Importance Of Double Resource Nodes

MeOnCrackMeOnCrack Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9002Members
In a lot of servers I play, I see a lot of heated battles going on over double resources nodes, like Holoroom on ns_hera or Atmospheric Processing on ns_bast. The commander usually wastes a lot of time, resources, and attention on trying to secure those nodes. My question is, is it really worth it? I keep thinking that it's much better to spend all that effort into securing two hives and get two resource nodes from there. The attitude I get a lot from people, is that when they lose those double nodes, they will lose the round for sure. Am I missing something here? Are those nodes really that much more important than securing two hives?? I can understand if you are having trouble taking a hive and need an extra boost of rp's to build a forward siege base or get better weapons and what not, but if you have two hives that are open for a couple of turrets to be placed and phase gates, wouldn't that be the wiser choice to make??


  • TerrTerr Arthritic Skulk Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7486Members
    I think it's partly a psychological thing, more than being based solely on tactics. It's like a chess player trying to knock down the pieces one by one until the game is simple enough to grasp. (I do that <!--emo&:p--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )

    The double nodes are significant for more of a 'feeling' reason than a logical one. It all depends on how aware a marine or alien is about how the rest of the map is being fought over.
  • MenTaLMenTaL Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3558Members
    I agree. As commander on Hera I never go for holoroom. I will build base defence up near/under my com chair and send a pair of marines one with a welder to open the cargo bay door. Once this is upen it leads to a second res point. Then fromo here i set up turrets aorund the res point and up the factory for siege ( allowing siegeing of the inevitable build up in holoroom.) When that is down i will ( based on resorces) either take holoroom eaisly or move to the northern sector of processing (opposite the wall of the res node there and siege the data hive. and that res node (if i take holo first i still do this second.) with one hive down ( wether they had it or not) i move a little right into the corridor that leads to data core and in the back corner (nearest ventilation) i siege. From this point I can siege two hives and have my turret factories range overlapping at the edge.

    There are 2 main reasons i hit data core first.

    1) it cuts the map in half. I've opened my base and turreted cargo. and now I hold processing and the data core hive. this cuts the map in half I hold 3-5 res points (initial, cargo, processing, and possibly holo)

    2)the hallway i need to sige ventilation from may have alien structures. I assume it does. If it doesn't I get a happy surprise in the form of faster 3rd respoint.
  • ImaNewbieImaNewbie Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10207Members
    edited December 2002
    I agree also. In hera going for holoroom is a bad idea because aliens have the advantage at that location due to vents. Even if we set up defenses there, the aliens can somehow break through it with lerks or just suicide biting with a bunch of skulks. I also get a marine to open cargo and get the hive right above it. I think getting that hive is a good choice since, as mental said, splits the map in half for the aliens. The hard part is that if that is not their main base, that will usually be their 2nd hive, which means alot of fades will come to defend it. A good distraction for fades is that you go siege holoroom from cargo at this time, then if the fades save holoroom hive is gone, and vice versa.
  • WarpZoneWarpZone Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6264Members
    Whan playing as an alien, I usually try to avoid the double node rooms, since they're usually damn near impossible to defend once you do cap them. There's always some noob gorge who insists on building on them, though. Definitely a psychological thing, like a treasure chest brimming with gold coins, or something.

    I think marines have a better chance of defending these rooms than aliens do, though, as long as you put the turret factory in the right place and don't leave a sweet spot for skulks to slip in and feast. Or, you know, you can always keep guys there to defend it.

    Oh, also, since the double node rooms are usually in the center of the map, they might be a good place to establish a presence anyway so you can build seiges there.
  • kahkah Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9944Members
    double res = not important

    securing hives = important

    how come so many people do not realise this?
  • MagneusMagneus Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9551Members
    You have to remember that it isn't JUST about securing hives. It's hugely important to grab chokepoints and general real estate cutting off the other team. If you've got resources and key locations, you can just siege. Rushing off and grabbing 2 hives in the beginning may seem like a wise tactic, but it's highly risky. I prefer to grab resources, a hive, and then batter the aliens with the new tech. I find it to be a more conservative, reliable strategy. On Tanith, for instance, the satcom hive is useless for the aliens to grab if they haven't secure chemical transport. The Fusion Reactor hive is a waste of time if Cargo Hold isn't clear. Just grabbing the hive isn't good enough, the locations around them are highly important.
  • AnkanAnkan Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1858Members
    I can never open the door on that map you're talking about MenTaL. I know it can be done 'cause I've seen it once, but they didn't tell me how to do it... <!--emo&???--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->

    And I hate the Marine commander that only gives ammo to the people near the double nozzles. I usually go away from the base and ignore the commands I get - I get more loved for being a teamhelper since I tell them wich Hive that's clear and not, and not hated for not following orders.

