<!--quoteo(post=1775847:date=Jun 22 2010, 06:29 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jun 22 2010, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I agree a mouse / keyboard player is probably quicker than a controller player. By how much really depends on the player though. I bet an experienced controller player could easily own average mouse / keyboard players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there's no "probably" about it - it's much quicker and more accurate. Regarding experienced console/controller gamer vs average PC player - possibly, after all a big part of FPS games is knowing where to position yourself, when enemies are coming, etc etc.
At the same time though, remember that console gamers (having played huge amounts of Halo/COD on consoles, I'm one of them too) have additional things like auto-tracking of targets and what I suspect to be less stringent hitboxes that makes it easier to play FPS games with a degree of competency on a controller. If you took auto-tracking (when the crosshair tracks onto the enemy for you - common in nearly every console shooter) away, I doubt even good console gamers would do well against average ones, because aiming in the general direction of someone with an analogue stick wont be very effective.
Furthermore, communication in console games is very poor, and I feel some of the pro-console/controller crowd in this and other threads on other forums miss the point here. Firstly, mic quality is usually poor compared to what you get on a PC (especially with dedicated ventrilo servers, better hardware, etc). Secondly, unless youre in a party with friends or in a team, the vast majority of players in public servers aren't even using a mic. So not only can they not talk to you, but they cant hear you either (unless their volume is turned really high), and so you're basically playing with a bunch of players who you simply cannot communicate with in any way (other then sending private messages, which takes forever on a console). Also, if you're a typical console gamer like me, you'll just mute everyone who does talk anyway (outside of friends) because alot of people like to banter with friends, flame, moan, etc etc, which in turn means that you get a lot of useless/annoying noise when you're playing - hence why it becomes second nature to just mute people. Which again, results in a communication barrier. Compare that to PC FPS games, where you have both team_say and all_say and can type message so that everyone can read them - on top of this you then have voice comms. Infinitely more useful.
The biggest problem with NS and controller support is that the commander mode would be a train wreck. RTS games work very, very badly on consoles because it's very difficult to move a cursor around the screen fast and accurately with an analogue stick (and in most RTS games you need to go from various extremes of the screen to selecting specific pixels very quickly). The only mildly decent RTS games on consoles tend to overcome this by using buttons as quick-selection tools, skipping through units, etc etc - but if youre having to place turrets and drop medpacks and move around the map quickly enough as a commander, all on a controller, it'll be a nightmare. Being commander is hard enough - unless UWE can design an exceptionally brilliant commander interface for controllers that no RTS designer has managed with other (bigger) RTS games on consoles, then a commander who is using a controller to play will be both a major hindrance to his team as well as making the learning curve alot worse.
Ummm I am talking controller on a PC. Why would the mic be different? And auto aim tracking usually messes up my shots and I get annoyed not being able to turn it off. (unless I'm missing an option somewhere?)
I can see the commander view being tougher. I don't see it a train-wreck however.
Anyway all this aside I use a Gyro mouse. It is a hand-held mouse that works similar to a wii-mote to control the mouse on screen. At first I found it tough now I love it. I will be using this anyway. (it's amazing the precise movements you can make with very slight twists of the wrist) I just think it would be awesome to have the OPTION to sit back away from the keyboard with my VGA/HDMI output plugged into my flat-screen TV playing NS from a controller.
Also when it comes to typing I already explained this. Since it would be a controller on a PC there is nothing to stop you from putting it down for a second to type. You have to let go of the mouse to type anyway (unless you wanna type with 1 hand but eh).
We're referring to precision and accuracy. Your gyro-mouse, despite being handheld, still operates on the principle (as another user put it) of mapping spacial coordinates to screen coordinates; meaning you point at your upper left corner and that's where you're looking. Let alone typing and RTS hotkeys, even granting everything else aside, FPS' like NS rely on precision, accuracy, and the ability to achieve and maintain it quickly and with very little forgiveness. This is the exact opposite of the purpose of a controller (and more aptly, analog sticks), well suited for consoles for whom the user base are bottlefed sheep barely conscious of what a headshot or snap-aiming is outside of their auto-aim training wheels.
You want to sit back and relax in front of your TV? Fine, do it with a beer, not Natural Selection.
<!--quoteo(post=1775264:date=Jun 18 2010, 03:07 AM:name=Daggial)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daggial @ Jun 18 2010, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->still have to understand why someone has to play fps games with a joypad<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could be that it is the closest they will ever come to something that is like a ######?
