<!--quoteo(post=1762171:date=Apr 1 2010, 10:12 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Apr 1 2010, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damage to armour only is a good idea for a weapon, assuming the armour system is similar to HL1 style and not just one number as in TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm. I think it's a good idea either to simplify the HP system into one big pool OR to add extra depth to the separate HP/armour pools. Right now it has some minute depth in regen decisions (regening armour is double the effective!), but otherwise it's mostly just hard to read and even misinformative if you don't know the armour mechnanics.
It's legit for Marines because it means you need to be repaired in two different ways to be brought back to full strength, requiring both additional res and time. For Aliens it's basically just health by another name.
I don't really know why they felt compelled to display half its actual effectiveness. I didn't even figure that one out for a few months, and I read up a fair bit on the game before I started playing.
You guys have not one, but two chainguns at the same time. The siege cannon can MOVE now. There's a flamethrower. You have a grenade launcher attached to your LMG. We haven't heard anything about the abilities aliens have. Oh wait, gorge belly slide. Lerk spikes are back, at the cost of biting. Yet you think they are overpowered? They need to be slower? Are you people insane?
Make the damn noob weapons and make server decide if they're alowed or not xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who wouldn't want an ns1 remake? It's atmospheric and fun, it's only problem was that classic servers eventually became scarce and you were forced to play avp style combat games. If you want a mindless blood orgy, play cod. NS is what rebellion and monolith wish they could've made.
<!--quoteo(post=1767641:date=Apr 18 2010, 10:54 AM:name=Lemming Jesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lemming Jesus @ Apr 18 2010, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys have not one, but two chainguns at the same time. The siege cannon can MOVE now. There's a flamethrower. You have a grenade launcher attached to your LMG. We haven't heard anything about the abilities aliens have. Oh wait, gorge belly slide. Lerk spikes are back, at the cost of biting. Yet you think they are overpowered? They need to be slower? Are you people insane?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whos you guys? aliens are also getting a fair bit with ns2, so far we have gorge defensive modes, skulks starting off with leap, and having a commander to help guide them and onos being invulnerable to damage from the front when in defensive mode, im pretty sure 2 miniguns wont do anything to something making its way slowly to it being invulnerable, roles are changing, gorge aint the builder no more, welding seems to have been forgotten, we dont know how powerful a fade is atm, we dont know how effective those spikes are atm, we dont know much at all except for some basics.
<!--quoteo(post=1767648:date=Apr 17 2010, 07:48 PM:name=Tha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tha @ Apr 17 2010, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->whos you guys? aliens are also getting a fair bit with ns2, so far we have gorge defensive modes, skulks starting off with leap, and having a commander to help guide them and onos being invulnerable to damage from the front when in defensive mode, im pretty sure 2 miniguns wont do anything to something making its way slowly to it being invulnerable, roles are changing, gorge aint the builder no more, welding seems to have been forgotten, we dont know how powerful a fade is atm, we dont know how effective those spikes are atm, we dont know much at all except for some basics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Defensive mode? Where we stand still and take it? Like what you guys want more of. The only reason we have it is because of the massive firepower the marines are packing. Welding forgotten? WHAT? You can weld DOORS shut. The onos has to bash through it or we wait for the infestation to break it. For a small amount of resources, you can cut off entire parts of the map which require an expensive upper lifeform or waiting on however the infestation chooses to spread. We don't even know if there is a Fade. That's exactly my point. We don't know but marine players are calling for nerfs already.
"Marine players" or "alien players" is irrelevant; no one knows what stats the game is going to use for its weapons, therefore it is strange to ask for nerfs. No one even knows for certain what is going to be in the game. Saying that welding is superior to DI and Onos is unreasonable without knowing how fast DI spreads, how much welders cost, the locations of weld spots. the size of maps, the cost/utility of an Onos, etc.
However, what one can reasonably ask for are concepts and ideas, things that can be balanced through stats later on. Which is why this subforum exists.
I want weapons that are less pure upgrade and more partial sidegrade; an increase in one aspect should be met with a [partial] decrease in another aspect. Likewise, I want weapons that encourage group play and discourage lone wolf syndrome*...from BOTH teams. Specialized weapons seem to be a workable solution if conceived correctly*.
Suggesting a weapon that...
-Does ***-all by itself. -Is, with teamwork, a force-multiplier against big aliens. -Is almost useless against smaller aliens. -Requires skill to use.
...would seem to encourage teamwork for both aliens and humans; since each "anti-heavy" weapon would cut into the human "anti-light" weapon supply in a group, humans would need to balance their army composition to fight effectively (the same, of course, applies to the aliens against the humans). This would make tech patterns far less linear*, and would make upgrades/weapons more of a tradeoff.
Specialized weaponry would also further specialize roles; this is probably a good thing. Specialized roles allows people to gain comparative advantages in different areas of the game. This allows new players to make themselves semi-useful (as opposed to utter cannon fodder) by focusing on one or two roles that a better player might, relatively speaking, be "worse" in**.
