesn't mean you need to change all the game mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh, I'm sorry, I was unaware we'd changed marines ranged/aliens melee, resource gathering, upgradable tech, base building, commander driven objectives and waypoints, squad organization, node defending, command chair importance, flying lerks, teleporting fades, leaping skulks, axe/pistol/main-weapon marine play.. oh wait.. we haven't. You're right, it has NS in it. In case you don't remember, that stands for natural selection. So perhaps trying to adapt to something new *before* demanding it be changed back might be in keeping with the spirit of it.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
You're adding an extra thing to rely on and you're dumbing down the game. Instead of the cleverness of the versatile marine, you get the builder class and the shooter class. That was the marine side advantage, they were well trained marines and always had unique uses given the right items were given to them. Like laying mines, building a res node, securing a point with turrets. With the buildbot you essentially chopped the value of a marine in half put him in a yellow floating box. Removing the specialty of the marine side and making them just like the aliens but with varying weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1791624:date=Aug 4 2010, 08:46 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Aug 4 2010, 08:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question: What happens when the last hive is down? Game over? No more come backs for Aliens?
Bad design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm.. with the last com chair down you can't build anything so I don't get the point your trying to make.
I liked building as a marine as you had to avoid doing it while there was danger nearby and as the Kharaa I could use their distraction as part of an ambush.
<!--quoteo(post=1791782:date=Aug 4 2010, 11:39 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Aug 4 2010, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're adding an extra thing to rely on and you're dumbing down the game. Instead of the cleverness of the versatile marine, you get the builder class and the shooter class. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Objection Your Honor, that's hearsay!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Objection sustained!
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Thank you Your Honor<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Maybe it's just me but the more "contra marine building" posts i read i get the feeling quite a few people just want a deathmatch game with NS skins... Or to make it even simpler: They want NS2 combat with buildings but none of the tasks that don't involve "shooting stuff"....
Sorry NS had been about more than "just shooting stuff" and while NS2 shouldn't be a HD version of NS1 it also shouldn't be NS2 Combat Evolved. There are certain things that made NS what it is, certain things that made it stick out compared to the bazillion of purely deathmatch mods out there, removing these things doesn't add to the game, it sucks out it's character.
Everyone is forgetting(or most of you are not acknowledging), that there will be a possible of 3 Commanders per a side(more likely 2 most of the time due to 5 Tech Point Maps).
That instantly cuts the AI Bot Micro Control workload in half if the secondary Commanders are competent. This is in regard to Public Servers that are 12-16 Players per a side.
Obviously in comp 6v6/7v7/8v8(whatever becomes the best norm), there will only be 1 Command Stationbe utilized at a time. The only time you would see a 2nd Commander in Competitive Play is when the Original Commander has to jump out and defend the Marine Start from a Skulk rush, while someone else hops in into the 2nd/3rd Command Station.
*****
That Poll is flawed, by the simple fact that there are more NS1 I CANT CHANGE MY WAYS EVER ZEALOTS on these forums.
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I say wait until the Full Tech Tree is implemented, lag is fixed, and hit regesistration is fixed; basically the Beta.
If it is not working, then change it from there. I do think there will be enough going on for the Marines on the field that you will find having to take time to stop, and build stuff... to be very boring. Remember, you get to buy your own equipment now, so that means you can Weld Doors and other stuff more freely.
You won't have to be forced to sit and wait in the base for the Commander to give you stuff anymore. You are in control now. Let the Commander focus on the RTS aspect, and help you indirectly through AoE Buffs and also with AI Bots.
People did like to command in games mainly they didn't like to command with people that didn't listen i knew thats how i was with it and i liked to command. The building point of marines was the fact that while building you needed to actually pay attention and watch your surroundings to make sure a skulk wasn't coming to kill you. now with the new ns2 building you completely dont even need to look at the res tower or anything to be able to build something it takes away from the feel of ns which was the oh god marines vs aliens in dark places. the game is called natural selection hey if you are really that bad at paying attention while multitasking well you are going to end up sitting around base protecting stuff even with the new way to build stuff and you will have even less to do because you cant build stuff. the alien commander mode just feels wrong for the game entirely the best part about going either marines or aliens was that the two were really nothing alike but now they both have commanders both cant build stuff alone and have to protect the builderbots for both teams. there is no difference between teams anymore its just do you want to be a human or an alien and do the exact same thing. not saying ns2 should be a clone of ns1 but changing key aspects of the game like having to actually think and pay attention to what was going on and making the game let me follow this yellow thing around and just make sure it doesn't die and nothing else basically. the best part about ns it had its on aspects on a game. now with ns2 it does feel like sc with cs thrown in.
