invert mouse
B@DChucky
Join Date: 2010-04-23 Member: 71499Members
Join Date: 2010-04-23 Member: 71499Members
Ive already searched for a topic and searched in the menu for the invert mouse option and couldnt find it (maybe im just blind).
I know its just the engine build but hopefully this will get put in, as there are some of us out there that actually use this option (i cant play fps without it).
And hi to the forums, i used to play the very first version of NS before they changed the game completely :)
I know its just the engine build but hopefully this will get put in, as there are some of us out there that actually use this option (i cant play fps without it).
And hi to the forums, i used to play the very first version of NS before they changed the game completely :)
Comments
im not sure really.
Reason i have always used it is the first proper game i played online was jedi knight after quake - and in the game you could ONLY use inverted mouse.
Most games before that like doom etc i used to play were all just with the keyboard mostly :)
The legacy of having played online games for a rather long time i guess hehe
This makes a game a nobuy/refund(have never had to do this actually: refund) for me. Not including it is just being a lazy developer(EA Games LOL).
Also, you will see more hardcore veteran players(quake/team fortress/doom) use inverted mouse. The same people who like <b><u>Uncapped</u></b>(important word here) <b>Bunny-Hop</b>(all forms of it and all types of movement control).
Yup.
I do use inverted mouse, if you could not decipher my sentences.
Why is this?
most senseless thing for games ever made.
<b>AXIS</b>, way to make yourself sound smart...
Don't quote me on this, but, I think it has something to do with how your left arm works for your right half of the brain and your right arm the left half of the brain; and if you cross your arms you can do things "better".
I believe that is why all Aircraft in IRL(In Real Life) use this setup. It also has to do with weight balance when sitting inside an aircraft, I.E. when pushing forward on the joystick your forward momentum is applied into the shift of your weight(think if the helicopter nosed downward and you had to fight the gravity of your body by pulling on the joystick to tilt the aircraft downward).
That is another small reason that goes unmentioned. As to why computer games(FPSs in this case) it makes sense to a lot of players in the categories I stated, I do not know.
The hurrrdurrr answer most people throw out there is that, oh look how cool and unique we are and 1337 we can be with these controls. (-_-)
Another more logical reason, for myself, is that I do like Helicopter and Airplane(Aircraft) games; or games that do have them.
It wasn't worth editing to appease pedantic priggery. I won't quote you on it because all your reasoning is a load of hooey; inverted mouse is a carry-over from the yoke of an airplane which was developed for reasons <u>entirely separate from FPS gaming</u>. A mouse on the other hand has been analyzed by psychologists and usability experts since its invention to be found that - surprise! - up is up and down is down makes sense for just about everything; as much sense as left is left and right is right.
The only reason for inverted mouse is because some game had it on by default, then someone played said game and got used to it and so on. Indeed, it's sole reason for existence is as a <u>usability virus</u>; and like trackballs and keyboard-look the industry has decided to leave the last few infected and move on. So rather than push a new game to suit literally "backwards" needs, I am going to take the stance that this is something you need to implement yourself, much like I would not expect an option provided if I wanted to play NS2 with left/right reversed.
Oh, What about aviation? Like I said inverting pitch is such a poor approximation of a yoke (how is it that you can overlook left/right movement but not up/down?) that you're better off using a joystick if you truly care that much for emulation; otherwise you can fly just the same with mouse movements you've been using for 99% of all other tasks.
Traditional, backwards crap isn't always bad to add, you know...
On a side note, up/down inversion is really a matter of preference. I use "normal" up/down for most computer games, but use invert for video games and a few computer games. Some setups really depend on the game and the player.
There's just a lot of backwards people here.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After id Software's Doom, the game that popularized FPS games but which did not support vertical aiming with a mouse (the y-axis served for forward/backward movement), competitor 3D Realms' Duke Nukem 3D became one of the first games that supported using the mouse to aim up and down. This and other games using the Build engine had an option to invert the Y-axis. <b>The "invert" feature actually made the mouse behave in a manner that users now regard as non-inverted (by default, moving mouse forward resulted in looking down).</b> Soon after, id Software released Quake, which introduced the invert feature as users now know it. Other games using the Quake engine have come on the market following this standard, likely due to the overall popularity of Quake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing)#Invert_mouse_setting" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(comput...t_mouse_setting</a>
I can't remember right now how it worked with the mouse. But I know I played alot of Duke Nukem 3D growing up. ;)
Do you have a source? I would be very surprised if studies actually showed that "non-inverted" was superior to "inverted" when used respectively by people accustomed to the setting. The human brain is remarkably good at adapting.
