<!--quoteo(post=1767078:date=Apr 15 2010, 10:50 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 15 2010, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really understand how people can engage in a social medium and not form lasting relationships with those they game with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like the notion of these pretentious relationships that you believe should be forming between TSA and the Kharaa. It is strictly forbidden.
<!--quoteo(post=1767103:date=Apr 15 2010, 01:03 PM:name=Optikal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Optikal @ Apr 15 2010, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like the notion of these pretentious relationships that you believe should be forming between TSA and the Kharaa. It is strictly forbidden.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey it's not beast iality if it's from another planet...
<!--quoteo(post=1767100:date=Apr 15 2010, 01:45 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 15 2010, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if it didn't preserve gameplay, what would be the purpose?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if we look at NS1... their's maybe 1 server out there with a pure-mode running. But there are tons and tons of boring classing servers (sorry i prefer siege with giant teams :P). Now in all of these servers (except that 1 bot server that i found that also runs siege maps and pure mode), i can use full-on modifications to all guns characters and props.
----------------------
Point is people think they need "pure" mode in order to experience "classic" gameplay. And we don't need that now in order to get this result. It's simple... the server title includes the words "Classic" and they either just run played-to-death co maps or played-to-death ns maps. I think that is "pure" by most peoples definitions.
Anything more really is saying "pure" = no server scripts at all! (which is bad according to some people that think we need "exceptions" made for certain scripts)
No. "pure" means I don't want to play with your enlarged pink-coloured skulk models and red-dot crosshairs so you can see me around a corner and come spraying without muzzleflash as you plan your next target through several walls painted with invisible textures.
im gonna go out on a limb here.. but i assume you won't be able to modify "vanilla" NS2 at all. A "MOD" isn't "ADDONS" like popular games such as... *disgust* WoW boasts. When they speak of MOD they mean modify the current game to create your own game, and yes you can switch some weapon, add some new models and have yourself a mod, but you won't be able to play that mod on a NS2 game server; you should think of them as 2 separate games.
I just hope that enough people will run a server with untouched version of the game, I don't wanna have a different game expierence, each time I change the server!
<!--quoteo(post=1767214:date=Apr 15 2010, 08:02 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Apr 15 2010, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. "pure" means I don't want to play with your enlarged pink-coloured skulk models and red-dot crosshairs so you can see me around a corner and come spraying without muzzleflash as you plan your next target through several walls painted with invisible textures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that's consistency, not unmodded game play.
<!--quoteo(post=1767078:date=Apr 15 2010, 06:50 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 15 2010, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree. You suggest it's dangerous only because servers could cheat the system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um... Yeah?..
Other company tried that, failed terribly; repeating other's mistakes would be a dumbfounding trail to set out on. To be clear, the danger isn't separating "vanilla" from "custom", but giving either side preference in any way: if people feel wronged, they WILL cheat the system, rendering it null, and overall experience frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1767078:date=Apr 15 2010, 06:50 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 15 2010, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really understand how people can engage in a social medium and not form lasting relationships with those they game with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same way you can ride a subway without chatting with passer-bys.
<!--quoteo(post=1766934:date=Apr 14 2010, 06:34 PM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Apr 14 2010, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also hoping they don't force clients to download audio files from the server, one of the most annoying things about games like CS is joining a server just to find it has 50 audio files it wants you to download.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You can use console commands to prevent the client from downloading anything, even if it's available to be downloaded by default. I can't remember the command now. TF2 even has it hardcoded into the menu system.
Other company tried that, failed terribly; repeating other's mistakes would be a dumbfounding trail to set out on. To be clear, the danger isn't separating "vanilla" from "custom", but giving either side preference in any way: if people feel wronged, they WILL cheat the system, rendering it null, and overall experience frustrating.
The same way you can ride a subway without chatting with passer-bys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feeling wronged isn't relevant, nor is your metaphor.
R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e best described where the lines between pure and other should be set. LUA that changes elements involving models, textures, weapons, etc should not be able allowed on servers with a pure flag. Elements that monitor stats, add Administrative features, etc should be permissible. Having a pure flag won't make the community cheat the system, it will just show players where to go for the core experience defined by UWE.
I certainly don't want to go to a 'pure' server with a crap mod like prophunt playing.
<!--quoteo(post=1767600:date=Apr 17 2010, 11:15 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 17 2010, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feeling wronged isn't relevant, nor is your metaphor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously it is relevant if it affects the game. I'm sorry I can't explain properly why people require public anonymity, but there's no need for lashing out just for trying to help. Arguing from personal ignorance is definitely a bad idea, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1767600:date=Apr 17 2010, 11:15 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 17 2010, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having a pure flag won't make the community cheat the system, it will just show players where to go for the core experience defined by UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You've missed the original post, I'm not talking about server tags themselves or any requirements for such.