In short? I want anti-heavy weapons not to punish heavy aliens, but to create more specialization. Adding anti-heavy weapons that do not increase specialization and/or encourage teamwork would be...idiotic. And, of course, I support the exact same thing for the aliens.***
*Increasing in tech no longer means that the enemy lower tech becomes as...obsolescent.
**comparatively "worse" does not have to be "worse" in terms of absolute advantage; it just means that the "better" player is better off doing something else...basic economics.
***If there's a way to make specializations more asymmetric across Marines/Khara lines, I'd be very, very happy.
<!--quoteo(post=1767790:date=Apr 19 2010, 08:25 AM:name=acker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (acker @ Apr 19 2010, 08:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Marine players" or "alien players" is irrelevant; no one knows what stats the game is going to use for its weapons, therefore it is strange to ask for nerfs. No one even knows for certain what is going to be in the game. Saying that welding is superior to DI and Onos is unreasonable without knowing how fast DI spreads, how much welders cost, the locations of weld spots. the size of maps, the cost/utility of an Onos, etc.
However, what one can reasonably ask for are concepts and ideas, things that can be balanced through stats later on. Which is why this subforum exists.
<b>I want weapons that are less pure upgrade and more partial sidegrade; an increase in one aspect should be met with a [partial] decrease in another aspect. Likewise, I want weapons that encourage group play and discourage lone wolf syndrome*...from BOTH teams. Specialized weapons seem to be a workable solution if conceived correctly*.</b> Suggesting a weapon that...
-Does ***-all by itself. -Is, with teamwork, a force-multiplier against big aliens. -Is almost useless against smaller aliens. -Requires skill to use.
...would seem to encourage teamwork for both aliens and humans; since each "anti-heavy" weapon would cut into the human "anti-light" weapon supply in a group, humans would need to balance their army composition to fight effectively (the same, of course, applies to the aliens against the humans). This would make tech patterns far less linear*, and would make upgrades/weapons more of a tradeoff.
Specialized weaponry would also further specialize roles; this is probably a good thing. Specialized roles allows people to gain comparative advantages in different areas of the game. This allows new players to make themselves semi-useful (as opposed to utter cannon fodder) by focusing on one or two roles that a better player might, relatively speaking, be "worse" in**.
In short? I want anti-heavy weapons not to punish heavy aliens, but to create more specialization. Adding anti-heavy weapons that do not increase specialization and/or encourage teamwork would be...idiotic. And, of course, I support the exact same thing for the aliens.***
*Increasing in tech no longer means that the enemy lower tech becomes as...obsolescent.
**comparatively "worse" does not have to be "worse" in terms of absolute advantage; it just means that the "better" player is better off doing something else...basic economics.
***If there's a way to make specializations more asymmetric across Marines/Khara lines, I'd be very, very happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already have this in ns1. You trade in your shotgun for an hmg, you lose frontload and structural damage, but you gain rpm and clip size. You trade in again for a grenade launcher, you gain structural and AE damage, but lose almost all of your direct damage and rpm. These weapons are already arguably all sidegrades, and with flamethrowers and miniguns coming, what more could you ask for?
Having a weapon that's completely useless if you're by yourself is.... useless. Forced teamwork is not good. Amplifying teamwork is good.
For example, in NS1 the GL is not for the faint of skill. It was still useful against skulks, and with a JP you could really rip Aliens a new one. However, its primary purpose was the extra damage to buildings. So, plunk one of these down and have that Marine go around smashing through OC walls was amazing, but they could still knock off Aliens if needed (just hard to get right, but there's nothing like landing a nade on a Skulk mid-leap).
This is exactly what we'd want in NS2. Weapons that amplify teamwork and hold a niche position. However, being completely useless unless your in a team or only working on certain Aliens is stupid.
Let's look at SC tech, specifically the Terran. As you progress, you don't have strictly better weapons. Tanks are not strictly better than Vultures. For one, they cost more, do reduced damage to small units, and are immobile as heck. Plus, they can't do crap against air units. So, what happens? You see either Goliaths or MM mixed in to help offset this. However, they have some of the best DPS and range in the game, plus splash makes them Dragoon and Hydra massacre weapons.
This is a great example of further tech being useful, but not strictly better than previous tech.
However, beware of falling into the trap of Empires where there's so many diverging techs for so many niches that it takes forever to understand the tech tree properly. There needs to be one trunk of research with several offshoots and not several trunks. Referring to SC1 again, Firebats are a niche unit designed to completely dominate melee units like Zerglings and Zealots. However, they're a small sidestep and don't force you extra tech really. You should have gotten an Academy anyways for the Stim and U-shells.
How does this all relate to NS2? Making a pure anti-onos/fade weapon is BAD. We rely on each player to be useful. We can't spam an extra 20 bots to soak up the firepower and fill niches. Instead, niche weapons like the GL should open up as a sidestep tech that are still useful in general but they give up generic usefulness to deal with niche problems. The HMG+GL dichotomy is a great way to encourage teamwork. They compliment each others weakness and amplify overall a squad of Marines. However, individually they aren't useless.
Really since the two niches are already well defined, I see no reason to make further weapons. We've covered the two major divergent paths. Adding extra techs are a possibility, say if different types of ammo are allowed having special anti-armor ammo would be clever (see fire/electrical/corrosive weapons in Borderlands).
