Don't buy into the Marines must be able to build.
Jimyd
Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Members
Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It is not for the better.</div>Otherwise, Commanding will be just be a Babysitting Research Monkey again.
Less Marines fighting, the slower gameplay becomes. Also having high Structure HP(but you changed that).
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Keep the RTS aspect of NS2 its own non-mixed thing.
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If you must allow Marines to build Strucutres, then force them to be using their Welder(must buy one). I still say it is a bad idea(because you would have to do that Ghost Structure stuff again).
Plus this is just another excuse for all the NS1 fanatics who want a carbon copy for NS2, to not learn to do anything new as a Commander. More micro is better for the Commander, since the Commander doesn't have to directly control his Marines.
And yes I am saying it like the Commander would not be able to build MACs if they changed this(which won't be the case), but people will just be lazy and start yelling at Players to build the base and stuff because they are lazy at Commanding.
And like I said, it doesn't make sense in NS1 how Marines could build a structure without a Welder, and we have a replacement for that; the MAC.
Less Marines fighting, the slower gameplay becomes. Also having high Structure HP(but you changed that).
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Keep the RTS aspect of NS2 its own non-mixed thing.
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If you must allow Marines to build Strucutres, then force them to be using their Welder(must buy one). I still say it is a bad idea(because you would have to do that Ghost Structure stuff again).
Plus this is just another excuse for all the NS1 fanatics who want a carbon copy for NS2, to not learn to do anything new as a Commander. More micro is better for the Commander, since the Commander doesn't have to directly control his Marines.
And yes I am saying it like the Commander would not be able to build MACs if they changed this(which won't be the case), but people will just be lazy and start yelling at Players to build the base and stuff because they are lazy at Commanding.
And like I said, it doesn't make sense in NS1 how Marines could build a structure without a Welder, and we have a replacement for that; the MAC.
Comments
Building structures is the most concrete way to make a marine feel like they're really a part of the RTS model, too, and I like it that way.
Also, I don't think building slows down gameplay. In fact, it helps to solidify the aliens' role. If you let marines build, they should win. Aliens need to be constantly ambushing/stalking/harassing marines as they attempt to do so. That's what makes for the game's very intense feel. If you're a marine, you're always venturing out to build, anticipating attack.
You could do this as well for multiple MACs building the same structure(think Starcraft SCVs).
Still make the Marines require a Welder. And put a cap of 1 Marine for building speedup(more than 1 doesn't increase building). This way, we don't have Armories around the map being instant built by 10 Players at once.
Building structures is the most concrete way to make a marine feel like they're really a part of the RTS model, too, and I like it that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FPS-RTS Hybrid in NS2 is having a Commander that does the duties of the RTS aspect. You do not see Marines in Starcraft doing the building, or any other Combat Unit for that matter.
Now that there is a replacement(NS1 had Marines building due to Engine Limitation at the time; Half-Life AI wasn't that good in early NS1), it is better to have the distinction of the FPS and RTS.
That's irrelevant. This isn't Starcraft, so a 1:1 comparison doesn't justify any sort of paradigm.
And this game is basically Starcraft, its just we(the Players) get to control the individual Combat Units directly instead of the Commander moving them around. Thus the FPS aspect.
It is pretty comparable. NS2 is suppose to have a lot more stuff, listen to that recent 80 minute podcast, there are a lot of hints in it related to Commanding and its Gameplay.
It is at the end, like the last 30 minutes. Check NS2 twitter for link.
It has a lot of similarities to and inspiration from Starcraft, but it's not just a remap of Starcraft with player-controlled units. You can't justify a decision just by saying "Well, Starcraft does it that way." You have to justify a gameplay decision for NS2 within the context of how that affects the way NS2 works, because NS2 is in fact NS2 and not Starcraft.
And I have listened to the podcast. Nowhere in the podcast did I hear Charlie say "Well, we're basically building Starcraft 2 on an FPS engine. Should be fun!"
And I have listened to the podcast. Nowhere in the podcast did I hear Charlie say "Well, we're basically building Starcraft 2 on an FPS engine. Should be fun!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a statement of the Lore and the Design of the Units, which duh, otherwise there would be copyright issues.
