I always thought the idea of "manually building" in ns was out of place. I mean, the marines had all this technology (phase gates, jet packs, portals etc) yet they still had to perform manual labour in order to build new things. Felt like being in stoneage.
I think building bots will fit really well in the overall game play and they should not be removed. They will add a new twist to the game. On marine side, protecting them, and on alien side, trying to hunt them down. My 2 cents.
Another solution for building forward bases without having to escort the MAC there is to give the commander an ability to call in a MAC anywhere. Should have higher cost than the normal MAC obviously.
<!--quoteo(post=1791222:date=Aug 3 2010, 08:26 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 3 2010, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Incorrect. If the grunts and the commander do not communicate, they will not be able to properly defend the bot. An undefended bot is an eaten bot, is a waste of resources and no building. 2. Incorrect. An undefended bot is an eaten bot, unless it's in safe territory.. in which case a requirement for player presence is a detriment to an exciting game. 3. True, but incorrect. It's not just an NPC, it's a commander controlled unit. 4 True and correct. However, this is a problem with your commander(s), not the system -- remember that you can have more than one commander in NS2 5. Incorrect. The support role is still present with welding of doors, repairing armor, repairing already built items, scouting, clearing DI, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I didn't say that it would remove interaction, just drastically decrease it. 2. I disagree. Having player presence required behind the lines of battle helps make the line of battle less "hard", thus giving the down team a better chance of getting out of a poor position. 3. I don't think it's unreasonable to call a unit that is not a player in a FPS/RTS a NPC, but I think that's somewhat semantics. You agreed with my point. 4. Any inherent system that increases the chance of frustration for a player is bad and hurts the on-boarding experience. Yes, a better commander will have less of an issue, but it will be harder for players to pick up commanding. 5. Fair, it doesn't "remove" the support role, but it dos drastically hurt it. I know a number of NS players who loved to play as strictly the gorge/builder, and this system would remove that gameplay.
I still strongly think this is a bad direction for NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1790890:date=Aug 3 2010, 12:13 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 3 2010, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's pretty hard to argue against allowing players to build, especially as NS1 did it and I can see some cool options with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had a pretty easy time with it, especially when you consider how dynamic MAC only construction could potentially make the early and mid game along with the amount of (much needed) depth and skill it added to the commander's role.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I guess MACs would create the "ghost" structure immediately, as in NS1. Then the MAC could build it or players could help build it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the problem with allowing MAC and Marine construction. Already there are obvious imbalances. First, even with a powergrid system in place, the commander could potentially use one MAC in his base to create all ghost structures while the marines players move out capping territory in rapid succession. With no weak NPC unit to target, the aliens only option is to engage the marines head on and if they lose that intial engagement they're screwed. If the marines lose that inital engagement they aren't actually punished for their extremely aggressive opening as they would have been if it was MAC only construction. The punishment I refer to would be the cost/investment of the multiple MAC's needed for rapid expansion (comparable to marine construction) and the high risk of losing them to an alien push.
Second, if the marines scout a Drifter headed for a tech point all they have to do, if their current plasma count allows, is thrown down a CC / res node at the destination, let a marine quickly build it for a few seconds, and the Drifter is blocked. If the marines happen to get kills in the early game they could potentially block the res of the aliens early on using this tactic.
If marines are allowed to build structures I would hope to see it as a researchable technology only available toward the end of the mid-game or late-game. It at least makes sense there because substandard commanders may be getting overwhelmed if they have to drop turrets, control a mobile siege, research, etc. In the early game there isn't really too much to do. Allowing marines to build will always trump MACs assuming the team is competent.
<!--quoteo(post=1791390:date=Aug 4 2010, 03:48 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 4 2010, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines are allowed to build structures I would hope to see it as a researchable technology only available toward the end of the mid-game or late-game. It at least makes sense there because substandard commanders may be getting overwhelmed if they have to drop turrets, control a mobile siege, research, etc. In the early game there isn't really too much to do. Allowing marines to build will always trump MACs assuming the team is competent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like the idea of classes on marines in NS2, but how about a little 'bonus-equipment' pack purchaseable after going through some tech-trees. It would contain a welder (to build) and, well I don't know - maybe 2 mines or something similiar to cover the structure. How do marines interact in NS2 with what in NS has been welderspot? If they are going to be in NS2 too, maybe the pack could contain some spare parts to fix up control panels (to steer a bridge or elevator for example)
I can't believe there are actually people here who think that building in NS was "boring" or worse. If you want to be a brainless bullet dispenser without regard for how the game works in the first place, you'd be better off playing quake or ANY OTHER FPS IN EXISTENCE. I found myself agreeing 100% with Ryo-Ohki, Lazer and the bunch. <!--quoteo(post=1790437:date=Aug 2 2010, 01:04 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Aug 2 2010, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're not a very bright player if you sip a pepsi while building (unless it is base which MACs could take care of). The whole point is that this is a vulnerable time where you need to be on alert for skulks rushing in instead of just sitting there waiting for them with your gun drawn. If you don't get this point then you shouldn't even be part of the debate. People like this tension, something that if marines can't build will be unavailable to us now. Maybe you don't care for it but clearly many if not most people do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, I don't think that people who have never really played NS have much place in this thread, because they don't know what the current system in the alpha is being compared to. If you are one of those people, take a good look: <!--quoteo(post=1790995:date=Aug 3 2010, 04:12 PM:name=MarshalTT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MarshalTT @ Aug 3 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 game play. :)
UWE made something great, indeed pretty much perfect, over so many years in NS1, and they shouldn't feel like they HAVE to change everything now in the sequel. That's wholeheartedly sad. (How much did Source change CS & DoD by the way?)