It's possible that a double action (as in two seperate weapons in one) shotgun would work wonders, but its use would increase. when i played marine I allways asked for shirtguns whenever the res was available, so this would make the default gun go under, even if you'd require three researches (shotgun - modification unlock - special ammo / bullet modification). Spreading it to every weapon without a seperate firemode (yet) would imbalance the game towards marines unless a major drawback is introduced, which would make that option almost useless except lategame where aliens are strong anyway (if they could endure out of their own power, not because the mCom leashed them up like puppies).
Separate ammos would be weapon specific for the most part. Except maybe LMG versus HMG could get same ammo types.
These all assume we're still on the NS1 system of hp+armor, shotgun, GL, hmg weaponry.
Some ideas: -Napalm grenades do damage over time and over larger area, flechette reduce healing (both lower base damage) -Armor Piercing ammo versus Shredder Ammo (Mass Effect 1 ammo types anyone?) -Double shot Shotgun for vastly reduce accuracy.
This used to be twice as long until I realized that we both agreed that specialization was good, generalization was bad, and that we disagreed on the amount of specialization necessary for a good game; I think anti-large-alien specialization at the cost of anti-light-alien firepower is beneficial, and you don't. Which is perfectly acceptable, for its the job of the devs to decide that.
One thing I'll say, though, and this is about Starcraft.
Vultures were great against zealots, but were utter crap against Dragoons. Siege Tanks melted Dragoons, but sucked against Zealots. Therefore, players used both Siege Tanks and Vultures when doing a push, and had to tailor-make the army composition to the ENEMY's zealot/goon combo (and vice versa). Part of the reason why Starcraft was so great was that some units were cripplingly overspecialized (defiler, reaver), forcing players to bend upper tech units to enemy lower tech units if the composition wasn't just right. EMP may have been utterly useless by itself, but it DOMINATED through its principal use in TvP*; shutting down a <u>single</u> unit, Arbiters. Things that are almost-useless by themselves are perfectly acceptable.
Starcraft went much further into keeping high-tier from being a no-brainer than NS, too. Zealot bombs severely punished fast tank pushes, Zerglings massacred Dragoons. In certain situations, Marines could even beat Lurkers (figuring out how to do this was one of Boxer's claims to fame). Even before resource costs of teching were taken into account, low-tier could, in cases, be super effective against high-tier. In NS, low-tier simply does not work that way. And specialized sidegrades are one way to change that.
Well, a partial lie, I'll talk a little about NS2 directly. Forced teamwork through weapons is impossible in this game, where everyone can buy their own weapons. Therefore, sidegrades and thus, specialization, are left to the player to decide on. To say that adding another option forces people to do things is incorrect, for people can choose if they want to be effective on one thing at the expense of another. It does, however, encourage teamwork; everyone likes winning, and in certain situations, a sidegrade can help you win. Or, if you make the incorrect decision with sidegrade selection, help you lose. But that's the fun of it, with sidegrades; since one faces more-equal gain and loss, it's impossible to simply pick and expect, let alone garner, gain.
*A part-lie. It was also used in some cases to take down Protoss shields...which was, once again, useless by itself, for shields regenerated quite quickly. But that didn't happen that often, for EMP's radius was somewhat smaller than the EMP graphic looked like.
My main problem is that you're over using the SC1, a pure RTS where you using 2-3 specialized units is worth it in your army of doom, to a FPS/RTS hybrid where each player needs to feel useful. Perhaps you aren't, but it's a cautionary warning against going too specialized.
In a general response to 'most' of this thread and community:
Yes, sure lets destroy the game in an entirety of itself for the aliens, no not just the aliens but the Vets. Thats a jolly good idea, good show young-bloods. I'm glad i have no future plans to play this game as of right now or at all in the future, I really am.
A few of you are smiling, because they cater to you. The people who F4 when they have to play aliens. The people looking for a EZ button, quick kill or advantage. Those of you smile when they heard they removed devour and other things due to your complaints.
Lets give you an example of what happened: The lot of you whine to remove devour, it gets removed. Ok, but also HA gets removed. General concensus says "Oh NO! GIVE US BACK OUR HEAVY ARMOR!!!..." You get it back; though when we, the people who play aliens a majority of the time ask for devour back we get flamed and everyone comes up with their own excuses as to why it should never see the light of day again.
"Well, one of them being it takes too long. You get devoured, then you get to go through a respawn time." O.M.G
I know its hard on you to deal with the mistake after trying to knife an onos, or not watching your MAP or using your ears or BRAIN. Devour isnt hard to dodge. No reason to have removed it entirely. But this game is catered to you, the lazy, the ones who want that EZ button on your shoulder called a lazor cannon and back-up lazor eye beams just incase it gets to rough so anything you look at will melt.
Go, have fun with your pew-pew. Alot of you are trying to turn this into a game where its pointless to even try being alien. Soon enough if these ideas are catered to there will be 'nobody wanting to be alien' Much less play the game. Dont worry though, for you spoiled gamers will get AI bots to laugh at. A hollow victory imo but one at the very least for you.
