When I first heard of MACs I thought the whole point was for the comm to not be completely incapacitated if the marines weren't following orders, which I wholeheartedly approve of. Not that they would replace marines entirely, at least as far as building goes.
Also this probably goes without saying, but Aliens shouldn't be able to build stuff at all in the interest of asymmetry, not even Gorges IMO. So the alien comm is less a leader figure and more a sixth species that is in charge of building stuff. That way it makes more sense to have multiple of them as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're missing the point, Revi.
The fun part isn't hitting 'e'. The fun part is situating yourself in a position where you know you're vulnerable -- generally facing directly toward a structure and not out toward where you can shoot oncoming aliens -- yet doing it anyway because there is a reward for succeeding.
It's not at all the same thing waiting for the MAC to build, because there you're not setting yourself in a vulnerable position, if anything, you're lessening you're vulnerability because you're not moving, and you're actively watching for enemy opposition to come along.
It's not the building, per se, that's fun, it's the additional risk of knowingly being in a bad position should an alien attack and undertaking that risk for the additional reward of getting the building done to help your team. Take out the risk part, (which is what happens when you're defending the MAC) and the reward isn't as sweet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I first heard of MACs I thought the whole point was for the comm to not be completely incapacitated if the marines weren't following orders, which I wholeheartedly approve of. Not that they would replace marines entirely, at least as far as building goes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree! i don't like to miss building PGs or s.th. else in a corner of the hive room without being discovered. I think this feeling isn't as good or even possible, if you have to carry a MAC to start building. MACs should be able to build, but also marines should start and end a building (perhaps slower, if u like to encourage MACs)
Marines building I don't really care for. It always caused confusion among my friends who were learning the game. Personally I think guarding/escorting a bot is really fun.
That being said, Seige bases were hugely important to NS1, They added a whole nother tactic and gameplay element. I do hope they are still a viable option by the time we hit v1.0
<!--quoteo(post=1791118:date=Aug 3 2010, 11:52 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 3 2010, 11:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also this probably goes without saying, but Aliens shouldn't be able to build stuff at all in the interest of asymmetry, not even Gorges IMO. So the alien comm is less a leader figure and more a sixth species that is in charge of building stuff. That way it makes more sense to have multiple of them as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh, I actually came to the exact opposite conclusion. I was thinking that if we remove the MACs from being the pivotal builder for the Marines then shouldn't the Gorge, who was in NS1 the pivotal Alien builder, also be able to help build?
However, I kinda get what you're saying about how the Alien Commander can act as a more situational job where you simply drop the buildings or pick a tech, then move on.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, NS2 is a shooter in which the commander can build buildings, and your just a grunt who's only good for shootn bullits. that's boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about allowing marines to build without a MAC?
The MAC feature remains and will be Comm Controlled, however the marines, which are player controlled, have the option of helping the commander build structures. This way you can have the NS2 element and the optional NS1 element. The benefit is that a marine building a structure is free, but slower than a MAC building the structure. A marine building something should be just over 1/3 the speed of a MAC's build speed. That way you can employ relocation strategies without the need for a MAC and/or spending of additional resources/metal, etc. The Comm therefore doesn't have to rely entirely on either.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited August 2010
This is how I always envisioned the function MAC:
1) The comm places 'ghost' structures like in NS1. A middle ground to test would be only MACs can build ghost structures, then everyone can build.
2) Marines can build, albeit significantly slower than a MAC, a welder might be needed (as determined by play testing)
3) The MAC should be viewed as a vital support tool, rather than the most important unit in the game marines have to defend. Marines should feel like "hey comm get a MAC over here!" to help them out, rather than being completely reliant on it. Marines should WANT to defend the MAC, since it's their welding/support/building buddy, instead of the mandatory work bot from the comm that has to do everything. It should mimic the warm n' fuzzy relationship aliens have with the gorge.
4) There is a limit of 3 MACs total, one for each command station/commander that comes online. This is better than building unlimited amounts of them, as it makes each one more important.
