<!--quoteo(post=1777805:date=Jul 11 2010, 05:35 AM:name=rmarx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rmarx @ Jul 11 2010, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if you play on a 33 tickrate all the time, you'll get used to the feel of it and subconsciously adjust your playstyle to it. Suddenly switching to 100 tickrate is not miraculously going to improve your performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If NS2 is even half as fast of a game as NS, then this won't be true. Fast gameplay requires the ability to have high tickrates if the game is going to be taken seriously by competitive players. Many people, including myself, quit l4d because of this. The OP seems to have a similar story.
<!--quoteo(post=1777816:date=Jul 11 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 11 2010, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 gets hats & I'll uninstall it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 already has hats. They're black and you wear them on your armour.
100 tick rate would be nice. Big problem though is what the server box is actually doing. A lot of hosts have a tendency to run a crapton of servers on one box. They try to get as much money for their resources as possible. Which is understandable. However, this can also lead to server inconsistency. So a tick rate of 100 doesn't mean much if the server box has overextended its resources.
I've played TF2 consistently for the past 3 years. Everyone saying its an item hunt and an MMO are clearly playing on achievement_idle servers. The game is extremely fun to play and has a lot of meta game similar to NS. Just because you play with people who think pyro is the best class doesn't mean the game is boring.
Also having new content being regularly added in the game allow for more variation. The game doesn't get stale. You shouldn't be mad at Valve for updating a 3 year old game with new content, FOR FREE. Why do you guys hate items so much. Just because you get it either as a random drop or through achievements? If you don't want to wait like 3/4ths of the community use Steam Achievement Manager.
After they got rid of idling for the most part for items and hats. It has calmed down a lot. There is no "persecution" for items or hats. Its luck of the draw and everyone knows that. If you play for 88 hours of gameplay you are guarenteed to craft a hat.
<!--QuoteBegin-darktimes+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darktimes)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't go that route UW. don't or you will lose loyal players, and gain stupid children distracted by shiny objects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because UWE wants this game to have the same miniscule success as NS1. You have to appeal to new crowds and you can't just only appease your loyal fans.
<!--QuoteBegin-brownymaster+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope the NS2 community does not inherit the TF2's community of item hoarding and persecution. I can't believe how serious these people have taken the hats and items to such a degree, and valve isn't honestly helping the situation. At least NS won't be offering any beyond the SE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep Free content sucks on a 3 year old game. I hope UWE doesn't update this game at all when they release it.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember this one time I played TF2 then got bored in half an hour. I blame it on the fact that I was playing TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe give it more than a half an hour to find a game that has a high skill curve to really enjoy.
Sorry about the huge derail, but i'll get back on track:
NS2 will probably have completely different netcode than source engine.
<!--quoteo(post=1778183:date=Jul 13 2010, 05:56 PM:name=kuperaye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kuperaye @ Jul 13 2010, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1778183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Also having new content being regularly added in the game allow for more variation. The game doesn't get stale. You shouldn't be mad at Valve for updating a 3 year old game with new content, FOR FREE. Why do you guys hate items so much. Just because you get it either as a random drop or through achievements? If you don't want to wait like 3/4ths of the community use Steam Achievement Manager.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will complain. They took a game that was fun and well balanced for 9 classes with 3-5 weapons each and totally screwed it up. Introducing new ways to play a class (Airblast and moving sentries) are fine but adding 39 weapons and not even balancing them totally throws off the balance. Don't use the free update as an excuse to destroy what made the game fun. When I bought it on release it was simplistic and that was the charm, now there are so many obsessions with hats or needing to get weapons <b>that give you advantages over those that don't have them</b>. I want all the unlocks removed from the game and only the class adjustments left while being further tweaked to increase balance.
Add new content in the form of maps and game-modes but do not touch the major part of the game without ample testing time.