<!--quoteo(post=1766917:date=Apr 14 2010, 09:12 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 14 2010, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes don't worry - the default will be to play on "vanilla" NS2 servers. <b>If you like you can switch to "custom" and play on modded servers, but we haven't worked this long and hard only to see no one play OUR game!</b> :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1766955:date=Apr 14 2010, 10:48 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Apr 14 2010, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's dangerous waters, <b>assuming that means you'll directly separate "vanilla" from "custom".</b>
<b>Team Fortress 2 had this for a while, and it was outright disastrous</b>: people would simply fake their server info to get on the more common "vanilla" tab. Hell, today, with the tag system, some still do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1767600:date=Apr 17 2010, 04:15 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 17 2010, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feeling wronged isn't relevant, nor is your metaphor.
R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e best described where the lines between pure and other should be set. LUA that changes elements involving models, textures, weapons, etc should not be able allowed on servers with a pure flag. Elements that monitor stats, add Administrative features, etc should be permissible. Having a pure flag won't make the community cheat the system, it will just show players where to go for the core experience defined by UWE.
I certainly don't want to go to a 'pure' server with a crap mod like prophunt playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if such server-limitations tag the majority of servers, then no one will produce 3rd party replacement weapons or produce minimods.
Want to use a custom crosshair?? You won't be permitted. Instant kick-ban (slightly over exaggerating :P)
Personally i believe that because of the amount of people we see now modding the engine test and making maps, and the fact that NS2 will <u><b>LACK!!!</b></u> CO MODE (THE MOST POPULAR NS2 MODE, not my favorite, BUT THE COMMUNITIES FAVORITE!!!1) <u><b>that their will be a minority OF PURE!!, SERVERS!!!!!</b></u> (<b><u>and they will mostly all be CO servers :(</u></b> lol)
but because these servers will REQUIRE the pure mode tag to be off, Then we are free to use any client side model replacement, orange armor, texture we want!! Pure mode just got pwnd before it even existed!! xD
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On mods:
Yes some people have this unusual impression that a "mod" is a total conversion, for example you install a halflife 2 mod and everything is new and created just for that mod. These people have obviously not played garrysmod (another halflife 2 mod). The lua code being produced and run on garrysmod servers and clients is akin to recreating Windows 7 in lua. I think it's safe to say you wander into a random garrysmod server that your client will auto-download more lua script and models then all that will make up NS2 (in summation garrysmod is bloated... try SpaceBuild btw... it's fun but the servers keep on crashing).
The point however is what does it mean to have a server running a minimod? This is not a total-conversion mod... it's a NS2 server with an unusually long server name, and you know it will have vehicles and prop hunt and stuff like that. Trouble-in-terrorist-town would make an excellent garrys-mod-minimod to NS2-mod port! :) We can have it where the traitors are fades in disguise (perhaps even having that mini-mod running in parallel with the standard gameplay) lol.
"Pure" mode could be implemented like it is in Source right now, either "fully" pure with no exceptions, or "whitelist" one, where certain things - like crosshairs or menus - are hip and dandy. Well, hopefully it will be. "Pure" mode, however, is fully compatible with any server-side mods, since what it does is make sure clients don't have content differing from the server's.
Good point about combat and such, knowing what mods server has running seems to be a necessity in highly moddable games like GMod and likely NS2. Hopefully it won't be overlooked.
<!--quoteo(post=1767609:date=Apr 17 2010, 04:22 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Apr 17 2010, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if such server-limitations tag the majority of servers, then no one will produce 3rd party replacement weapons or produce minimods. Want to use a custom crosshair?? You won't be permitted. Instant kick-ban (slightly over exaggerating :P)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->More like go find a server that supports it. There's nothing new here - Quake 3's sv_pure, Starcraft's Use map settings - the concept of "pure" servers is a tried-and-tested one and only serves to unite the playerbase so I don't see what you're getting all flabbergasted about.
<!--quoteo(post=1767607:date=Apr 17 2010, 05:07 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Apr 17 2010, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously it is relevant if it affects the game. I'm sorry I can't explain properly why people require public anonymity, but there's no need for lashing out just for trying to help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, the community won't 'feel wronged' if there are ways to filter pure from custom servers. Secondly, an explanation is not required: clearly you prefer hollow interactions. Not really relevant either way.
