<!--QuoteBegin--littlewild+Dec 4 2002, 11:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (littlewild @ Dec 4 2002, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Preventing the 2nd hive from being built is the best strategy and it should be the marine team's focus. IMHO, phase gates that are placed within the vicinty of a hive is an excellent way to get rid of a morphing hive, if you get rid of the 2nd hive before it is built, you have a much better chance against the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When this game gets to the point that aliens consistently lose before they even get a second hive up, I will just quit. What's the point of playing at all if it's over in 5 minutes? Luckily this rarely happens on the servers I play on (14-16 players).
As for your mixed arms rebuttle, be aware that my post addressed the commanders who equip an entire team with HA + HMGs. A team of mixed arms will cost less resources than that.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin--JooJooFlop+Dec 4 2002, 02:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JooJooFlop @ Dec 4 2002, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless maybe your commander is a total moron who never upgraded anything, 2 hives for aliens no longer mean a win for them. Fades die pretty easily now that carapace has been fixed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> fades die in 73 lmg bullets instead of 75 with carpace fixed...
<!--QuoteBegin--HavoK+Dec 4 2002, 11:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HavoK @ Dec 4 2002, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--littlewild+Dec 4 2002, 11:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (littlewild @ Dec 4 2002, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Preventing the 2nd hive from being built is the best strategy and it should be the marine team's focus. IMHO, phase gates that are placed within the vicinty of a hive is an excellent way to get rid of a morphing hive, if you get rid of the 2nd hive before it is built, you have a much better chance against the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When this game gets to the point that aliens consistently lose before they even get a second hive up, I will just quit. What's the point of playing at all if it's over in 5 minutes? Luckily this rarely happens on the servers I play on (14-16 players).
As for your mixed arms rebuttle, be aware that my post addressed the commanders who equip an entire team with HA + HMGs. A team of mixed arms will cost less resources than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then the 2 hive gg phenomenon must have been a rare sight on the server you play on. Say where do you play? IP address so I can pop in one day to see how you marines push back 2 hive aliens?
Pub server yah?
Oh the second hive can go up, but you have to take it down before half the alien team morph into fades. It is ok if you destroy the hive if it is morphing, it is totally another thing to let the aliens have the 2 hives for the next half of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--littlewild+Dec 4 2002, 11:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (littlewild @ Dec 4 2002, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then the 2 hive gg phenomenon must have been a rare sight on the server you play on. Say where do you play? IP address so I can pop in one day to see how you marines push back 2 hive aliens?
Pub server yah?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I almost always play on the LaggyServer servers. And yes, they are pub servers. If lots of newb marines are on, then yes they will get destroyed by fades. Or if one of our good commanders is playing, [Ironshirt]Alucard for instance, then a newbie alien team will get annihilated often before second hive.
But if lots of the regulars are on, it will usually be a good match.
When playing, I will often hear "they have fades", which signals the beginning of the mid-game. Hopefully the marines have upgraded weapons (and/or armor), and are trying for a hive. Fades start attacking outposts, and it starts getting fun (poor commander). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bad teams you hear "Oh crap they have fades. Let's quit". And generally, you might as well do so, especially if you don't have upgrades yet.
If marines would grow some balls and realize they need to rush Fades instead of trying to out gun them by playing peek-a-boo (yeah... bright idea there... a 60 damage splash weapon vs. your pop-gun) you'd see a lot less Fade only wins. Hell, I've ambushed a Fade and killed him before he even realized what happened as a LMG/LA Marine. Wait until they fire those three Acid Rockets at a turret... then rush em! Sure, you might die... but if you're a LMG/LA marine, it didn't cost you anything. And if you or your buddy (you DO have a buddy... right?) take the Fade down, that's a 44+ resource exchange in your favor. Suck it up! Don't be a wussy! Your job is NOT to survive... it is for your team to WIN! Do what is necessary and you will experience the rush of taking down a Fade as a non-upgraded marine more often than you think.