<!--quoteo(post=1778257:date=Jul 13 2010, 03:40 PM:name=Whiteblade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiteblade @ Jul 13 2010, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1778257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will complain. They took a game that was fun and well balanced for 9 classes with 3-5 weapons each and totally screwed it up. Introducing new ways to play a class (Airblast and moving sentries) are fine but adding 39 weapons and not even balancing them totally throws off the balance. Don't use the free update as an excuse to destroy what made the game fun. When I bought it on release it was simplistic and that was the charm, now there are so many obsessions with hats or needing to get weapons <b>that give you advantages over those that don't have them</b>. I want all the unlocks removed from the game and only the class adjustments left while being further tweaked to increase balance.
Add new content in the form of maps and game-modes but do not touch the major part of the game without ample testing time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry? You want more restricted cookie cutter gameplay? Let's take a look at a few things the updates have done that have made the game better in every way:
Krieg adds a whole new way to attack. Jarate and Buff Banner add teamwork based attack planning. Direct Hit adds skill elements to soldiers. Natasha adds defensive options. Bonk adds offensive options. Flaregun adds sniper harass.
Jesus, the list goes ON. The class updates keep the game fresh and add FAR more depth to the game. And realistically, there are VERY few direct upgrades for each class, this is a baseless post. The only real direct upgrades are:
Ubersaw (MELEE) Blutsauger (MEDIC WEAPON) KGB (MELEE) Ambassador (ONLY IF YOU CAN AIM)
You don't even have a stable base of argument here.
<!--quoteo(post=1778257:date=Jul 13 2010, 03:40 PM:name=Whiteblade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Whiteblade @ Jul 13 2010, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1778257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will complain. They took a game that was fun and well balanced for 9 classes with 3-5 weapons each and totally screwed it up. Introducing new ways to play a class (Airblast and moving sentries) are fine but adding 39 weapons and not even balancing them totally throws off the balance. Don't use the free update as an excuse to destroy what made the game fun. When I bought it on release it was simplistic and that was the charm, now there are so many obsessions with hats or needing to get weapons <b>that give you advantages over those that don't have them</b>. I want all the unlocks removed from the game and only the class adjustments left while being further tweaked to increase balance.
Add new content in the form of maps and game-modes but do not touch the major part of the game without ample testing time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly look at the weapons, there are a very few that are direct upgrades to the current weapons. The others are very situational and either a lower sidegrade or not good at all.
Direct Upgrade Weapons Include: Equalizer, Axtinguisher, KGB, Sandvich in most situations, Ubersaw
edit: should of read Slycasters post first. Pretty much saying what I said.
<!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Updaterate determines how often the client asks the server to send him data about one of those snapshots. -> updaterate 100 on a 33 tick server means you still get only 33 updates per second, cause the server cannot provide more data. However because your client interpolation is based on the updaterate variable you interpolate incorrectly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even if a updaterate is too high, shouldn't it be fine for interpolation as long you get ~10-20updates pr. second? The default ex_interp is 0.1, so you're always 100ms behind anyways, so the engine should be able to deal with only 10 updates pr. second.
<!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commandrate determines how often the client informs the server about the clients state. -> commandrate 100 on a 33 tick server has a positive effect, cause although the server only calculates 33 snapshots he will do so with a little bit more recent client data. (Effect is minuscule and the additional bandwith usage is not really worth the improvement.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Kind of disagree with that one ;) I like cmdrate to be the same as my fps, because it gives the highest resolution for my inputs and also because the client will interpolate all the usercmd's you have buffered up every frame, so a cmdrate = fps means that the engine reads input every frame (and why not read input every frame?) <- Might be wrong on this, because this is how it is in the original quake engine half-life was based on, which doesn't have death-reckoning <!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your rates are higher than the servers rate client interpolation will be calculated incorrectly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> AFAIK rate simply works as an throttle on the server side, nothing fancy, just a simple check to see if the server need to hold back on the packets for a bit...
<!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your rates are lower than the servers rate either the server has to interpolate more and send those guessed snapshots to the other clients, or the server just forwards data and all other clients have to interpolate more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just a note, the clients don't interpolate more because someone has low rates.. the server decides a position and sends the update to the clients, and they just handle it as usual.