Back to the discussion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More like go find a server that supports it. There's nothing new here - Quake 3's sv_pure, Starcraft's Use map settings - the concept of "pure" servers is a tried-and-tested one and only serves to unite the playerbase so I don't see what you're getting all flabbergasted about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. The whole use map settings and custom games in most RTS' works fine. Sometimes I'm looking for that custom experience and sometimes I want tournament standard rules, ie, pure.
<!--quoteo(post=1767609:date=Apr 17 2010, 05:22 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Apr 17 2010, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if such server-limitations tag the majority of servers, then no one will produce 3rd party replacement weapons or produce minimods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That can't be further from the truth. If anything being able to filter between pure, whitelist, and custom server settings will encourage lua mods, and help direct players to the type of gameplay they desire. And then (ideally) you add a few of those servers they like to a favourites list and visit them often.
Personally, if I want to play a game of Natural Selection 2, I'm going to find a server that has Natural Selection 2 running on it, unmodded, playable, happiness. If I wanted to play <b>Uber Frag NS Combat Yar!</b> I'm going to specifically go out of my way to find a server that is running that particular game. I don't think the devs have officially stated how mods are going to play a part in NS2, other than the Vanilla/Custom filter, but I think they should definitely go towards a route that specifically lists ALL mods currently enabled on a given server.
A whitelist can exist with certain mods that will not automatically change your server from Vanilla to Custom, such as administrative tools (or a system can be set up that clearly defines what a modification can touch without switching the server to Custom, which would be handled directly through the Lua interface). Its worked for Epic Games, and I don't see why a whitelist wouldn't work in this situation.
Even a "Standard Server" option when starting a server that would prevent all modification to certain parts of the game would work. Then, even if a server had 5 mods that modified gameplay in a big way, they wouldn't actually be doing anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1767672:date=Apr 18 2010, 09:54 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 18 2010, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly, the community won't 'feel wronged' if there are ways to filter pure from custom servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, this isn't what I'm talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1767672:date=Apr 18 2010, 09:54 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 18 2010, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, an explanation is not required: clearly you prefer hollow interactions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same way defending black people makes me grow black skin?..
Well, this is a whole new low of bigotry, inattention and hypocrisy. Nothing more to talk about, I guess.
<!--quoteo(post=1767674:date=Apr 18 2010, 10:29 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Apr 18 2010, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the devs have officially stated how mods are going to play a part in NS2, other than the Vanilla/Custom filter, but I think they should definitely go towards a route that specifically lists ALL mods currently enabled on a given server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I left a note in Suggestions forum somewhere regarding how this could work: make each installed mod be tied to an info file detailing its name, version and so on, so the server tags itself without any effort on admin's part. No missed mod listings, easy categorising.
<!--quoteo(post=1767672:date=Apr 18 2010, 02:54 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 18 2010, 02:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly, the community won't 'feel wronged' if there are ways to filter pure from custom servers. Secondly, an explanation is not required: clearly you prefer hollow interactions. Not really relevant either way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not about how nice the serverbrowser can be so that it can filter/find a "pure" or "unpure" server.
This is about whether or not it's a good idea to have a "pure" mode period.
And "the community won't 'feel wronged'" I disagree. Maybe the <u>new</u> community (which hasn't played NS1) won't feel wronged, but their's a chance some NS1 veterans will be. Join any NS1 server today and their's a good chance you'll be permitted to play with every weapon replaced by a custom one, a bunch of custom marine-structure-props, and every marine looking like a clone trooper (i had this installed at one point... jetpackers were those elite clones with green stripes i think :P).
This is what HALFLIFE 1 is like. What NS1 is like.
A "pure" mode would block what is normal in NS1 and i think that is a bad idea.
If there was a compromise where "pure" mode was more about what scripts/mods/custom-game-modes that the SERVER has installed, then i wouldn't see this as a problem (which is the definition of a "Classic" NS1 server today). Most servers will be running custom scripts anyway thereby voiding the "pure" tag. But i don't believe it should go as far as scanning your installation of custom models on your computer to see if anything differs with the server!
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited April 2010
There are two distinct issues being discussed here and this seems to be causing confusion.
First, and this is the topic of the original post, there is the issue of server-side modifications. These could include gameplay modifications such as lerklift and extralevels (examples from NS1) as well as simple tools to aid server administrators. The question here is how to convey the content of such modifications to the players through the server browser.
Second, <i>and this is unrelated to the first issue</i>, there is the issue of client-side aesthetic customization. In NS1 there was an mp_consistency server option so that the server could decide whether to allow players to use custom models and the like. I would expect such an option to appear in NS2 as well.