Comments
Whilst I recognize that a lot hasn't been implemented yet and game play will change dramatically before release, being dependent on bots to build is an obvious on-going problem IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
building on what your saying, Charlie has played further builds then what we have access to and has admitted to also missing the aspect and tension from marines being able to build as well, why can't they (against marine building) take this into account as well, stated directly from one of the game creators fingers. It's not like he's just taking our opinions and views, but he stated in his OWN view based on his game play experience, which happens to somewhat align with us. The man is more then capable of making up his own mind, how about giving him some more credit? All while having the ability to listen and take feedback from the community, again it's a respectable trait. -- Directed to Kwil not you Snazz.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=110778" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...howtopic=110778</a>
You will see which choice is winning the votes, meaning more people want it that way, meaning more people that never played the game will find it appealing.. meaning more sales and success.
And to build on what Snazz is saying, let's say you ONLY have enough resources for an IP and you got no builder bots.. well the com drops an IP and the entire team stands there looking at it.. doing nothing because somehow magically marines forgot how to build structures after a few years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's certainly easy enough to remedy, right? First bot is free. Problem solved.
Not entirely sure how this solves anything, I would hope at some point during the game the commander chose to build some MAC's.. if not well you shouldn't even bother getting an IP at that point.
The commander has ALWAYS been the guy to just say 'go here, and do this' there was never any 'oh i feel so close to the commander, because i'm building base for him.' Sorry no. I think all commanders would agree that they would much rather send out all their marines to do something more useful than just build base, if it were possible, now it is.
Keep it as it is, let MACs be the main builders, if need be add in that marines can click their 'E' button if they feel a sense of togetherness with the commander. But definitely do not make it that marines have to be the ones to build. I can tell you in all honesty that in competitive play MACs will be the main the main builders for everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you really thought about this? I'm also coming from a comp background and I agree that its far better to have the MAC's build spawn and the far away rts / recap etc. BUT there is a huge drawback to having just the MAC's being able to build.
So you have just made this push into a critical part of the map and need to get some buildings up, the aliens come to rush you but instead of going for the 5 marines in the room they all just target the stupid floating AI unit. The aliens have just sacrificed half their team, but at the same time without killing any marine players have effectively crippled the marine push.
Can you imagine the rage and frustration this would cause ("OH FFS THE STUPID FKING AI BOT WAS KILLED" , COM: "DONT WORRY GUYS IM SENDING ANOTHER ONE JUST HANG AROUND FOR A WHILE UNTIL IT FLIES THERE")
For this reason alone the marines need to be able to build.
Apart from this, I believe that building is one of the main core aspects of NS1. You have to balance getting the building up VS staying alive. (in ns1 I can remember all those epic times where I finished the PG whilst being eaten by a skulk, dying just as it became active).
I suppose all this can be fixed when the holes in the gameplay appear during the alpha/beta, but I think a discussion like the one that's currently happening is positive for the direction of the game
Yes, I guess I wasn't very clear. What I meant is if any point in the game you've been reduced to 0 bots, you could create a single bot at no cost.
So you have just made this push into a critical part of the map and need to get some buildings up, the aliens come to rush you but instead of going for the 5 marines in the room they all just target the stupid floating AI unit. The aliens have just sacrificed half their team, but at the same time without killing any marine players have effectively crippled the marine push.
Can you imagine the rage and frustration this would cause ("OH FFS THE STUPID FKING AI BOT WAS KILLED" , COM: "DONT WORRY GUYS IM SENDING ANOTHER ONE JUST HANG AROUND FOR A WHILE UNTIL IT FLIES THERE")
For this reason alone the marines need to be able to build.
Apart from this, I believe that building is one of the main core aspects of NS1. You have to balance getting the building up VS staying alive. (in ns1 I can remember all those epic times where I finished the PG whilst being eaten by a skulk, dying just as it became active).
I suppose all this can be fixed when the holes in the game-play appear during the alpha/beta, but I think a discussion like the one that's currently happening is positive for the direction of the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the time it took for a build-bot to get to you became a playability problem perhaps one way to resolve it would be to allows bots to attach to squads and "jump" to their position similar to what they're planning on implementing for players.