If the marines hold 1 hive and still loose the game then this can mean only one thing, they suck. Aliens without 3 hives have no chance to take out a GOOD (<=that is the problem :o) marine defense. They simply have no effective way to take out structures. No onos and no bilebomb (which is still bugged). Which leaves skulk chomp (if he can do more than 3 comps without dying you do something wrong), lerk needles (if you dont manage to kill the lerk in the 30 min it needs to take out a turret you do something wrong), lerk bite (he might get a few more bites off because of umbra but still wont get down a turret), fade acid rocket (4 shots, then reload phase of at least 7 sec, thats with adrenaline 3. If you cant weld the damaged turret in this time you do something wrong), fade swipe (might be able to take down 1 turret but dies while doing so. Means marines loose 19 rp, aliens 48 rp), fade swipe with lerk umbra backup (lets say they can take out 3 turrets before you take out the lerk and seconds later the fade, means 85 lost rp for aliens, 57 lost rp for marines).
<!--QuoteBegin--Beetlejuice+Dec 5 2002, 12:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beetlejuice @ Dec 5 2002, 12:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the marines hold 1 hive and still loose the game then this can mean only one thing, they suck. Aliens without 3 hives have no chance to take out a GOOD (<=that is the problem :o) marine defense. They simply have no effective way to take out structures. No onos and no bilebomb (which is still bugged). Which leaves skulk chomp (if he can do more than 3 comps without dying you do something wrong), lerk needles (if you dont manage to kill the lerk in the 30 min it needs to take out a turret you do something wrong), lerk bite (he might get a few more bites off because of umbra but still wont get down a turret), fade acid rocket (4 shots, then reload phase of at least 7 sec, thats with adrenaline 3. If you cant weld the damaged turret in this time you do something wrong), fade swipe (might be able to take down 1 turret but dies while doing so. Means marines loose 19 rp, aliens 48 rp), fade swipe with lerk umbra backup (lets say they can take out 3 turrets before you take out the lerk and seconds later the fade, means 85 lost rp for aliens, 57 lost rp for marines).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm to think a fade will die after taking out one turrect is extremely optimistic. Most of the time a single fade will take down your entire defense installation (3 turrects + tf) and live to do it again without marine intervention. Personally I have done the above as a fade with regeneration. circle strafe the turrect and destroy, run and hide to regen, rinse and repeat.
Sure the fades won't be able to take down your base in one swift attack, but once they have more than 2-3 fades, the marine death timer begins ticking as you watch your res nodes and outposts get creamed.
And I think it is time for me to refresh the link to the article. <a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml</a>
Go read it if you have the time, it echos much of my thoughts but is relavant to clan matches only. If this is the norm for clan matches as well as on pub servers, then it is time to pay a closer look.
It is easier for the kharaa to win with 2 hives under their possesion, BUT the game isnt over if the marine team with their comm know what they are doing, and what they need to do in order to take a hive back asap. There are too many tactics that both teams can perform, I personally believe the game is too young, for us ( the game players) to say what tactic is best or which is worse. Ive been in too many pubs and have seen a lot of tactics by both teams, some worked some didnt. NS to me is a game of a lot of possibilities <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--truee+Dec 5 2002, 01:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (truee @ Dec 5 2002, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is easier for the kharaa to win with 2 hives under their possesion, BUT the game isnt over if the marine team with their comm know what they are doing, and what they need to do in order to take a hive back asap. There are too many tactics that both teams can perform, I personally believe the game is too young, for us ( the game players) to say what tactic is best or which is worse. Ive been in too many pubs and have seen a lot of tactics by both teams, some worked some didnt. NS to me is a game of a lot of possibilities <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you. It is just worrying to see that the pub servers that I have been on suffer from the stated problem. And that I don't seem to be the only one observing it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Erm to think a fade will die after taking out one turrect is extremely optimistic. Most of the time a single fade will take down your entire defense installation (3 turrects + tf) and live to do it again without marine intervention. Personally I have done the above as a fade with regeneration. circle strafe the turrect and destroy, run and hide to regen, rinse and repeat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you capture a hive only to put 1 tf and 3 turrets there and then abandon it you might rethink your strategy. Its about as stupid as aliens defending their hive with 3 off chambers and a def chamber and then go for a walk when hmg/gl marines stand in front of it.
And i read the article, let me quote one passage which shows pretty good that the author obvioulsy plays another game than the rest of us:
"Even if the marines are able to bring down one hive after the alien team is composed of fades and lerks the aliens will still have a 95% chance of winning."