    Come and play with me on the Auria -insertfinnishwordhere- servers ( Use gamespy or something and search for Auria and it'll pop up 4-5 servers.

    BTW, I'm not finnish, I'm swedish, but I LOVE the players there ( Some people love me there too! <!--emo&:D--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
  • littlewildlittlewild Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9467Members
    Uh but grabbing a hive needs $.
    The marine team's first $100 bucks are gonna be blown on the portals, the armoury and the tf with at least 2 turrects. If you don't get the $ for the observatory for phase gates, your single hive isn't gonna do you much good because a single lerk can wipe out your heavy investment of a tf + 3 turrects at the empty hive as your marines can't reach there in time.

    Then again the alien can get the other empty hive and then proceed to own you with fades. On a map like hera with many res nodes, it is better to fast expand so that you can set up fire bases near the hives to seige them ASAP because siege cannons with phase gates are your best bet against an alien hive.
  • SpotterSpotter Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5255Members
    Bah, they are not very strategic <sp?>.

    Listen, if the marines mostly go for it, the aliens will try to stop you. If you can pull it off, great, if you can't, your going to get stuck somewhere.

    On hera, I go strait for reception, get the node there, and close off the secuirty door to halo room.

    I then open the other security door, take that hive, and siege halo room from right outisde the security door.

    If the aliens are there, they just wasted resources, because siege is taking it down, and then you can move in to halo room, or weld open the vent up high, and siege the next hive.

    Yes two resources are important, but generaly, the rooms are hard to defend, and it is easier to defend points to those rooms rather than the rooms them selves.
  • McMastersMcMasters Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8536Members, Constellation
    Littlewild - why are you buying turrets with your starting cash?

    Marines are great turrets in the beginning of the game. drop one pack of mines to slow the aliens down, and have two or three marines be turrets, whilst the others go and screw up an empty hive.
  • delordelor Join Date: 2002-12-05 Member: 10482Members
    edited December 2002
    There is one very real advantage to double resource rooms: you can defend two resource nodes at one time with the same amount of effort as you would normally dedicate to one. You only need to turret one area, and any marine in the area can cover both of them simultaneously. This is a much larger advantage than it could seem, especially if the aliens have players that wander around looking for unguarded resource nodes and taking them down. (turrets won't stop them, just slow them)

    Mind you, some resource double nodes are hard to hold (the holoroom especially, doubly so if you don't control the nearbye hive) so as always it's not a good strategy 100% of the time. However, they are more valuable than two separate nodes in most cases. (also, in the case of atmospheric processing and the reactor you get a good forward base by thier hive that is also reasonably close to your main base)
  • MILKMILK Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8969Members
    yeah i feel it same way ... two resources for price of one (almost ofcourse --> area is quite bigger to defend it so it needs more defence )
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    What is of greater import than actual RP sites is the total strategic significance of an area. Is it accessable by aliens via vents? Is it a junction? How much $ will you get for holding it? Is it close to the marine base? Is it close to a hive? These are the kinds of question you have to ask, then weigh the potential gains of that area against the potential costs of taking and holding that area.

    Ex: ns_bast. The aliens have started in the feedwater hive, and have therefore taken steam generation, tram tunnel, and likely atmospheric proccessing. What to do? Either take atmospheric back (access to initial hive, double spot, but costly to siege and defend) or take Main Aft Junction (MAJOR junction that can get to every hive AND marine base, single RP site, but no active hives believed to be nearby and tricky placement for turrets and TF) and take the engine room and possibly refinery.

    What to do?
  • littlewildlittlewild Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9467Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--McMasters+Dec 5 2002, 12:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (McMasters @ Dec 5 2002, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Littlewild - why are you buying turrets with your starting cash?