Yeah, but this just seems so tacky to solve a problem that doesn't need to be here in the first place. There's innovation and then there's redundancy.
The problem is the lack of marine building. If you dislike it, then you have the choice to never build a single building, the game changes in no way what so ever for you, but for us who want to build still have NO option at all.
So far I have yet to see a single reasoning for those pro MAC's only as to WHY it actually makes the game better in anyway while I've seen countless post made for why marines building also would improve the game, and their enjoyment from it. Again... if you dislike marine building then just don't build, it's very simple. So how exactly is having a choice impacting anything game play wise for any of you against it??
but its to early do "suggest" comm and player relations at this stage of alfa.
Then you are free to desscuse it..
Before jumping in to the marine build or not i like to see what the commander as to offer in NS2 and not in its current state.
Doh i like to see that marines can build, like emergency or have em build and use the bots/npc to build on other places where there is no marines. or something.
Ah.. sorry for misreading it haha.
Just Delete the drifters, make the mac being able to build only near the CC so its help the comm but not take out the gameplay.
i really cant imagine playin NS2 like that with drifter and mac doing everything.
i know its only the alpha, so there is still hope the devs change their minds because, i really will never love an NS2 where gorge are useless and marines just wonder in the map like CS without having to build or anything.
No more come backs for Aliens?
Bad design.
Also, I don't think building slows down gameplay. In fact, it helps to solidify the aliens' role. If you let marines build, they should win. Aliens need to be constantly ambushing/stalking/harassing marines as they attempt to do so. That's what makes for the game's very intense feel. If you're a marine, you're always venturing out to build, anticipating attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>THIS</b>
The banner being waved above NS2 that says "Hey look at our game, we are a FPS - RTS hybrid!!" leads to gamers thinking there will be RTS elements when they play. Removing marine building would be removing whatever scant RTS elements there were for non-commander players. Essentially, it would be a FPS for everyone but one person and an RTS for one person.
Seriously, get rid of MACs and drifters. You would be cutting off a very important appendage from Natural Selection, period.
The ability for marines to also build does not slow down gameplay!!
why?
1) Marine time spent building accelerates tech tree and resource advancement. It allows marines more efficient utilization of marine idle time.
2) FASTER gameplay does NOT always mean BETTER gameplay. ns1 co_ maps were considerably 'faster' than ns_ maps in terms of less time spent building. did that make for better 'gameplay'?.
- How about we just make all maps 1 room so we have less time spent walking too and more time spent fighting?
<b>situation 1 -</b>
2 marines guard a MAC who is building a resource tower
time taken for resource tower / turrets etc. to build and for marines to advance to next area = MAC build time
<b>situation 2 -</b>
1 marine guard and the other helps the MAC build the resource tower
total time taken for resource tower to build and for marines to advance < MAC build time
In situation 2 - marines advance faster BUT take on more risk in doing so. There is a risk and reward tradeoff and i think that in itself is an engaging gameplay. Not allowing marines the option to build WILL produce linear and boring gameplay and <b>make playing as a marine the same as any other fps</b>. If anything i think the people advocating against marine building are the ones who want a carbon copy of other fps's they play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still say it is a bad idea(because you would have to do that Ghost Structure stuff again)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the ability for marines to help build structures does not necessarily require ghost structures. The MAC places structure via commander, and marines help build it. voila.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but people will just be lazy and start yelling at Players to build the base and stuff because they are lazy at Commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the problem is the commander and NOT the gameplay. completely invalid arguement
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And like I said, it doesn't make sense in NS1 how Marines could build a structure without a Welder, and we have a replacement for that; the MAC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nanites. If you want to pull out the realism arguement, it also doesnt make sense how a MAC can build such highly complicated buildings out of thin air in 10seconds.
My thoughts are that commanders shouldnt only have to deal with MACs but also have to connect with and rely on their fellow marines.
The banner being waved above NS2 that says "Hey look at our game, we are a FPS - RTS hybrid!!" leads to gamers thinking there will be RTS elements when they play. Removing marine building would be removing whatever scant RTS elements there were for non-commander players. Essentially, it would be a FPS for everyone but one person and an RTS for one person.
Seriously, get rid of MACs and drifters. You would be cutting off a very important appendage from Natural Selection, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree.