NS2 on ps3 is not going to happen it is a totally different platform. Steam is just expanding its market as a digital distribution service.
<!--quoteo(post=1775883:date=Jun 22 2010, 07:56 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jun 22 2010, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the exact opposite of the purpose of a controller (and more aptly, analog sticks), well suited for consoles for whom the user base are bottlefed sheep barely conscious of what a headshot or snap-aiming is outside of their auto-aim training wheels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you are just a troll and pretty ignorant of consoles. Analog sticks actually work quite well and your inability to use one clearly fuels your dislike for them. Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't. True example of ignorance right there.
<!--quoteo(post=1775886:date=Jun 22 2010, 09:11 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jun 22 2010, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you are just a troll and pretty ignorant of consoles. Analog sticks actually work quite well and your inability to use one clearly fuels your dislike for them. Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't. True example of ignorance right there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but controllers only work if magnetism or auto aim is added. Controllers don't have the precision to function in a game like NS. A good example i can think of is the game Halo 3, Killing an enemy is quite easy, but try killing a stafing teammate.(Magnetism is only applied to enemies) Tell me how that goes.
LOL controllers only work with aim assist ya right. Killing a strafing teammate without aim assist tends to go quite well because I don't have it messing with my shot. I like aiming without assist because I know how much to push the thumb stick to get the crosshair to land where I want it. Similar to how with a mouse you know to move it x distance to land at location x, with a thumbstick you get used to how hard to push it for how long to get your crosshair to land at a certain location.
This being said does anyone know how to disable aim assist in Halo/MW2? I really do not like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1775886:date=Jun 22 2010, 08:11 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jun 22 2010, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose I misjudged you as I was certain you were incapable of thought. In either case, your argument is tired and baseless for the many reasons listed in this topic, and to humour your sad little attempt at a jab: if you can drive stick, you can drive automatic; if pistol-sniping noobs like you is a cakewalk with only two thumbs, I pity you who has to face the average FPS player using all ten digits on both hands.
<!--quoteo(post=1775901:date=Jun 23 2010, 12:47 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jun 23 2010, 12:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose I misjudged you as I was certain you were incapable of thought. In either case, your argument is tired and baseless for the many reasons listed in this topic, and to humour your sad little attempt at a jab: if you can drive stick, you can drive automatic; if pistol-sniping noobs like you is a cakewalk with only two thumbs, I pity you who has to face the average FPS player using all ten digits on both hands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My argument is baseless? Reread everything you just wrote. Pointless insults nothing but trolling, and I don't see why I would be facing 'the average FPS player' without a mouse keyboard setup anyway. Isn't that what I said I'd be doing? Just because I think a controller would be a nice option is enough to anger you this much? Seek help please.
ok ive had enough of this controller vs mouse and keyboard war ok? im new to this forum but i think we have strayed a bit too far away from the topic. the original topic is that steamworks is coming to ps3. so what if they make some games for the ps3 portal 2 might actually be fun. now in truth i dont like consoles much. in fact i use my ps3 usually to watch videos most of the time and maybe a few games. im a pc gamer and i prefer it that way. when i play with controllers pc OR console the analogue stick is always slow when i try to turn for 2 seconds before it increases its speed and thats even with increased sensitivity. mouses do not have this problem making it easy to turn and attack before you die in a game and in NS2 this is really important. Yes controllers may have the advantage of having to remember fewer buttons. but to me that is just annoying. add to the fact you have to pick from a pre selected scheme makes it even worse. keyboards are customizable and most games can have the same buttons so it really isnt hard to remember a personal control scheme. i mean ive used nearly the same scheme for like 6 years and counting.
My final opinion mouses and keyboards are better in the end as they are suited to more games. controllers are only good for 1 kind game in my opinion. racing games and that is it.
<!--quoteo(post=1775880:date=Jun 23 2010, 12:04 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jun 23 2010, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ummm I am talking controller on a PC. Why would the mic be different? And auto aim tracking usually messes up my shots and I get annoyed not being able to turn it off. (unless I'm missing an option somewhere?)
I can see the commander view being tougher. I don't see it a train-wreck however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, given the thread, I assumed the conversation was about PC NS2 vs PS3 NS2, and whether the controller would be too big a limitation on NS gameplay (imo it will be - Left 4 Dead is poor on the 360 for example because leaping around with something like the Hunter whilst using two analogue sticks is painful - and that would be skulk/fade gameplay for you).