Sure, flame me. Sure, erase this post mods, report me to them please. But it wont change what the EZ-mode gamers, the whiners and young-blood are doing to this game. Ruining for the vets. Ruined it for me. But i digress, I'm done caring actually so i don't give a flying heck.
(Btw, if you get pounced with full hp and your team cant save you, you gotta wait... then you gotta wait for them to rescue you if at all in l4d1 and l4d2... so... whats the deal? Its just like devour, if you shoot at the onos enough chasing it with a jp n such. Guess what? It dies, and your saved.)
<!--quoteo(post=1771354:date=May 15 2010, 04:31 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ May 15 2010, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Btw, if you get pounced with full hp and your team cant save you, you gotta wait... then you gotta wait for them to rescue you if at all in l4d1 and l4d2... so... whats the deal? Its just like devour, if you shoot at the onos enough chasing it with a jp n such. Guess what? It dies, and your saved.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um... what's this rage about?
Also, people excuse L4D because it's considered 1) less competitive and 2) ZOMG AI ZOMBIES. BTW, I hate forced teamwork.
Its a rant about how they cater to the marines and remove nessicery counters just because some kid cant go pew-pew more and increase his DPS in this game. For the love of god young-bloods this aint WoW >.>.
This little bit of rage is kinda from the whole time till they started NS2 and up till now. The fact the changes they are making have made so many people I know just silently just say meh and leave and drop their hope on the sequel to ns1, or just not care as much. The suggestions to quote unquote 'nerf' the aliens without ever seeing it from the other side of the fence. Yes i made the reference to the left 4 dead series, and no they are not all AI. Play versus once and a little while. People on both sides want to look and feel powerful, people on both sides want to feel usefull but all the suggestions I see here or atleast a majority of them all just go in general for the benefits of the marines saying something like "ME WANT AN I-WIN-LAZOR-BEEMZ-CANNON GIMMEH! and then just forsake the game-play of the alien side, which might just reduce the 'original' fanbase's(?) desire to go alien. Which with less veteran aliens or skilled aliens there will be more marine team stacking and less real competition. Your saying l4d2 dosent have any real competitiveness? A few of the people i know would slap you, hand you a controller and tell you to bring your friends into a l4d1 or 2 VS match.
All im saying is there needs to be balance... a type of harmony with counters, if you remove one thing. Like devour and whine to keep HA and get it back without the latter; Whats left to counter HA? Was this really thought out? From what i read and forgive me on this because i just about silently-raged and left these forums for about half a year but um... "No...?"
Forced team-work is what Aliens and marines in this game was originally intended to forgo, its like socializing. If you go up against a fade yourself in NS1 your screwed 7 out of 10 times unless your a good shot or he/she has no skill or even better, you are ranboing and wander from your team you get your face chewed off. Its not all about being rambo at least thats what i loved about this game and thats what people like you(?) and TC really aren't getting. No its not just 'me' who likes this, nor am i asking this game to cater to the alien side once in a while which will never happen until hell freezes over. Alot of the veteran players who I happened to do competitive matches with back in the day all say the same thing. NS1 is a "team game". Not a OH LOOK AT MAH WEAPON ALIENZ AND FEEER.
Either way, i dont care. I've moved on mostly and im playing LP2 because I like the feel of the 'almost' forced teamwork just like how NS1 has. If you have skill, the game rewards you greatly, and if you have teamwork then its that much easyer. But i digress, I am not bringing LP2 into this because people think it sucks because they have to... omg work together D:
And yes this is opinionated, and alot of you will have your own. And sure it will be alot of you who flame me maybe but does it mean i'm completely wrong?
A game like NS has to have a lot of forced teamwork honestly. It was one of the good aspects about it, but it's not the only aspect. Give every player too much individual power and you get 100 rambos. However, doesn't mean I don't want the individual to be capable of turning the tide. I still want to see a single godly marine kill 4 skulks with an LMG and pistol and a godly fade rack up 20+ kills in a life. I just want to have some codependency and reason to stick together unless you're a truly godly player.
<!--quoteo(post=1771375:date=May 16 2010, 12:32 AM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ May 16 2010, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A game like NS has to have a lot of forced teamwork honestly. It was one of the good aspects about it, but it's not the only aspect. Give every player too much individual power and you get 100 rambos. However, doesn't mean I don't want the individual to be capable of turning the tide. I still want to see a single godly marine kill 4 skulks with an LMG and pistol and a godly fade rack up 20+ kills in a life. I just want to have some codependency and reason to stick together unless you're a truly godly player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're on the right track, but let me clarify my position.
I don't want forced teamwork where everyone is insta gibbed if you're alone. See the zomg incaps for L4D. However, I didn't say I don't want ANY teamwork. Heck, that's the best part of NS. Any good player can tell you 2 Marines are way more powerful than 2 solo Marines. Almost exponentially so. And you instantly realize that if you run off alone you're at a severe disadvantage. However, holding the line alone and pistol whipping that last Skulk is an amazing feeling, just like running into 3 Marines with Leap, forcing them to waste bullets, and nomming them to death because you're JUST THAT GOOD. And even if you run off alone and get picked off, you at least had a chance to fight back and maybe (unlikely) come out ahead.
