<!--quoteo(post=1779284:date=Jul 15 2010, 04:13 PM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Jul 15 2010, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->paying to stand out = tf2 ..?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A hat's a hat. Whether you're wearing a beret because you supported L$D2, or earbuds because you bought TF2 on Mac, or black armour because you bought SE. A hat is a hat.
<!--quoteo(post=1779346:date=Jul 15 2010, 06:53 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 15 2010, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it matter really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, it cheapens the game with gimmickry. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for customization, but that's what armslab is for and WOW mods and mp_consistency 0. I'm just waiting to see the reaction when SE's have their black armour mp_consistency checked and/or disabled server-side.
It's not cheapening anything at all, it's exactly the same game, with black armor on top. The game doesn't revolve around the black armor, it is not a gameplay element, people are not encouraged to collect different armor suits, the black armor is exclusively bonus. Now yes, it's a bit of a gimmick, but the point is, that gimmick probably financed a non negligible chunk of NS2 funding, and there are no drawbacks at all so far (black armor's gone in two weeks, and I don't feel that UWE will be putting money to create gimmick assets)
<!--quoteo(post=1779404:date=Jul 15 2010, 11:30 PM:name=Renegade.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renegade. @ Jul 15 2010, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A hat's a hat. Whether you're wearing a beret because you supported L$D2, or earbuds because you bought TF2 on Mac, or black armour because you bought SE. A hat is a hat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly now... do you actually think people purchased TF2 on a mac, or L4D2 or Sam & Max because they wanted the exclusive hat?
I pre-ordered L4D2 because I was a huge fan of the original, and that unlocked Bill's hat for me in Team Fortress 2 which to me felt like a "thank you" from the developer. I really don't see how this is bad for PC gaming, it's purely cosmetic and optional. If you don't want to mess with hats in TF2, you don't have to and this doesn't diminish the gameplay at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1779408:date=Jul 15 2010, 08:40 PM:name=ZimbuTheMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZimbuTheMonkey @ Jul 15 2010, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly now... do you actually think people purchased TF2 on a mac, or L4D2 or Sam & Max because they wanted the exclusive hat?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I should have worded it differently. There will always be people making purchases that to most seem unjustified or outright stupid. I really doubt that the amount of players that did so was significant.
<!--quoteo(post=1779407:date=Jul 15 2010, 10:38 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 15 2010, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not cheapening anything at all, it's exactly the same game, with black armor on top.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1779408:date=Jul 15 2010, 10:40 PM:name=ZimbuTheMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZimbuTheMonkey @ Jul 15 2010, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly now... do you actually think people purchased TF2 on a mac, or L4D2 or Sam & Max because they wanted the exclusive hat?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When you've been around you learn the true nature of the beast, you learn that people simply logon to a mac machine to gain the buds, not re-purchase it, you learn that idle server exists, and in the thousands, you learn that BF2 players merely borrow SF accounts to gain the unlocks, you learn that sprite files are changed for the tiniest of detail, yes you learn all of this, that skulks will be pink if given the chance and armour being black is no less gimmickry or disruptive. You ask me if I think it? no. I know it. Because I've seen it all before, being done and doing it myself. I've been to the depths and back, so when you ask does it cheapen it, do we need to ask it again when we've seen this exactly happen in every game with unlocks and hats?
And when you claim it's exactly the same game, then I know you weren't there. You weren't there for pink skulks, because that's NS with pink on top right? You weren't there for red dot crosshairs and sprite changes, because it's exactly the same game right? You weren't there for hit-box-sized models, and you weren't there for r_drawviewmodel. The newcomers may laugh at what is perceived to be inconsequential, yet the experienced who know what gameplay looks like at the highest levels of this game do not laugh when so much as a pre-match screenshot is returned to them with even a single pixel out-of-place.
<!--quoteo(post=1779417:date=Jul 16 2010, 12:06 AM:name=Renegade.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renegade. @ Jul 16 2010, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you've been around you learn the true nature of the beast, you learn that people simply logon to a mac machine to gain the buds, not re-purchase it, you learn that idle server exists, and in the thousands, you learn that BF2 players merely borrow SF accounts to gain the unlocks, you learn that sprite files are changed for the tiniest of detail, yes you learn all of this, that skulks will be pink if given the chance and armour being black is no less gimmickry or disruptive. You ask me if I think it? no. I know it. Because I've seen it all before, being done and doing it myself. I've been to the depths and back, so when you ask does it cheapen it, do we need to ask it again when we've seen this exactly happen in every game with unlocks and hats?
And when you claim it's exactly the same game, then I know you weren't there. You weren't there for pink skulks, because that's NS with pink on top right? You weren't there for red dot crosshairs and sprite changes, because it's exactly the same game right? You weren't there for hit-box-sized models, and you weren't there for r_drawviewmodel. The newcomers may laugh at what is perceived to be inconsequential, yet the experienced who know what gameplay looks like at the highest levels of this game do not laugh when so much as a pre-match screenshot is returned to them with even a single pixel out-of-place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus... You just blew my mind...