HCI principles state that input actions should represent the actions they display, so movements such as up and down should be emulated by similar movements from the input device (I'll leave it to those interested to find more research on this, suffice to say specifically finding research on why up is up makes sense is about as meaningful as finding research as why walking forwards is better than backwards).
However, I never intend to show that one is superior, only more logical. As noted, we are capable in great lengths to adapt to many scenarios, and I believe that if you or I put the effort towards it, we could learn to play equally as well with any axis inverted; however that doesn't mean I want or expect options to be included to invert each axis. Yes, some people adapted to it because of some silly convention followed by some game once upon a time ago, but that time is past and there is no longer a justification to keep such a silly notion of "up is down". New games not including this option are a reflection of the gaming community dropping support for holdovers that no longer make sense (i.e. keyboard-look).
On a related matter, Goon's post got me thinking, and having done game design I can venture a theory. While I was saved by the abstractions of GLUT and OpenGL, managing input in the Doom/Nukem era may not have been so. In typical GUI design, screen coordinates are given with the origin (0,0) at the top-left corner of the screen with mouse movements downwards increasing in Y (and rightwards in X); however (no surprise) game design's world coordinates model more accurately those of our own, namely that Y coordinates decrease as you go down towards the bottom of the viewport/display. It's then possible that game developers translated mouse movements from GUI screen coordinates into the game's world coordinates. This would have resulted in a "movement up" as reported by the OS (Y1 > Y2) being translated into a movement down (Y1 < Y2) as rendered by the game and hence why early developers might have termed the opposite (up=up) as "inverted".
As for why FPS games got into this inverted stuff.... dunno. R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e's theory on the whole screen alignment is as good of a guess as any, and probably the most logical.
It's mostly just a generic some people got used to it one way and like it that way. Nothing more, nothing less at this point.
In a first person shooter, left-right mouse movement directly rotates you around the Z axis. It's therefore more appropriate to think of FPS aim in terms of the transformation of your view with respect to screen space, where move-mouse-up-to-tilt-up is consistent with push-mouse-right-to-pan-right. It would actually make sense to invert both axes of the mouse, so that it feels like you're "pushing" the camera like if you were dragging a window on the desktop, but inverting only the Y axis of the mouse makes absolutely no sense.
In a first person shooter, left-right mouse movement directly rotates you around the Z axis. It's therefore more appropriate to think of FPS aim in terms of the transformation of your view with respect to screen space, where move-mouse-up-to-tilt-up is consistent with push-mouse-right-to-pan-right. It would actually make sense to invert both axes of the mouse, so that it feels like you're "pushing" the camera like if you were dragging a window on the desktop, but inverting only the Y axis of the mouse makes absolutely no sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, exactly that. I love when people say "oh I use inverted because I like flight sim" but then completely overlook the fact moving a mouse left/right is just as bad an approximation of roll ass moving it up/down is of pitch. And as you say, we're all used to some intuitive "inverse" behaviour, like moving a camera around in a 3D scene that is often controlled by its pivot at the back such that the actual view moves in all directions opposite of mouse, but having only one set of direction opposite is completely absurd and illogical. So NurEinMensch please understand this isn't about arbitrary hating of differences, but rather trivial differences that make absolutely no sense and have no business belonging in a game that takes itself seriously.
It's close to something for nothing, that's how small it is in proportion to the reward. Once again, if the devs stand to make even the small amount of sales off of this, why not include it, if only to use that money to fix something more important with the game (like timely patches or hotfixes)?
On a unrelated note, backwards or even ridiculous does not mean stupid or obsolescent. "Make no sense" is somewhat understandable, "have no business being in a game" is quite arbitrary. You must be able to list a few things in FPSes (yes, even NS2) that "make no sense" logically or even mechanically speaking, but survive due to tradition and accessibility.