It would also make it less frustrating for marines since MACs are relatively weak and would be the first target for the aliens since the entire team would have to rely on them to build. Assuming one gets destroyed, it sets the entire game back a minute or so till another MAC gets sent from base. I guess the main idea is to change the MACs role from "most important unit in the game" into "a very useful allly, but not the end of the world if its destroyed".
Again, a lot of the finer details will need play tested regardless to see which one fits the best. This method also creates questions on the role of the gorge and alien commander on the other side, in regards to building structures.
Couldn't agree more with OP, having a robot builder doesn't really feel like NS to me. And it kinda takes the feeling away from doing some crazy strategy when the commander is doing all the work and the marines is just defending, building + defending is where the real fun is.
macs should be only available trough an upgrade. or a second command center, the second command center does nothing but control macs. so if players get addicted to the front, commander still can keep expanding and welding.
it was called WELDbot not BUILDbot, so its not meant to be in game from start on.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1791161:date=Aug 3 2010, 09:32 PM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prefix @ Aug 3 2010, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having both will be to confusing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Howso... Marines building, if implemented by buying a tool from the armory, has no impact on the commander building. It only aids the team in getting buildings online faster. Nothing confusing about that...
1. commander van use MAC's to put down buildings and build/repair them 2. a marine who has bought said tool, can do his thing when the MAC is busy/destroyed/not in the area (repairs for instance)
I don't see anything confusing about that. If noone buys the tool, the game does not change much other then being dependent on the MAC's only...
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1791169:date=Aug 3 2010, 08:36 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 3 2010, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Howso... Marines building, if implemented by buying a tool from the armory, has no impact on the commander building. It only aids the team in getting buildings online faster. Nothing confusing about that...
1. commander van use MAC's to put down buildings and build/repair them 2. a marine who has bought said tool, can do his thing when the MAC is busy/destroyed/not in the area (repairs for instance)
I don't see anything confusing about that. If noone buys the tool, the game does not change much other then being dependent on the MAC's only...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a new player to understand that both MACs and marines can build but only one or the other can do it at a certain speed or create the ghost will be confusing imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1791117:date=Aug 3 2010, 07:52 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 3 2010, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I first heard of MACs I thought the whole point was for the comm to not be completely incapacitated if the marines weren't following orders, which I wholeheartedly approve of. Not that they would replace marines entirely, at least as far as building goes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree. I would very much love to see marines back as builders - even if they're awfully slow and can't shoot while building.
How about giving building marines a penalty by increasing the time it takes to put switch their weapons? That way everybody will still rather let the MAC build when available.
<!--quoteo(post=1789488:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:03 PM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're calling this a bad change without seeing the entire game, it's far too early to suggest that they should remove, change or edit things for an alpha test based on speculation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not too early to look at a mechanic like this and claim it's bad. As a game designer myself I have pretty strong opinions that using NPCs to build structures will severely hurt the gameplay of NS2.
Without going into too much detail on any one, here are my reasons: 1. It will lead to less interaction between the grunts and the commander. 2. It removes the requirement of player presence for construction, which will alter the ebb and flow of "territory control" in a negative way 3. It's extremely difficult for a NPC to possibly follow the same "optimal path" through a level that a player could. 4. NPCs will likely die to stupid reasons when the commander is distracted, causing frustration. 5. It removes the "support" role from the game, which many less combat oriented/skilled players loved as a way to still contribute.
I would strongly, strongly suggest that this mechanic be removed from the game.
yep plz use mac and little alien thingy only for construction in a certain radius of the CC so its just to help the commander to build IN his base. RT , Siege , Phase Gate should be handled by marines. for RolePlay u can say it has some batte...ry autofilled by the CC by electric field or whatever so it cant go too far.