So he is talking about aliens have a 95% chance of winning when they have only 1 hive left and all of them are evolved lerk/fade. I think i dont even have to comment this. All you have to do now is take out the lerks/fades and get the last hive. And taking out lerks/fades without umbra and blink (only 1 hive left, you remember?) should not be to hard. Even with umbra it should not be to hard since on an alien team of lets say 8 players, half of them now fades and half of them lerks this would mean they have AT LEAST spent 504 rp (thats 1 hive, 4 fades and 4 lerks with upgrade and the 6 upgrade chambers, no hive defense, no resource chambers etc). So at this part of the game the commander SHOULD eventually be able to equip 2 guys with ha/hmg and welder and they will take out any fade/lerk with ease.
Cast: Marine commander: Morgan Freeman Marines: tommy lee jones et al. HA/HMG marine: Arnie & co. Jetpack marine: hollywood hearthrob of the year. Welder marine: cute chick, has a thing for jetpack, but falls for arnie and follows him around
Gorge: 40-something brit [optional fake german/russian accent] Skulk: unknown extras, with fake russian accents and uzis. Lerk: some swedish chick. Fade: japanese kung-fu guy. Onos: A weightlifter with a real german accent and bad teeth.
The plot: The 'bad guys' already have a plan for world domination. The 'good guys' find out, and have to kill them all before "time runs out".
The good guys hunt down the bad guys, avoiding the traps/ambushes, and eventually make it to the real base hidden in a swiss mountain and destroy the big bomb.
90-minutes of gratuitious violence. Certificate 41.
---
The marines will win or lose the game. It's up to them. The plot revolves around the marines. The aliens only 'appear' in scenes where the marines try to do something important, and attempt to stop the marines from doing it. There is no separate plot involving the aliens - they are just 'there'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you capture a hive only to put 1 tf and 3 turrets there and then abandon it you might rethink your strategy. Its about as stupid as aliens defending their hive with 3 off chambers and a def chamber and then go for a walk when hmg/gl marines stand in front of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fact is, you simply don't have the time/res to turrect farm the hive you have got. Assuming you rush for an empty hive right off from the start, you probably won't have enough res for a tf + 3 turrects at the empty hive. You will need more res points. 2ndly, there is no point turrect farming only to get the tf wiped out by a lerk and then it is all gone. You will need phase gates to get your marines to support the captured hive.
Now if you sit down and do your calculations, you will realize that the marine team does not have enough res to capture 2 hives and turrect farm them and get the phase gates up. The observatory and the 3 phase gates required will already cost you 85 resources, and depending on the amount of defense you decide to invest in at the main base, your captured hives will be affected accordingly.
Of course I am not saying it is not possible to capture 2 hives. I am just saying that in order to do it right off the start of the game is extremely difficult. I managed to do it NS_Caged once. Only that I skipped the compulsory TF in the main marine spawn and got 1 or 2 marine(plug: [S]-fleshy did a really good job) to defend the base while the rest rushed to secure the empty hives. I am very sure that with one res node in the early game, you only have barely enough to set up a minimum defense of 3 turrects + a TF at the hive after you build 2 infantry portals and armoury at the base.
In short, even if you manage to set up an impregnable defense at one hive, it simply means that the aliens have probably gotten the other hive as well if they are worth their salt. And then you have to worry about fades.
Once I spam the comm for some more HA and another HMG! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Perhaps the author of that article was writing that about v1.01, where it *was* particularly difficult to win after the point where you first saw a Fade or Acid Kill. As it stands now, it really isn't an impossible problem for Marines to win a game at the two-hive point, unless they have a STUPID Commander who has been wasting resources handing out HA/HMG in the mid-early game, instead of using the Arms Lab to upgrade EVERYONE's weapons/armor at once.
Locking down one Hive in the early game *is* essential. Preferably a non-occupied Hive, as trying to take an occupied one and failing (or succeeding when they already have a second one up, or being delayed in your attack until the second one comes up) is a large waste of time and resources that could otherwise be spent _much_ more effectively in taking down a weaker section of the Alien defense, bottling them in, or 'slicing' the map with turrets if you have the RP.
<b>Carapace has not been fixed</b>. Some people tested Carapace in v1.02, and re-tested it in v1.03, and it is <b>exactly the same as before</b>. Fades still take 75 LMG shots to kill with carapace, compared to 29 shots without.