You really need to calm down dude, it's not that serious. We're all just playing video games, some people enjoy them differently than you do.
I don't understand what the problem is with 99% of the atrocities you just listed. And I've been around for a long time, obviously not in the NS community but I'm an old ass PC gamer as well. But I guess that makes me part of the problem.
EDIT: To be more precise, if it helps you cheat or gain an unfair advantage over other players in a multiplayer game, that's where I start having problems with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1778882:date=Jul 14 2010, 06:10 PM:name=Renegade.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renegade. @ Jul 14 2010, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1778882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->everyday the evidence is mounting behind the ugly truth of SEs and IDIFBA ("I Did It For Black Armour")<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh no, we don't want the ugly truth to come out! Someone call the pentagon, we need this suppressed, stat! We can't have folks going around with all sorts of crazy ideas and truths and hats!
<!--quoteo(post=1779420:date=Jul 16 2010, 12:24 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Jul 16 2010, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh no, we don't want the ugly truth to come out! Someone call the pentagon, we need this suppressed, stat! We can't have folks going around with all sorts of crazy ideas and truths and hats!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hi. I'm Saxony. And I'm a black armoraholic. I DID IT FOR THE BLACK ARMOR!!!
<!--quoteo(post=1779417:date=Jul 16 2010, 12:06 AM:name=Renegade.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renegade. @ Jul 16 2010, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The newcomers may laugh at what is perceived to be inconsequential, yet the experienced who know what gameplay looks like at the highest levels of this game do not laugh when so much as a pre-match screenshot is returned to them with even a single pixel out-of-place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The experienced really need to lighten up. I'm not laughing because it <i>seems</i> inconsequential, I'm laughing because it is. As long as these things are controlled properly, there should be no, or at least negligible effect on the actual gameplay. If you've hit a point such that some like this ruins the game for you, you need to step back and reassess your priorities. Which do you want, uniformity or fun? Because you're not going to get both.
Even still, I haven't been around NS for very long, but a little Googling has confirmed for me that a lot of the things you listed are client-side hacks. These things aren't meant to be in the game and there has been a lot of progress to ensure that such hacks are not usable. Any decent server will force the client to use the same files as the server. At that point it's just a matter of picking the right one. Then you'll only have the official deviations from the norm. The ones that are usually designed to avoid their impact on gameplay. If in the end you still can't hack it because some people paid a little more for a change of colour, then you're out of luck.
Also, have you considered that about 90% of the people here paid for that black armor and maybe, just <i>maybe</i>, they don't appreciate you telling them what is and is not a valid way to spend their hard-earned cash.
<!--quoteo(post=1779423:date=Jul 16 2010, 12:31 AM:name=Alex2539)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex2539 @ Jul 16 2010, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, have you considered that about 90% of the people here paid for that black armor and maybe, just <i>maybe</i>, they don't appreciate you telling them what is and is not a valid way to spend their hard-earned cash.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what I've read in a few posts, Renegade does not have a problem with those that have purchased the Special Edition, only those that have purchased it fully or partly because of the black armour.
I donated to ns1. I bought sudoku...it actually is a very nice game and I bought the bigger package...because they do good work and i think they get a better cut at this point.
Oh and I did it for the black armor.
The Black armor will be interesting if this takes off. Then they will be not common.
A new player would say "What upgrade is that." and someone would say..."That's just the first drop...they have been here ...before the beginning"
While I'm generally against the sort of nickle-and-dime <i>"why make an expansion pack when we can sell each piece for $5 and then roll out the sequel next year instead"</i> DLC that's becoming increasingly popular and am not buying the Special Edition (hell, I don't even preorder games), I don't have a problem with UWE's handling of Black Armor.
It's pretty clearly not a case of selling an extra skin for $20; rather, they're asking for people to give them extra support so they can actually finish the game, and then doing what they can to show their appreciation in small ways. I doubt a black recolor with some cute goggles set them back a whole lot in production and they were gonna have to playtest Alpha one way or another.
Exactly, paying the extra cash was to help support the developers and help to move towards a finished game- although finished will include many versions, changes and patches etc :)
Back in the old days I remember visits to 'mp_consistency 0' servers to be chaos, with anything from mario models to Marshmallow running around, and not being able to work out exactly who was on your team lol
<!--quoteo(post=1779470:date=Jul 16 2010, 10:16 AM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Jul 16 2010, 10:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I'm generally against the sort of nickle-and-dime <i>"why make an expansion pack when we can sell each piece for $5 and then roll out the sequel next year instead"</i> DLC that's becoming increasingly popular and am not buying the Special Edition (hell, I don't even preorder games), I don't have a problem with UWE's handling of Black Armor.
It's pretty clearly not a case of selling an extra skin for $20; rather, they're asking for people to give them extra support so they can actually finish the game, and then doing what they can to show their appreciation in small ways. I doubt a black recolor with some cute goggles set them back a whole lot in production and they were gonna have to playtest Alpha one way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this sums up most of my views, although I've got the SE bought.