Btw im also for destroying alien thingy so gorge take the power again. they kinda are useless for me now, but that another point that u'll have to decide if its not already set in stones. Exept if gorge are given something more (liek really big...) i wont be playin the gorgie in NS games ;/ find it really boring and useless. Where are the teamplay in them now, seems that u did it so newbie CS player would like to spam their res on hydras and make a fortress like playin lego woohoo :s
well i would say keep MACs and all, just give the MAC more use than repair and building, liek someone said give it a flametrhower to destroy the infestation on the way, etc, even we could put a building to give upgrade to the mac, which could make it more awesome ( like life upgrade, repair/building rate upgrade etc )
but i do agree i would want to build with the MAC mean if you escort a MAC to build something you could build with it, and when there a threat you let the MAC doing the job while you defend the MAC, and while MAC are busy elsewhere people would still be able to build in base or somewhere else ( i do believe there is a limited MAC number in the game i suppose, but i dont know since i cant play :( )
OR a second idea for let marine build : the only way a marine could is when he got the welder ( its would now logical i believe ) but a marine builder will be slower than a MAC so its would still keep the needing of MAC to build stuff.
was just some of my idea and sorry for bad english, its not my primary
Hrm, usually don't have anything to say, but this is a very interesting discussion. So please forgive this as a first post. And also, I have to go out and get the month's groceries, so I was only able to read half the posts so my apologies if I'm not adding anything new. But here are my thoughts, take them as you will. This is sort of my "I wish" system, implementing it within the game might be too complex... but maybe not.
<u><b>On building:</b></u> Larger/More significant buildings require three phases for building. Materials deployment, a physical phase and a programming phase. Smaller buildings only require two phases. Physical phase and a programming phase. Buildings have different percentages of physical/programming based on their function. All large buildings still require the commander to place them. (MAC required, see materials deployment below) All small buildings require the access tool to place. (see access tool below)
Materials deployment is the transport of materials for building, on smaller buildings (e.g. turrets) the materials can be phased with the commander placing it. With larger buildings, there is too much material to phase (or things like the power source can't be phased?) and so the MAC must physically transport the materials. No materials would be initially phased for larger buildings (because then you'd have to defend the MAC -and- the placement point until it got there).
MAC's excel at physical construction, they do poorly with programming. (MAC's can carry heavy tools like a welder) E.g. A MAC builds physically at full rate, it does programming at half the rate.
Marines excel at programming, they do poorly at the physical construction. (Humans can input the environment variables quickly) E.g. A marine does programming at full rate and builds physically at half the rate. Access Tool: Cheap or medium purchase and replaces/takes up a gun slot (for balance, otherwise it just becomes superfluous, or alternatively, limit purchase to one or two; the signals interfere with each other?). Repairs buildings at slow rate. Can repair armor at a slow rate.
A MAC and marines can work together on a building.
<b>To give examples, Turrets:</b> Percent Physical: 30% (It's a gun on a swivel stick) Percent Programming: 70% (It has to shoot the aliens and not your team mates)
This means turrets can be quickly deployed by a commander/marine combo. Or more slowly by a commander/Mac combo. A commander/MAC/Marine combo would be the fastest deployment.
<b>Resource collectors:</b> MAC needs to place materials initially, but is not required after that. Percent Physical: 80% (It's complex, yep) Programming: 20% (Munch this spot)
This means a RC can be quickly deployed by a commander/MAC combo. More slowly be a commander/Marine combo (after initial placement). And fastest deployment by the triple combo.
<b>Extras: </b> Marines can ping/place a beacon requesting a building from the commander (like a build menu, but you drop a beacon instead of an actual building).
<b>Summary:</b> This to me is the "have your cake and eat it" scenario. It means the commander can still function without help, but there's a lot of opportunity to be a support class. If you have a team where one (or two) are acting the engineer and they coordinate with the commander, they're going to act very efficiently. Or the engineers can choose to support their front line/defenses. Basically, more teamwork opportunities (whole point of NS) and the commander is even less isolated from his team (which was the point of the MAC, I believe).
<u><b>On sealing Doors:</b></u> Doors have two levels of "being sealed".
<b>Level 1 Seal (Programming seal - short time period to lock, medium to unlock):</b> Can be done by a Marine with an access tool (from building section) quickly. Can be done by a MAC, but more slowly.
Can be removed by a gorge (gunk it until it shorts out and opens) Can be removed, but much more slowly, by the infestation/creep.