Also, it's not wrong to make a game with a bit of a learning curve (in being a good commander with more responsibilities than picking your nose.) Lord knows the billion-dollar studios don't, and I know that the community I've known can appreciate it.
<!--quoteo(post=1789840:date=Jul 31 2010, 03:52 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 31 2010, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of my most intense moments in old ns was pressing e.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited August 2010
the marine gameplay in ns1 was perfect - i don't see the need to change it drastically like what UWE have done with ns2. please return it to ns1 style! nobody likes babysitting dumb yellow robots :)
the marine gameplay in ns1 is what made ns1 for me.
I know its a sequel, but apart from a few new toys (and squad spawning!), the marine team should be exactly like they were in ns1
<!--quoteo(post=1791416:date=Aug 3 2010, 09:29 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Aug 3 2010, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the marine gameplay in ns1 was perfect - i don't see the need to change it drastically like what UWE have done with ns2. please return it to ns1 style! nobody likes babysitting dumb yellow robots :)
the marine gameplay in ns1 is what made ns1 for me.
I know its a sequel, but apart from a few new toys (and squad spawning!), the marine team should be exactly like they were in ns1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe for the most part, just don't take anything away, just add to what they already have. Doesn't make much sense that marines in NS1 can build but all of a sudden.. they forget? I mean progressively and fluff wise this seems to make no sense at all and a giant step back when they are suppose to be superior to their NS1 days not.. less competent.
Things like the grid, and welding doors shut, improved siege tanks and HA armor with dual welding and mini guns makes sense because it's just building on top of what they already had, not taking away, especially on the very basics, which is really the core of the game.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1791434:date=Aug 4 2010, 01:05 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Aug 4 2010, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->building on top of what they already had, not taking away, especially on the very basics, which is really the core of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
thats what i was trying to say but, i like the way you said it better :)
* didnt like massive build time at the start (in marine base) (please avoid) * no welder to build buildings, need welder to repair (avoid, confuses new players a lot!) * gorges can build res (i love my gorge build) * loved ninja building (please keep)
First three ======== Im happy for build bots to do the initial build phase. ;-) Yay! Great change!
How about marines who want to help build have to swap their pistol out for a welder? (Makes sense to new players, shoot only players happy, buildie players choice to be that role).
How about gorges hit 'use' on an unbuilt resnode drops a drifter directly on the resnode (already in build mode). That would make me happy.
Sneaky marine builds =============== Sneaky building (to raid a hive or relocate just as your base is about to die) needs to be something hard to do (for the player trying to ninja), yet not too time/resource expensive (for the commander, to allow a last minute base relocate in the marine base is about to go down/marines have no res left).
Could we have way for marines to *build/make* a build bot? Drop it like a medpack and have to weld it up? Or maybe you need to carry something from somewhere (using both hands).
I read the comments about not wanting to make an 'escort' role for marines, and i agree with that in every day gameplay, but maybe its something we should think about for sneaky/builder marines.
Maybe you have to *carry* (both hands, no weapon) the unpowered buildbot into a new area... hmmmm. (It couldnt be from marine start, that too far... from somewhere powered then?) No that would probably be horrid.
I think that if you can help build with a welder (from your armoury choice of weapon) and there is some way for a lone marine to 'ninja' a new build location (at great personal effort, to make it 'epic') then we'd all be happy?
thats what i was trying to say but, i like the way you said it better :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree too. NS2 doesn't need to be exactly like NS1 but if core features that made NS what it is are removed then it isn't NS.
Changing the gameplay drasticaly is dangerous, specialy if you want to build a player base from an old fan base to attract newcomers. This is a business view only.
Alien commander, mobile siege, dynamic infestation and other stuff are very good changes in theory, just like it seems it was MACs as it is now, but when the system failed to be practical and becomes a feature that can leave people to more frustration than enjoyment then it needs to rethink the idea. Thank Unknown Worlds to allow us to give our opinion about gameplay before it is feature-complete. We can sure start beta with minor complains.