The "pure" and such words are probably what's causing the confusion... As far as I know, "pure" refers to making sure the client doesn't have any files differing from the server: it enforces consistency, but does not block server-side mods.
<!--quoteo(post=1767758:date=Apr 18 2010, 10:14 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Apr 18 2010, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two distinct issues being discussed here and this seems to be causing confusion.
First, and this is the topic of the original post, there is the issue of server-side modifications. These could include gameplay modifications such as lerklift and extralevels (examples from NS1) as well as simple tools to aid server administrators. The question here is how to convey the content of such modifications to the players through the server browser.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is exactly what I want to know about, from a server browser screen. Many will want to be able to click a filter and find those servers working with/without any server side modifications. Certainly the naming conventions will do a lot to inform the user, but I'm glad that pure gameplay will be preserved, on both client and server. Pure means unmodified, and that includes server and client side gameplay.
The "pure" and such words are probably what's causing the confusion... As far as I know, <u>"pure" refers to making sure the client doesn't have any files differing from the server: it enforces consistency, <b>but does not block server-side mods.</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. This is basically consistency-control that is compatible with mini-mods.
<!--quoteo(post=1767832:date=Apr 19 2010, 11:33 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 19 2010, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And this is exactly what I want to know about, from a server browser screen. Many will want to be able to click a
filter and find those servers working with/without any server side modifications. Certainly the naming conventions will do a lot to inform the user, but I'm glad that pure gameplay will be preserved, on both client and server. <u>Pure means unmodified, and that includes server and client side gameplay.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With reference to the underlined sentence. WTF! :P
I suggest we include the new flash word "Classic" to describe 100% unmodified/disabling of any SERVER-side modifications, AND enforcement that the SERVER not possess, or attempt to load, any mods or modifications that differ from the original game! The CLIENTs files are ignored for this proposed tag.
Draco_2k's definition of "Pure" seems more useful... i.e. the client downloads the files from the server, and then you can play on the server... including any mini-mod they have configured. But beyond the servers contents you cannot mod your lua files, and i believe any client file including the blocking of any custom content that the server does not also possess.
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So this is how this could work:
1. you got a server... no tags... That means your server is running custom minimods and content, and their is NO enforcement on the clients files.
2. you got a "Classic" server. This means (like it does for NS1) that the server will be running stock NS2 maps, and no custom scripts of minimods that require being installed on either the server, or both the server and client. In this arrangement the client is permitted to have custom content installed (like in NS1).
3. You got a "Pure" server. This means that (based on Draco_2k's definition of "Pure") that the server is permitted to have custom mods installed, BUT at the client-side level you are also forced to run the servers version of the client-side experience. This means if the server has some custom onos model, then at the client level every player is required to have this also. If the server is running a mario-kart lua mini-mod, then you better believe you'll be driving a go-kart. But you cannot introduce any modifications that the server does not equally posess.
4. You can have a "Pure+Classic i.e. Vanilla" server. This is like Drown's idea of what "Pure" means. I.e. "Pure" implies file consistency on the CLIENT, and "Classic" implies NS2-file-consistency on the SERVER... put the two together and you have 100% stock boring gameplay for the masses. :P
-----------------
Perhaps a drawing to diagram the scope of each "special" word :P
(bounds show the limitations of "special" words)
[======VANILLA======] //"Pure" to some. This is that "fresh-install" experience! Full Stock (or as updated by the devs) NS2 experience forced on the server and client. [===CLASSIC===] //Forces a "Vanilla" server. This does not limit the client in any way. Stock NS2 __________[===PURE===] //blocks the client from having content differant from the server. If the server has custom content, then this is forced onto the client. __________Server __________________Client
A server without any of these tags is considered "open". The server can run any minimod or custom content or custom map. The client may have the full capability to mod their Lua client-side scripts that the devs permit (which may very well be limited to modding the user-interface, or maybe how the gun's ammo-readout displays etc).
<b><u>Unfortunately this is not explicit enough!</u></b>
There must be <b>2</b> versions of <b>PURE</b>!!!
PURE-MODELS = enforced models to match the server. The server may have custom models forced on the client, unless the PURE server is also CLASSIC, in which case the server will have only stock models to enforce.
PURE-LUA = what 99% of all servers will be running. Your Lua scripts will only run if the server permits this... By only allowing files that match the servers Lua files.
=============================
Naturally you can have any variation of these tags for your server, and no tags if you wish.
<!--quoteo(post=1767832:date=Apr 19 2010, 09:33 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 19 2010, 09:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And this is exactly what I want to know about, from a server browser screen. Many will want to be able to click a filter and find those servers working with/without any server side modifications. Certainly the naming conventions will do a lot to inform the user, but I'm glad that pure gameplay will be preserved, on both client and server. Pure means unmodified, and that includes server and client side gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And most agree that this should occur.