Certainly see no harm in there being a controller option on the PC version if you want to use it. If you're bad with it, then I'm sure other players on the server will let you know. But at least on the PC you'd be in a very, very tiny minority who'd actually prefer to use a controller over a good gaming mouse. Trouble with NS2 on the PS3 is that it'll be just like Left 4 Dead on consoles - a pretty boring/shallow experience compared to what it is on the PC.
<!--quoteo(post=1775914:date=Jun 23 2010, 11:10 AM:name=MajorFoley)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MajorFoley @ Jun 23 2010, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My final opinion mouses and keyboards are better in the end as they are suited to more games. controllers are only good for 1 kind game in my opinion. racing games and that is it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would say controllers are better for more than that - mainly, sports games and beat-em-ups. Playing something like Street Fighter, or FIFA, on a keyboard or mouse is just as bad as playing an RTS (and to a lesser extent, an FPS) on a controller. A keyboard isn't well mapped out for those types of games, and because those games dont need specific precision aiming on the screen using a cursor (you just need to move the stick top-right for example rather than aim top right), they work alot better because the sticks and buttons are better mapped out for those types of games.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited June 2010
Honestly, I'd have to agree that the biggest obstacle to a finished product would be the major cost of the development setup, codebase transfer, debugging and so on. It would cost too much and take too much time, short version.
As far as the control debate goes, I have to throw my cards in with the keyboard/mouse crowd. I've debated with a number of joypad evangelists who similarly tried to refute, disregarded, or blatantly ignored any arguments about the original Halo cross compatibility (and eventual scrapping before release)... KB/mouse users simply *decimated* joypad users on every front. Later games have compensated with handicapping; limiting the turn speed of mice to compare with the maximum reasonable turn speed achievable with precision on a joypad, giving joypad users auto-aim to compensate for the lack of precision and capability... short version, as soon as an average joypad user can compete with an average KB/mouse user WITHOUT any compensation or coded advantage, I will concede that a joypad is a viable interface method for FPS games.
But they can't. When it has to be an option, advantage will be hard-coded in to 'level the field' and make up for joypads' shortcomings. Thumbsticks can't keep up when turn speed is unlimited and targets are small and quick-moving, as far as speed and precision go. Anything else is just an artificial handicap on the KB/mouse to make joypads look viable. Anyone else from back in the day remember trying to play DOOM2 deathmatch on a keyboard or a kb/joystick against mouse-users? Decimation is too kind a word.
That said, I still use a racing wheel for driving games, and a joypad for brawlers or anything where the control schema is simple and limited, or restricted to a limited movement speed, such as most air/space fighters or shmups. Same when dual analog input is a necessity... playing Smash TV or Geometry Wars with one analog input is an exercise in frustration.
Many valid points in this thread (a lot of invalid ones too) but given the general consensus against it there clearly will be no controller or console support. Fine with me I rather see the resources going into other features of the game instead.
Hey I think it would be great to include PS3 users however, I don't want to be restricted because the majority of console users will use thumbsticks instead of K&M.
If they want to come over thats fine, but they play against PC users and Console users with no restrictions.
<!--quoteo(post=1775473:date=Jun 19 2010, 05:42 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 19 2010, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Porting to console is definitely not easy and definitely not cheap. Aside from the large amount of time investment you need to buy developer kit versions of the PS3. Not sure how much they are right now, but when I was working at my last company each one of those coast about 100 thousand dollars.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any idea how much would a xbox devkit cost, considering NS2 would most likley be released on xbox than ps3? any more costs for example for the licence or anything else we dont know about?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
UT3 on PS3 had mouse/kb support. Now, I played with that for a while, but often I just couldn't be arsed to set it all up and move my seat forwards and I just played with the controller and tbh, it didn't make a huge difference.
You could play on controller only servers, or on servers that allowed both types of controllers.. obviously kb/mouse was better but the difference isn't as huge as most people here would expect. I know I used to hate console controllers until I forced myself to play through COD4 without using the auto-aim functionality and although I was never ace at fps games, I certainly don't feel inadequate with a controller. turn the sensitivity right up and use small movements aiming and large movements for turning quickly etc.
Exactly puzl. It just takes a little practice and experience with a controller to see why they aren't that bad at all. Watch out though you might start getting personally insulted for having this viewpoint. :\
<!--quoteo(post=1776000:date=Jun 24 2010, 08:47 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jun 24 2010, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UT3 on PS3 had mouse/kb support. Now, I played with that for a while, but often I just couldn't be arsed to set it all up and move my seat forwards and I just played with the controller and tbh, it didn't make a huge difference.