You have to assess what this is doing for NS2, the game: Is it going to be a hardline stance for many purchasers? No, any gamer who refuses to buy a game without inverse mouse will quickly find him/herself gameless. Is it necessary? No, the same gamers who will claim preference for "inversion" are amazingly proficient at using a mouse in every other context, game, or OS which do not have similar options. If we cater to them, then we must also appease the other minorites who might want trackball support, or keyboard-look support, or TTS enemy alerts for the hearing impaired, or brail support for the blind. Where does it end?
I'll do you one better than an FPS example: One of the foremost leaders in technology and science today still actively use a measurement system long ago abandoned by its own creators; it is silly, illogical and an all-around poor standard, one that very few of the rest of the world follow. Yet why does it still exist? Because we are hard-pressed to displace such an entrenched leader that carries much weight. This, however, is not the case with inverted mouse players, they are few and far between and finding decreasing support in the gaming community. The scheme has been shown to be illogical and is a holdover that will soon die out much like the proponents for keyboard-look. We can either choose to prolong its suffering by infecting NS2, or speeding its course to extinction, which I see as the sensible and progressive thing to do... despite the whole of 3 sales lost.
You have to assess what this is doing for NS2, the game: Is it going to be a hardline stance for many purchasers? No, any gamer who refuses to buy a game without inverse mouse will quickly find him/herself gameless. Is it necessary? No, the same gamers who will claim preference for "inversion" are amazingly proficient at using a mouse in every other context, game, or OS which do not have similar options. If we cater to them, then we must also appease the other minorites who might want trackball support, or keyboard-look support, or TTS enemy alerts for the hearing impaired, or brail support for the blind. Where does it end?
I'll do you one better than an FPS example: One of the foremost leaders in technology and science today still actively use a measurement system long ago abandoned by its own creators; it is silly, illogical and an all-around poor standard, one that very few of the rest of the world follow. Yet why does it still exist? Because we are hard-pressed to displace such an entrenched leader that carries much weight. This, however, is not the case with inverted mouse players, they are few and far between and finding decreasing support in the gaming community. The scheme has been shown to be illogical and is a holdover that will soon die out much like the proponents for keyboard-look. We can either choose to prolong its suffering by infecting NS2, or speeding its course to extinction, which I see as the sensible and progressive thing to do... despite the whole of 3 sales lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would not buy a Aircraft game if it didn't have inverted look/mouse. Same with an FPS, it has been in every "good" non-console ported FPS game since its introduction.
Even Goldeneye had it, and that is arguably the best FPS console game ever to be created.
I think they will lose more sales than just 10 people, they might even get negative press from it. (Or about 50% of the playerbase will be using a VAC cheat, or at least all the Veteran NS1 players.)
It would be the same thing if they dropped the news 3 days before release, that the most invasive version of StarForce DRM comes with the game.
Yeah...
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What leader in technology, way to not even give a specific example... again. Were you explaining the metric system? Supporting different Operating Systems is a little too extreme example, that is a whole code rewrite (I assume non-LUA). LUA, we will have to see how powerful it really is.
Including Inverted Mouse shouldn't take any more time than including Free Look in a FPS nowadays, maybe less than that because you just add - negative values to all the axis parts.
Renegade do you benefit of it not being included, because if you do, well... (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHptG35EWU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHptG35EWU</a>) sounds like U MAD FROM GETTIN OWNED. (If you couldn't take that last line as a joke then you really are extreme "left/right wing" videogame wise. And should be ignored?)
Exceptions are point and click adventure games (like the CSI ones or Myst), puzzle games, racing games, and anything that doesn't have free look or camera control.
Everything else, can utilize it. And that is a lot of games/genres.
Like I said, and here is another example, you would be mad if you had no camera control in your beloved MMO games. I can see all the WoW geeks crying now.
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Renegade, you are going to have to right at least a ten page essay explaining why inverted mouse is detrimental to video gaming, in order to convice everyone on the internet and in real life that it really needs to be phased out.
Good luck.
It would be more understandable for the negative feedback if you're asking for the option in CS:S which flips weapons over to the left hand side of the screen, for left handed mouse users, since you know that actually requires work.