Any quick add-ons like admin powers or votemaps should easily be able to be integrated and sent into the next build as an option to turn on. That was we can have slight modifications/add-ons for our servers, but still maintain the "sv_pure" paradigm for unaltered gameplay as set by the NS2 devs. The other flagged servers with ZOMG DM mods will be filterable.
mp_consistency will probably be maintained for any sv_pure server. i.e. the client will also have to abide within the set rules of what is allowed to be added/removed by checking its files against the server's (zomg pink skulk textures, not allowed).
<!--quoteo(post=1767865:date=Apr 19 2010, 03:40 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Apr 19 2010, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any quick add-ons like admin powers or votemaps should easily be able to be integrated and sent into the next build as an option to turn on. That was we can have <u>slight</u> modifications/add-ons for our servers, but still maintain the "sv_pure" paradigm for unaltered gameplay as set by the NS2 devs. The other flagged servers with ZOMG DM mods will be filterable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok explain why it's still "Pure" if the devs set the standard of what is "Pure" but the server can disable or enable these "slight modifications/add-ons" so that people looking for truely unmodified gameplay will encounter these server-side custom configurations at random states of availability across all "Pure" servers.
If the devs want to add some feature to NS2, and this is implied to be "Pure"... then i don't think a server can have a choice about it (regardless of how insignificant the addon/modification is). I think in this use of the word "Pure" that it's soley up to the devs what people experience, and i am exactly talking about carbon-copy unmodded NS2 servers (no slight server-side modifications permitted, and there wouldn't be such a thing as an option over what the server can have running regardless of the modifications complexity).
Will these "Pure" servers be permitted to have custom max-players counts? Only if the devs permit.
Will these "Pure" servers be permitted to run fancy scripts that keep n-number of player slots free for donating server regulars? Definatelly not, unless the devs decide this should be a feature that exists in all NS2 pure servers. I.e. the choice is the devs, and not the server owner.
Nothing frustrates me more than getting into a L4D(2) server just to find it has some stupid mod turned on with low gravity or some strange pounce mod. I know UWE won't opt for that kind of client connection, but it does make a lot of difference, particularly when the focus of NS2 is a multiplayer experience. What would be best would be a configurable set of options that you can adjust... so you can sort and filter by options like sv_pure or mp_consistency as described above by spellman23. I'd also like a way to determine if a server uses bots, runs custom maps or official maps only, etc.
I think that with the ease folks seem to be playing with LUA already, UWE will probably adopt snippets that they like... sort of like how World of Warcraft often makes the main mods into game features.
<!--quoteo(post=1767875:date=Apr 19 2010, 03:06 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Apr 19 2010, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok explain why it's still "Pure" if the devs set the standard of what is "Pure" but the server can disable or enable these "slight modifications/add-ons" so that people looking for truely unmodified gameplay will encounter these server-side custom configurations at random states of availability across all "Pure" servers.
If the devs want to add some feature to NS2, and this is implied to be "Pure"... then i don't think a server can have a choice about it (regardless of how insignificant the addon/modification is). I think in this use of the word "Pure" that it's soley up to the devs what people experience, and i am exactly talking about carbon-copy unmodded NS2 servers (no slight server-side modifications permitted, and there wouldn't be such a thing as an option over what the server can have running regardless of the modifications complexity).
Will these "Pure" servers be permitted to have custom max-players counts? Only if the devs permit.
Will these "Pure" servers be permitted to run fancy scripts that keep n-number of player slots free for donating server regulars? Definatelly not, unless the devs decide this should be a feature that exists in all NS2 pure servers. I.e. the choice is the devs, and not the server owner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you're trying to argue that 'pure' must be defined too narrowly to be sensible in order to argue that 'pure' couldn't be a sensible option to have?
Personally I'd rather not be on the same server with your zomg pink skulks and custom invisible wall textures and would quite like a working 'pure' filter - i.e. one that might allow certain things such as admin powers and map voting but nothing that would actually change the game materially.
<!--quoteo(post=1767880:date=Apr 19 2010, 04:31 PM:name=SwampRat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SwampRat @ Apr 19 2010, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, you're trying to argue that 'pure' must be defined too narrowly to be sensible in order to argue that 'pure' couldn't be a sensible option to have?