You could play on controller only servers, or on servers that allowed both types of controllers.. obviously kb/mouse was better but the difference isn't as huge as most people here would expect. I know I used to hate console controllers until I forced myself to play through COD4 without using the auto-aim functionality and although I was never ace at fps games, I certainly don't feel inadequate with a controller. turn the sensitivity right up and use small movements aiming and large movements for turning quickly etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeh its just i dont want to use a controller i know they can be good for many things but when i used to play on xbox 360 people always needed that auto assist and i dont really like having my sensitivity straight to the max
going from that to a mouse keyboard was a huge learning curve, but then going back from a m/kb to a ps3 control was also difficult. it just takes time to get used to it again then it's fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1775914:date=Jun 23 2010, 08:10 PM:name=MajorFoley)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MajorFoley @ Jun 23 2010, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My final opinion mouses and keyboards are better in the end as they are suited to more games. controllers are only good for 1 kind game in my opinion. racing games and that is it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd lump almost all sports games in there also.
<!--quoteo(post=1776000:date=Jun 24 2010, 10:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jun 24 2010, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UT3 on PS3 had mouse/kb support. Now, I played with that for a while, but often I just couldn't be arsed to set it all up and move my seat forwards and I just played with the controller and tbh, it didn't make a huge difference.
You could play on controller only servers, or on servers that allowed both types of controllers.. obviously kb/mouse was better but the difference isn't as huge as most people here would expect. I know I used to hate console controllers until I forced myself to play through COD4 without using the auto-aim functionality and although I was never ace at fps games, I certainly don't feel inadequate with a controller. turn the sensitivity right up and use small movements aiming and large movements for turning quickly etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I could see myself playing most games with pad, although I'm total garbage at using it. Meanwhile game like NS that revolves around 360 degree threat zone and quick hit and run stuff seems less viable. I don't really know how far you can take the pad, but NS would be one of the last places I'd take it in any case. Of course it's somewhat manageable as long as you're not expecting to snap 180 into a skulk at the first sound.
As for the PS3 Mouse and KB support: I wouldn't want to rely on the fraction of community that has them. It's a little like requiring TrackIR to even try flight simulators; nobody is going to invest in it before trying the flight sims with some cheaper setup first. Also, as Puzl mentioned, console isn't usually positioned with such restrictive system in mind. Just grab a pad and sink into sofa instead of having a desk for mouse+kb.
Comments
Well, there's no "probably" about it - it's much quicker and more accurate. Regarding experienced console/controller gamer vs average PC player - possibly, after all a big part of FPS games is knowing where to position yourself, when enemies are coming, etc etc.
At the same time though, remember that console gamers (having played huge amounts of Halo/COD on consoles, I'm one of them too) have additional things like auto-tracking of targets and what I suspect to be less stringent hitboxes that makes it easier to play FPS games with a degree of competency on a controller. If you took auto-tracking (when the crosshair tracks onto the enemy for you - common in nearly every console shooter) away, I doubt even good console gamers would do well against average ones, because aiming in the general direction of someone with an analogue stick wont be very effective.
Furthermore, communication in console games is very poor, and I feel some of the pro-console/controller crowd in this and other threads on other forums miss the point here. Firstly, mic quality is usually poor compared to what you get on a PC (especially with dedicated ventrilo servers, better hardware, etc). Secondly, unless youre in a party with friends or in a team, the vast majority of players in public servers aren't even using a mic. So not only can they not talk to you, but they cant hear you either (unless their volume is turned really high), and so you're basically playing with a bunch of players who you simply cannot communicate with in any way (other then sending private messages, which takes forever on a console). Also, if you're a typical console gamer like me, you'll just mute everyone who does talk anyway (outside of friends) because alot of people like to banter with friends, flame, moan, etc etc, which in turn means that you get a lot of useless/annoying noise when you're playing - hence why it becomes second nature to just mute people. Which again, results in a communication barrier. Compare that to PC FPS games, where you have both team_say and all_say and can type message so that everyone can read them - on top of this you then have voice comms. Infinitely more useful.