I played NS for years and so many times Ive had problems with players too busy trying to kill fades, aliens or a hive and they refuse to build new buildings at the base. Or go around and rebuild destroyed RT's. I personally LOVE the ingenuity of the devs to build that RTS feel into it with the MAC's. However I share others sentiments about it being an RTS for one and an FPS for the rest. I think the players should be able to get involved, even if its only on a very small scale. Personally some of my fondest memories of the games are the games where you ninja built a phase gate at a hive before phasing the whole team through with HMG's and destroy it. Or building a phase gate before a siege outside a siege before the aliens are aware. It was intense when your the only one there espcially when you need to stop kill a skulk and quickly doing it knowing their team now knows what your doing. Your hearts pumping as you complete it and you get a real buzz when you win it from building that one structure. This aspect is too good to lose.
Vice Versa, theres many games where we dropped a hive and stayed well away from it while it built due to a phase gate nearby or even in the room and when it was built you would rush the phase quickly before they could build a siege. It was intense and often didnt pay off but those games were the most enjoyable, memorable and intense and really captivate players. Removing this I think removes a massive aspect of what appealed to the player base.
My suggestions to improve the game are very similar to many already suggested.
MAC upgrade to allow it to teleport to any marine on the map, Vice Versa for Aliens to Gorge
Marines being able to build (I dont even mind if this is 25% of the speed) and/or alien commanders being able to place buildings in the vicinity of a friendly gorge.
Marines needing an upgrade to build (This could be a commander upgrade, a player upgrade at the armoury, buying of a welder or a combination of any of these). Vice versa perhaps the Gorge should be able to purchase an upgrade from one of the chambers to be able to build structures/have the commander able to place structures near the gorge (They should be a glowing colour on the minimap perhaps).
My personal (and by no means the best option) would be a combination of the above.
I would like to see the alien side being able to teleport drifters to friendly gorges (perhaps they are even stunned for 5 seconds after teleporting) and Marines should either build slower and/or require an upgrade to build structures. I believe it should be available from the start or very early. E.g. replacing the Pistol with a welder at no cost from the armoury. So those who choose not to build will have the advantage of a 2nd weapon while those who enjoy it can assist their team (repair armour, structures and build) and have a more RTS style game influence.
Whatever is done, I do think we need something to allow for those intense once a week style games where someone tries something very sneaky and it pays off. As to me those games really made NS the enjoyable game it was. Otherwise I think pubs will be a carbon copy virtually every time, giving more flexibility opens the game to more options and possibilities leading to more exciting and enjoyable games.
The banner being waved above NS2 that says "Hey look at our game, we are a FPS - RTS hybrid!!" leads to gamers thinking there will be RTS elements when they play. Removing marine building would be removing whatever scant RTS elements there were for non-commander players. Essentially, it would be a FPS for everyone but one person and an RTS for one person.
Seriously, get rid of MACs and drifters. You would be cutting off a very important appendage from Natural Selection, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you not read anything about MACs or drifters, listened to the podcasts or anything? Not only are these new additions helpful for building they're also great for team support. The MAC can attack, drop mines, use EMP blast (which i hope we find out soon what it does). The drifter can sacrifice himself and by doing so can have a flashbang effect which would temporarily blind the marines, imagine ALL the possibilities that can be done to make a game more exciting when playing with these additions added to the front lines?
Also, there is a thing called <u><b>REPLICATE</b></u>. Which when it's purchased by the commander, allows the commander to REPLICATE a structure, and drop it and it builds automatically, by itself, no need for MAC or marine. Need another turret/seige or whatever, REPLICATE, DROP, auto-builds. No need for MAC to build or even marines, lets us focus on other things.
I'm all up for marines being able to press 'E' or whatever to help build I really am, but if you completely remove the MAC as a builder it's just dumb, let the MAC be the main builder, building structures quickly, but if marines want to help out to build the structure just that much faster, then let it be so. But only allow it to where it's max building speed is when 1 MAC and 1 Marine are building (maybe even 2).
Whilst I recognize that a lot hasn't been implemented yet and game play will change dramatically before release, being dependent on bots to build is an obvious on-going problem IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's not obvious at all.
I've seen what people list as the downsides of it several times, and none of that really holds water to me, especially when we have a fuller implementation and working hitboxes.
Let's go through them, and if you can point out where I'm wrong, then we can have a discussion.
1. Lessens interaction between commander and marine. -- How? Commanders are dependant on marines to ensure the MACs stay alive. Marines are dependant on commanders to be watching them and the mac and making adjustments to the course as things develop. I only see this increasing the interactivity once we get out of the NS1 mindset and people realize they actually have to communicate more than "Go to double RT" "At double, comm, drop RTs pls."