Sadly the case now is...most marines...newbies and average players, get very scared of fades and will most of the time camp out at the base. This allows the alien teams the option of wandering the map and taking everything over. This means that soon enough the commander will be broke and have no money to give out those HA suits and nice shny HMG's that the troops need. So while the troops whine more and more about gear the aliens are taking back that third hive no one is defending. This just happened to me the other day.
Sadly the game, for the aliens, really sucks if you don't at least have two hives up. For the marines, who do not have HMGs's or HA....the game sucks against fades. Sadly...if the aliens have fades...all is not lost...work together, listen to your commanders plan...keep moving. More and more it would be easy for me as a commander to stop, siege a hive in only a few minutes and suddenly...no more fades. However getting that done requires teamwork and effectiveness that i don't see much in some servers.
<!--QuoteBegin--littlewild+Dec 5 2002, 11:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (littlewild @ Dec 5 2002, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you capture a hive only to put 1 tf and 3 turrets there and then abandon it you might rethink your strategy. Its about as stupid as aliens defending their hive with 3 off chambers and a def chamber and then go for a walk when hmg/gl marines stand in front of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fact is, you simply don't have the time/res to turrect farm the hive you have got. Assuming you rush for an empty hive right off from the start, you probably won't have enough res for a tf + 3 turrects at the empty hive. You will need more res points. 2ndly, there is no point turrect farming only to get the tf wiped out by a lerk and then it is all gone. You will need phase gates to get your marines to support the captured hive.
Now if you sit down and do your calculations, you will realize that the marine team does not have enough res to capture 2 hives and turrect farm them and get the phase gates up. The observatory and the 3 phase gates required will already cost you 85 resources, and depending on the amount of defense you decide to invest in at the main base, your captured hives will be affected accordingly.
Of course I am not saying it is not possible to capture 2 hives. I am just saying that in order to do it right off the start of the game is extremely difficult. I managed to do it NS_Caged once. Only that I skipped the compulsory TF in the main marine spawn and got 1 or 2 marine(plug: [S]-fleshy did a really good job) to defend the base while the rest rushed to secure the empty hives. I am very sure that with one res node in the early game, you only have barely enough to set up a minimum defense of 3 turrects + a TF at the hive after you build 2 infantry portals and armoury at the base.
In short, even if you manage to set up an impregnable defense at one hive, it simply means that the aliens have probably gotten the other hive as well if they are worth their salt. And then you have to worry about fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, thats some really confusing stuff. I am not sure if we speak the same language. I never said anything about turretfarming one hive right at game start (not necessary, against skulks a few marines can easily defend it) nor did i say anything about capturing 2 hives right at start of the game. All i said is by the time the aliens can get the fades you fear so much (which means they spent AT LEAST 504 rp for 8 players, half fades, half lerks, completely no defense at both hives) you have plenty of resources and even more time to defend your one hive that you captured. And then those allmighty fades wont have a chance to get the third hive because without bilebomb and onos it is impossible to take out a medicore defended marine base with 1 or 2 marines in it.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Not impossible. Difficult, but not impossible. Just aim for the Marines and Phase Gate (if present) first. Non-HA will go down in one Acid Rocket barrage. Phase will take a little longer, but will also buy you time without Marines warping in. A massive turret farm is MUCH more of a problem, honestly. THAT at least you have to whittle down to death, one at a time, until you can get the turret factory into view. However, having a Fade/Lerk/Gorge team there will make things much easier to deal with. Everybody hides behind the Fade, slowly advances. Gorge constantly Healing Sprays, Lerk constantly Umbras. Slash becomes useful, and the method of taking down Marines trying to save it has already been discussed. However, it requires TEAMWORK. Something that a lot of pubbing Aliens don't ascribe to, other than 'guard the Gorge', 'everybody rush now' or 'save the Hive!'
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Carapace has not been fixed. Some people tested Carapace in v1.02, and re-tested it in v1.03, and it is exactly the same as before. Fades still take 75 LMG shots to kill with carapace, compared to 29 shots without. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carapace HAS been fixed (just tested it). Maybe just not the way you expected it to get fixed. The bug on carapace was that it gave the alien a 10%/20%/30% dmg negation even when all armor was down. THIS has been fixed. The dmg negation when having armor left is still there. And since a fully healed and armored fade runs out of hp faster than out of armor it does not make a difference for him (unless he gets shot down and then only heals hp and not armor).