The biggest problem with NS and controller support is that the commander mode would be a train wreck. RTS games work very, very badly on consoles because it's very difficult to move a cursor around the screen fast and accurately with an analogue stick (and in most RTS games you need to go from various extremes of the screen to selecting specific pixels very quickly). The only mildly decent RTS games on consoles tend to overcome this by using buttons as quick-selection tools, skipping through units, etc etc - but if youre having to place turrets and drop medpacks and move around the map quickly enough as a commander, all on a controller, it'll be a nightmare. Being commander is hard enough - unless UWE can design an exceptionally brilliant commander interface for controllers that no RTS designer has managed with other (bigger) RTS games on consoles, then a commander who is using a controller to play will be both a major hindrance to his team as well as making the learning curve alot worse.
I can see the commander view being tougher. I don't see it a train-wreck however.
Anyway all this aside I use a Gyro mouse. It is a hand-held mouse that works similar to a wii-mote to control the mouse on screen. At first I found it tough now I love it. I will be using this anyway. (it's amazing the precise movements you can make with very slight twists of the wrist) I just think it would be awesome to have the OPTION to sit back away from the keyboard with my VGA/HDMI output plugged into my flat-screen TV playing NS from a controller.
Also when it comes to typing I already explained this. Since it would be a controller on a PC there is nothing to stop you from putting it down for a second to type. You have to let go of the mouse to type anyway (unless you wanna type with 1 hand but eh).
You want to sit back and relax in front of your TV? Fine, do it with a beer, not Natural Selection.
It could be that it is the closest they will ever come to something that is like a ######?
NS2 on ps3 is not going to happen it is a totally different platform. Steam is just expanding its market as a digital distribution service.
I think you are just a troll and pretty ignorant of consoles. Analog sticks actually work quite well and your inability to use one clearly fuels your dislike for them. Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't. True example of ignorance right there.
I'm sorry but controllers only work if magnetism or auto aim is added. Controllers don't have the precision to function in a game like NS.
A good example i can think of is the game Halo 3, Killing an enemy is quite easy, but try killing a stafing teammate.(Magnetism is only applied to enemies)
Tell me how that goes.
This being said does anyone know how to disable aim assist in Halo/MW2? I really do not like it.
I suppose I misjudged you as I was certain you were incapable of thought. In either case, your argument is tired and baseless for the many reasons listed in this topic, and to humour your sad little attempt at a jab: if you can drive stick, you can drive automatic; if pistol-sniping noobs like you is a cakewalk with only two thumbs, I pity you who has to face the average FPS player using all ten digits on both hands.
My argument is baseless? Reread everything you just wrote. Pointless insults nothing but trolling, and I don't see why I would be facing 'the average FPS player' without a mouse keyboard setup anyway. Isn't that what I said I'd be doing? Just because I think a controller would be a nice option is enough to anger you this much? Seek help please.
And yes I can drive stick fine.
now in truth i dont like consoles much. in fact i use my ps3 usually to watch videos most of the time and maybe a few games. im a pc gamer and i prefer it that way. when i play with controllers pc OR console the analogue stick is always slow when i try to turn for 2 seconds before it increases its speed and thats even with increased sensitivity. mouses do not have this problem making it easy to turn and attack before you die in a game and in NS2 this is really important. Yes controllers may have the advantage of having to remember fewer buttons. but to me that is just annoying. add to the fact you have to pick from a pre selected scheme makes it even worse. keyboards are customizable and most games can have the same buttons so it really isnt hard to remember a personal control scheme. i mean ive used nearly the same scheme for like 6 years and counting.
My final opinion mouses and keyboards are better in the end as they are suited to more games. controllers are only good for 1 kind game in my opinion. racing games and that is it.
I can see the commander view being tougher. I don't see it a train-wreck however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, given the thread, I assumed the conversation was about PC NS2 vs PS3 NS2, and whether the controller would be too big a limitation on NS gameplay (imo it will be - Left 4 Dead is poor on the 360 for example because leaping around with something like the Hunter whilst using two analogue sticks is painful - and that would be skulk/fade gameplay for you).
Certainly see no harm in there being a controller option on the PC version if you want to use it. If you're bad with it, then I'm sure other players on the server will let you know. But at least on the PC you'd be in a very, very tiny minority who'd actually prefer to use a controller over a good gaming mouse. Trouble with NS2 on the PS3 is that it'll be just like Left 4 Dead on consoles - a pretty boring/shallow experience compared to what it is on the PC.