Can be re-sealed if opened by the gorge, cannot if opened by the infestation/creep.
<b>Level 2 Seal (Welding seal - long period to lock, medium period to unlock):</b> Does not require that the Level 1 seal be in place. Door being opened while in the process of sealing it, causes a percentage to be undone.
Cannot be done by a Marine, even with the access tool. Can only be done by the MAC, takes a long while.
Can only be removed (or pre-emptively made impossible) by an Onus (smashing it open, basically).
Cannot be resealed, door is permanently open.
<b>Summary:</b> This would probably be damned difficult to implement, but I would love it. The arrangement is basically my thoughts on the balance, giving the Marines a bit of an edge in the beginning if it's used effectively, but making it far more difficult to do a harder seal. The edge being given to the aliens in later game. My thoughts are that it would make doors another strategic element in maps designed for such.
You guys forget of one fact, if you don't go with the MAC and protect it the aliens can destroy it and the resources used to make it at first time are lost. Of course you need marines protecting it, and is the same with the aliens. No protection means no building. Like in NS1 when you sent 1 marine to build and is pawned by 2 or 3 skulks, even 1.
I like the idea of having MACs only to build, and the players protect it. It took the same time as if you are building it but you can protect it better.
On the door sealing, I like the 2 levels, but should be like a normal lock door button that can be easily bypassed by aliens (infestation power down, acid?) and the welded door that needs an Onos to smash it down.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
I kind of like the concept of the MAC being the intended primary builder, with speed advantages, while the marines can serve as a backup if they are really far away from base or if the mac gets dropped quickly. This sort of compromise gets to keep spirit of the MAC system but with the training-wheels of the original build system.
If the devs are on the fence at the moment, consider trying it out with MAC first and see how that goes. Alpha testers haven't seen the game come together yet, and who knows maybe the MAC make sense when things fill out. The nice thing about the dual building is that it is a safe fallback and isn't too different.
Seeing that there's already 16 pages I doubt my opinion will be taken in consideration but you never know.
The thing with marine that can build is that they are players and they can defend them self based on their skills. A noob would not survive very long but a skilled veteran might. So why not add the ability to the macs to defend themselves and why not make them upgradeable to make them stronger but not in a way that all macs get stronger just one mac. Also this process might be done by marines so they have a role in the training of a super mac.
Please tell me if you like the idea and don't hesitate to comment on it :)
<!--quoteo(post=1791179:date=Aug 3 2010, 01:53 PM:name=Brackhar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brackhar @ Aug 3 2010, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not too early to look at a mechanic like this and claim it's bad. As a game designer myself I have pretty strong opinions that using NPCs to build structures will severely hurt the gameplay of NS2.
Without going into too much detail on any one, here are my reasons: 1. It will lead to less interaction between the grunts and the commander. 2. It removes the requirement of player presence for construction, which will alter the ebb and flow of "territory control" in a negative way 3. It's extremely difficult for a NPC to possibly follow the same "optimal path" through a level that a player could. 4. NPCs will likely die to stupid reasons when the commander is distracted, causing frustration. 5. It removes the "support" role from the game, which many less combat oriented/skilled players loved as a way to still contribute.
I would strongly, strongly suggest that this mechanic be removed from the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Incorrect. If the grunts and the commander do not communicate, they will not be able to properly defend the bot. An undefended bot is an eaten bot, is a waste of resources and no building. 2. Incorrect. An undefended bot is an eaten bot, unless it's in safe territory.. in which case a requirement for player presence is a detriment to an exciting game. 3. True, but incorrect. It's not just an NPC, it's a commander controlled unit. 4 True and correct. However, this is a problem with your commander(s), not the system -- remember that you can have more than one commander in NS2 5. Incorrect. The support role is still present with welding of doors, repairing armor, repairing already built items, scouting, clearing DI, etc.
I'd rather see it go back to how the original was, one of the best parts of playing the original was having to defend your teammates, and knowing when the time was right to let your guard down to build a key building.
However building within the base is a bit less fun, perhaps the MAC could be restricted to building within the spawn areas...