So yes, I completely agree. Codependency is great and awesome and should be enforced. However, taking forced teamwork to the extreme = RAGE. A solo Marine should still have a decent chance of coming out ahead via skill, just as a solo Skulk versus 2 Marines has a chance.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
There better be assists this time around. Nothing is more aggravating in ns1 than pumping your hmg into an onos and have someone else get complete credit for it.
do you really need official credit in game to feel accomplished when you helped take down an onos? only time i truly cared was xmenu combat where the killer gets the XP and if you're not near him you lose out on the leech.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1771458:date=May 17 2010, 01:33 AM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ May 17 2010, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->do you really need official credit in game to feel accomplished when you helped take down an onos? only time i truly cared was xmenu combat where the killer gets the XP and if you're not near him you lose out on the leech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously. Especially when the person in the team tends to wait for the final shot and brag about his awesome kill count.
<!--quoteo(post=1771428:date=May 16 2010, 10:17 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ May 16 2010, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So yes, I completely agree. Codependency is great and awesome and should be enforced. However, taking forced teamwork to the extreme = RAGE. A solo Marine should still have a decent chance of coming out ahead via skill, just as a solo Skulk versus 2 Marines has a chance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the present marine armor system has a nice touch of it. A single marine can heal up to 100 HP, be extremely useful and dangerous in a correct positioning, but the lack of armor regen and ability to cover multiple entrances effectively makes him less useful and expensive to supply in the long run. A quick solo marine can cut off a fleeing fade or stall the skulks for 10 seconds, but he alone isn't winning that much unless the rest of the team is in a position to do something.
<!--quoteo(post=1756623:date=Mar 2 2010, 09:16 PM:name=Tha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tha @ Mar 2 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An idea just sparked my mind, in games where you have fades that keep coming into a base focus killing one marine and going through and escape route, there should be some equipment marine can purchase from armories to assist in fade/onos killing, not direct damage but more of support, such as a netgun, a biogun that launches a poisonous material to a target, or a tagger that allows you to track it on radar similar to parasite. My personal favourite however is a 5 second redeployable electric barrier.
Say a fade is harassing your base and taking a certain path out, you can get a marine and have him set up the line and at the click of a button as the fade makes his exit route a 5 second barrier will come up that nothing can pass, he can then be cornered by marines and it will make it so much easier to kill it. same thing for an onos, limiting its routes, say you know the onos is running rampant at the north section, get about 3-5 marines to push it into a hallway where they have set up a trap, it becomes a dead end and the onos trapped and unable to recieve help for 5 seconds, either fight or die, no option to run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that you're thinking, but that means aliens get something that completely immobilized marines and keeps them from doing damage too. did you think of that smart guy? it creates a stalemate when it's finally time to invade the last base.
You've obviously just created an uber weapon for destroying the opposing forces making their time/resources completely obsolete good job lolol
Even if you did add it to both sides, the marines are all ranged so it's still marine sided.
Good way to piss players off and quit the game completely until it's fixed/removed
Comments
Hmm. I think it's a good idea either to simplify the HP system into one big pool OR to add extra depth to the separate HP/armour pools. Right now it has some minute depth in regen decisions (regening armour is double the effective!), but otherwise it's mostly just hard to read and even misinformative if you don't know the armour mechnanics.
I don't really know why they felt compelled to display half its actual effectiveness. I didn't even figure that one out for a few months, and I read up a fair bit on the game before I started playing.
Eventually shotgun for fades, HMG against onos. Jetpacks are always nice too.
Make the damn noob weapons and make server decide if they're alowed or not xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who wouldn't want an ns1 remake? It's atmospheric and fun, it's only problem was that classic servers eventually became scarce and you were forced to play avp style combat games.
If you want a mindless blood orgy, play cod. NS is what rebellion and monolith wish they could've made.
whos you guys? aliens are also getting a fair bit with ns2, so far we have gorge defensive modes, skulks starting off with leap, and having a commander to help guide them and onos being invulnerable to damage from the front when in defensive mode, im pretty sure 2 miniguns wont do anything to something making its way slowly to it being invulnerable, roles are changing, gorge aint the builder no more, welding seems to have been forgotten, we dont know how powerful a fade is atm, we dont know how effective those spikes are atm, we dont know much at all except for some basics.
Defensive mode? Where we stand still and take it? Like what you guys want more of. The only reason we have it is because of the massive firepower the marines are packing. Welding forgotten? WHAT? You can weld DOORS shut. The onos has to bash through it or we wait for the infestation to break it. For a small amount of resources, you can cut off entire parts of the map which require an expensive upper lifeform or waiting on however the infestation chooses to spread. We don't even know if there is a Fade. That's exactly my point. We don't know but marine players are calling for nerfs already.
However, what one can reasonably ask for are concepts and ideas, things that can be balanced through stats later on. Which is why this subforum exists.