2. Removes support role for marines who suck at shooting (and I include myself in that group) aka Game becomes only about shooting. Right now this may be the case, but there are enough things in the pipeline that I think we'll see this support role adequately covered in future even with a pure MAC building situation.
2. a) Building added tension -- That's an artificial tension, which, if you're so desirous of it, can be easily replicated as a choice for a marine.. my "face the wall and see if you can count to 30 while the MAC builds" scenario. Same results. And of course, this is still before we get things like welding doors, repairing structures, or even repairing the MAC itself, which will bring that role actually back into the game if your imagination isn't good enough otherwise.
3. Dislike escorting AI. You're not. You're escorting a commander controlled unit. If your commander leaves it to the AI to pilot, that's your commanders fault. A good commander, when he sends out a MAC/Building mission is paying attention to it, or relying on the team to let him know when something's up and he needs to get in there and take some control. (Back to that "more interaction")
4. Can't ninja PG/Siege/command centre. Yeah, well, considering there's no PG or siege cannon/comm centre with aribrary placement now anyway, you might as well get the idea of doing that out of your head to begin with.
5. Adds more options for commander. There's a difference between options, and meaningful choices. As I've pointed out before, a marine is far superior a builder to a MAC in every way. Costs fewer command resources, can defend itself, has better situational awareness and response times, and thus costs the commander less in attention/time as well. If a marine can build, the only commander who builds a MAC is either a dumb one or has a dumb team that refuses to build. And don't give me that the MAC could build faster.. getting a MAC into a semi-hostile zone to build requires so much more attention that, for the commander, it's quicker/easier just to send marines even if they do build slower -- especially because they could assist each other to overcome that pretty minor deficit.
6. It's frustrating to lose your MAC and not be able to build unless you go all the way back. Uhh.. yeah. Defend it better next time, then. Remember, just because it's hard to defend now, when hit registration is bugged shouldn't color how you're seeing the overall picture.
7. Cause I liked it in NS1! So... go play NS1. Let NS2 be the far more awesome game that it was shaping up to be, hopefully one that attracts a much wider audience than NS1 ever did -- even if it means us NS1 players might have to give up a couple of the things we liked before. See my link on grognard capture again.
8. If marines can build, they have to make a tactical choice between build speed and defense. <--- This is the only actually valid point I've seen that isn't already countered by what we know of upcoming features/NS2 mindset. It's a good one. It will be somewhat addressed when we get weldable doors and start repairing structures, but it's about the best argument I"ve seen for allowing marines to build.
However, for that one argument what we lose if marines can build:
1. A focal point for alien battles. People are saying that the MACs are too much of a weak point.. that's the beauty of them. Remember, larger rooms will put the aliens at an immediate disadvantage -- this isn't apparent right now because of the hit registration. They need something to counter that to control marine expansion. The MAC is an elegant way because it gives the alien team a choice, they can try to take out the MAC and maybe manage to do it before they get killed, or they can try to take out the escort and probably (once hit registration is working) die before they succeed -- but if they succeed it's a major win. If marines can build, there's not even any point in trying to take out the MAC first, which means head on against the marine team every time, which means they'll need to be extremely buffed to survive in the new map style of NS2, which is also going to have instant teleportation to squad -- aka instant reinforcements for marines.
2. A means of intention communication between the teams: If MACs can build, seeing a MAC means "These guys are serious about over here, time to kill" while seeing a marine means "Could be just scouting. Let him think it's safe so they overcommit" If marines can build, any marine is a significant threat and needs to be dealt with immediately. Lowers the options for alien play.
3. A focal point for e-sports. Having definable focus points is part of what makes a good viewer experience. That's why when they broadcast esports of Halo or CS or what have you, they generally concentrate on specific map points.. because those are the points that make a difference. With MAC only building, those points become the MAC.. and they can be tracked throughout the map. With marine building, that focus point is gone. IF we really want NS2 to be popular we need it to get exposure. Having it be a TV-friendly game can help that in a huge way.
1. Shouldn't even call him the Commander, all he does is directs robots all day. And if the entire game is just shooting and having a yellow box do everything for the team, might as well remove the players and place turrets on the mac.