Remember, unlike Starcraft, you only have about 12-16 Players to do actual fighting(unlike the 200 Supply limit of Starcraft). So the Commander doesn't really need the fighting units to take themselves out of the game constantly. It is boring for the Players who are building, and it slows gameplay down.
This is why Skulks bite down everything real fast, because it was very boring in NS1.
...They're not just building Starcraft with redesigned lore and rename units to avoid copyright infringement. They're doing it because NS2 is -- I emphasize -- <b>its own game</b>. NS2 is not designed to be or balanced as a Starcraft 2 clone. Period. End of story.
Also why does anyone who wants what made this game so unique and popular to a tight society have to be a fanatic? I can assure everyone just doesn't want this game to be water-downed to appeal to impatient demographic who will pay, play and move on.
Fact. Nearly every highly competitive and popular HL1 had been succeeded by a a carbon copy with SOME aesthetics or subtle gameplay changes. Why? Because they don't need radical changes to attract all the original players AND new players back.
If you were as loyal, and skilled enough to understand what made NS1 such a gem then you should too be paranoid and a bit cautious about large gameplay changes. It doesn't make you a fanatic and it doesn't make you stubborn on good changes.
Also why does anyone want wants what made this game so unique and popular to a tight society have to be a fanatic? I can assure everyone just doesn't want this game to be water-downed to appeal to impatient demographic who will pay, play and move on.
Fact. Nearly every highly competitive and popular HL1 had been succeeded by a a carbon copy with SOME aesthetics or subtle gameplay changes. Why? Because they don't need radical changes to attract all the original players AND new players back.
If you were as loyal, and skilled enough to understand what made NS1 such a gem then you should too be paranoid and a bit cautious about large gameplay changes. It doesn't make you a fanatic and it doesn't make you stubborn on good changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to not read. I never said NS1 had slow gameplay. I said forcing Marines to build(when there is a better alternative in NS2 now for the Commander to control building) slows gameplay down.
I stopped reading after your first sentence. Nice try.
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I played Competitive as well, if any is questioning my "experience"(don't need to derail this thread into a Comp. vs. Pub thing).
<u>Nobody can argue that Building RTs as a Marine, and biting down Nodes for a long ass time as a Skulk, <b>did not make the Gameplay slower than what it really should have been</b>.</u>
It is 100% for the better to not have to do that stuff as a Marine, and focus on fighting, and for Skulks to do quick hit-and-run tactics on <b>Structures</b> that do have a meaningful reward.
Actually we can argue that and many of us have. Saying it louder doesn't make it true. Sorry.
This is mostly due to AI implementation. We have come a long was since the days of just simple pre-defined Waypoints/Navpoints for AI coding.
Most people take it for granted now. So some of these mundane(key word) tasks you really want to do as a Marine, is not that really appealing to new and old/vet/classic Players.
I tried to get someone into NS1, and he didn't really like Commanding, but also did not like having to always stop for 15-30 seconds to build for the Commander.
Also due to the lack of skill(being new to the game) he died a lot, so thus those type of Players get force to be the Commander's base building monkey. It is not fun.
This is mostly due to AI implementation. We have come a long was since the days of just simple pre-defined Waypoints/Navpoints for AI coding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is simply a false premise. The AI for buildbots could have been implemented in the old NS.
What is there to argue? More time spent building, and time spent waiting for a HP bar to go down as a Skulk, equals slower gameplay.
What is the counter-point you are trying to say?
Because this is why it is changed in NS2, for the Skulk(Kharaa) at least, so there is less menial tasks and more actual exciting gameplay more frequently for newer players.
This is also why you have 45 minute long games in a Public Server, is because every Player has to stop what they are doing very frequently, in order to advance.
And they would have been pretty terrible.
And they probably would have been land based.
The only thing I think a flying MAC would have been modeled(the waypoint/navpoint system) off of, would have been the XEN creatures.
And they move pretty slow, so they don't make mistakes flying into walls.
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The best comparison is the Whichbot and Foxbot AI in current NS1 for Lerks, and it isn't that good.
And they probably would have been land based.
The only thing I think a flying MAC would have been modeled(the waypoint/navpoint system) off of, would have been the XEN creatures.