I want weapons that are less pure upgrade and more partial sidegrade; an increase in one aspect should be met with a [partial] decrease in another aspect. Likewise, I want weapons that encourage group play and discourage lone wolf syndrome*...from BOTH teams. Specialized weapons seem to be a workable solution if conceived correctly*.
Suggesting a weapon that...
-Does ***-all by itself.
-Is, with teamwork, a force-multiplier against big aliens.
-Is almost useless against smaller aliens.
-Requires skill to use.
...would seem to encourage teamwork for both aliens and humans; since each "anti-heavy" weapon would cut into the human "anti-light" weapon supply in a group, humans would need to balance their army composition to fight effectively (the same, of course, applies to the aliens against the humans). This would make tech patterns far less linear*, and would make upgrades/weapons more of a tradeoff.
Specialized weaponry would also further specialize roles; this is probably a good thing. Specialized roles allows people to gain comparative advantages in different areas of the game. This allows new players to make themselves semi-useful (as opposed to utter cannon fodder) by focusing on one or two roles that a better player might, relatively speaking, be "worse" in**.
In short? I want anti-heavy weapons not to punish heavy aliens, but to create more specialization. Adding anti-heavy weapons that do not increase specialization and/or encourage teamwork would be...idiotic. And, of course, I support the exact same thing for the aliens.***
*Increasing in tech no longer means that the enemy lower tech becomes as...obsolescent.
**comparatively "worse" does not have to be "worse" in terms of absolute advantage; it just means that the "better" player is better off doing something else...basic economics.
***If there's a way to make specializations more asymmetric across Marines/Khara lines, I'd be very, very happy.
However, what one can reasonably ask for are concepts and ideas, things that can be balanced through stats later on. Which is why this subforum exists.
<b>I want weapons that are less pure upgrade and more partial sidegrade; an increase in one aspect should be met with a [partial] decrease in another aspect. Likewise, I want weapons that encourage group play and discourage lone wolf syndrome*...from BOTH teams. Specialized weapons seem to be a workable solution if conceived correctly*.</b>
Suggesting a weapon that...
-Does ***-all by itself.
-Is, with teamwork, a force-multiplier against big aliens.
-Is almost useless against smaller aliens.
-Requires skill to use.
...would seem to encourage teamwork for both aliens and humans; since each "anti-heavy" weapon would cut into the human "anti-light" weapon supply in a group, humans would need to balance their army composition to fight effectively (the same, of course, applies to the aliens against the humans). This would make tech patterns far less linear*, and would make upgrades/weapons more of a tradeoff.
Specialized weaponry would also further specialize roles; this is probably a good thing. Specialized roles allows people to gain comparative advantages in different areas of the game. This allows new players to make themselves semi-useful (as opposed to utter cannon fodder) by focusing on one or two roles that a better player might, relatively speaking, be "worse" in**.
In short? I want anti-heavy weapons not to punish heavy aliens, but to create more specialization. Adding anti-heavy weapons that do not increase specialization and/or encourage teamwork would be...idiotic. And, of course, I support the exact same thing for the aliens.***
*Increasing in tech no longer means that the enemy lower tech becomes as...obsolescent.
**comparatively "worse" does not have to be "worse" in terms of absolute advantage; it just means that the "better" player is better off doing something else...basic economics.
***If there's a way to make specializations more asymmetric across Marines/Khara lines, I'd be very, very happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already have this in ns1. You trade in your shotgun for an hmg, you lose frontload and structural damage, but you gain rpm and clip size. You trade in again for a grenade launcher, you gain structural and AE damage, but lose almost all of your direct damage and rpm. These weapons are already arguably all sidegrades, and with flamethrowers and miniguns coming, what more could you ask for?
Having a weapon that's completely useless if you're by yourself is.... useless. Forced teamwork is not good. Amplifying teamwork is good.
For example, in NS1 the GL is not for the faint of skill. It was still useful against skulks, and with a JP you could really rip Aliens a new one. However, its primary purpose was the extra damage to buildings. So, plunk one of these down and have that Marine go around smashing through OC walls was amazing, but they could still knock off Aliens if needed (just hard to get right, but there's nothing like landing a nade on a Skulk mid-leap).
This is exactly what we'd want in NS2. Weapons that amplify teamwork and hold a niche position. However, being completely useless unless your in a team or only working on certain Aliens is stupid.
Let's look at SC tech, specifically the Terran. As you progress, you don't have strictly better weapons. Tanks are not strictly better than Vultures. For one, they cost more, do reduced damage to small units, and are immobile as heck. Plus, they can't do crap against air units. So, what happens? You see either Goliaths or MM mixed in to help offset this. However, they have some of the best DPS and range in the game, plus splash makes them Dragoon and Hydra massacre weapons.
This is a great example of further tech being useful, but not strictly better than previous tech.
However, beware of falling into the trap of Empires where there's so many diverging techs for so many niches that it takes forever to understand the tech tree properly. There needs to be one trunk of research with several offshoots and not several trunks. Referring to SC1 again, Firebats are a niche unit designed to completely dominate melee units like Zerglings and Zealots. However, they're a small sidestep and don't force you extra tech really. You should have gotten an Academy anyways for the Stim and U-shells.