This discussion is very easy to take sides on. It makes it rather easy to be very fundamental about your preferred option. I can certainly understand the nostalgic pull of keeping things very similar. Changes can often be seen as negative, especially when the full plan is not laid out. In the recent Podcast 17 interview, devmaster Flayra mentioned a replication marine comm 'spell' that would allow marines to quickly clone structures in the field. This certainly seems to fit the mid to late game time frame for a balanced expansion of marine building options.
Flayra also mentioned that alien comms would control DI growth. He said this meant multiple alien comms could then have more growth available. With the power-grid system also being 'powered' by marine comm stations, having multiple comm stations would also benefit the resiliency of a power-grid network.
The buildbots are essential to the marine teamplay because they are the cheap and instructive unit of the comm. ' They must be protected' will be a quick lesson to marines. This teaches the marines that protecting the comms' units is very important. This must been learned before expensive mobile siege tanks enter combat. The marine combat in NS2 will be very closely knit with the comm's. This will make having multiple comms in large games very useful and interesting.
Nostalgia is a powerful force. "There were never any good old days; they are today, they are tomorrow" Let's take a bold step forward for the benefit of better gameplay for the whole world.
from what ive seen you guys are adding some very interesting concepts/idea's to the formula.. but you have to remember, that your better off improving something that was solid then starting over from the beginning.. so heres what I think.
Mac's Should build Slowly, Requiring Marines to speed up the process /w Welder or whatever
Aliens should'nt have commander(Giving Aliens a top down view doesn't differ aliens much from marines).. Go back to original design, weaker buildings .. faster building times (but limit amount that can be built)
= Solution
Diversity makes a game gold, each side will always have a benefit over the other
as in the Original
The Marines were easier to use, While the Aliens were more Advanced Play
But both sides still required Team work to pull through..as in
Commander helping team mates /w defences, hp,etc
Aliens working amongst themselves with there Diverse races.
<!--quoteo(post=1791412:date=Aug 3 2010, 10:17 PM:name=poweri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (poweri @ Aug 3 2010, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I don't think that people who have never really played NS have much place in this thread, because they don't know what the current system in the alpha is being compared to. If you are one of those people, take a good look:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. I only watched the first 3 minutes, but those 3 minutes encapsulated so much of what makes NS1 great.
Sure, NS2 might not have all of what NS1 had, but at the same time, it will have many new things that will (hopefully) make it stand out, and some may even be saying, "man, I wish NS1 had 'x' feature".
I personally think we should hold all the chatter until the alpha is more playable, or the beta.
Everyone has their opinions and all of them are great, but since they have them in the game at the moment, and its the way it is... Don't change it. Once the game is playable, we can see how it works out. Then, if its bad, change it. But I'd wait until we've given them a good try to try and get rid of them.
The tension of building a structure by yourself or with a marine or two watching your back is part of the core elements of Natural Selection. Unsuspecting hive rush to possibly stave off the alien attack for a time? The crucial decision to build and be ignorant of incoming, and possibly stealthed and/or silenced, aliens or switching back and forth is something I hope is not removed from the game.
Building structures promotes teamwork and I seriously hope the MAC is strictly optional for the commander in a low player count situation.
<!--quoteo(post=1791390:date=Aug 4 2010, 02:48 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 4 2010, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a pretty easy time with it, especially when you consider how dynamic MAC only construction could potentially make the early and mid game along with the amount of (much needed) depth and skill it added to the commander's role.
This is the problem with allowing MAC and Marine construction. Already there are obvious imbalances. First, even with a powergrid system in place, the commander could potentially use one MAC in his base to create all ghost structures while the marines players move out capping territory in rapid succession. With no weak NPC unit to target, the aliens only option is to engage the marines head on and if they lose that intial engagement they're screwed. If the marines lose that inital engagement they aren't actually punished for their extremely aggressive opening as they would have been if it was MAC only construction. The punishment I refer to would be the cost/investment of the multiple MAC's needed for rapid expansion (comparable to marine construction) and the high risk of losing them to an alien push.
Second, if the marines scout a Drifter headed for a tech point all they have to do, if their current plasma count allows, is thrown down a CC / res node at the destination, let a marine quickly build it for a few seconds, and the Drifter is blocked. If the marines happen to get kills in the early game they could potentially block the res of the aliens early on using this tactic.