Personally I'd rather not be on the same server with your zomg pink skulks and custom invisible wall textures and would quite like a working 'pure' filter - i.e. one that might allow certain things such as admin powers and map voting but nothing that would actually change the game materially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think in post #55 i described an approach that will work, and satisfy all server admins desires for various degrees of custom or vanilla-ness. I think i fully fleshed out every variation of a custom or stock server someone may want to run, simply by choosing their variation of the tags i suggest (based on other peoples responses here of course). Let me know if it's lacking.
Anyway my problem with the "Pure" word, is how everyone has their own definition. Someone tries to say "ok Pure is the default game... <i><b>but</b></i> i want the freedoms to run the this collection of custom Lua scripts...because <b>I</b> don't think these alter <b>MY</b> definition of Pure. Btw my server will show up as PURE!!1". And so how can this choice exist without undermining the idea of a "Pure" game.
At the same time we have people that think it's "Ok" for some group of people, for example, to make a "Combat Only" mini-mod for NS2, and have this mod verified by the devs as "OK-To-Run-On-Pure-Servers"... Why? PURE = strictly NS mode!!? (Because as we all know NS2 will not come packaged with CO mode). Is this what you mean as "defined too narrowly to be sensible"? Because i think it's defined just right. Pure = what the devs create.
Pure should not equal "These custom modifications of the game are checked and verified to not be hacks by a committee or some mystery group that would need to be created". Would this be "Pure" mode defined sensibly?
I believe we have here people that want to join a "Pure" vanilla NS2 server anytime they desire. Just set the server browser filter and off they go to join such a server. But in order to give them that experience, then we must be explicit. We must draw the line and say no to custom everything (including every file, Lua scripts included). Right on down the line the server and client need to be like you just freshly installed (and updated) the game (or perhaps the client has custom content which gets auto disabled when joining a "Vanilla" server which is a lot better then needing to reinstall/delete-all-custom-content before joining such a server). Naturally the devs can change and refine the base game... but i'm saying that this base game = Pure mode, and i think this is what the devs want to:
<!--quoteo(post=1766917:date=Apr 14 2010, 02:12 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 14 2010, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes don't worry - the default will be to play on "vanilla" NS2 servers. If you like you can switch to "custom" and play on modded servers, but we haven't worked this long and hard only to see no one play OUR game! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1767863:date=Apr 19 2010, 03:31 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Apr 19 2010, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps a drawing to diagram the scope of each "special" word :P
(bounds show the limitations of "special" words)
[======VANILLA======] //"Pure" to some. This is that "fresh-install" experience! Full Stock (or as updated by the devs) NS2 experience forced on the server and client. [===CLASSIC===] //Forces a "Vanilla" server. This does not limit the client in any way. Stock NS2 __________[===PURE===] //blocks the client from having content differant from the server. If the server has custom content, then this is forced onto the client. __________Server __________________Client
A server without any of these tags is considered "open". The server can run any minimod or custom content or custom map. The client may have the full capability to mod their Lua client-side scripts that the devs permit (which may very well be limited to modding the user-interface, or maybe how the gun's ammo-readout displays etc).
<b><u>Unfortunately this is not explicit enough!</u></b>
There must be <b>2</b> versions of <b>PURE</b>!!!
PURE-MODELS = enforced models to match the server. The server may have custom models forced on the client, unless the PURE server is also CLASSIC, in which case the server will have only stock models to enforce.
PURE-LUA = what 99% of all servers will be running. Your Lua scripts will only run if the server permits this... By only allowing files that match the servers Lua files.
=============================
Naturally you can have any variation of these tags for your server, and no tags if you wish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think perhaps, you are right, we may need to develop a quick and dirty dictionary for the purpose of this discussion.
So, FocusedWolf, basically your taxonomy of servers would include...
So just to clarify these definitions to make sure we are all on the same page...
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Vanilla. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>The "boxed" version of the game with no modifications or alterations of any kind on the server or client side. Zero tolerance for changes to either client or server. This server type alone maintains official maps in rotation only. <i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> Classic.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i> The "boxed" version of the game with no modifications or alterations of any kind on the server side. Some small tolerance for client side aesthetic alterations. Custom maps mixed with official.
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Pure(models).<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i> Gamplay is modified from the original in small but noticeable ways due to changes to existing lua snippets, but models and graphics are preserved from the original game. Low tolerance for client side alterations.
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Pure(lua).<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> </i> Gamplay is preserved entirely with no modifications but there are some, or many, alterations to models and graphics. High tolerance for client side alterations.
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Custom.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i> No requirements for client or server side preservation of models, lua and gameplay, although servers will likely want to preserve their specific gameplay so there will likely be a vast variation here in tolerances for client side alterations.