Yeah it's usually two hives for aliens and marines are down.
But the arguments presented in the article don't really work out.. i've seen talented lerks do a tremendous amount of dmg with only one hive.
I played in a game last night where the aliens got two hives and we had one of theirs pretty well down.. they got fades.. but we also had fully upgraded weapons and no armor. This makes a HUGE difference in fighting fades as a marine. Because even the lmg marine can do a decent amount of dmg to fades. We had two teams, a pair defending the hive with a grenade launcher. Another rant, people don't use grenade launchers enough is about the best way to describe them. Where fades can hit you around the corner with splash dmg. I can hit them all the way down the hall with explosions, around the corner and i don't even have to be looking in their direction after i fire it. So I was in the hive team with a Gl and another marine with a hmg to take care of any close up beasties. It was close, we would die and our turret farm at the entrance to sat array would go down to 3 or 4 turrets. But grenades turned it around fast for us there. We were able to hold it.
Since the fades were attacking sat array we had another team of 4 heavies attacking unnamed. Eventually they fought their way in and secured it...you can guess where the game went from there.This is an exception to the rule, we had some really good players who knew the importance of staying together and welding as heavies. Our comm was right on top of things as well.
It seems to me that people want the game balanced for medicore marines/comm to be able to win. That's crap. The game is really balanced right now. A team of teamworking players on either side will win no matter what, sometimes all the good players end up on the same team and slaughter the other. It's a bit more needle in the haystack for marines with good comm's.. but that's the way it goes. One thing this shambler article fails to portray is the skill level of players, and how much that goes into balancing a game.
One of the problems is alot of the average-lame commanders wait to upgrade stuff til the aliens have fades which is **extemely stupid** also they spend too much time fortifing bases at the begining.
Normally what I will do is build 2 infs a armory, a tf and atmost 3 turrets to cover the marine structures in the beginning. Then have the marines move out to a hive right away, except 1 or 2. get up an observatory as you capture a hive and set up phase gates asap. The Hive usually only takes a few turrets to cover while the aliens still only have skulks. The next goal should be to cap a few res nodes and upgrade the armory get a weapon and armor upgrades, and usually you will be able to hand out a few HA, HMGs at around the time you see the 1st fades.
Then you can fortify you bases more.
I have been in several games where the aliens and marines were basically in a draw when marines had HA, HMG and aliens fades and whatnot. So the game imo is balanced. The problem is the players not the game.
I would certainly agree with my collegues who suggest that when the aliens have 2 hives, the most interesting games result. If the aliens do not get a second hive quickly, a marine win is almost always assured (unless the grunts can't shoot strainght or the cdr is an idiot, two conditions that often exist on public servers).
If the marines try to overly fortify their base at the start and don't sprint for a vacant hive, they are doomed. The bile bombs and onos will eventually show up and destroy everything. An example is the game I played last night: myself and another marine sprinted to a hive, killed a couple of skulks that happened by (I love shootin' them dawgs...) and then we begged the cdr to warp in some fortifications. He was busy building up our base, so after several minutes of vain requests for a turfac, some sentires, and maybe a seige cannon, we gave up and moved on. Sure enough, the aliens wasted no time in dropping a hive in, and we had to take the hive later at great cost and effort.
The home base can easily be defended by two guys who can shoot halfways decent and are not too prima-donna to support the team by staying home for a while. The rest of the team can then quickly get a hive, have great fun fighting for the second hive as upgrades become available, and then waste the third hive with HMG, HA, and seige cannons during the end-game phase.
This is not rocket science. The marines just have to be coordinated. Dear friends - please stop trying to be Rambo. A lone marine is dogfood. Three marines working together are a formidable force, even in spawn gear. Stop whining for shotguns - three LMGs will eat a fade no problem. My favourite advice to marines is stop worrying about how many kills you get - concentrate on how many wins you get.
Marine priorities should be (1) Get hives, (2) Hold hives, (3) End alien lives.
Comments
When this game gets to the point that aliens consistently lose before they even get a second hive up, I will just quit. What's the point of playing at all if it's over in 5 minutes? Luckily this rarely happens on the servers I play on (14-16 players).