If marines are allowed to build structures I would hope to see it as a researchable technology only available toward the end of the mid-game or late-game. It at least makes sense there because substandard commanders may be getting overwhelmed if they have to drop turrets, control a mobile siege, research, etc. In the early game there isn't really too much to do. Allowing marines to build will always trump MACs assuming the team is competent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT
So basically the SCV unit is kinda cool but removing the players ability to build structures is retarded. You are all terrible if you think building is just pressing "e". Building a faze gate for example in a "Contested Territory" is not the same thing as building structures at base. Yes in base there is no real threat and yes any Hellen Keller could do it but thats not where it's that important to game play. Building structures isn't just pressing "e", building while in a dynamic combat situation is putting your gun down and trusting/hoping you live to see the job done. If you have 5 marines and you are trying to siege from cargo on Tanith for example, what do you think happens when 2 of the 5 marines have to build? It means that's 2 guns less that the alien team has to deal with while marines are building, it creates opportunity for aliens to make plays and pick of building marines. It also is anything but mindless! Knowing when to stop building to lay down some fire on incoming aliens is just as much of the games skill/fun dynamic. If you are in cargo on Tanith and had 5 marines standing in the room watching a SCV build siege what chance do you think aliens would have to stop that siege push? I would say none. 5 marines with some range and focus fire = death for any aliens in natural selection 1 or 2. Or is someone gonna tell me how the game isn't done yet so its not fair for me to say that a room full of marines standing and watching a SCV build + don't have to put themselves in any type of vulnerable position to "get the job done" isn't overpowered and boring. Basically I am saying if you think building structures is just + "e", not only are you probably terrible at "NS", but you will probably be terrible at "NS 2" as well and have no business posting on development issue topics.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
I was hoping that with the planned redundency between comms and noncomms on the marine side, that ground level players would be getting more tactical and strategic choices.Choosing whether to build or fight is a classic decision of sacrificing tactical position for strategic potential gain. The same goes for sneaking off to build a pg, welding teammates/structures, knifing rts among others. Of those that I mentioned, only 1 is not in question. Theoretically, this is being replaced by welding doors, and being able to purchase your own weapons but I don't think those are adequate because they are not the same high rish / high reward kind decisions. Weapon choice is done outside of the context combat and welding a door isn't as much of a threat to the hive as a pg.
It's the high risk reward kind of decisions that allow for multiple paths to victory. Besides ninja shotgun you can siege, go for lockdown, maintain a close presence and then go for siege or rush, save for jp and try to tech fast. I'm worried that the design decisions made now will make the game too linear(no ninja pgs, moving sieges/builders that are limited to certain starting points). If there's one path to victory, there's one best way to defend, one best way to attack etc. There needs to be room for strategic play between the two sides.
Btw, commanding in NS1 is all about the commanders ability to lead and the marines ability to shoot/follow orders/make good field choices. I commanded at a high competitive level and also in pubs and as an experienced commander I wouldn't change anything at all except maybe add new upgrades/features. I think adding SCV units could be a cool added feature, but I don't think removing a marines building capability is remotely a good idea. Commanding was amazingly fun in NS1 and needs nothing taken away from it.
MAC i think should be a building it self that does a area of repair so say you have one a in a room it has a 10ft repair distence it would repair anding in its feild and a upgrade for it it would also heal but that would cost alot
I'm going to go in with those saying there's no reason to not have both sides in NS2.
The MACs are great. I can see them adding a lot to the commanders arsenal of options and I'd love to see them upgradable with a few things like, say, a gun or shocking device to help aid them in combat (increased shielding etc.). I also think the idea of accompanying them as marines is cool and creates a new and interesting bit of gameplay for NS2. However, I don't see any reason to prevent marines from being able to assist in the building of structures. I loved that part of NS as well as many others.
Wouldn't it be easy to simply let the armory offer welding torch upgrades and then you have some marines who are interested in assisting in building and repairs who can get involved in that sort of thing. You could also put limited phasing back in where it costs X resources to phase in a structure to that marine who has managed to sneak past the Kharaa defenses to a perfect spot to build something.
Basically then we'd have both the MACs involved primarily in building and scouting for the commander with marine players taking on the defense and more dangerous tactical building options. Both sides are happy, and you've opened up a ton of fun options for marine players.
Right?
BTW, there are a lot of great things that come from the commander having MACs to work with. One obvious example being his ability to focus on the non combat issues that another player who wants to get back into the action would have to do in NS1. For example, rebuilding something in the marine base that is needed because of a recent alien attack or something. Sure, marines could help to speed up the process, but if they are busy having a huge battle somewhere else the MACs can get the job done and everyone is happy.
The commander really needs to be the overhead player who manages everything while the marines are the ones who make the down in the trenches decisions and do the hard things that an AI wouldn't be able to do. At least that's how I see it.
MACs are pretty cool, yes... But like someone brought up earlier, there is something missing from the game by not having marines building.
It's that tension of being defenseless while you build something and you have to keep listening and watching around you to make sure there are no aliens coming. THAT tension made building a ninja phase for example just so much more exciting.