My main gripe for using the MAC is it will be extremely difficult to ninja a hive and build a phase gate with a loud mac that does not know how to build with stealth listening for nearby enemies. I like the idea of the MAC, maybe just make them able to build a structure in a 1/4 the time it takes a marine.
MACs are fine, as long as marines can still sneak somewhere and get a PG up (or its equivalent in NS2) without them. Then let MACs use the PG, problem solved. ;)
I'd imagine being a very frustrated commander if I lost some automated bot due to some stupid AI reason, etc. and my strategy was ruined because of it.
I'll add my own small voice to the confusion as well. I would very much like to try the full game with only MACs allowed to build. I've read a lot of criticisms; many aren't convincing to me, but some are troublesome. Like pathing issues. And how the MAC reacts when under attack, if the comm is elsewhere. I can imagine the frustrations of a squad of marines getting chewed to bits while the MAC floats along to its waypoint, following its first order. So maybe it could automatically stop when it spots an alien, or maybe any marine can 'use' it and have it follow close by when troubles begin, after which the comm can issue further orders. Our little alpha suggests that MAC will get some upgrades, too, which means that perhaps the MACs far from the front lines won't have to be babysat; if it can be programmed to repair the armor of nearby marines, then damn, I'd gladly die for my robot buddy.
Again: can we just wait until after we try it when the game is more complete? I'm still angry that the electric sidearm got axed two seconds after it was revealed.
Maybe have it so marines can build but have them build half the speed or a third of a speed of the mac? That way it encourages you to bring macs yet allows for faster expansion and not having to wait if you have 2 or 3 marines on the front lines.
<!--quoteo(post=1789716:date=Jul 30 2010, 03:08 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 30 2010, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see what you are saying with the choke points, but I fee like thats all the game will become. Escorting around MACs. Just allow players to build at a much decreased rate. It gives incentives to make sure the bot gets there but doesn't kill 4 mins or your life if the aliens kill your builder. If I am an alien, I am not going to try to kill the marines first, I am going to kill the slow and dumb MAC. With leap its going to be a lot easier to get closer faster and tear that thing down before anyone can stop me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is my favorite solution.
Extremely simple to understand, makes MAC's primary targets, but doesn't halt marine progress completely when they're destroyed.
<!--quoteo(post=1791242:date=Aug 3 2010, 10:58 PM:name=olisis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (olisis @ Aug 3 2010, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is my favorite solution.
Extremely simple to understand, makes MAC's primary targets, but doesn't halt marine progress completely when they're destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe there should be a bigger group of ideas done with this rather just just MACs and marine building abilities-
I think it should be done with -
MACs- build all structure types at fast speed
Marines - build only basic structures at half speed and can purchase special secondary item (like a power drill or such) that let's them build at full speed.
The idea of marines creeped out while building a resource node too far out for a MAC really is just too much of an identity of NS to leave out. If it's too OP make it slower and slower.... the slower the creepier so I won't mind.
Comments
The fun part isn't hitting 'e'. The fun part is situating yourself in a position where you know you're vulnerable -- generally facing directly toward a structure and not out toward where you can shoot oncoming aliens -- yet doing it anyway because there is a reward for succeeding.
It's not at all the same thing waiting for the MAC to build, because there you're not setting yourself in a vulnerable position, if anything, you're lessening you're vulnerability because you're not moving, and you're actively watching for enemy opposition to come along.
It's not the building, per se, that's fun, it's the additional risk of knowingly being in a bad position should an alien attack and undertaking that risk for the additional reward of getting the building done to help your team. Take out the risk part, (which is what happens when you're defending the MAC) and the reward isn't as sweet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I first heard of MACs I thought the whole point was for the comm to not be completely incapacitated if the marines weren't following orders, which I wholeheartedly approve of. Not that they would replace marines entirely, at least as far as building goes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree!
i don't like to miss building PGs or s.th. else in a corner of the hive room without being discovered. I think this feeling isn't as good or even possible, if you have to carry a MAC to start building.