As for your mixed arms rebuttle, be aware that my post addressed the commanders who equip an entire team with HA + HMGs. A team of mixed arms will cost less resources than that.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fades die in 73 lmg bullets instead of 75 with carpace fixed...
When this game gets to the point that aliens consistently lose before they even get a second hive up, I will just quit. What's the point of playing at all if it's over in 5 minutes? Luckily this rarely happens on the servers I play on (14-16 players).
As for your mixed arms rebuttle, be aware that my post addressed the commanders who equip an entire team with HA + HMGs. A team of mixed arms will cost less resources than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the 2 hive gg phenomenon must have been a rare sight on the server you play on. Say where do you play? IP address so I can pop in one day to see how you marines push back 2 hive aliens?
Pub server yah?
Oh the second hive can go up, but you have to take it down before half the alien team morph into fades. It is ok if you destroy the hive if it is morphing, it is totally another thing to let the aliens have the 2 hives for the next half of the game.
Pub server yah?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I almost always play on the LaggyServer servers. And yes, they are pub servers. If lots of newb marines are on, then yes they will get destroyed by fades. Or if one of our good commanders is playing, [Ironshirt]Alucard for instance, then a newbie alien team will get annihilated often before second hive.
But if lots of the regulars are on, it will usually be a good match.
When playing, I will often hear "they have fades", which signals the beginning of the mid-game. Hopefully the marines have upgraded weapons (and/or armor), and are trying for a hive. Fades start attacking outposts, and it starts getting fun (poor commander). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bad teams you hear "Oh crap they have fades. Let's quit". And generally, you might as well do so, especially if you don't have upgrades yet.
Erm to think a fade will die after taking out one turrect is extremely optimistic. Most of the time a single fade will take down your entire defense installation (3 turrects + tf) and live to do it again without marine intervention. Personally I have done the above as a fade with regeneration. circle strafe the turrect and destroy, run and hide to regen, rinse and repeat.
Sure the fades won't be able to take down your base in one swift attack, but once they have more than 2-3 fades, the marine death timer begins ticking as you watch your res nodes and outposts get creamed.
And I think it is time for me to refresh the link to the article.
<a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml</a>
Go read it if you have the time, it echos much of my thoughts but is relavant to clan matches only. If this is the norm for clan matches as well as on pub servers, then it is time to pay a closer look.
I agree with you. It is just worrying to see that the pub servers that I have been on suffer from the stated problem. And that I don't seem to be the only one observing it.
If you capture a hive only to put 1 tf and 3 turrets there and then abandon it you might rethink your strategy. Its about as stupid as aliens defending their hive with 3 off chambers and a def chamber and then go for a walk when hmg/gl marines stand in front of it.
And i read the article, let me quote one passage which shows pretty good that the author obvioulsy plays another game than the rest of us:
"Even if the marines are able to bring down one hive after the alien team is composed of fades and lerks the aliens will still have a 95% chance of winning."
So he is talking about aliens have a 95% chance of winning when they have only 1 hive left and all of them are evolved lerk/fade. I think i dont even have to comment this. All you have to do now is take out the lerks/fades and get the last hive. And taking out lerks/fades without umbra and blink (only 1 hive left, you remember?) should not be to hard. Even with umbra it should not be to hard since on an alien team of lets say 8 players, half of them now fades and half of them lerks this would mean they have AT LEAST spent 504 rp (thats 1 hive, 4 fades and 4 lerks with upgrade and the 6 upgrade chambers, no hive defense, no resource chambers etc). So at this part of the game the commander SHOULD eventually be able to equip 2 guys with ha/hmg and welder and they will take out any fade/lerk with ease.
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Cast:
Marine commander: Morgan Freeman
Marines: tommy lee jones et al.
HA/HMG marine: Arnie & co.
Jetpack marine: hollywood hearthrob of the year.
Welder marine: cute chick, has a thing for jetpack, but falls for arnie and follows him around
Gorge: 40-something brit [optional fake german/russian accent]
Skulk: unknown extras, with fake russian accents and uzis.
Lerk: some swedish chick.
Fade: japanese kung-fu guy.
Onos: A weightlifter with a real german accent and bad teeth.