All I can say I that I think having a group of marines having to balance speed of building vs amount of guns up is a very good game dynamic from NS1 that adds strategy, I'd have to see that be gone completely from NS2.
[EDIT: However I would like to further test the "weldbot needs to get there" dynamic. That could be interesting]
There is a similar discussion occuring over on GetSatisfaction. Check it out: <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/severely_concerned_about_the_lack_of_teamplay_being_encouraged" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...eing_encouraged</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1790870:date=Aug 3 2010, 12:57 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 3 2010, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do know what everyone wants.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Simply 'more interaction' is not what everyone wants it's only one aspect to the debate. People also have different views on what 'more interaction' means and how it's achieved.
You implied that holding down E while looking at a structure being built by a bot was the same as what I want, which demonstrates your lack of understanding.
By the way not everyone is divided into 2 distinct sides on this topic, everything may seem that black and white to you but it's not. If you have a closer read through this thread and look at the results in the poll thread you should see how diverse people's opinions and ideas are on the matter.
There shouldn't even be discussion on ghosting structures. Blind spots on building defense is a key tactical advantage and disadvantage. Leave it alone.
On other points and what truly needs to be done.
Basically all that needs to be done is that MAC build rate is extremely slow and if assisted by a marine it increases speed. You can also require marine-assisted building to only be allowed when a MAC is presently building to make the MAC more important and not completely useless. Then marines have 1 more decision before the map even starts!!! Do they want to help build base for a bit to get crucial upgrades started early? Or do they want to advance on the map and secure certain distant areas? Or do they want to slow the advance of the aliens even? This allows for altered gameplay on different maps and situations. You can also put some kind of limit so that only a certain number of marines can assist in building that structure and they could require another MAC to be building maybe? This allows for everything to be adjustable later of course. Important in development. 0-100.
These key points will make it so that the marine team can't build to secure an area in a blinding speed and it will slow their advance. Basically with an extremely slow build rate and specified number for marine-assisted building, it would make it so that an early push by aliens that epic fails doesn't immediately ruin them tactically. That way marines can't 'power build' their way to securing the whole map before the first respawn of aliens. Let's face it. Humans are slow to get the ball rolling on ANYTHING. History can tell you that. But after the first minute of gameplay. Then teamwork really sets in and is that much more crucial.
Every few seconds is crucial in the slight pauses the game combat brings though, when defending a MAC building and having a marine choice of assisting in the building (while waiting for next alien) vs. being more alert is nerve racking. Then comes in the marine commander 'scan', 'scout', or other variant. To give the marine piece of mind to continue building for a few more seconds before returning to defending. Also by having a MAC required to build, it would give the aliens an option to distract marines while another alien killed the MAC. Make the little robots cheaper as they don't look like they structurally need much to produce.
Some of the greatest moments in NS1 was when a marine was building a phase gate for reinforcements and it was basically 1v? and the marine either fought skulks off with every last bit of ammo and knife or the comm saved him or he died while finishing the phase gate. Then if marines were ready to phase or not it could be a strategic slaughter-fest for either team depending on the situation. Good times. And that is what is truly missing.
Comments
I think building bots will fit really well in the overall game play and they should not be removed. They will add a new twist to the game. On marine side, protecting them, and on alien side, trying to hunt them down. My 2 cents.
2. Incorrect. An undefended bot is an eaten bot, unless it's in safe territory.. in which case a requirement for player presence is a detriment to an exciting game.
3. True, but incorrect. It's not just an NPC, it's a commander controlled unit.
4 True and correct. However, this is a problem with your commander(s), not the system -- remember that you can have more than one commander in NS2
5. Incorrect. The support role is still present with welding of doors, repairing armor, repairing already built items, scouting, clearing DI, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I didn't say that it would remove interaction, just drastically decrease it.
2. I disagree. Having player presence required behind the lines of battle helps make the line of battle less "hard", thus giving the down team a better chance of getting out of a poor position.
3. I don't think it's unreasonable to call a unit that is not a player in a FPS/RTS a NPC, but I think that's somewhat semantics. You agreed with my point.
4. Any inherent system that increases the chance of frustration for a player is bad and hurts the on-boarding experience. Yes, a better commander will have less of an issue, but it will be harder for players to pick up commanding.
5. Fair, it doesn't "remove" the support role, but it dos drastically hurt it. I know a number of NS players who loved to play as strictly the gorge/builder, and this system would remove that gameplay.
I still strongly think this is a bad direction for NS2.