    Marines are great turrets in the beginning of the game. drop one pack of mines to slow the aliens down, and have two or three marines be turrets, whilst the others go and screw up an empty hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, assuming that they are willing to stay in base and defend for an extened period.
    If you play on pub servers often, you would realize that the comms don't trust their marines to stay and guard the base.
  • SpeedySpeedy Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7313Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--kah+Dec 4 2002, 01:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kah @ Dec 4 2002, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->double res = not important

    securing hives = important

    how come so many people do not realise this?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    kah, you are so right. It's all about the Hives. If the Marines can keep the Aliens from getting Fades, then they can easily win. The kicker is that every map except ns_caged and ns_hera has a resource nozzle in every Hive room, so not only do you deprive the Aliens of upgrades, but you get resources to boot.

    I will go even farther and claim that the Marines should go after the occupied Hive first with LMGs and a shotty or two. Game over in 2 minutes, assuming the Marines stick together and cover each other.

    Fear is the mind-killer. Don't let your fear of Skulks and Gorges kill you.
  • GeronimoGeronimo Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 11056Members
    The thing is, for every res point you cature, you need 3 turrets and a TF...

    in a dual res point oyu need only 1 TF and 5 turets, hence saving cash

    Problem is , that you need to rebuild those turrets TF and RTs alot more often...
  • BlueGhostBlueGhost Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10337Members
    NS_Hera is a bad example, the easiest way is to revolve your intire stratagy around processing, a single upgraded TF will give you siege coverage of both datacore and vent 3c hives. It is THE place on the map.

    Yes its somewhat cheap but then when such an easy path to victory is available who'd do anything else?

    Generally you need to distract the aliens from processing while you take it (at least while you get up the gate) but basically the second there's turrets and a gate there you'll win provided you can keep wealding everything in sight.

  • ArdescoArdesco Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7831Members
    Please note that on a great deal of maps, the double node area is vital, but not always necessary to the health and well being of the marines. Marines almost always need more than the nodes provided at their base, at the hive, etc, to put up any kind of effective offensive strike. The double node location in hera, for example, if held as a forward base can significantly cut the walking time your marines must make to get to some of the hives. In addition, when all the vents are welded up, the holoroom acts essentially as the front war zone, especially when fades roll around and you're about to equip your team with the good stuff. Instead of your main base getting pounded, its holoroom that's taking the flak, which is usually why commanders want double nodes protected.

    Also, a simple bit of math will help people realize that if you have to take ANY non-hive nodes, double nodes are the most efficient for the amount of cash you spend. For the price of 1 turret factory and a couple of turrets, you defend not one, but two resources. If you have just the marine spawn, and two hive nodes, the double node resources almost double your resource intake for the relatively simple cost of defending 1 location.

    Some maps, like caged, have two nodes in the center of the map that sometimes see a lot of heat. One of the nodes is protected from easy marine access by a weldable door, while the other one is just sitting in the open. If you're clever, you can send a jetpacking marine through the vent into the inaccesible node, plant some mines to stop skulks from trying to get in to morph to gorge and placing their own tower, and build the tower straight from there. The only real set of defense then comes from the open freight access node, but again, for the cost, 1 tf + turrets + mines = less expensive than 2 tfs and 2 sets of turrets.

    A commander shouldn't break his neck trying to secure these double nodes--sure, they're cost effective, but that hardly means they're strategically sound for holding. Most double nodes are large enough to have a lerk snipe silently away at defenses, or are very close to the front line due to their proximity to the hives--also, when one tf goes down, you just lost the defenses for TWO nodes, which is the point of the double node.

    Always build a phasegate at a double node if you intend to hold it, because aliens will find a way to get past your d and destroy that tf.

    A lot of double node locations have / are near vent locations. Get your experienced marines to put some mines in so the skulks will have a harder time launching a sneak attack against the double node region.

    Again, I reiterate: If the trouble of holding a double node isn't worth it, then don't. Just be sure to find some way to compensate by not taking the double node, for while it can be easier economically to achieve a solid income with a double node, it is by no means impossible without.
  • GirDraxonGirDraxon Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10536Members, Constellation
    Hera is the only double res room I'd be interested in taking for the Marines. On Tanith (Reactor Room) and uh.... Caged I think (Has feedwater, refinery hives, with double res in Atmospheric Processing), they are death traps. Whenever I'm Khaara I love it when the Marines spend a lot of time securing these spots, and my friends orient by causing as much havoc here as possible.

    As Marines, on (Caged?) Easiest hive to get directly opposite those double resource points. Go through airlock, secure outer area, step into hive, secure the vent going in. Then push for the Refinery. Securing all of that nets you 4 resource points and if you are covering 2 hives that's all the res you'll ever need. Trying to secure Atmospheric Processing may get you closer to Feedwater, but the West Hive is a much safer bet as is the passage from there to Refinery.