The thing that bothers me with most of the DLC is that a lot of it seems to be just completely random content that affects the game here and there without any clearly designed logic, style or purpose. I know the changes are small and the actual effect to your experience usually remains positive, but I still prefer to play my games as one definite and accurately designed product with clear choise of style in both artistic and gameplay design. Meanwhile I dislike games that have some kind of obscure, little core game which then gets decorated with all kinds of glimmery stuff.
Black armor is still within boundaries in my opinion. It's still a very clear and yet subtle, carefully thought out design with a clear purpose. If they added 5 more armors, weird 10% boost to player score and an ability to shoot fireworks on readyroom, I'd be against it.
P.S. I've got nothing against the NS1 fireworks plugin, but I'd rather not have it in the core product :)
<!--quoteo(post=1779417:date=Jul 16 2010, 05:06 AM:name=Renegade.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renegade. @ Jul 16 2010, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you've been around you learn the true nature of the beast, you learn that people simply logon to a mac machine to gain the buds, not re-purchase it, you learn that idle server exists, and in the thousands, you learn that BF2 players merely borrow SF accounts to gain the unlocks, you learn that sprite files are changed for the tiniest of detail, yes you learn all of this, that skulks will be pink if given the chance and armour being black is no less gimmickry or disruptive. You ask me if I think it? no. I know it. Because I've seen it all before, being done and doing it myself. I've been to the depths and back, so when you ask does it cheapen it, do we need to ask it again when we've seen this exactly happen in every game with unlocks and hats?
And when you claim it's exactly the same game, then I know you weren't there. You weren't there for pink skulks, because that's NS with pink on top right? You weren't there for red dot crosshairs and sprite changes, because it's exactly the same game right? You weren't there for hit-box-sized models, and you weren't there for r_drawviewmodel. The newcomers may laugh at what is perceived to be inconsequential, yet the experienced who know what gameplay looks like at the highest levels of this game do not laugh when so much as a pre-match screenshot is returned to them with even a single pixel out-of-place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what is your point exactly? Are you against hats because they bring nothing to the game apart from costing resources that could be better spent? Or are you against hats because they're against your vision of competitive gaming?
If it's the first, then so far the black armor has probably generated a lot of income. They're not making models as a game feature, it's just one single shot to thank those who have been supporting them for so long. Some have bought SE for Alpha, some for the gratitude, some for the black skin. It all comes to the same: 40 extra bucks for UWE. UWE aren't going to feel all fuzzy inside and think you're the better person because anyone claims that they bought the SE for the right reason, or look at you sideways because you spent 20 bucks for a model.
If it's the second, then I think you need to cool down. You're comparing a model developed by UWE with pink skins, whitewalls and drawviewmodel 0. The term red herring comes to mind. But even so, I'm sure that if your overly sensitive competitive reflexes will be thrown off balance by something like the color of a skin and nv goggles sitting on a model's head, then they will be left out of consistency check.
That being said, I truly wonder how exactly you figure I lack experience at this game. I have seen all this game has to offer, and I've settled exactly where I felt comfortable. It's not because I don't want to be on the competitive edge that I am any less experienced (striking as it might seem to you, many feel that the highest levels of the game aren't the most fun). It would seem to me that for you, competitive players hold the absolute truth, and as such everyone else just didn't get to see the game. I've certainly played NS1 for as long as most here, I've wasted too much time on this game. I know what I'm talking about.
All in all, Bacillus pretty much says it right: DLC is bothersome when it becomes a commercial model. Where you're actually expected to spend extra money every so often to be on par, even if the DLC doesn't make sense. One armor as part of a thank you gift seems reasonable.
<!--quoteo(post=1779359:date=Jul 16 2010, 03:35 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 16 2010, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, let me lmao. Ok. If you really wanted to stand out from the crowd, then green armor is the way to do it imho. Because from the looks of things, everybody, their uncle, and their dog, will be wearing black armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
About 9000 people have pre-ordered the SE. When NS2 finally goes gold, I think it will have a lot more players than that. So, no, black will not be the dominant color.
<!--quoteo(post=1779288:date=Jul 16 2010, 12:27 AM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 16 2010, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Renegade is trolling again, stating that individuality in video games paid or unpaid is a terrible terrible thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is, many kids bought the game for the armor, or illusion of helping / thanking uwe, alpha release or anything like that theres no need justify your choice to everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1779773:date=Jul 16 2010, 11:40 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 16 2010, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is, many kids bought the game for the armor, or illusion of helping / thanking uwe, alpha release or anything like that theres no need justify your choice to everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How exactly is paying UWE $40 an illusion of helping them?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is, many kids bought the game for the armor, or illusion of helping / thanking uwe, alpha release or anything like that theres no need justify your choice to everyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's that "k-word" again. Why are you guys so elitist? Being older or having more experience in the sacred hobby of video gaming does not make you superior. Neither does spending money on things that YOU consider appropriate.