I had a pretty easy time with it, especially when you consider how dynamic MAC only construction could potentially make the early and mid game along with the amount of (much needed) depth and skill it added to the commander's role.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I guess MACs would create the "ghost" structure immediately, as in NS1. Then the MAC could build it or players could help build it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the problem with allowing MAC and Marine construction. Already there are obvious imbalances. First, even with a powergrid system in place, the commander could potentially use one MAC in his base to create all ghost structures while the marines players move out capping territory in rapid succession. With no weak NPC unit to target, the aliens only option is to engage the marines head on and if they lose that intial engagement they're screwed. If the marines lose that inital engagement they aren't actually punished for their extremely aggressive opening as they would have been if it was MAC only construction. The punishment I refer to would be the cost/investment of the multiple MAC's needed for rapid expansion (comparable to marine construction) and the high risk of losing them to an alien push.
Second, if the marines scout a Drifter headed for a tech point all they have to do, if their current plasma count allows, is thrown down a CC / res node at the destination, let a marine quickly build it for a few seconds, and the Drifter is blocked. If the marines happen to get kills in the early game they could potentially block the res of the aliens early on using this tactic.
If marines are allowed to build structures I would hope to see it as a researchable technology only available toward the end of the mid-game or late-game. It at least makes sense there because substandard commanders may be getting overwhelmed if they have to drop turrets, control a mobile siege, research, etc. In the early game there isn't really too much to do. Allowing marines to build will always trump MACs assuming the team is competent.
I don't like the idea of classes on marines in NS2, but how about a little 'bonus-equipment' pack purchaseable after going through some tech-trees. It would contain a welder (to build) and, well I don't know - maybe 2 mines or something similiar to cover the structure.
How do marines interact in NS2 with what in NS has been welderspot? If they are going to be in NS2 too, maybe the pack could contain some spare parts to fix up control panels (to steer a bridge or elevator for example)
If you want to be a brainless bullet dispenser without regard for how the game works in the first place, you'd be better off playing quake or ANY OTHER FPS IN EXISTENCE.
I found myself agreeing 100% with Ryo-Ohki, Lazer and the bunch.
<!--quoteo(post=1790437:date=Aug 2 2010, 01:04 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Aug 2 2010, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're not a very bright player if you sip a pepsi while building (unless it is base which MACs could take care of). The whole point is that this is a vulnerable time where you need to be on alert for skulks rushing in instead of just sitting there waiting for them with your gun drawn. If you don't get this point then you shouldn't even be part of the debate. People like this tension, something that if marines can't build will be unavailable to us now. Maybe you don't care for it but clearly many if not most people do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, I don't think that people who have never really played NS have much place in this thread, because they don't know what the current system in the alpha is being compared to.
If you are one of those people, take a good look:
<!--quoteo(post=1790995:date=Aug 3 2010, 04:12 PM:name=MarshalTT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MarshalTT @ Aug 3 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1790995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 game play. :)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74B5EeOSjUA&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74B5EeOSjUA...feature=related</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE made something great, indeed pretty much perfect, over so many years in NS1, and they shouldn't feel like they HAVE to change everything now in the sequel. That's wholeheartedly sad.
(How much did Source change CS & DoD by the way?)
Also, it's not wrong to make a game with a bit of a learning curve (in being a good commander with more responsibilities than picking your nose.) Lord knows the billion-dollar studios don't, and I know that the community I've known can appreciate it.
<!--quoteo(post=1789840:date=Jul 31 2010, 03:52 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 31 2010, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of my most intense moments in old ns was pressing e.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
please return it to ns1 style! nobody likes babysitting dumb yellow robots :)
the marine gameplay in ns1 is what made ns1 for me.
I know its a sequel, but apart from a few new toys (and squad spawning!), the marine team should be exactly like they were in ns1
please return it to ns1 style! nobody likes babysitting dumb yellow robots :)
the marine gameplay in ns1 is what made ns1 for me.
I know its a sequel, but apart from a few new toys (and squad spawning!), the marine team should be exactly like they were in ns1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe for the most part, just don't take anything away, just add to what they already have. Doesn't make much sense that marines in NS1 can build but all of a sudden.. they forget? I mean progressively and fluff wise this seems to make no sense at all and a giant step back when they are suppose to be superior to their NS1 days not.. less competent.
Things like the grid, and welding doors shut, improved siege tanks and HA armor with dual welding and mini guns makes sense because it's just building on top of what they already had, not taking away, especially on the very basics, which is really the core of the game.
+1
thats what i was trying to say but, i like the way you said it better :)
* didnt like massive build time at the start (in marine base) (please avoid)
* no welder to build buildings, need welder to repair (avoid, confuses new players a lot!)
* gorges can build res (i love my gorge build)
* loved ninja building (please keep)
First three
========
Im happy for build bots to do the initial build phase. ;-) Yay! Great change!
How about marines who want to help build have to swap their pistol out for a welder? (Makes sense to new players, shoot only players happy, buildie players choice to be that role).
How about gorges hit 'use' on an unbuilt resnode drops a drifter directly on the resnode (already in build mode). That would make me happy.