Now, I don't play inverted and the people against this option don't either, but I can fully appreciate the want for this option, you know why?
Those of you who don't play inverted like me, imagine if you played an FPS that forced you to play inverted, that would be super annoying as far as gaming goes. Frustration that's totally uneeded.
We shouldn't force players to play none inverted the same way we shouldn't force people to use a mouse with their right hand. What's next, I can't map the arrow keys to movement instead of wasd if I so desired? Ridiculous.
Even having the option accessible in the console is enough. People are different, they have their own preferences of playstyle with some being more natural to certain people than others. Options do not hurt at all and this is by no means an unreasonable request.
Will it lead to funny hats like TF2... hahahahahah... no. Will it lead to some people's increased enjoyment of a game, yes.
You made me wonder about something tho. Is there keyboards that is inverted on the y axis (left hand keyboards)?
The option to invert should definitely be in, though. The misses is a fan of all things horror but won't by the recent Silent Hill video game because you can't invert the x-axis.
@Fortune et. al: As a programmer I know what "Just a few lines" means, and how it leads to feature creep, but more evil - useless feature creep. I hope you're all just as prepared to stand by such silly conjectures when someone proposes keyboard look, and insist on your proclaimed "ridiculousness" that (woe be to he) the setup page does not contain options to invert every key on his keyboard. After all people are different right? Sherpa affirms my point: even y-inverting is not enough, because now you must consider those who need x-invert as well, what about z-invert? trackball? laser pointer?
And to answer the initial question: I/we benefit from not including such illogical options by refusing to promote and cater to poor game/HCI design.
@Fortune et. al: As a programmer I know what "Just a few lines" means, and how it leads to feature creep, but more evil - useless feature creep. I hope you're all just as prepared to stand by such silly conjectures when someone proposes keyboard look, and insist on your proclaimed "ridiculousness" that (woe be to he) the setup page does not contain options to invert every key on his keyboard. After all people are different right? Sherpa affirms my point: even y-inverting is not enough, because now you must consider those who need x-invert as well, what about z-invert? trackball? laser pointer?
And to answer the initial question: I/we benefit from not including such illogical options by refusing to promote and cater to poor game/HCI design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell me how you invert every key on the keyboard, I haven't heard that one.
Trackball isn't mainstream. Can you even control a game with a laser pointer( the actual laser part... blowing smoke again I see). Also I do not think mouses use the Z-axis, unless its some special tilt mouse; and maybe not even that.
Mouse is most common used, so it makes sense to give it all the mainstream(common) features that are included with this.
Inverted/negative axis values isn't a new concept that we just discovered from Einsteins math last year or something, it has been around since basically... forever?
Sherpa is trawlin', or just doesn't understand extreme(useless) examples. Tell me what "feature creep", that is bad, if Inverting Mouse Axis option was allowed.
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Also, Y-Axis only needs and Invert option, I haven't seen or seen someone want an X-Axis Invert option for an FPS game(that doesn't contain vehicles/aircraft).
So it is not like you gotta reinvent the wheel... or mouse, pardon the saying.
Oh and my post wasn't incoherent. I space out the lines because most people will TL;DR/WoT if the sentences were properly put together into structured paragraphs.
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I'm using your natural selection example against you. Most better/clan/good/veteran NS1(oldschool games) Players use Inverted Mouse. Maybe its you who needs to adapt? Yup. I bet you thought, and still think in its current iteration, that mp_blockscripts is the most amazing thing ever. Just a guess.
Like I said, explain how "enhanced" or complete mouse options will ruin a video game, or, this paticular video game. More options means more types of people/players that use more varied settings which equates to more purchases; with very minimal extra effort on the development side.
Trackball isn't mainstream... Can you even control a game with a laser pointer( the actual laser part... blowing smoke again I see).
Mouse is most common used, so it makes sense to give it all the mainstream(common) features that are included with this.
I'm using your natural selection example against you. Most better/clan/good/veteran NS1(oldschool games) Players use Inverted Mouse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, not coherent, just delusional if you think inverted mouse is <i>that</i> common. You've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar - you want to have your inversion but someone else can't have their trackball support, or laser or keyboard-look (which I know off-hand of more people who use those to game than inverted mice).