What exactly is the problem with people that want to spend 20 dollars for armor? Are they breaking the game? How are they making it less enjoyable for YOU? You may think it is a senseless waste of 20 dollars, but last time I checked you aren't their financial advisors. I mean do you people go around your neighborhood gossiping about neighbors that made a purchase you deem to be too extravagant or useless?
You are right about one thing though, there's no need to justify your decision. Because it's no one's business but your own, it's between the individual and the company they are getting the product/service from.
<!--quoteo(post=1779531:date=Jul 16 2010, 09:56 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 16 2010, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what is your point exactly? Are you against hats because they bring nothing to the game apart from costing resources that could be better spent? Or are you against hats because they're against your vision of competitive gaming?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> None of what you listed apply, though I will say dev-sanctioned white walls do not make it any less a hack. What I am against is gimmicks. Tokens for support are fine, gimmicks that appear in game are not. See the response below for why I figure you lack experience, or rather when I hear responses that pink skulks and r_drawviewmodel are inconsequential.
<!--quoteo(post=1779802:date=Jul 16 2010, 04:07 PM:name=ZimbuTheMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZimbuTheMonkey @ Jul 16 2010, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's that "k-word" again. Why are you guys so elitist? Being older or having more experience in the sacred hobby of video gaming does not make you superior. Neither does spending money on things that YOU consider appropriate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here is a lesson in every domain: the expert opinion trumps that of the average consumer, yet is balanced by majority opinion. Why does the professor feel his opinion is superior to the layman? Why the formula racer to the novice driver? Or the general to a recruit? We've seen what you've seen and more, the converse is not true, for this reason our opinion is more educated. You and others may not see a problem with r_drawviewmodel or custom sprites, but that is because you never achieved a level of play where it mattered. Those who have, have not only achieved your level, but far surpassed, thus their experience <b>engulfs</b> yours and is superior for that reason. Ask yourself the question who was responsible for discovering the exploits in r_drawviewmodel, pink skulks, custom textures, and so forth? Not the pubbers, because according to them it has no effect right?
Gimmicks that are present within gameplay (no matter their impact) have no business being in any respected game, and it breaks my heart to see one of my most highly-respected games of all time - earned not in graphics or hype but sheer gameplay genius - denigrate itself with cheap gimmickry.
As if the list of reasons I have given were not long enough, and if I have already not shown the DIFBA count to be shamefully longer than most claim, then I leave you with yet another disheartening realization: Those of you who were around for NS 1.0 will recall the endless marine stacking from the influx of those (mostly CS nubs) whose only skill was "point-and-shoot". Now add this same influx for NS2, but tenfold this number for every generic FPS flooding the market with shooter noobers. Again tenfold this, as NS2 (unlike NS) claims to cater to this wider audience. <b>And for the finale</b>, tenfold it once more because of the ultimate incentive: that <u>only marines</u> may show off their hats. Gimmicks, it's what they're good for.
Quite looking forward to my black armor to be honest, looks nice, not gaudy. Plus black and white are my two favourite colours and they rarely get used.
Not really bothered whether or not anyone else uses it though, it'd look quite nice as a standard armor variant, having all the marines look slightly different is nice, black armor would go well with jetpacks and exoskeletons to vary the marine look a bit.
Well Renegade, I still don't see how you can put black marine armor on par with pink skulks, or even with custom sprites. It's not as if the black armor was a custom skin, it's a single, isolated skin, created by the dev team. Nobody ever mentioned pink skulks except you, and I think you're just being way too picky because you think your pro status gives you the ability to do so. And again, I am aware that drawviewmodels are a gameplay element, and so are skins and models. But if black armor is ever intrusive in any way, then it'll be left out of consistency check for all competitive matchups.
Your example of racecar drivers isn't quite applicable, there are worlds of difference between everyday driving and race driving. Higher competitive circles do not engulf lower levels of play, they replace their values. What someone might feel as critical to the gaming experience, the competitive spirit will toss aside because they find it bothersome (examples would be shadows for NS, or onboard soundsystems for a car). Conversely, something that is essential to the game flow, such as timings, will eventually pass relatively unnoticed to the average newcomer. Besides, you have such a lowly opinion of pub players that you obviously show how much you've lost perspective. Pubbers aren't retards, we still can see why whitewalls and pink skulks are disruptive to gameplay.
What you fail to see is that possibilities are not necessities. The competitive crowd WILL spend time to tune the game to a set of rules. The average Joe will install and run the game.
All that being said, I don't think you've understood at all where I stand. Yes, I think black armor is a great idea. Is that why I've purchased SE? Not at all. I just find that it does what it's meant to do, that is to say, bring money to UWE for a reasonable amount of work, while not being the key feature of the game. I think they've learned with the Veteran program that adding multiple easy-to-get gimmicks are NOT a good idea.
I didn't really think much about buying the SE, 25 quid is kinda peanuts in the long run, plus the alpha is helpful because I can get more familiarity with the art and engine before I see about using it for university in october.