Sneaky marine builds
===============
Sneaky building (to raid a hive or relocate just as your base is about to die) needs to be something hard to do (for the player trying to ninja), yet not too time/resource expensive (for the commander, to allow a last minute base relocate in the marine base is about to go down/marines have no res left).
Could we have way for marines to *build/make* a build bot? Drop it like a medpack and have to weld it up? Or maybe you need to carry something from somewhere (using both hands).
I read the comments about not wanting to make an 'escort' role for marines, and i agree with that in every day gameplay, but maybe its something we should think about for sneaky/builder marines.
Maybe you have to *carry* (both hands, no weapon) the unpowered buildbot into a new area... hmmmm. (It couldnt be from marine start, that too far... from somewhere powered then?) No that would probably be horrid.
I think that if you can help build with a welder (from your armoury choice of weapon) and there is some way for a lone marine to 'ninja' a new build location (at great personal effort, to make it 'epic') then we'd all be happy?
thats what i was trying to say but, i like the way you said it better :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree too. NS2 doesn't need to be exactly like NS1 but if core features that made NS what it is are removed then it isn't NS.
Changing the gameplay drasticaly is dangerous, specialy if you want to build a player base from an old fan base to attract newcomers. This is a business view only.
Alien commander, mobile siege, dynamic infestation and other stuff are very good changes in theory, just like it seems it was MACs as it is now, but when the system failed to be practical and becomes a feature that can leave people to more frustration than enjoyment then it needs to rethink the idea. Thank Unknown Worlds to allow us to give our opinion about gameplay before it is feature-complete. We can sure start beta with minor complains.
Flayra also mentioned that alien comms would control DI growth. He said this meant multiple alien comms could then have more growth available. With the power-grid system also being 'powered' by marine comm stations, having multiple comm stations would also benefit the resiliency of a power-grid network.
The buildbots are essential to the marine teamplay because they are the cheap and instructive unit of the comm. ' They must be protected' will be a quick lesson to marines. This teaches the marines that protecting the comms' units is very important. This must been learned before expensive mobile siege tanks enter combat. The marine combat in NS2 will be very closely knit with the comm's. This will make having multiple comms in large games very useful and interesting.
Nostalgia is a powerful force. "There were never any good old days; they are today, they are tomorrow"
Let's take a bold step forward for the benefit of better gameplay for the whole world.
from what ive seen you guys are adding some very interesting concepts/idea's to the formula.. but you have to remember, that your better off improving something that was solid
then starting over from the beginning.. so heres what I think.
Mac's Should build Slowly, Requiring Marines to speed up the process /w Welder or whatever
Aliens should'nt have commander(Giving Aliens a top down view doesn't differ aliens much from marines).. Go back to original design, weaker buildings .. faster building times (but limit amount that can be built)
= Solution
Diversity makes a game gold, each side will always have a benefit over the other
as in the Original
The Marines were easier to use, While the Aliens were more Advanced Play
But both sides still required Team work to pull through..as in
Commander helping team mates /w defences, hp,etc
Aliens working amongst themselves with there Diverse races.
If you are one of those people, take a good look:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. I only watched the first 3 minutes, but those 3 minutes encapsulated so much of what makes NS1 great.
Sure, NS2 might not have all of what NS1 had, but at the same time, it will have many new things that will (hopefully) make it stand out, and some may even be saying, "man, I wish NS1 had 'x' feature".
Everyone has their opinions and all of them are great, but since they have them in the game at the moment, and its the way it is... Don't change it. Once the game is playable, we can see how it works out. Then, if its bad, change it. But I'd wait until we've given them a good try to try and get rid of them.
Building structures promotes teamwork and I seriously hope the MAC is strictly optional for the commander in a low player count situation.
This is the problem with allowing MAC and Marine construction. Already there are obvious imbalances. First, even with a powergrid system in place, the commander could potentially use one MAC in his base to create all ghost structures while the marines players move out capping territory in rapid succession. With no weak NPC unit to target, the aliens only option is to engage the marines head on and if they lose that intial engagement they're screwed. If the marines lose that inital engagement they aren't actually punished for their extremely aggressive opening as they would have been if it was MAC only construction. The punishment I refer to would be the cost/investment of the multiple MAC's needed for rapid expansion (comparable to marine construction) and the high risk of losing them to an alien push.
Second, if the marines scout a Drifter headed for a tech point all they have to do, if their current plasma count allows, is thrown down a CC / res node at the destination, let a marine quickly build it for a few seconds, and the Drifter is blocked. If the marines happen to get kills in the early game they could potentially block the res of the aliens early on using this tactic.