Would say controllers are better for more than that - mainly, sports games and beat-em-ups. Playing something like Street Fighter, or FIFA, on a keyboard or mouse is just as bad as playing an RTS (and to a lesser extent, an FPS) on a controller. A keyboard isn't well mapped out for those types of games, and because those games dont need specific precision aiming on the screen using a cursor (you just need to move the stick top-right for example rather than aim top right), they work alot better because the sticks and buttons are better mapped out for those types of games.
As far as the control debate goes, I have to throw my cards in with the keyboard/mouse crowd. I've debated with a number of joypad evangelists who similarly tried to refute, disregarded, or blatantly ignored any arguments about the original Halo cross compatibility (and eventual scrapping before release)... KB/mouse users simply *decimated* joypad users on every front. Later games have compensated with handicapping; limiting the turn speed of mice to compare with the maximum reasonable turn speed achievable with precision on a joypad, giving joypad users auto-aim to compensate for the lack of precision and capability... short version, as soon as an average joypad user can compete with an average KB/mouse user WITHOUT any compensation or coded advantage, I will concede that a joypad is a viable interface method for FPS games.
But they can't. When it has to be an option, advantage will be hard-coded in to 'level the field' and make up for joypads' shortcomings. Thumbsticks can't keep up when turn speed is unlimited and targets are small and quick-moving, as far as speed and precision go. Anything else is just an artificial handicap on the KB/mouse to make joypads look viable.
Anyone else from back in the day remember trying to play DOOM2 deathmatch on a keyboard or a kb/joystick against mouse-users? Decimation is too kind a word.
That said, I still use a racing wheel for driving games, and a joypad for brawlers or anything where the control schema is simple and limited, or restricted to a limited movement speed, such as most air/space fighters or shmups. Same when dual analog input is a necessity... playing Smash TV or Geometry Wars with one analog input is an exercise in frustration.
Hey I think it would be great to include PS3 users however, I don't want to be restricted because the majority of console users will use thumbsticks instead of K&M.
If they want to come over thats fine, but they play against PC users and Console users with no restrictions.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any idea how much would a xbox devkit cost, considering NS2 would most likley be released on xbox than ps3? any more costs for example for the licence or anything else we dont know about?
You could play on controller only servers, or on servers that allowed both types of controllers.. obviously kb/mouse was better but the difference isn't as huge as most people here would expect. I know I used to hate console controllers until I forced myself to play through COD4 without using the auto-aim functionality and although I was never ace at fps games, I certainly don't feel inadequate with a controller. turn the sensitivity right up and use small movements aiming and large movements for turning quickly etc.
You could play on controller only servers, or on servers that allowed both types of controllers.. obviously kb/mouse was better but the difference isn't as huge as most people here would expect. I know I used to hate console controllers until I forced myself to play through COD4 without using the auto-aim functionality and although I was never ace at fps games, I certainly don't feel inadequate with a controller. turn the sensitivity right up and use small movements aiming and large movements for turning quickly etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeh its just i dont want to use a controller i know they can be good for many things but when i used to play on xbox 360 people always needed that auto assist and i dont really like having my sensitivity straight to the max
going from that to a mouse keyboard was a huge learning curve, but then going back from a m/kb to a ps3 control was also difficult. it just takes time to get used to it again then it's fine.
I'd lump almost all sports games in there also.
It has keyboard and mouse support. gg<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
You could play on controller only servers, or on servers that allowed both types of controllers.. obviously kb/mouse was better but the difference isn't as huge as most people here would expect. I know I used to hate console controllers until I forced myself to play through COD4 without using the auto-aim functionality and although I was never ace at fps games, I certainly don't feel inadequate with a controller. turn the sensitivity right up and use small movements aiming and large movements for turning quickly etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could see myself playing most games with pad, although I'm total garbage at using it. Meanwhile game like NS that revolves around 360 degree threat zone and quick hit and run stuff seems less viable. I don't really know how far you can take the pad, but NS would be one of the last places I'd take it in any case. Of course it's somewhat manageable as long as you're not expecting to snap 180 into a skulk at the first sound.
As for the PS3 Mouse and KB support: I wouldn't want to rely on the fraction of community that has them. It's a little like requiring TrackIR to even try flight simulators; nobody is going to invest in it before trying the flight sims with some cheaper setup first. Also, as Puzl mentioned, console isn't usually positioned with such restrictive system in mind. Just grab a pad and sink into sofa instead of having a desk for mouse+kb.
:P JK! ... but seriously **** consoles!
:P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1