2. Everything will revolve around having the yellow box place a mine, weld a door, having the commander do everything for team. I didn't know the Commander was the soldiers lapdog. I thought they commanded, have marines do things. An idle marine is a useless marine. And waiting for the yellow box for everything will dumb and slow down gameplay.
3. You mean more pressure on the commander, turning the game into one micromanage fest while the marines who are begging for health get slaughtered.
6. What a narrow minded comment. If there are no ways to have a comeback in a fight, you might as well just be playing halo charging at another player with an assault rifle until one of you is dead.
7.Remember. NS2. It also has NS in it. Just because it is a new game doesn't mean you need to change all the game mechanics.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Everything will revolve around having the yellow box place a mine, weld a door, having the commander do everything for team. I didn't know the Commander was the soldiers lapdog. I thought they commanded, have marines do things. An idle marine is a useless marine. And waiting for the yellow box for everything will dumb and slow down gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, try reading. You're making the assumption that the MAC will handle all support roles, even though what I wrote is the exact *opposite* of that. If it turns out that the MAC has to do all the welding etc, then yes, I'd agree there is a problem. We ain't there yet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. You mean more pressure on the commander, turning the game into one micromanage fest while the marines who are begging for health get slaughtered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps you haven't noticed, but that's what most RTS games -- at least the popular ones -- are.. micro-management sims. Now if you're saying you don't want NS2 to be popular, well, we disagree. And again, get out of the NS1 mindset and realize there can be more than one commander if your lone commander is getting overwhelmed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. What a narrow minded comment. If there are no ways to have a comeback in a fight, you might as well just be playing halo charging at another player with an assault rifle until one of you is dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Seriously? You're essentially arguing that the marines should never be unsuccessful when they try a strategy. Sometimes you build a forward base successfully. Sometimes you get pwned. Do you whine then that it's unfair because the aliens ate your newly placed CC, and you need some means to make a comeback from it? Same thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7.Remember. NS2. It also has NS in it. Just because it is a new game doesn't mean you need to change all the game mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh, I'm sorry, I was unaware we'd changed marines ranged/aliens melee, resource gathering, upgradable tech, base building, commander driven objectives and waypoints, squad organization, node defending, command chair importance, flying lerks, teleporting fades, leaping skulks, axe/pistol/main-weapon marine play.. oh wait.. we haven't. You're right, it has NS in it. In case you don't remember, that stands for natural selection. So perhaps trying to adapt to something new *before* demanding it be changed back might be in keeping with the spirit of it.
No more come backs for Aliens?
Bad design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm.. with the last com chair down you can't build anything so I don't get the point your trying to make.
I'll miss it.
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Objection Your Honor, that's hearsay!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Objection sustained!
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->Thank you Your Honor<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
</sarcasm>
Or to make it even simpler: They want NS2 combat with buildings but none of the tasks that don't involve "shooting stuff"....
Sorry NS had been about more than "just shooting stuff" and while NS2 shouldn't be a HD version of NS1 it also shouldn't be NS2 Combat Evolved.
There are certain things that made NS what it is, certain things that made it stick out compared to the bazillion of purely deathmatch mods out there, removing these things doesn't add to the game, it sucks out it's character.
That instantly cuts the AI Bot Micro Control workload in half if the secondary Commanders are competent. This is in regard to Public Servers that are 12-16 Players per a side.
Obviously in comp 6v6/7v7/8v8(whatever becomes the best norm), there will only be 1 Command Stationbe utilized at a time. The only time you would see a 2nd Commander in Competitive Play is when the Original Commander has to jump out and defend the Marine Start from a Skulk rush, while someone else hops in into the 2nd/3rd Command Station.
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That Poll is flawed, by the simple fact that there are more NS1 I CANT CHANGE MY WAYS EVER ZEALOTS on these forums.
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I say wait until the Full Tech Tree is implemented, lag is fixed, and hit regesistration is fixed; basically the Beta.
If it is not working, then change it from there. I do think there will be enough going on for the Marines on the field that you will find having to take time to stop, and build stuff... to be very boring. Remember, you get to buy your own equipment now, so that means you can Weld Doors and other stuff more freely.
You won't have to be forced to sit and wait in the base for the Commander to give you stuff anymore. You are in control now. Let the Commander focus on the RTS aspect, and help you indirectly through AoE Buffs and also with AI Bots.
`Mafia,`Mafua
(Or some retarted "Pro Mod" that always fails like in CS.)
Since that is what a lot of stubborn people want.
Let NS2 be differen't a bit.