If marines are allowed to build structures I would hope to see it as a researchable technology only available toward the end of the mid-game or late-game. It at least makes sense there because substandard commanders may be getting overwhelmed if they have to drop turrets, control a mobile siege, research, etc. In the early game there isn't really too much to do. Allowing marines to build will always trump MACs assuming the team is competent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
It's the high risk reward kind of decisions that allow for multiple paths to victory. Besides ninja shotgun you can siege, go for lockdown, maintain a close presence and then go for siege or rush, save for jp and try to tech fast. I'm worried that the design decisions made now will make the game too linear(no ninja pgs, moving sieges/builders that are limited to certain starting points). If there's one path to victory, there's one best way to defend, one best way to attack etc. There needs to be room for strategic play between the two sides.
I'm going to go in with those saying there's no reason to not have both sides in NS2.
The MACs are great. I can see them adding a lot to the commanders arsenal of options and I'd love to see them upgradable with a few things like, say, a gun or shocking device to help aid them in combat (increased shielding etc.). I also think the idea of accompanying them as marines is cool and creates a new and interesting bit of gameplay for NS2. However, I don't see any reason to prevent marines from being able to assist in the building of structures. I loved that part of NS as well as many others.
Wouldn't it be easy to simply let the armory offer welding torch upgrades and then you have some marines who are interested in assisting in building and repairs who can get involved in that sort of thing. You could also put limited phasing back in where it costs X resources to phase in a structure to that marine who has managed to sneak past the Kharaa defenses to a perfect spot to build something.
Basically then we'd have both the MACs involved primarily in building and scouting for the commander with marine players taking on the defense and more dangerous tactical building options. Both sides are happy, and you've opened up a ton of fun options for marine players.
Right?
BTW, there are a lot of great things that come from the commander having MACs to work with. One obvious example being his ability to focus on the non combat issues that another player who wants to get back into the action would have to do in NS1. For example, rebuilding something in the marine base that is needed because of a recent alien attack or something. Sure, marines could help to speed up the process, but if they are busy having a huge battle somewhere else the MACs can get the job done and everyone is happy.
The commander really needs to be the overhead player who manages everything while the marines are the ones who make the down in the trenches decisions and do the hard things that an AI wouldn't be able to do. At least that's how I see it.
It's that tension of being defenseless while you build something and you have to keep listening and watching around you to make sure there are no aliens coming. THAT tension made building a ninja phase for example just so much more exciting.
Just my 2 cents.
[EDIT: However I would like to further test the "weldbot needs to get there" dynamic. That could be interesting]
Wrong. Simply 'more interaction' is not what everyone wants it's only one aspect to the debate. People also have different views on what 'more interaction' means and how it's achieved.
You implied that holding down E while looking at a structure being built by a bot was the same as what I want, which demonstrates your lack of understanding.
By the way not everyone is divided into 2 distinct sides on this topic, everything may seem that black and white to you but it's not. If you have a closer read through this thread and look at the results in the poll thread you should see how diverse people's opinions and ideas are on the matter.
On other points and what truly needs to be done.
Basically all that needs to be done is that MAC build rate is extremely slow and if assisted by a marine it increases speed. You can also require marine-assisted building to only be allowed when a MAC is presently building to make the MAC more important and not completely useless. Then marines have 1 more decision before the map even starts!!! Do they want to help build base for a bit to get crucial upgrades started early? Or do they want to advance on the map and secure certain distant areas? Or do they want to slow the advance of the aliens even? This allows for altered gameplay on different maps and situations. You can also put some kind of limit so that only a certain number of marines can assist in building that structure and they could require another MAC to be building maybe? This allows for everything to be adjustable later of course. Important in development. 0-100.
These key points will make it so that the marine team can't build to secure an area in a blinding speed and it will slow their advance. Basically with an extremely slow build rate and specified number for marine-assisted building, it would make it so that an early push by aliens that epic fails doesn't immediately ruin them tactically. That way marines can't 'power build' their way to securing the whole map before the first respawn of aliens. Let's face it. Humans are slow to get the ball rolling on ANYTHING. History can tell you that. But after the first minute of gameplay. Then teamwork really sets in and is that much more crucial.
Every few seconds is crucial in the slight pauses the game combat brings though, when defending a MAC building and having a marine choice of assisting in the building (while waiting for next alien) vs. being more alert is nerve racking. Then comes in the marine commander 'scan', 'scout', or other variant. To give the marine piece of mind to continue building for a few more seconds before returning to defending. Also by having a MAC required to build, it would give the aliens an option to distract marines while another alien killed the MAC. Make the little robots cheaper as they don't look like they structurally need much to produce.
Some of the greatest moments in NS1 was when a marine was building a phase gate for reinforcements and it was basically 1v? and the marine either fought skulks off with every last bit of ammo and knife or the comm saved him or he died while finishing the phase gate. Then if marines were ready to phase or not it could be a strategic slaughter-fest for either team depending on the situation. Good times. And that is what is truly missing.