Besides I did play NS1 quite a lot, and I would like to see more UWE games made.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is a lesson in every domain: the expert opinion trumps that of the average consumer, yet is balanced by majority opinion. Why does the professor feel his opinion is superior to the layman? Why the formula racer to the novice driver? Or the general to a recruit? We've seen what you've seen and more, the converse is not true, for this reason our opinion is more educated. You and others may not see a problem with r_drawviewmodel or custom sprites, but that is because you never achieved a level of play where it mattered. Those who have, have not only achieved your level, but far surpassed, thus their experience engulfs yours and is superior for that reason. Ask yourself the question who was responsible for discovering the exploits in r_drawviewmodel, pink skulks, custom textures, and so forth? Not the pubbers, because according to them it has no effect right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The analogy is so inappropriate, how can you even make it seriously? Do you re-read what you type? You sound like an egomaniac. And on top of that, my question wasn't even addressed. Are you saying that superior experience, education and/or skill justifies being elitist towards those that don't have the same experience, education and/or skill?
So to recap: Your opinion is more educated = Correct Your experience "engulfs" mine = Correct A professor feels his opinion is superior to the layman = Stop projecting (thankfully not all professors are this arrogant)
Not to say that an expert's opinion is not more valuable or relevant, because it is. But once again I have to repeat: You are playing a video game, hotshot. You are at a 10 right now and you should bring it down to, say, 4 or something.
You keep referring to pink skulks, custom textures and r_drawviewmodel, and you are the only one. I've seen you toss out this red herring about 5 times now and I've just been a member of these forums for about four days. These are exploits, I've specifically spoken out against exploits and others would no-doubt do the same. Tell me again how achievements and black armor are considered exploits? Or is it the fact that the purchaser's intention is to get black armor considered the exploit?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gimmicks that are present within gameplay (no matter their impact) have no business being in any respected game, and it breaks my heart to see one of my most highly-respected games of all time - earned not in graphics or hype but sheer gameplay genius - denigrate itself with cheap gimmickry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, it's a video game. Just relax. I understand the hobby is important to you, it is to me as well, but let's not get so obsessed where you lose sight of the fun. The black armor is a gimmick, sure we can agree on that. But so what? How does it denigrate this game? Will the gameplay suffer? Is there no more strategic depth because of the armor?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those of you who were around for NS 1.0 will recall the endless marine stacking from the influx of those (mostly CS nubs) whose only skill was "point-and-shoot". Now add this same influx for NS2, but tenfold this number for every generic FPS flooding the market with shooter noobers. Again tenfold this, as NS2 (unlike NS) claims to cater to this wider audience. And for the finale, tenfold it once more because of the ultimate incentive: that only marines may show off their hats. Gimmicks, it's what they're good for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then don't play with those awful, awful CS nubs. As the community and servers mature, you will obviously find one with admins and settings that best suit your style of gameplay. Why is this even an issue? You just don't want those unwashed and unenlightened peasants even touching your hallowed game, huh?
I can't stand elitists. You just want everyone to think like you because you feel your opinions are the most "superior" and that they should "engulf" that of the others.
<!--quoteo(post=1780032:date=Jul 17 2010, 04:05 AM:name=Renegade.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Renegade. @ Jul 17 2010, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is a lesson in every domain: the expert opinion trumps that of the average consumer, yet is balanced by majority opinion. Why does the professor feel his opinion is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When will you get that you are not the expert opinion, and that no one here takes you seriously because your posting makes absolutely zero sense for UWE as a company, player individuality, and long-term enjoyment.
You hate black armor, UWE has black armor in the game. You hate achievements, UWE has achievements in the game.
Are you seeing a trend? You obviously do not get what pieces of content developers can make in this day and age fun for the consumer. It's been proven time and time again people love achievements and they vest more in things with them. People also love the ability to be recognized for their contributions, or just have cool stuff.
Your "expert opinion" elitism is literally a joke, Renegade. And you have been warned before about your behavior here. You literally do nothing to add to this forum with your argumentation over systems already implemented that 99% of people aside from yourself agree that they are beneficial.
Comments
/adjusts monocle<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol :D
A hat's a hat. Whether you're wearing a beret because you supported L$D2, or earbuds because you bought TF2 on Mac, or black armour because you bought SE. A hat is a hat.
<!--quoteo(post=1779346:date=Jul 15 2010, 06:53 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 15 2010, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it matter really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it cheapens the game with gimmickry. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for customization, but that's what armslab is for and WOW mods and mp_consistency 0. I'm just waiting to see the reaction when SE's have their black armour mp_consistency checked and/or disabled server-side.
Honestly now... do you actually think people purchased TF2 on a mac, or L4D2 or Sam & Max because they wanted the exclusive hat?
I pre-ordered L4D2 because I was a huge fan of the original, and that unlocked Bill's hat for me in Team Fortress 2 which to me felt like a "thank you" from the developer. I really don't see how this is bad for PC gaming, it's purely cosmetic and optional. If you don't want to mess with hats in TF2, you don't have to and this doesn't diminish the gameplay at all.
Yes.
I guess I should have worded it differently. There will always be people making purchases that to most seem unjustified or outright stupid. I really doubt that the amount of players that did so was significant.