Given this taxonomy, I'm not entirely sure it is necessary to differentiate between classic and vanilla, however it is good to have a differentiation here. My only issue is that in order for this to be an effective determination is if the individual servers can ONLY put up flags if they fit the guidelines. I do wish to clarify that in no way is this a gradient of 'good' vs 'bad' or 'pure' vs 'tainted'. In fact I strongly suspect (and will enjoy) how a few months into release custom servers will probably account for half of the total list.
Comments
Would a pure server prevent client side modification for custom 3rd party guns/characters/props?
If so, then that's not what i'm going to play. :)
Would a pure server prevent client side modification for custom 3rd party guns/characters/props?
If so, then that's not what i'm going to play. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if it didn't preserve gameplay, what would be the purpose?
I don't like the notion of these pretentious relationships that you believe should be forming between TSA and the Kharaa. It is strictly forbidden.
hey it's not beast iality if it's from another planet...
Well if we look at NS1... their's maybe 1 server out there with a pure-mode running. But there are tons and tons of boring classing servers (sorry i prefer siege with giant teams :P). Now in all of these servers (except that 1 bot server that i found that also runs siege maps and pure mode), i can use full-on modifications to all guns characters and props.
----------------------
Point is people think they need "pure" mode in order to experience "classic" gameplay. And we don't need that now in order to get this result. It's simple... the server title includes the words "Classic" and they either just run played-to-death co maps or played-to-death ns maps. I think that is "pure" by most peoples definitions.
Anything more really is saying "pure" = no server scripts at all! (which is bad according to some people that think we need "exceptions" made for certain scripts)
that's consistency, not unmodded game play.
Um... Yeah?..
Other company tried that, failed terribly; repeating other's mistakes would be a dumbfounding trail to set out on. To be clear, the danger isn't separating "vanilla" from "custom", but giving either side preference in any way: if people feel wronged, they WILL cheat the system, rendering it null, and overall experience frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1767078:date=Apr 15 2010, 06:50 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 15 2010, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really understand how people can engage in a social medium and not form lasting relationships with those they game with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same way you can ride a subway without chatting with passer-bys.
NM devicenull already gave the cvar.
Other company tried that, failed terribly; repeating other's mistakes would be a dumbfounding trail to set out on. To be clear, the danger isn't separating "vanilla" from "custom", but giving either side preference in any way: if people feel wronged, they WILL cheat the system, rendering it null, and overall experience frustrating.
The same way you can ride a subway without chatting with passer-bys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feeling wronged isn't relevant, nor is your metaphor.
R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e best described where the lines between pure and other should be set. LUA that changes elements involving models, textures, weapons, etc should not be able allowed on servers with a pure flag. Elements that monitor stats, add Administrative features, etc should be permissible. Having a pure flag won't make the community cheat the system, it will just show players where to go for the core experience defined by UWE.
I certainly don't want to go to a 'pure' server with a crap mod like prophunt playing.
Obviously it is relevant if it affects the game. I'm sorry I can't explain properly why people require public anonymity, but there's no need for lashing out just for trying to help. Arguing from personal ignorance is definitely a bad idea, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1767600:date=Apr 17 2010, 11:15 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 17 2010, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having a pure flag won't make the community cheat the system, it will just show players where to go for the core experience defined by UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've missed the original post, I'm not talking about server tags themselves or any requirements for such.
<!--quoteo(post=1766917:date=Apr 14 2010, 09:12 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 14 2010, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes don't worry - the default will be to play on "vanilla" NS2 servers. <b>If you like you can switch to "custom" and play on modded servers, but we haven't worked this long and hard only to see no one play OUR game!</b> :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1766955:date=Apr 14 2010, 10:48 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Apr 14 2010, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's dangerous waters, <b>assuming that means you'll directly separate "vanilla" from "custom".</b>
<b>Team Fortress 2 had this for a while, and it was outright disastrous</b>: people would simply fake their server info to get on the more common "vanilla" tab. Hell, today, with the tag system, some still do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e best described where the lines between pure and other should be set. LUA that changes elements involving models, textures, weapons, etc should not be able allowed on servers with a pure flag. Elements that monitor stats, add Administrative features, etc should be permissible. Having a pure flag won't make the community cheat the system, it will just show players where to go for the core experience defined by UWE.
I certainly don't want to go to a 'pure' server with a crap mod like prophunt playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if such server-limitations tag the majority of servers, then no one will produce 3rd party replacement weapons or produce minimods.