<!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Interpolation means that because if have a client side fps of 100 and the server only sends you 33 updates a seconds. You have to guess for 67 frames per second where all objects are actually. This causes the shot around a corner moments, which gets worse the faster the objets whos position you have to guess gets. Leaping skulks in ns that only used a commandrate of 15 were a prime example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The client _always_ interpolates, unless you're running with it off (of course) or you don't have a gamestate packet. With ex_interp 0.1 the client is always behind, so it is not "guessing", it is actually just playing a stream with a slight delay, so it always can interpolate cleanly. The "guessing" would be extrapolation which happens when you run out of gamestates to interpolate to, usually caused by dropped packets.
Btw, I agree with a lot of what you said - if you think I'm wrong I'd be interested in hearing what you think, I might be missing out on some details or simply stupid :)
<!--quoteo(post=1778259:date=Jul 13 2010, 09:52 PM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 13 2010, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1778259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry? You want more restricted cookie cutter gameplay? Let's take a look at a few things the updates have done that have made the game better in every way:
Krieg adds a whole new way to attack. Jarate and Buff Banner add teamwork based attack planning. Direct Hit adds skill elements to soldiers. Natasha adds defensive options. Bonk adds offensive options. Flaregun adds sniper harass.
Jesus, the list goes ON. The class updates keep the game fresh and add FAR more depth to the game. And realistically, there are VERY few direct upgrades for each class, this is a baseless post. The only real direct upgrades are:
Ubersaw (MELEE) Blutsauger (MEDIC WEAPON) KGB (MELEE) Ambassador (ONLY IF YOU CAN AIM)
You don't even have a stable base of argument here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Wrangler, Jarate, Equalizer, Axtinguisher, Tribalman's Shiv, Scottsman's Skullcutter, and Huntsman. The disadvantages aren't enough on these weapons and give you an edge over someone that doesn't have them. The Wrangler gives you a literal meatshield instead of a peashooter that doesn't help at all in a real skirmish, Jarate gives a damage increase which is more utility the the worst vanilla side-arm in the game, Equalizer benefits from being an ace in the hole as if you are that low it doesn't make sense to switch to melee unless the medic is dead in which case you can run away, Axtinguisher lets you 1-2 combo any unbuffed class save the Heavy, Shiv stacks better with jarate and gives you a presence at melee, Skullcutter makes you move slower but lets you hit harder which doesn't matter since any Demoman worth his salt uses stickies to move around the map much like the roaming solder, and Huntsman allows for faster headshots and easier movement which gives the weapon more utility as it can be used more often and in more situations. Taking the original weapons over any of these is just silly.
They add more depth but destroy the balance, 11 weapons that were added are superior to their counter-parts in pure power or versatility. That is nearly 1/3 of them while others are severly underpowered. Backburner gives up the only defense (and in some cases offense) a Pyro has in return for useless back crits since anyone wide awake will see the Pyro coming save from jumping above him, Dead Ringer drops a fake corpse which lets him fake death but at the cost of moving around enemy lines save for when he fakes death, and Bonk takes away half the offense behind the scout which is the only reason he is picked. I think you get the idea.
The reason I want all of the unlocks removed is because Valve obviously can't balance something with depth so make it simplistic yet balanced (the charm) as opposed to a boatload of weapons where some add good uses or depth, some are underused and some are blatantly overpowered. When each class had their base weapons they all had a use with no one left out. Not a single weapon. That is what I want to see.
Comments
Just wait and see for the game, perhaps?
If NS2 is even half as fast of a game as NS, then this won't be true. Fast gameplay requires the ability to have high tickrates if the game is going to be taken seriously by competitive players. Many people, including myself, quit l4d because of this. The OP seems to have a similar story.
NS2 already has hats. They're black and you wear them on your armour.