<!--quoteo(post=1779408:date=Jul 15 2010, 10:40 PM:name=ZimbuTheMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZimbuTheMonkey @ Jul 15 2010, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly now... do you actually think people purchased TF2 on a mac, or L4D2 or Sam & Max because they wanted the exclusive hat?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you've been around you learn the true nature of the beast, you learn that people simply logon to a mac machine to gain the buds, not re-purchase it, you learn that idle server exists, and in the thousands, you learn that BF2 players merely borrow SF accounts to gain the unlocks, you learn that sprite files are changed for the tiniest of detail, yes you learn all of this, that skulks will be pink if given the chance and armour being black is no less gimmickry or disruptive. You ask me if I think it? no. I know it. Because I've seen it all before, being done and doing it myself. I've been to the depths and back, so when you ask does it cheapen it, do we need to ask it again when we've seen this exactly happen in every game with unlocks and hats?
And when you claim it's exactly the same game, then I know you weren't there. You weren't there for pink skulks, because that's NS with pink on top right? You weren't there for red dot crosshairs and sprite changes, because it's exactly the same game right? You weren't there for hit-box-sized models, and you weren't there for r_drawviewmodel. The newcomers may laugh at what is perceived to be inconsequential, yet the experienced who know what gameplay looks like at the highest levels of this game do not laugh when so much as a pre-match screenshot is returned to them with even a single pixel out-of-place.
And when you claim it's exactly the same game, then I know you weren't there. You weren't there for pink skulks, because that's NS with pink on top right? You weren't there for red dot crosshairs and sprite changes, because it's exactly the same game right? You weren't there for hit-box-sized models, and you weren't there for r_drawviewmodel. The newcomers may laugh at what is perceived to be inconsequential, yet the experienced who know what gameplay looks like at the highest levels of this game do not laugh when so much as a pre-match screenshot is returned to them with even a single pixel out-of-place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus... You just blew my mind...
You really need to calm down dude, it's not that serious. We're all just playing video games, some people enjoy them differently than you do.
I don't understand what the problem is with 99% of the atrocities you just listed. And I've been around for a long time, obviously not in the NS community but I'm an old ass PC gamer as well. But I guess that makes me part of the problem.
EDIT: To be more precise, if it helps you cheat or gain an unfair advantage over other players in a multiplayer game, that's where I start having problems with it.
Oh no, we don't want the ugly truth to come out! Someone call the pentagon, we need this suppressed, stat! We can't have folks going around with all sorts of crazy ideas and truths and hats!
Hi. I'm Saxony. And I'm a black armoraholic. I DID IT FOR THE BLACK ARMOR!!!
*sobs*
Even still, I haven't been around NS for very long, but a little Googling has confirmed for me that a lot of the things you listed are client-side hacks. These things aren't meant to be in the game and there has been a lot of progress to ensure that such hacks are not usable. Any decent server will force the client to use the same files as the server. At that point it's just a matter of picking the right one. Then you'll only have the official deviations from the norm. The ones that are usually designed to avoid their impact on gameplay. If in the end you still can't hack it because some people paid a little more for a change of colour, then you're out of luck.
Also, have you considered that about 90% of the people here paid for that black armor and maybe, just <i>maybe</i>, they don't appreciate you telling them what is and is not a valid way to spend their hard-earned cash.
From what I've read in a few posts, Renegade does not have a problem with those that have purchased the Special Edition, only those that have purchased it fully or partly because of the black armour.
I bought sudoku...it actually is a very nice game
and I bought the bigger package...because they do good work
and i think they get a better cut at this point.
Oh and I did it for the black armor.
The Black armor will be interesting if this takes off.
Then they will be not common.
A new player would say "What upgrade is that."
and someone would say..."That's just the first drop...they have been here ...before the beginning"
It's pretty clearly not a case of selling an extra skin for $20; rather, they're asking for people to give them extra support so they can actually finish the game, and then doing what they can to show their appreciation in small ways. I doubt a black recolor with some cute goggles set them back a whole lot in production and they were gonna have to playtest Alpha one way or another.
Back in the old days I remember visits to 'mp_consistency 0' servers to be chaos, with anything from mario models to Marshmallow running around, and not being able to work out exactly who was on your team lol
It's pretty clearly not a case of selling an extra skin for $20; rather, they're asking for people to give them extra support so they can actually finish the game, and then doing what they can to show their appreciation in small ways. I doubt a black recolor with some cute goggles set them back a whole lot in production and they were gonna have to playtest Alpha one way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this sums up most of my views, although I've got the SE bought.
The thing that bothers me with most of the DLC is that a lot of it seems to be just completely random content that affects the game here and there without any clearly designed logic, style or purpose. I know the changes are small and the actual effect to your experience usually remains positive, but I still prefer to play my games as one definite and accurately designed product with clear choise of style in both artistic and gameplay design. Meanwhile I dislike games that have some kind of obscure, little core game which then gets decorated with all kinds of glimmery stuff.
