MASC - 900" Range

BrawBraw Join Date: 2008-03-21 Member: 63920Members, Constellation
Quote from the Mapping Guidelines:
"MASCs (Siege Cannons) are approximately 100 long and 50 tall (64 when deployed), have a firing range of 900, and do splash damage in a radius of approx. 400".

900" range is quite a lot and I was wondering if anyone else feel like this is a bit too much? At least in my map one would be able to siege multiple Tech Points from the same spot with a radius that big, and judging from the layout of the tram map included in the Guidelines this would also be the case for that map. You could for instance siege 5 RTS & 2 Tech Points if you sieged up in "feed" from the looks of it.

I don't think my map is that small either, the travel times are equal or greater then what BreadMan listed for a large map with up to 6 techpoints in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109433" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=109433</a>.

Would be especially interested in a opinion from one of the devs on this subject. Does that number still stand, and if so, is it possible to siege multiple TPs in your official maps?

Comments

  • BrawBraw Join Date: 2008-03-21 Member: 63920Members, Constellation
    My god, seems I should get back to the school-bench and learn the diffrence of radius and diameter... Please delete or lock the topic, thank you. My apologies!
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    edited June 2010
    Oh wait what?
    Save me a bench, I assumed the same :D

    Edit:
    "Fireing range of 900"
    Nothing mentioned about diameter!?

    And yes, I think it might be bit too much aswell.
  • SgtBarlowSgtBarlow Level Designer Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22749Members, NS2 Developer
    Its 900" Line of Sight Only
  • BrawBraw Join Date: 2008-03-21 Member: 63920Members, Constellation
    Are you 100% sure about that, Barlow? That's some critical info right there. Just to clarify, the MASC have to have line of sight, it is not enough for the commander to scan or other troopers spot the hive?

    Hehe, to explain why I assumed it had insane range: I made a circle in spark and measured it to a 900" radius, I was stupid enough to image the MASC being able to fire from one end to another within this circle (which is, of course, the diameter, not the radius). So I thought it had twice the range it actually does...
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    Ok, that explains it :p

    Anyway, I'm also curious how you know that, Barlow :)
  • DelphicDelphic Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58262Members
    I swear I've read dev posts that have stated both that they need los and a forum correction that they don't... so I'm clueless.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1773568:date=Jun 6 2010, 04:56 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jun 6 2010, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its 900" Line of Sight Only<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I thought MASCs were the through the wall ones? And turrets were the LoS ones in your rooms.
  • RazorRazor Join Date: 2010-02-23 Member: 70695Members
    I'm pretty sure it can fire through walls. I think Barlow is just saying that it can hit anything in its 900 radius reach.

    "its not a ballistic weapon" "its an electronic weapon"

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgOb4kX0fXQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgOb4kX0fXQ</a>


    I think the 900 distance is ok but the 400 splash radius does seem fairly large. At that radius is could potentially hit a room full of closely placed structures but I'm guessing that the damage won't crazy high or the damage in AOE tapers off a good bit.
  • JimydJimyd Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Members
    Also note, the MASC probably will be as slow or if not slower than a NS1 Heavy suit. You actually have to get it to the "god spot" of the map first without it being raped and pillaged by the whole Kharaa team.

    =)
  • Lemming JesusLemming Jesus Join Date: 2010-04-13 Member: 71385Members
    Might just be old information that's been changed. Maybe the cannon is stupid expensive or something that helps balance its huge range. It looks like it could hit with splash damage up to 1300 inches away, through walls, and can also move.
  • TSSTSS Join Date: 2010-05-11 Member: 71716Members
    I thought the old siege cannon was LoS too, but it can still fire through walls. So without a scan or a marine spotting structures, it won't fire.

    But that usually ended up with a scan spam untill everything was dead.
  • SgtBarlowSgtBarlow Level Designer Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22749Members, NS2 Developer
    edited June 2010
    I am certain I have seen it a few times and in a video.

    Here is the info:
    The M.A.S.C is a Commander Controlled NPC much like the Builder/Welder bots. This also replaces the previously commander placed Siege Cannon.
    The main differences from NS1 siege cannons is the mobility and MASCs will need Line of Sight to fire..
  • JimydJimyd Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Members
    edited June 2010
    So basically no shooting through walls anymore(which I think is a good thing).

    Never made sense how it Electronically shot through walls anyways to me, it would seem like all the "Electronic Energy" would lose its density when trying to pass through a wall; especially with metal/rock surfaces. Maybe glass objects(when defined by the mapper) will be allowed for the Siege-Shot to shoot through it(the glass).
  • CruorCruor Join Date: 2004-11-07 Member: 32677Members
    Is the MASC LoS ballistic now then?

    If so then perhaps a neat upgrade for it would be an expensive phase launcher attachment, the railgun inside the weapon would accelerate the projectile til it's muzzle velocity but just before the projectile leaves the barrell, the phase launcher attachment phase shifts the projectile beyond "one" wall, but only one wall, so it will bypass one wall and emerge in the room beyond this wall and maintaining it's muzzle velocity until it's target or if there is more than one wall between, impact the wall instead.