How does this all relate to NS2? Making a pure anti-onos/fade weapon is BAD. We rely on each player to be useful. We can't spam an extra 20 bots to soak up the firepower and fill niches. Instead, niche weapons like the GL should open up as a sidestep tech that are still useful in general but they give up generic usefulness to deal with niche problems. The HMG+GL dichotomy is a great way to encourage teamwork. They compliment each others weakness and amplify overall a squad of Marines. However, individually they aren't useless.
Really since the two niches are already well defined, I see no reason to make further weapons. We've covered the two major divergent paths. Adding extra techs are a possibility, say if different types of ammo are allowed having special anti-armor ammo would be clever (see fire/electrical/corrosive weapons in Borderlands).
Spreading it to every weapon without a seperate firemode (yet) would imbalance the game towards marines unless a major drawback is introduced, which would make that option almost useless except lategame where aliens are strong anyway (if they could endure out of their own power, not because the mCom leashed them up like puppies).
These all assume we're still on the NS1 system of hp+armor, shotgun, GL, hmg weaponry.
Some ideas:
-Napalm grenades do damage over time and over larger area, flechette reduce healing (both lower base damage)
-Armor Piercing ammo versus Shredder Ammo (Mass Effect 1 ammo types anyone?)
-Double shot Shotgun for vastly reduce accuracy.
etc.
One thing I'll say, though, and this is about Starcraft.
Vultures were great against zealots, but were utter crap against Dragoons. Siege Tanks melted Dragoons, but sucked against Zealots. Therefore, players used both Siege Tanks and Vultures when doing a push, and had to tailor-make the army composition to the ENEMY's zealot/goon combo (and vice versa). Part of the reason why Starcraft was so great was that some units were cripplingly overspecialized (defiler, reaver), forcing players to bend upper tech units to enemy lower tech units if the composition wasn't just right. EMP may have been utterly useless by itself, but it DOMINATED through its principal use in TvP*; shutting down a <u>single</u> unit, Arbiters. Things that are almost-useless by themselves are perfectly acceptable.
Starcraft went much further into keeping high-tier from being a no-brainer than NS, too. Zealot bombs severely punished fast tank pushes, Zerglings massacred Dragoons. In certain situations, Marines could even beat Lurkers (figuring out how to do this was one of Boxer's claims to fame). Even before resource costs of teching were taken into account, low-tier could, in cases, be super effective against high-tier. In NS, low-tier simply does not work that way. And specialized sidegrades are one way to change that.
Well, a partial lie, I'll talk a little about NS2 directly. Forced teamwork through weapons is impossible in this game, where everyone can buy their own weapons. Therefore, sidegrades and thus, specialization, are left to the player to decide on. To say that adding another option forces people to do things is incorrect, for people can choose if they want to be effective on one thing at the expense of another. It does, however, encourage teamwork; everyone likes winning, and in certain situations, a sidegrade can help you win. Or, if you make the incorrect decision with sidegrade selection, help you lose. But that's the fun of it, with sidegrades; since one faces more-equal gain and loss, it's impossible to simply pick and expect, let alone garner, gain.
*A part-lie. It was also used in some cases to take down Protoss shields...which was, once again, useless by itself, for shields regenerated quite quickly. But that didn't happen that often, for EMP's radius was somewhat smaller than the EMP graphic looked like.
Yes, sure lets destroy the game in an entirety of itself for the aliens, no not just the aliens but the Vets. Thats a jolly good idea, good show young-bloods. I'm glad i have no future plans to play this game as of right now or at all in the future, I really am.
A few of you are smiling, because they cater to you. The people who F4 when they have to play aliens. The people looking for a EZ button, quick kill or advantage. Those of you smile when they heard they removed devour and other things due to your complaints.
Lets give you an example of what happened: The lot of you whine to remove devour, it gets removed. Ok, but also HA gets removed. General concensus says "Oh NO! GIVE US BACK OUR HEAVY ARMOR!!!..." You get it back; though when we, the people who play aliens a majority of the time ask for devour back we get flamed and everyone comes up with their own excuses as to why it should never see the light of day again.
"Well, one of them being it takes too long. You get devoured, then you get to go through a respawn time." O.M.G
I know its hard on you to deal with the mistake after trying to knife an onos, or not watching your MAP or using your ears or BRAIN. Devour isnt hard to dodge. No reason to have removed it entirely. But this game is catered to you, the lazy, the ones who want that EZ button on your shoulder called a lazor cannon and back-up lazor eye beams just incase it gets to rough so anything you look at will melt.
Go, have fun with your pew-pew. Alot of you are trying to turn this into a game where its pointless to even try being alien. Soon enough if these ideas are catered to there will be 'nobody wanting to be alien' Much less play the game. Dont worry though, for you spoiled gamers will get AI bots to laugh at. A hollow victory imo but one at the very least for you.
Sure, flame me. Sure, erase this post mods, report me to them please. But it wont change what the EZ-mode gamers, the whiners and young-blood are doing to this game. Ruining for the vets. Ruined it for me. But i digress, I'm done caring actually so i don't give a flying heck.