Also having new content being regularly added in the game allow for more variation. The game doesn't get stale. You shouldn't be mad at Valve for updating a 3 year old game with new content, FOR FREE. Why do you guys hate items so much. Just because you get it either as a random drop or through achievements? If you don't want to wait like 3/4ths of the community use Steam Achievement Manager.
After they got rid of idling for the most part for items and hats. It has calmed down a lot. There is no "persecution" for items or hats. Its luck of the draw and everyone knows that. If you play for 88 hours of gameplay you are guarenteed to craft a hat.
<!--QuoteBegin-darktimes+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (darktimes)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't go that route UW. don't or you will lose loyal players, and gain stupid children distracted by shiny objects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because UWE wants this game to have the same miniscule success as NS1. You have to appeal to new crowds and you can't just only appease your loyal fans.
<!--QuoteBegin-brownymaster+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope the NS2 community does not inherit the TF2's community of item hoarding and persecution. I can't believe how serious these people have taken the hats and items to such a degree, and valve isn't honestly helping the situation. At least NS won't be offering any beyond the SE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep Free content sucks on a 3 year old game. I hope UWE doesn't update this game at all when they release it.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember this one time I played TF2 then got bored in half an hour. I blame it on the fact that I was playing TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe give it more than a half an hour to find a game that has a high skill curve to really enjoy.
Sorry about the huge derail, but i'll get back on track:
NS2 will probably have completely different netcode than source engine.
I will complain. They took a game that was fun and well balanced for 9 classes with 3-5 weapons each and totally screwed it up. Introducing new ways to play a class (Airblast and moving sentries) are fine but adding 39 weapons and not even balancing them totally throws off the balance. Don't use the free update as an excuse to destroy what made the game fun. When I bought it on release it was simplistic and that was the charm, now there are so many obsessions with hats or needing to get weapons <b>that give you advantages over those that don't have them</b>. I want all the unlocks removed from the game and only the class adjustments left while being further tweaked to increase balance.
Add new content in the form of maps and game-modes but do not touch the major part of the game without ample testing time.
Add new content in the form of maps and game-modes but do not touch the major part of the game without ample testing time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry? You want more restricted cookie cutter gameplay? Let's take a look at a few things the updates have done that have made the game better in every way:
Krieg adds a whole new way to attack.
Jarate and Buff Banner add teamwork based attack planning.
Direct Hit adds skill elements to soldiers.
Natasha adds defensive options.
Bonk adds offensive options.
Flaregun adds sniper harass.
Jesus, the list goes ON. The class updates keep the game fresh and add FAR more depth to the game. And realistically, there are VERY few direct upgrades for each class, this is a baseless post. The only real direct upgrades are:
Ubersaw (MELEE)
Blutsauger (MEDIC WEAPON)
KGB (MELEE)
Ambassador (ONLY IF YOU CAN AIM)
You don't even have a stable base of argument here.
Add new content in the form of maps and game-modes but do not touch the major part of the game without ample testing time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly look at the weapons, there are a very few that are direct upgrades to the current weapons. The others are very situational and either a lower sidegrade or not good at all.
Direct Upgrade Weapons Include:
Equalizer, Axtinguisher, KGB, Sandvich in most situations, Ubersaw
edit: should of read Slycasters post first. Pretty much saying what I said.
-> updaterate 100 on a 33 tick server means you still get only 33 updates per second, cause the server cannot provide more data. However because your client interpolation is based on the updaterate variable you interpolate incorrectly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if a updaterate is too high, shouldn't it be fine for interpolation as long you get ~10-20updates pr. second? The default ex_interp is 0.1, so you're always 100ms behind anyways, so the engine should be able to deal with only 10 updates pr. second.
<!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commandrate determines how often the client informs the server about the clients state.