Black armor is still within boundaries in my opinion. It's still a very clear and yet subtle, carefully thought out design with a clear purpose. If they added 5 more armors, weird 10% boost to player score and an ability to shoot fireworks on readyroom, I'd be against it.
P.S. I've got nothing against the NS1 fireworks plugin, but I'd rather not have it in the core product :)
And when you claim it's exactly the same game, then I know you weren't there. You weren't there for pink skulks, because that's NS with pink on top right? You weren't there for red dot crosshairs and sprite changes, because it's exactly the same game right? You weren't there for hit-box-sized models, and you weren't there for r_drawviewmodel. The newcomers may laugh at what is perceived to be inconsequential, yet the experienced who know what gameplay looks like at the highest levels of this game do not laugh when so much as a pre-match screenshot is returned to them with even a single pixel out-of-place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what is your point exactly? Are you against hats because they bring nothing to the game apart from costing resources that could be better spent? Or are you against hats because they're against your vision of competitive gaming?
If it's the first, then so far the black armor has probably generated a lot of income. They're not making models as a game feature, it's just one single shot to thank those who have been supporting them for so long. Some have bought SE for Alpha, some for the gratitude, some for the black skin. It all comes to the same: 40 extra bucks for UWE. UWE aren't going to feel all fuzzy inside and think you're the better person because anyone claims that they bought the SE for the right reason, or look at you sideways because you spent 20 bucks for a model.
If it's the second, then I think you need to cool down. You're comparing a model developed by UWE with pink skins, whitewalls and drawviewmodel 0. The term red herring comes to mind. But even so, I'm sure that if your overly sensitive competitive reflexes will be thrown off balance by something like the color of a skin and nv goggles sitting on a model's head, then they will be left out of consistency check.
That being said, I truly wonder how exactly you figure I lack experience at this game. I have seen all this game has to offer, and I've settled exactly where I felt comfortable. It's not because I don't want to be on the competitive edge that I am any less experienced (striking as it might seem to you, many feel that the highest levels of the game aren't the most fun). It would seem to me that for you, competitive players hold the absolute truth, and as such everyone else just didn't get to see the game. I've certainly played NS1 for as long as most here, I've wasted too much time on this game. I know what I'm talking about.
All in all, Bacillus pretty much says it right: DLC is bothersome when it becomes a commercial model. Where you're actually expected to spend extra money every so often to be on par, even if the DLC doesn't make sense. One armor as part of a thank you gift seems reasonable.
About 9000 people have pre-ordered the SE. When NS2 finally goes gold, I think it will have a lot more players than that. So, no, black will not be the dominant color.
It is, many kids bought the game for the armor, or illusion of helping / thanking uwe, alpha release or anything like that theres no need justify your choice to everyone.
How exactly is paying UWE $40 an illusion of helping them?
There's that "k-word" again. Why are you guys so elitist? Being older or having more experience in the sacred hobby of video gaming does not make you superior. Neither does spending money on things that YOU consider appropriate.
What exactly is the problem with people that want to spend 20 dollars for armor? Are they breaking the game? How are they making it less enjoyable for YOU? You may think it is a senseless waste of 20 dollars, but last time I checked you aren't their financial advisors. I mean do you people go around your neighborhood gossiping about neighbors that made a purchase you deem to be too extravagant or useless?
You are right about one thing though, there's no need to justify your decision. Because it's no one's business but your own, it's between the individual and the company they are getting the product/service from.
None of what you listed apply, though I will say dev-sanctioned white walls do not make it any less a hack. What I am against is gimmicks. Tokens for support are fine, gimmicks that appear in game are not. See the response below for why I figure you lack experience, or rather when I hear responses that pink skulks and r_drawviewmodel are inconsequential.
<!--quoteo(post=1779802:date=Jul 16 2010, 04:07 PM:name=ZimbuTheMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZimbuTheMonkey @ Jul 16 2010, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1779802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's that "k-word" again. Why are you guys so elitist? Being older or having more experience in the sacred hobby of video gaming does not make you superior. Neither does spending money on things that YOU consider appropriate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is a lesson in every domain: the expert opinion trumps that of the average consumer, yet is balanced by majority opinion. Why does the professor feel his opinion is superior to the layman? Why the formula racer to the novice driver? Or the general to a recruit? We've seen what you've seen and more, the converse is not true, for this reason our opinion is more educated. You and others may not see a problem with r_drawviewmodel or custom sprites, but that is because you never achieved a level of play where it mattered. Those who have, have not only achieved your level, but far surpassed, thus their experience <b>engulfs</b> yours and is superior for that reason. Ask yourself the question who was responsible for discovering the exploits in r_drawviewmodel, pink skulks, custom textures, and so forth? Not the pubbers, because according to them it has no effect right?
Gimmicks that are present within gameplay (no matter their impact) have no business being in any respected game, and it breaks my heart to see one of my most highly-respected games of all time - earned not in graphics or hype but sheer gameplay genius - denigrate itself with cheap gimmickry.