The plot:
The 'bad guys' already have a plan for world domination.
The 'good guys' find out, and have to kill them all before "time runs out".
The good guys hunt down the bad guys, avoiding the traps/ambushes, and eventually make it to the real base hidden in a swiss mountain and destroy the big bomb.
90-minutes of gratuitious violence. Certificate 41.
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The marines will win or lose the game. It's up to them. The plot revolves around the marines. The aliens only 'appear' in scenes where the marines try to do something important, and attempt to stop the marines from doing it. There is no separate plot involving the aliens - they are just 'there'.
Fact is, you simply don't have the time/res to turrect farm the hive you have got. Assuming you rush for an empty hive right off from the start, you probably won't have enough res for a tf + 3 turrects at the empty hive. You will need more res points. 2ndly, there is no point turrect farming only to get the tf wiped out by a lerk and then it is all gone. You will need phase gates to get your marines to support the captured hive.
Now if you sit down and do your calculations, you will realize that the marine team does not have enough res to capture 2 hives and turrect farm them and get the phase gates up. The observatory and the 3 phase gates required will already cost you 85 resources, and depending on the amount of defense you decide to invest in at the main base, your captured hives will be affected accordingly.
Of course I am not saying it is not possible to capture 2 hives. I am just saying that in order to do it right off the start of the game is extremely difficult. I managed to do it NS_Caged once. Only that I skipped the compulsory TF in the main marine spawn and got 1 or 2 marine(plug: [S]-fleshy did a really good job) to defend the base while the rest rushed to secure the empty hives. I am very sure that with one res node in the early game, you only have barely enough to set up a minimum defense of 3 turrects + a TF at the hive after you build 2 infantry portals and armoury at the base.
In short, even if you manage to set up an impregnable defense at one hive, it simply means that the aliens have probably gotten the other hive as well if they are worth their salt. And then you have to worry about fades.
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I'll be back....................
Once I spam the comm for some more HA and another HMG! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Locking down one Hive in the early game *is* essential. Preferably a non-occupied Hive, as trying to take an occupied one and failing (or succeeding when they already have a second one up, or being delayed in your attack until the second one comes up) is a large waste of time and resources that could otherwise be spent _much_ more effectively in taking down a weaker section of the Alien defense, bottling them in, or 'slicing' the map with turrets if you have the RP.
Sadly the game, for the aliens, really sucks if you don't at least have two hives up. For the marines, who do not have HMGs's or HA....the game sucks against fades. Sadly...if the aliens have fades...all is not lost...work together, listen to your commanders plan...keep moving. More and more it would be easy for me as a commander to stop, siege a hive in only a few minutes and suddenly...no more fades. However getting that done requires teamwork and effectiveness that i don't see much in some servers.
Fact is, you simply don't have the time/res to turrect farm the hive you have got. Assuming you rush for an empty hive right off from the start, you probably won't have enough res for a tf + 3 turrects at the empty hive. You will need more res points. 2ndly, there is no point turrect farming only to get the tf wiped out by a lerk and then it is all gone. You will need phase gates to get your marines to support the captured hive.
Now if you sit down and do your calculations, you will realize that the marine team does not have enough res to capture 2 hives and turrect farm them and get the phase gates up. The observatory and the 3 phase gates required will already cost you 85 resources, and depending on the amount of defense you decide to invest in at the main base, your captured hives will be affected accordingly.
Of course I am not saying it is not possible to capture 2 hives. I am just saying that in order to do it right off the start of the game is extremely difficult. I managed to do it NS_Caged once. Only that I skipped the compulsory TF in the main marine spawn and got 1 or 2 marine(plug: [S]-fleshy did a really good job) to defend the base while the rest rushed to secure the empty hives. I am very sure that with one res node in the early game, you only have barely enough to set up a minimum defense of 3 turrects + a TF at the hive after you build 2 infantry portals and armoury at the base.
In short, even if you manage to set up an impregnable defense at one hive, it simply means that the aliens have probably gotten the other hive as well if they are worth their salt. And then you have to worry about fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, thats some really confusing stuff. I am not sure if we speak the same language. I never said anything about turretfarming one hive right at game start (not necessary, against skulks a few marines can easily defend it) nor did i say anything about capturing 2 hives right at start of the game.