-> commandrate 100 on a 33 tick server has a positive effect, cause although the server only calculates 33 snapshots he will do so with a little bit more recent client data. (Effect is minuscule and the additional bandwith usage is not really worth the improvement.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kind of disagree with that one ;) I like cmdrate to be the same as my fps, because it gives the highest resolution for my inputs and also because the client will interpolate all the usercmd's you have buffered up every frame, so a cmdrate = fps means that the engine reads input every frame (and why not read input every frame?) <- Might be wrong on this, because this is how it is in the original quake engine half-life was based on, which doesn't have death-reckoning
<!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your rates are higher than the servers rate client interpolation will be calculated incorrectly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK rate simply works as an throttle on the server side, nothing fancy, just a simple check to see if the server need to hold back on the packets for a bit...
<!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your rates are lower than the servers rate either the server has to interpolate more and send those guessed snapshots to the other clients, or the server just forwards data and all other clients have to interpolate more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a note, the clients don't interpolate more because someone has low rates.. the server decides a position and sends the update to the clients, and they just handle it as usual.
<!--quoteo(post=1777680:date=Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Faskalia @ Jul 10 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1777680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Interpolation means that because if have a client side fps of 100 and the server only sends you 33 updates a seconds. You have to guess for 67 frames per second where all objects are actually. This causes the shot around a corner moments, which gets worse the faster the objets whos position you have to guess gets. Leaping skulks in ns that only used a commandrate of 15 were a prime example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The client _always_ interpolates, unless you're running with it off (of course) or you don't have a gamestate packet. With ex_interp 0.1 the client is always behind, so it is not "guessing", it is actually just playing a stream with a slight delay, so it always can interpolate cleanly. The "guessing" would be extrapolation which happens when you run out of gamestates to interpolate to, usually caused by dropped packets.
Btw, I agree with a lot of what you said - if you think I'm wrong I'd be interested in hearing what you think, I might be missing out on some details or simply stupid :)
Krieg adds a whole new way to attack.
Jarate and Buff Banner add teamwork based attack planning.
Direct Hit adds skill elements to soldiers.
Natasha adds defensive options.
Bonk adds offensive options.
Flaregun adds sniper harass.
Jesus, the list goes ON. The class updates keep the game fresh and add FAR more depth to the game. And realistically, there are VERY few direct upgrades for each class, this is a baseless post. The only real direct upgrades are:
Ubersaw (MELEE)
Blutsauger (MEDIC WEAPON)
KGB (MELEE)
Ambassador (ONLY IF YOU CAN AIM)
You don't even have a stable base of argument here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Wrangler, Jarate, Equalizer, Axtinguisher, Tribalman's Shiv, Scottsman's Skullcutter, and Huntsman. The disadvantages aren't enough on these weapons and give you an edge over someone that doesn't have them. The Wrangler gives you a literal meatshield instead of a peashooter that doesn't help at all in a real skirmish, Jarate gives a damage increase which is more utility the the worst vanilla side-arm in the game, Equalizer benefits from being an ace in the hole as if you are that low it doesn't make sense to switch to melee unless the medic is dead in which case you can run away, Axtinguisher lets you 1-2 combo any unbuffed class save the Heavy, Shiv stacks better with jarate and gives you a presence at melee, Skullcutter makes you move slower but lets you hit harder which doesn't matter since any Demoman worth his salt uses stickies to move around the map much like the roaming solder, and Huntsman allows for faster headshots and easier movement which gives the weapon more utility as it can be used more often and in more situations. Taking the original weapons over any of these is just silly.
They add more depth but destroy the balance, 11 weapons that were added are superior to their counter-parts in pure power or versatility. That is nearly 1/3 of them while others are severly underpowered. Backburner gives up the only defense (and in some cases offense) a Pyro has in return for useless back crits since anyone wide awake will see the Pyro coming save from jumping above him, Dead Ringer drops a fake corpse which lets him fake death but at the cost of moving around enemy lines save for when he fakes death, and Bonk takes away half the offense behind the scout which is the only reason he is picked. I think you get the idea.
The reason I want all of the unlocks removed is because Valve obviously can't balance something with depth so make it simplistic yet balanced (the charm) as opposed to a boatload of weapons where some add good uses or depth, some are underused and some are blatantly overpowered. When each class had their base weapons they all had a use with no one left out. Not a single weapon. That is what I want to see.