MACs should be able to build, but also marines should start and end a building (perhaps slower, if u like to encourage MACs)
That being said, Seige bases were hugely important to NS1, They added a whole nother tactic and gameplay element. I do hope they are still a viable option by the time we hit v1.0
Huh, I actually came to the exact opposite conclusion. I was thinking that if we remove the MACs from being the pivotal builder for the Marines then shouldn't the Gorge, who was in NS1 the pivotal Alien builder, also be able to help build?
However, I kinda get what you're saying about how the Alien Commander can act as a more situational job where you simply drop the buildings or pick a tech, then move on.
How about allowing marines to build without a MAC?
The MAC feature remains and will be Comm Controlled, however the marines, which are player controlled, have the option of helping the commander build structures. This way you can have the NS2 element and the optional NS1 element. The benefit is that a marine building a structure is free, but slower than a MAC building the structure. A marine building something should be just over 1/3 the speed of a MAC's build speed. That way you can employ relocation strategies without the need for a MAC and/or spending of additional resources/metal, etc. The Comm therefore doesn't have to rely entirely on either.
1) The comm places 'ghost' structures like in NS1. A middle ground to test would be only MACs can build ghost structures, then everyone can build.
2) Marines can build, albeit significantly slower than a MAC, a welder might be needed (as determined by play testing)
3) The MAC should be viewed as a vital support tool, rather than the most important unit in the game marines have to defend. Marines should feel like "hey comm get a MAC over here!" to help them out, rather than being completely reliant on it. Marines should WANT to defend the MAC, since it's their welding/support/building buddy, instead of the mandatory work bot from the comm that has to do everything. It should mimic the warm n' fuzzy relationship aliens have with the gorge.
4) There is a limit of 3 MACs total, one for each command station/commander that comes online. This is better than building unlimited amounts of them, as it makes each one more important.
It would also make it less frustrating for marines since MACs are relatively weak and would be the first target for the aliens since the entire team would have to rely on them to build. Assuming one gets destroyed, it sets the entire game back a minute or so till another MAC gets sent from base. I guess the main idea is to change the MACs role from "most important unit in the game" into "a very useful allly, but not the end of the world if its destroyed".
Again, a lot of the finer details will need play tested regardless to see which one fits the best. This method also creates questions on the role of the gorge and alien commander on the other side, in regards to building structures.
it was called WELDbot not BUILDbot, so its not meant to be in game from start on.
just my cents.
Howso... Marines building, if implemented by buying a tool from the armory, has no impact on the commander building. It only aids the team in getting buildings online faster. Nothing confusing about that...
1. commander van use MAC's to put down buildings and build/repair them
2. a marine who has bought said tool, can do his thing when the MAC is busy/destroyed/not in the area (repairs for instance)
I don't see anything confusing about that. If noone buys the tool, the game does not change much other then being dependent on the MAC's only...
1. commander van use MAC's to put down buildings and build/repair them
2. a marine who has bought said tool, can do his thing when the MAC is busy/destroyed/not in the area (repairs for instance)
I don't see anything confusing about that. If noone buys the tool, the game does not change much other then being dependent on the MAC's only...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a new player to understand that both MACs and marines can build but only one or the other can do it at a certain speed or create the ghost will be confusing imo.
I completely agree. I would very much love to see marines back as builders - even if they're awfully slow and can't shoot while building.
How about giving building marines a penalty by increasing the time it takes to put switch their weapons? That way everybody will still rather let the MAC build when available.
<b>OP +1</b>
It's not too early to look at a mechanic like this and claim it's bad. As a game designer myself I have pretty strong opinions that using NPCs to build structures will severely hurt the gameplay of NS2.
Without going into too much detail on any one, here are my reasons:
1. It will lead to less interaction between the grunts and the commander.
2. It removes the requirement of player presence for construction, which will alter the ebb and flow of "territory control" in a negative way
3. It's extremely difficult for a NPC to possibly follow the same "optimal path" through a level that a player could.
4. NPCs will likely die to stupid reasons when the commander is distracted, causing frustration.
5. It removes the "support" role from the game, which many less combat oriented/skilled players loved as a way to still contribute.