All i said is by the time the aliens can get the fades you fear so much (which means they spent AT LEAST 504 rp for 8 players, half fades, half lerks, completely no defense at both hives) you have plenty of resources and even more time to defend your one hive that you captured. And then those allmighty fades wont have a chance to get the third hive because without bilebomb and onos it is impossible to take out a medicore defended marine base with 1 or 2 marines in it.
Carapace HAS been fixed (just tested it). Maybe just not the way you expected it to get fixed. The bug on carapace was that it gave the alien a 10%/20%/30% dmg negation even when all armor was down. THIS has been fixed. The dmg negation when having armor left is still there. And since a fully healed and armored fade runs out of hp faster than out of armor it does not make a difference for him (unless he gets shot down and then only heals hp and not armor).
But the arguments presented in the article don't really work out.. i've seen talented lerks do a tremendous amount of dmg with only one hive.
I played in a game last night where the aliens got two hives and we had one of theirs pretty well down.. they got fades.. but we also had fully upgraded weapons and no armor. This makes a HUGE difference in fighting fades as a marine. Because even the lmg marine can do a decent amount of dmg to fades. We had two teams, a pair defending the hive with a grenade launcher. Another rant, people don't use grenade launchers enough is about the best way to describe them. Where fades can hit you around the corner with splash dmg. I can hit them all the way down the hall with explosions, around the corner and i don't even have to be looking in their direction after i fire it. So I was in the hive team with a Gl and another marine with a hmg to take care of any close up beasties. It was close, we would die and our turret farm at the entrance to sat array would go down to 3 or 4 turrets. But grenades turned it around fast for us there. We were able to hold it.
Since the fades were attacking sat array we had another team of 4 heavies attacking unnamed. Eventually they fought their way in and secured it...you can guess where the game went from there.This is an exception to the rule, we had some really good players who knew the importance of staying together and welding as heavies. Our comm was right on top of things as well.
It seems to me that people want the game balanced for medicore marines/comm to be able to win. That's crap. The game is really balanced right now. A team of teamworking players on either side will win no matter what, sometimes all the good players end up on the same team and slaughter the other. It's a bit more needle in the haystack for marines with good comm's.. but that's the way it goes. One thing this shambler article fails to portray is the skill level of players, and how much that goes into balancing a game.
Normally what I will do is build 2 infs a armory, a tf and atmost 3 turrets to cover the marine structures in the beginning. Then have the marines move out to a hive right away, except 1 or 2. get up an observatory as you capture a hive and set up phase gates asap. The Hive usually only takes a few turrets to cover while the aliens still only have skulks. The next goal should be to cap a few res nodes and upgrade the armory get a weapon and armor upgrades, and usually you will be able to hand out a few HA, HMGs at around the time you see the 1st fades.
Then you can fortify you bases more.
I have been in several games where the aliens and marines were basically in a draw when marines had HA, HMG and aliens fades and whatnot. So the game imo is balanced. The problem is the players not the game.
If the marines try to overly fortify their base at the start and don't sprint for a vacant hive, they are doomed. The bile bombs and onos will eventually show up and destroy everything. An example is the game I played last night: myself and another marine sprinted to a hive, killed a couple of skulks that happened by (I love shootin' them dawgs...) and then we begged the cdr to warp in some fortifications. He was busy building up our base, so after several minutes of vain requests for a turfac, some sentires, and maybe a seige cannon, we gave up and moved on. Sure enough, the aliens wasted no time in dropping a hive in, and we had to take the hive later at great cost and effort.
The home base can easily be defended by two guys who can shoot halfways decent and are not too prima-donna to support the team by staying home for a while. The rest of the team can then quickly get a hive, have great fun fighting for the second hive as upgrades become available, and then waste the third hive with HMG, HA, and seige cannons during the end-game phase.
This is not rocket science. The marines just have to be coordinated. Dear friends - please stop trying to be Rambo. A lone marine is dogfood. Three marines working together are a formidable force, even in spawn gear. Stop whining for shotguns - three LMGs will eat a fade no problem. My favourite advice to marines is stop worrying about how many kills you get - concentrate on how many wins you get.
Marine priorities should be
(1) Get hives,
(2) Hold hives,
(3) End alien lives.
See you on the net