    On Tanith its the same thing, Reactor Room has multiple entrances and no relatively safe place. Often as a ninja tactic, you can skulkclimb up to the terrace that overlooks the entire room, evolve to Gorge, then build a couple offensive turrets and a couple def towers and occupy Marines for LONG periods of time. Marines can just as easily swamp Waste Handling, weld down vents, secure West Access Corridor and the main Handling Entrance, then its a short push Fusion. Securing West Access and Waste Handling nets you 3 res points, pushing through Cargo is 4 (if you even bother), and Fusion is 4 or 5. Again, with 4 Resource Points and 2 Hives = teh win as long as your Marines only use Phase Gates and stick to both Hives till you get em HA/HMGs.
  • ImaNewbieImaNewbie Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10207Members
    I think holoroom is a waste. Aliens will always get rid of it somehow. I think it's best you take other, safer resources first, secure a hive or 2, then go back for holoroom.

    Data core is a good choice as the 1st hive to secure. As mentioned earlier, this cuts the map in half for aliens.

    If data core is their main hive, make data core your 2nd hive to secure(usually they'll be at the 3rd hive building up by the time you're done securing 1 hive).
  • BlueGhostBlueGhost Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10337Members
    Why would you secure vents OR data when you can secure processing, its a res point and can siege two hives!


    As for marines needing masses of res to get an offence if you've locked two hives you can make your offence at your own leasure.
  • FADEtoBLACK357FADEtoBLACK357 Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 11087Members
    Double Resource nodes are definatly good, but of course thier hard as hell to defend. On maps like Tanith, Hera and Bast the doubles can be easy to defend, Especially Hera, but it requires good men, a welder, and some well placed defence.
    In Holo, do this after you get atleast one hive, get a warp portal there, it's in the middle of the map which brings everything to a shorter walking distance, get a marine to weld the security door, cutting of the rear, and then get him to weld the two vents shut, thus, leaving the two halls below and the door above the only access points, put some turrets to defend the two bottem openings, maybe a few mines that are well placed, so sulks can;t just rush, and a few up above on the walkways, also putting a few mines near the door, thus, cutting off the access points, put acouple of sieges so they can't force thier way in by towers, and send your marines on a hunt for a second hive.

    For tanith I usually find it ez to secure the Reactor Room. hide the TF behind the crates, put a <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> up on one, and build turrets around the nozzles, keeping them all inside the red caution tape on the floor, then proceed with the hives, periodically check back with R Room and make repairs. The hives I find are easier in this map to take by force than others, lots of good <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> spots around them, take a hive, the bugs will usually be occupied by trying to take that hive, and upgrade, then send a force to pick at another hive, while the others defend that hive, it may split your forces, but it'll split thiers too, if they want to keep that hive, and take another.

    Bast is the hardest in my opinion, While Processing is closer to home base, it's close to feedwater too, and the bugs have just as many access points as you do, i usually don't bother, haven't found a good reason to defend, unless i'm fighting some inexperienced players, take two hives, then come back and take processing later, leaving the bugs occupied with trying to get a second hive, and keeping the resistance down to a minimium.

    While this may seem good tactics, or bad, the situation always is different each game, the bugs may be good, or crappy, and ditto to the Marines, If your team is slow, or thiers are, every little thing counts in NS, please tell me if you have any suggestions, or if I made a mistake somewhere.
  • Dead_DragonDead_Dragon Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10972Members
    edited December 2002
    It's possible to simply use the presence of double resource nodes to your advantage. You want them sure, but you also know your enemy wants them.

    Using the Holoroom as an example. Assuming you've taken and secured Data Core Delta, have a group of marines hold out in the Holoroom. If there are alien structures there, take them out. Draw the enemies attention to that point.

    With an upgraded armory and a phase gate in Reception, you can keep the enemy engaged in the Holoroom, distracting his Fades and Skulks and whatnot.

    Leaving you free to send two heavliy kitted out marines around the back to take out the remaining barely defended hives from behind. Should the enemy realise what you're up to, he has a choice.

    He either gives up Holoroom to save his hives, giving you a massive resources advantage, or he concentrates his forces in the Holoroom, risking his Hives by trusting his Offence Chamber defence.

    FYI, I've won this map twice using this tactic. Your marines will hate you for it until they realise that all the Fades have suddenly disapeared and they've got a clear run to the Hive.
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