    Just a thought.
  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
    Perhaps it could still fire through walls, but its range and/or strength would be severely decreased (depending on the thickness of the wall)?
  • BreadManBreadMan Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10854Members, Retired Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1773826:date=Jun 7 2010, 03:28 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jun 7 2010, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am certain I have seen it a few times and in a video.

    Here is the info:
    The M.A.S.C is a Commander Controlled NPC much like the Builder/Welder bots. This also replaces the previously commander placed Siege Cannon.
    The main differences from NS1 siege cannons is the mobility and MASCs will need Line of Sight to fire..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Barlow where is that from? Needs to be changed. MASCs are wall penetrating but need LoS on their target, just like NS1 sieges.
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    edited June 2010
    Thanks for the info!
    It's maybe confusing, because it says that <b>MASCs</b> need LoS, while it's enough that some unit in the whole marine team has LoS to the target, while the MASC is in range.

    Now I can redo my layout properly.
  • RazorRazor Join Date: 2010-02-23 Member: 70695Members
    Looks like it came from <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/MASC" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/MASC</a>

    LOS and wall penetrating has me confused =S so it needs to have a clear view of what it is shooting at or needs to be aiming at it even if it is through the wall?
  • BreadManBreadMan Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10854Members, Retired Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1774213:date=Jun 9 2010, 11:22 PM:name=Razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razor @ Jun 9 2010, 11:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like it came from <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/MASC" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/MASC</a>

    LOS and wall penetrating has me confused =S so it needs to have a clear view of what it is shooting at or needs to be aiming at it even if it is through the wall?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ok sorry, yes it's as psyk0man says: the *marine team* must have LoS on the target before the MASC can shoot it. The MASC can shoot through walls at any target within range, as long as it's visible to a marine player or the commander pings it.
  • EnceladusEnceladus Join Date: 2004-01-18 Member: 25442Members
    edited June 2010
    just to make sure about firing range..

    <img src="http://www.sorcerer.de/images/ns2/ns2-masc-range.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    yes, no, maybe? :)


    edit: just a thought.. what determines if something is in range to be shot at? e.g. on the picture the center of the hive model is 900 away from the marine, but due to the model size, the edges of the hive are closer. So when the masc fires, will it check if the center of the model is in range, oder will it just check if something of the model is in rage. Same goes for splash damange.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    I would not worry tooo much about stuff like that right now, as this is probably subjet to change when playtesting starts.
  • GISPGISP Battle Gorge Denmark Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
    Well, if his creating a siegemap it would be relavent to know the exact distance...
  • EnceladusEnceladus Join Date: 2004-01-18 Member: 25442Members
    The firing range of siege is also relevant on normal maps. According to the post of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=109433&view=findpost&p=1768037" target="_blank">BreadMan</a> the travel time between tech points should be between 15 and 22 seconds.

    let me visualize it..
    <img src="http://www.sorcerer.de/images/ns2/ns2-masc-range-2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    In this simplified version you would have two rooms connected by a hallway, each with a tech point. The players would have to walk the blue line to get from one to the other while the red line is the siege range. On that sketch the blue line adds to ~2900" which (i measured ~5secs for 900") is roughly a travel time of 16 seconds which would be within the 15-22 frame. But both tech points would be siegable from one spot and i guess thats something that should not happen :)
  • UKchaosUKchaos Join Date: 2002-08-10 Member: 1132Members
    There really does need to be a solid clarification of this. Maps are built around the siege range, not the other way around. I blog post on the gameplay mechanics of MASC would be a good idea imo.
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    I think there is enough clarification in this thread.
    If they change the range during alpha/beta, they'll probably decrease it, considering the current map sizes.
    Smaller range means you extrude that siege spot a little more.
    Bigger range could be worse for layouts, but there are also other ways to buff the MASC than to increase range.
  • UKchaosUKchaos Join Date: 2002-08-10 Member: 1132Members
    Im refering to sorcerors post mainly. Does the masc need a alien structure to fire at or are you able to target a patch of ground and just blast anything within that 400 radius? (effectivly making it a 1300 range weapon)
  • BrawBraw Join Date: 2008-03-21 Member: 63920Members, Constellation
    Thank you breadman for clarifying :)

    UKchaos: I agree with psykoman, there's enough clarification here. As to your question, you would of course not be able to damage the hive/other structures by shooting at the ground.
  • UKchaosUKchaos Join Date: 2002-08-10 Member: 1132Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UKchaos: I agree with psykoman, there's enough clarification here. As to your question, you would of course not be able to damage the hive/other structures by shooting at the ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Sorry! You are probably right.

    I only ask because the mapping guidelines are a little vague and I thought Breadman was only talking about the line-of-sight issue.
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