As if the list of reasons I have given were not long enough, and if I have already not shown the DIFBA count to be shamefully longer than most claim, then I leave you with yet another disheartening realization:
Those of you who were around for NS 1.0 will recall the endless marine stacking from the influx of those (mostly CS nubs) whose only skill was "point-and-shoot". Now add this same influx for NS2, but tenfold this number for every generic FPS flooding the market with shooter noobers. Again tenfold this, as NS2 (unlike NS) claims to cater to this wider audience. <b>And for the finale</b>, tenfold it once more because of the ultimate incentive: that <u>only marines</u> may show off their hats. Gimmicks, it's what they're good for.
Not really bothered whether or not anyone else uses it though, it'd look quite nice as a standard armor variant, having all the marines look slightly different is nice, black armor would go well with jetpacks and exoskeletons to vary the marine look a bit.
Your example of racecar drivers isn't quite applicable, there are worlds of difference between everyday driving and race driving. Higher competitive circles do not engulf lower levels of play, they replace their values. What someone might feel as critical to the gaming experience, the competitive spirit will toss aside because they find it bothersome (examples would be shadows for NS, or onboard soundsystems for a car). Conversely, something that is essential to the game flow, such as timings, will eventually pass relatively unnoticed to the average newcomer.
Besides, you have such a lowly opinion of pub players that you obviously show how much you've lost perspective. Pubbers aren't retards, we still can see why whitewalls and pink skulks are disruptive to gameplay.
What you fail to see is that possibilities are not necessities. The competitive crowd WILL spend time to tune the game to a set of rules. The average Joe will install and run the game.
All that being said, I don't think you've understood at all where I stand. Yes, I think black armor is a great idea. Is that why I've purchased SE? Not at all. I just find that it does what it's meant to do, that is to say, bring money to UWE for a reasonable amount of work, while not being the key feature of the game. I think they've learned with the Veteran program that adding multiple easy-to-get gimmicks are NOT a good idea.
Besides I did play NS1 quite a lot, and I would like to see more UWE games made.
The analogy is so inappropriate, how can you even make it seriously? Do you re-read what you type? You sound like an egomaniac. And on top of that, my question wasn't even addressed. Are you saying that superior experience, education and/or skill justifies being elitist towards those that don't have the same experience, education and/or skill?
So to recap:
Your opinion is more educated = Correct
Your experience "engulfs" mine = Correct
A professor feels his opinion is superior to the layman = Stop projecting (thankfully not all professors are this arrogant)
Not to say that an expert's opinion is not more valuable or relevant, because it is. But once again I have to repeat: You are playing a video game, hotshot. You are at a 10 right now and you should bring it down to, say, 4 or something.
You keep referring to pink skulks, custom textures and r_drawviewmodel, and you are the only one. I've seen you toss out this red herring about 5 times now and I've just been a member of these forums for about four days. These are exploits, I've specifically spoken out against exploits and others would no-doubt do the same. Tell me again how achievements and black armor are considered exploits? Or is it the fact that the purchaser's intention is to get black armor considered the exploit?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gimmicks that are present within gameplay (no matter their impact) have no business being in any respected game, and it breaks my heart to see one of my most highly-respected games of all time - earned not in graphics or hype but sheer gameplay genius - denigrate itself with cheap gimmickry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, it's a video game. Just relax. I understand the hobby is important to you, it is to me as well, but let's not get so obsessed where you lose sight of the fun. The black armor is a gimmick, sure we can agree on that. But so what? How does it denigrate this game? Will the gameplay suffer? Is there no more strategic depth because of the armor?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those of you who were around for NS 1.0 will recall the endless marine stacking from the influx of those (mostly CS nubs) whose only skill was "point-and-shoot". Now add this same influx for NS2, but tenfold this number for every generic FPS flooding the market with shooter noobers. Again tenfold this, as NS2 (unlike NS) claims to cater to this wider audience. And for the finale, tenfold it once more because of the ultimate incentive: that only marines may show off their hats. Gimmicks, it's what they're good for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then don't play with those awful, awful CS nubs. As the community and servers mature, you will obviously find one with admins and settings that best suit your style of gameplay. Why is this even an issue? You just don't want those unwashed and unenlightened peasants even touching your hallowed game, huh?
I can't stand elitists. You just want everyone to think like you because you feel your opinions are the most "superior" and that they should "engulf" that of the others.
When will you get that you are not the expert opinion, and that no one here takes you seriously because your posting makes absolutely zero sense for UWE as a company, player individuality, and long-term enjoyment.
You hate black armor, UWE has black armor in the game.
You hate achievements, UWE has achievements in the game.
Are you seeing a trend? You obviously do not get what pieces of content developers can make in this day and age fun for the consumer. It's been proven time and time again people love achievements and they vest more in things with them. People also love the ability to be recognized for their contributions, or just have cool stuff.
Your "expert opinion" elitism is literally a joke, Renegade. And you have been warned before about your behavior here. You literally do nothing to add to this forum with your argumentation over systems already implemented that 99% of people aside from yourself agree that they are beneficial.