I would strongly, strongly suggest that this mechanic be removed from the game.
RT , Siege , Phase Gate should be handled by marines.
for RolePlay u can say it has some batte...ry autofilled by the CC by electric field or whatever so it cant go too far.
Btw im also for destroying alien thingy so gorge take the power again. they kinda are useless for me now, but that another point that u'll have to decide if its not already set in stones.
Exept if gorge are given something more (liek really big...) i wont be playin the gorgie in NS games ;/ find it really boring and useless.
Where are the teamplay in them now, seems that u did it so newbie CS player would like to spam their res on hydras and make a fortress like playin lego woohoo :s
but i do agree i would want to build with the MAC mean if you escort a MAC to build something you could build with it, and when there a threat you let the MAC doing the job while you defend the MAC, and while MAC are busy elsewhere people would still be able to build in base or somewhere else ( i do believe there is a limited MAC number in the game i suppose, but i dont know since i cant play :( )
OR a second idea for let marine build : the only way a marine could is when he got the welder ( its would now logical i believe ) but a marine builder will be slower than a MAC so its would still keep the needing of MAC to build stuff.
was just some of my idea and sorry for bad english, its not my primary
<u><b>On building:</b></u>
Larger/More significant buildings require three phases for building. Materials deployment, a physical phase and a programming phase.
Smaller buildings only require two phases. Physical phase and a programming phase.
Buildings have different percentages of physical/programming based on their function.
All large buildings still require the commander to place them. (MAC required, see materials deployment below)
All small buildings require the access tool to place. (see access tool below)
Materials deployment is the transport of materials for building, on smaller buildings (e.g. turrets) the materials can be phased with the commander placing it. With larger buildings, there is too much material to phase (or things like the power source can't be phased?) and so the MAC must physically transport the materials. No materials would be initially phased for larger buildings (because then you'd have to defend the MAC -and- the placement point until it got there).
MAC's excel at physical construction, they do poorly with programming. (MAC's can carry heavy tools like a welder) E.g. A MAC builds physically at full rate, it does programming at half the rate.
Marines excel at programming, they do poorly at the physical construction. (Humans can input the environment variables quickly) E.g. A marine does programming at full rate and builds physically at half the rate.
Access Tool: Cheap or medium purchase and replaces/takes up a gun slot (for balance, otherwise it just becomes superfluous, or alternatively, limit purchase to one or two; the signals interfere with each other?). Repairs buildings at slow rate. Can repair armor at a slow rate.
A MAC and marines can work together on a building.
<b>To give examples, Turrets:</b>
Percent Physical: 30% (It's a gun on a swivel stick)
Percent Programming: 70% (It has to shoot the aliens and not your team mates)
This means turrets can be quickly deployed by a commander/marine combo. Or more slowly by a commander/Mac combo. A commander/MAC/Marine combo would be the fastest deployment.
<b>Resource collectors:</b>
MAC needs to place materials initially, but is not required after that.
Percent Physical: 80% (It's complex, yep)
Programming: 20% (Munch this spot)
This means a RC can be quickly deployed by a commander/MAC combo. More slowly be a commander/Marine combo (after initial placement). And fastest deployment by the triple combo.
<b>Extras: </b>
Marines can ping/place a beacon requesting a building from the commander (like a build menu, but you drop a beacon instead of an actual building).
<b>Summary:</b>
This to me is the "have your cake and eat it" scenario. It means the commander can still function without help, but there's a lot of opportunity to be a support class. If you have a team where one (or two) are acting the engineer and they coordinate with the commander, they're going to act very efficiently. Or the engineers can choose to support their front line/defenses. Basically, more teamwork opportunities (whole point of NS) and the commander is even less isolated from his team (which was the point of the MAC, I believe).
<u><b>On sealing Doors:</b></u>
Doors have two levels of "being sealed".
<b>Level 1 Seal (Programming seal - short time period to lock, medium to unlock):</b>
Can be done by a Marine with an access tool (from building section) quickly.
Can be done by a MAC, but more slowly.