And they move pretty slow, so they don't make mistakes flying into walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I don't know where you're getting this. Are you just making stuff up now?
This. And, the Waypoint system for the Marine Commander. It is not very precise(still isn't).
Clicking near walls can send a Waypoint into the ceiling, or just not make one at all. And Right Clicking on buildings to give Weld orders is very hit and miss as well.
Now lets combine that with Builder AI, yeah I do not think so.
While the commander plays his little rts game isolated from the rest of the team.
While the commander plays his little rts game isolated from the rest of the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 Commander's are suppose to be getting a lot of Spells that directly affect his team on the ground(both Alien and Marine Commanders).
Listen to the recent Podcast.
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And that is what the Players on the ground should be doing, is fighting. They are the combat units, not the SCVs/Drones of the team.
Plus they will be busy escorting MASCs, and flanking the Enemy Team/Hives(Alien Kommander ability lets them Shift Hives around).
Now lets combine that with Builder AI, yeah I do not think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Commander hit detection is prett buggy and hits ceilings in NS2 currently, also. That isn't a technological limitation, it's just a niche that hasn't been polished yet. If they'd chosen to do so in NS1, I'm sure they could have fixed it so that Buildbots worked fine.
Listen to the recent Podcast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh sweet, I am doing awesome in this rts match. Okay marines, here's the shotguns you always wanted. Now leave me alone to my bots.
The only difference now, is the Commander doesn't have to babysit the Marines and buy their Weapons for them.
He just researches the ability to buy them.
This is an improvment over the NS1 Gameplay model.
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It keeps the aspects of the game well and defined. The Commander(s) help the Marines on the ground indirectly(spells/MASC/MAC/Drifter/Etc.), while the Marines and Kharaa lifeforms do all the fighting. They do not interfere, and do not have to interfere, with what the Commander(s) wants to do or is doing currently.
He just researches the ability to buy them.
This is an improvment over the NS1 Gameplay model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, <i>that</i> is an improvement.
Having researching and bacon being the only kind of interaction between the commander isn't very fun.
The marine is not just a combat unit in this game either... Or at least I hope there will be options to do more then just shoot stuff...
Having researching and bacon being the only kind of interaction between the commander isn't very fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And MACs(like building stuff; Turrets) and MASCs(Sieges), and AoE Buffing Spells, and Researching Tech(suppose to be closer to a Starcraft 2ish type of amount), and yeah.
The marine is not just a combat unit in this game either... Or at least I hope there will be options to do more then just shoot stuff...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I do think that would be fine by allowing the Marines to buy a Welder and help speedup up a Building that has been started construction by a MAC. However, make it so increasing building speed does not stack(limit it to 1 Marine with a Welder per a Structure).
It is just stupid in NS1 seeing half the team run off and half the team circling the IP + Armory in the beginning of a game. And whenever they need to build an RT.
What about it? That's just the commander playing his rts while I'm playing my lemming shooter. Still having no interaction, just standing there and waiting for enemies to shoot. feeling about as useful as some mercenary rather than a soldier helping his team prepare for battle.
The clone army is bred for killing, what do you expect?
NS Lore, ya I know.
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And you don't stand there and wait for enemies like it is a Defuse Map from Counter-Strike. You push into the Hiveroom/Command-Chair to win the game.
Since once all Hives/CCs are destroyed, the game is over instantly. No more ping-of-death.
leave RTSing to the commander - if you allow individual units to mess with <u>RESOURCE ALLOCATION</u> then it's going to be a gigantic clusterfcuk. i say throw the complainers a bone and let units assist in building an already-started building more rapidly, but don't let them initiate construction themselves - there will be no way for the commander to allocate resources effectively if this happens.
<!--quoteo(post=1791150:date=Aug 3 2010, 02:22 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Aug 3 2010, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i agree with the OP
leave RTSing to the commander - if you allow individual units to mess with <u>RESOURCE ALLOCATION</u> then it's going to be a gigantic clusterfcuk. i say throw the complainers a bone and let units assist in building an already-started building more rapidly, but don't let them initiate construction themselves - there will be no way for the commander to allocate resources effectively if this happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines don't touch the commander's res in ns1. The commander was the person who spawned everything. I have no idea what you're talking about.