(Btw, if you get pounced with full hp and your team cant save you, you gotta wait... then you gotta wait for them to rescue you if at all in l4d1 and l4d2... so... whats the deal? Its just like devour, if you shoot at the onos enough chasing it with a jp n such. Guess what? It dies, and your saved.)
um... what's this rage about?
Also, people excuse L4D because it's considered 1) less competitive and 2) ZOMG AI ZOMBIES. BTW, I hate forced teamwork.
This little bit of rage is kinda from the whole time till they started NS2 and up till now. The fact the changes they are making have made so many people I know just silently just say meh and leave and drop their hope on the sequel to ns1, or just not care as much. The suggestions to quote unquote 'nerf' the aliens without ever seeing it from the other side of the fence. Yes i made the reference to the left 4 dead series, and no they are not all AI. Play versus once and a little while. People on both sides want to look and feel powerful, people on both sides want to feel usefull but all the suggestions I see here or atleast a majority of them all just go in general for the benefits of the marines saying something like "ME WANT AN I-WIN-LAZOR-BEEMZ-CANNON GIMMEH! and then just forsake the game-play of the alien side, which might just reduce the 'original' fanbase's(?) desire to go alien. Which with less veteran aliens or skilled aliens there will be more marine team stacking and less real competition. Your saying l4d2 dosent have any real competitiveness? A few of the people i know would slap you, hand you a controller and tell you to bring your friends into a l4d1 or 2 VS match.
All im saying is there needs to be balance... a type of harmony with counters, if you remove one thing. Like devour and whine to keep HA and get it back without the latter; Whats left to counter HA? Was this really thought out? From what i read and forgive me on this because i just about silently-raged and left these forums for about half a year but um... "No...?"
Forced team-work is what Aliens and marines in this game was originally intended to forgo, its like socializing. If you go up against a fade yourself in NS1 your screwed 7 out of 10 times unless your a good shot or he/she has no skill or even better, you are ranboing and wander from your team you get your face chewed off. Its not all about being rambo at least thats what i loved about this game and thats what people like you(?) and TC really aren't getting. No its not just 'me' who likes this, nor am i asking this game to cater to the alien side once in a while which will never happen until hell freezes over. Alot of the veteran players who I happened to do competitive matches with back in the day all say the same thing. NS1 is a "team game". Not a OH LOOK AT MAH WEAPON ALIENZ AND FEEER.
Either way, i dont care. I've moved on mostly and im playing LP2 because I like the feel of the 'almost' forced teamwork just like how NS1 has. If you have skill, the game rewards you greatly, and if you have teamwork then its that much easyer. But i digress, I am not bringing LP2 into this because people think it sucks because they have to... omg work together D:
And yes this is opinionated, and alot of you will have your own. And sure it will be alot of you who flame me maybe but does it mean i'm completely wrong?
You're on the right track, but let me clarify my position.
I don't want forced teamwork where everyone is insta gibbed if you're alone. See the zomg incaps for L4D. However, I didn't say I don't want ANY teamwork. Heck, that's the best part of NS. Any good player can tell you 2 Marines are way more powerful than 2 solo Marines. Almost exponentially so. And you instantly realize that if you run off alone you're at a severe disadvantage. However, holding the line alone and pistol whipping that last Skulk is an amazing feeling, just like running into 3 Marines with Leap, forcing them to waste bullets, and nomming them to death because you're JUST THAT GOOD. And even if you run off alone and get picked off, you at least had a chance to fight back and maybe (unlikely) come out ahead.
So yes, I completely agree. Codependency is great and awesome and should be enforced. However, taking forced teamwork to the extreme = RAGE. A solo Marine should still have a decent chance of coming out ahead via skill, just as a solo Skulk versus 2 Marines has a chance.
Obviously. Especially when the person in the team tends to wait for the final shot and brag about his awesome kill count.
I think the present marine armor system has a nice touch of it. A single marine can heal up to 100 HP, be extremely useful and dangerous in a correct positioning, but the lack of armor regen and ability to cover multiple entrances effectively makes him less useful and expensive to supply in the long run. A quick solo marine can cut off a fleeing fade or stall the skulks for 10 seconds, but he alone isn't winning that much unless the rest of the team is in a position to do something.
Say a fade is harassing your base and taking a certain path out, you can get a marine and have him set up the line and at the click of a button as the fade makes his exit route a 5 second barrier will come up that nothing can pass, he can then be cornered by marines and it will make it so much easier to kill it. same thing for an onos, limiting its routes, say you know the onos is running rampant at the north section, get about 3-5 marines to push it into a hallway where they have set up a trap, it becomes a dead end and the onos trapped and unable to recieve help for 5 seconds, either fight or die, no option to run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that you're thinking,
but that means aliens get something that completely immobilized marines and keeps them from doing damage too.
did you think of that smart guy?
it creates a stalemate when it's finally time to invade the last base.
You've obviously just created an uber weapon for destroying the opposing forces making their time/resources completely obsolete
good job
lolol
Even if you did add it to both sides,
the marines are all ranged so it's still marine sided.
Good way to piss players off and quit the game completely until it's fixed/removed