Can be removed by a gorge (gunk it until it shorts out and opens)
Can be removed, but much more slowly, by the infestation/creep.
Can be re-sealed if opened by the gorge, cannot if opened by the infestation/creep.
<b>Level 2 Seal (Welding seal - long period to lock, medium period to unlock):</b>
Does not require that the Level 1 seal be in place.
Door being opened while in the process of sealing it, causes a percentage to be undone.
Cannot be done by a Marine, even with the access tool.
Can only be done by the MAC, takes a long while.
Can only be removed (or pre-emptively made impossible) by an Onus (smashing it open, basically).
Cannot be resealed, door is permanently open.
<b>Summary:</b>
This would probably be damned difficult to implement, but I would love it. The arrangement is basically my thoughts on the balance, giving the Marines a bit of an edge in the beginning if it's used effectively, but making it far more difficult to do a harder seal. The edge being given to the aliens in later game. My thoughts are that it would make doors another strategic element in maps designed for such.
------
Now, off to the shops I go...
Of course you need marines protecting it, and is the same with the aliens. No protection means no building. Like in NS1 when you sent 1 marine to build and is pawned by 2 or 3 skulks, even 1.
I like the idea of having MACs only to build, and the players protect it. It took the same time as if you are building it but you can protect it better.
On the door sealing, I like the 2 levels, but should be like a normal lock door button that can be easily bypassed by aliens (infestation power down, acid?) and the welded door that needs an Onos to smash it down.
If the devs are on the fence at the moment, consider trying it out with MAC first and see how that goes. Alpha testers haven't seen the game come together yet, and who knows maybe the MAC make sense when things fill out. The nice thing about the dual building is that it is a safe fallback and isn't too different.
The thing with marine that can build is that they are players and they can defend them self based on their skills. A noob would not survive very long but a skilled veteran might. So why not add the ability to the macs to defend themselves and why not make them upgradeable to make them stronger but not in a way that all macs get stronger just one mac. Also this process might be done by marines so they have a role in the training of a super mac.
Please tell me if you like the idea and don't hesitate to comment on it :)
Without going into too much detail on any one, here are my reasons:
1. It will lead to less interaction between the grunts and the commander.
2. It removes the requirement of player presence for construction, which will alter the ebb and flow of "territory control" in a negative way
3. It's extremely difficult for a NPC to possibly follow the same "optimal path" through a level that a player could.
4. NPCs will likely die to stupid reasons when the commander is distracted, causing frustration.
5. It removes the "support" role from the game, which many less combat oriented/skilled players loved as a way to still contribute.
I would strongly, strongly suggest that this mechanic be removed from the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Incorrect. If the grunts and the commander do not communicate, they will not be able to properly defend the bot. An undefended bot is an eaten bot, is a waste of resources and no building.
2. Incorrect. An undefended bot is an eaten bot, unless it's in safe territory.. in which case a requirement for player presence is a detriment to an exciting game.
3. True, but incorrect. It's not just an NPC, it's a commander controlled unit.
4 True and correct. However, this is a problem with your commander(s), not the system -- remember that you can have more than one commander in NS2
5. Incorrect. The support role is still present with welding of doors, repairing armor, repairing already built items, scouting, clearing DI, etc.
However building within the base is a bit less fun, perhaps the MAC could be restricted to building within the spawn areas...
Then let MACs use the PG, problem solved. ;)
Again: can we just wait until after we try it when the game is more complete? I'm still angry that the electric sidearm got axed two seconds after it was revealed.
This is my favorite solution.
Extremely simple to understand, makes MAC's primary targets, but doesn't halt marine progress completely when they're destroyed.
Extremely simple to understand, makes MAC's primary targets, but doesn't halt marine progress completely when they're destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's perfekt!
I think it should be done with -
MACs- build all structure types at fast speed
Marines - build only basic structures at half speed and can purchase special secondary item (like a power drill or such) that let's them build at full speed.
The idea of marines creeped out while building a resource node too far out for a MAC really is just too much of an identity of NS to leave out. If it's too OP make it slower and slower.... the slower the creepier so I won't mind.