sizes, distances, travel times
I'm trying to finalize the rough positioning and layout for my map. The guidelines have very specific measurements for route widths (which can be extrapolated to judge room sizes), but have less specifics about room spacing.
So, about how long should a marine have to jog (from marine start, by the shortest route) to reach the first expansion res node? The nearest expansion tech? The furthest expansion tech? The enemy starting hive? What's a good upper bound on the worst-case route (between the two furthest rooms, clear across the map)?
I recall 20-30 seconds being a guideline for MS->hive and hive->hive in NS1, but I'm not sure what an appropriate spacing is for NS2. They've said maps should generally be smaller, but we've also gone from 4 base rooms to maybe 6 tech points, and they can't all be equidistant from eachother.
Editor-wise, what's a reasonable bounding box for the entire layout? IIRC, the pre-alpha test maps fit into about a 3500-unit square box, but are probably much smaller than a full map; is 6000 a better box? 8000?
So, about how long should a marine have to jog (from marine start, by the shortest route) to reach the first expansion res node? The nearest expansion tech? The furthest expansion tech? The enemy starting hive? What's a good upper bound on the worst-case route (between the two furthest rooms, clear across the map)?
I recall 20-30 seconds being a guideline for MS->hive and hive->hive in NS1, but I'm not sure what an appropriate spacing is for NS2. They've said maps should generally be smaller, but we've also gone from 4 base rooms to maybe 6 tech points, and they can't all be equidistant from eachother.
Editor-wise, what's a reasonable bounding box for the entire layout? IIRC, the pre-alpha test maps fit into about a 3500-unit square box, but are probably much smaller than a full map; is 6000 a better box? 8000?
Comments
So, about how long should a marine have to jog (from marine start, by the shortest route) to reach the first expansion res node? The nearest expansion tech? The furthest expansion tech? The enemy starting hive? What's a good upper bound on the worst-case route (between the two furthest rooms, clear across the map)?
I recall 20-30 seconds being a guideline for MS->hive and hive->hive in NS1, but I'm not sure what an appropriate spacing is for NS2. They've said maps should generally be smaller, but we've also gone from 4 base rooms to maybe 6 tech points, and they can't all be equidistant from eachother.
Editor-wise, what's a reasonable bounding box for the entire layout? IIRC, the pre-alpha test maps fit into about a 3500-unit square box, but are probably much smaller than a full map; is 6000 a better box? 8000?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's no concrete answer for this and it doesn't look like we'll be getting one soon, it's been asked many times in the past. I'm personally following a 20-25 second interval between tech nodes. It seems to be right.
Also, remember, marines can sprint now. This changes things in terms of travel time.
Map 1 - 5 Techpoints:
MS->1st RT = 1400, ~15 sec
MS->1st exp = 1400, ~12 sec
MS->2nd exp = 2000, ~21 sec
MS->AS = 3500, ~26 sec
Map 2 - 6 Techpoints:
MS->1st RT = 1100, ~9 sec
MS->1st exp = 1600, ~16 sec
MS->2nd exp = 2200, ~18 sec
MS->AS = 6000, ~54 sec
Both maps are near symmetrical so the travel times are about the same for the alien side. I'll be sure and add this info next time the guidelines are updated.
Map 1 - 5 Techpoints:
MS->1st RT = 1400, ~15 sec
MS->1st exp = 1400, ~12 sec
MS->2nd exp = 2000, ~21 sec
MS->AS = 3500, ~26 sec
Map 2 - 6 Techpoints:
MS->1st RT = 1100, ~9 sec
MS->1st exp = 1600, ~16 sec
MS->2nd exp = 2200, ~18 sec
MS->AS = 6000, ~54 sec
Both maps are near symmetrical so the travel times are about the same for the alien side. I'll be sure and add this info next time the guidelines are updated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for this information Breadman, it's absolutely vital.
Also, remember, marines can sprint now. This changes things in terms of travel time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, really? I'm like the opposite. It's just a short corridor to the next major room. The PDF said no more giant hallways so I may have taken it a bit extreme.
<!--quoteo(post=1768037:date=Apr 20 2010, 02:50 PM:name=BreadMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BreadMan @ Apr 20 2010, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both maps are near symmetrical so the travel times are about the same for the alien side. I'll be sure and add this info next time the guidelines are updated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, the aliens should have the same distance? I made my alien side slightly longer due to the speed of them. Is this just from the actual point, or to the room with the point in it?
I intepreted it as Room -> Hallway -> Room and not Room -> Hallway -> Hallway Crossroads to Hallways -> Rooms etc.
Yes, it should be about the same for each side. The intention is to balance both sides equally, i.e. sprinting. I measured to the center of each room.
<!--quoteo(post=1768186:date=Apr 21 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 21 2010, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think by giant hallways it meant like labrynths that branch off hallway to another hallway.
I intepreted it as Room -> Hallway -> Room and not Room -> Hallway -> Hallway Crossroads to Hallways -> Rooms etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thaldarin has the right idea. If you have a hallway just make sure it goes somewhere. Long hallways are alright as long as there is good reason for it to be long, just don't make a long hallway for the sake of it being a long hallway.
It probably depends a lot on the final gameplay balance: how much various tech costs, how fast res comes in from each node, whether one team scales up much faster than the other beyond X res nodes, etc. Presumably none of those things have been finalized yet since they're still in the pre-alpha phase, so at this point there probably is no authoritative answer.
The guidelines say ~9 max nodes on a map, so I expect they'll fine-tune the final game balance with that number in mind. Of course you're free to make any kind of map you want, but if you're hoping to have your map considered for "official"-ness, I'd stick to the guideline to be on the safe side.
The layout in the mapping guidelines is kinda helping and confusing at the same time.
I know that most of the layouts are hypothetical until you are really able to playtest them, but it just adds so much uncertainty, when you try to get a proper layout done on your own!?
I enjoy playing the larger maps, and the divirsity it gives... Keep em guesing :)
Good, I was thinking of a layout that would place 2 tech spots relatively close to each origin spawns then another at the central chokepoint and a strategic one in a more remote position with long access routes from MS, AS but shorter from the dreaded "double res" room and main choke point. That would be the top left. *layout is not to scale, it is a quick sketch.
<img src="http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6729/ns2vulturedesign.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I am actually starting from that room and will branch out to the other areas.
Probably fair enough, but assuming that the corridors wouldn't all be straight and long then the probably isn't misleading, nor is it entirely confusing, so what's the harm?
partly right, it was actually done in some GNU illustrator clone called Inkscape.
And no it isnt to scale. It is just a sketch for pathing and room placement.
<img src="http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6729/ns2vulturedesign.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I am actually starting from that room and will branch out to the other areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have too many tech points if you ask me. They only need three to hit the max, and you start on one. You don't even have to fight the other team to hit the cap and you'll have two empty points.
You may be right.
Might axe the ones closest to intitial spawns and tighten all up.
Merge the spawns with the nearby techpoints, axe the lowest tech point, re-distribute the resource nodes (i'm thinking...7 for heavy fighting?) and you'll have a map where both sides are pretty entrenched, but they can choose to go for the 3rd techpoint, or assault the opposiing sides tech point directly via the left flank. The resources won't be high enough to stay at the 2nd tech point, so there should be constant skirmishes all over the place.
would go great on some sort of desolate planet with little life or something. Harsh fighting on what little there is to find etc.
No siege maps in NS2 please.
Siege maps are the best kind :)
However I am not sure if it would work or not in ns2.