Want to use a custom crosshair?? You won't be permitted. Instant kick-ban (slightly over exaggerating :P)
Personally i believe that because of the amount of people we see now modding the engine test and making maps, and the fact that NS2 will <u><b>LACK!!!</b></u> CO MODE (THE MOST POPULAR NS2 MODE, not my favorite, BUT THE COMMUNITIES FAVORITE!!!1) <u><b>that their will be a minority OF PURE!!, SERVERS!!!!!</b></u> (<b><u>and they will mostly all be CO servers :(</u></b> lol)
but because these servers will REQUIRE the pure mode tag to be off, Then we are free to use any client side model replacement, orange armor, texture we want!! Pure mode just got pwnd before it even existed!! xD
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On mods:
Yes some people have this unusual impression that a "mod" is a total conversion, for example you install a halflife 2 mod and everything is new and created just for that mod. These people have obviously not played garrysmod (another halflife 2 mod). The lua code being produced and run on garrysmod servers and clients is akin to recreating Windows 7 in lua. I think it's safe to say you wander into a random garrysmod server that your client will auto-download more lua script and models then all that will make up NS2 (in summation garrysmod is bloated... try SpaceBuild btw... it's fun but the servers keep on crashing).
The point however is what does it mean to have a server running a minimod? This is not a total-conversion mod... it's a NS2 server with an unusually long server name, and you know it will have vehicles and prop hunt and stuff like that. Trouble-in-terrorist-town would make an excellent garrys-mod-minimod to NS2-mod port! :) We can have it where the traitors are fades in disguise (perhaps even having that mini-mod running in parallel with the standard gameplay) lol.
Good point about combat and such, knowing what mods server has running seems to be a necessity in highly moddable games like GMod and likely NS2. Hopefully it won't be overlooked.
Want to use a custom crosshair?? You won't be permitted. Instant kick-ban (slightly over exaggerating :P)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->More like go find a server that supports it. There's nothing new here - Quake 3's sv_pure, Starcraft's Use map settings - the concept of "pure" servers is a tried-and-tested one and only serves to unite the playerbase so I don't see what you're getting all flabbergasted about.
Firstly, the community won't 'feel wronged' if there are ways to filter pure from custom servers. Secondly, an explanation is not required: clearly you prefer hollow interactions. Not really relevant either way.
Back to the discussion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More like go find a server that supports it. There's nothing new here - Quake 3's sv_pure, Starcraft's Use map settings - the concept of "pure" servers is a tried-and-tested one and only serves to unite the playerbase so I don't see what you're getting all flabbergasted about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. The whole use map settings and custom games in most RTS' works fine. Sometimes I'm looking for that custom experience and sometimes I want tournament standard rules, ie, pure.
<!--quoteo(post=1767609:date=Apr 17 2010, 05:22 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Apr 17 2010, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if such server-limitations tag the majority of servers, then no one will produce 3rd party replacement weapons or produce minimods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That can't be further from the truth. If anything being able to filter between pure, whitelist, and custom server settings will encourage lua mods, and help direct players to the type of gameplay they desire. And then (ideally) you add a few of those servers they like to a favourites list and visit them often.
If I wanted to play <b>Uber Frag NS Combat Yar!</b> I'm going to specifically go out of my way to find a server that is running that particular game. I don't think the devs have officially stated how mods are going to play a part in NS2, other than the Vanilla/Custom filter, but I think they should definitely go towards a route that specifically lists ALL mods currently enabled on a given server.
A whitelist can exist with certain mods that will not automatically change your server from Vanilla to Custom, such as administrative tools (or a system can be set up that clearly defines what a modification can touch without switching the server to Custom, which would be handled directly through the Lua interface). Its worked for Epic Games, and I don't see why a whitelist wouldn't work in this situation.
Even a "Standard Server" option when starting a server that would prevent all modification to certain parts of the game would work. Then, even if a server had 5 mods that modified gameplay in a big way, they wouldn't actually be doing anything.
Again, this isn't what I'm talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1767672:date=Apr 18 2010, 09:54 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 18 2010, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, an explanation is not required: clearly you prefer hollow interactions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same way defending black people makes me grow black skin?..
Well, this is a whole new low of bigotry, inattention and hypocrisy. Nothing more to talk about, I guess.
<!--quoteo(post=1767674:date=Apr 18 2010, 10:29 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Apr 18 2010, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the devs have officially stated how mods are going to play a part in NS2, other than the Vanilla/Custom filter, but I think they should definitely go towards a route that specifically lists ALL mods currently enabled on a given server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I left a note in Suggestions forum somewhere regarding how this could work: make each installed mod be tied to an info file detailing its name, version and so on, so the server tags itself without any effort on admin's part. No missed mod listings, easy categorising.
This is not about how nice the serverbrowser can be so that it can filter/find a "pure" or "unpure" server.
This is about whether or not it's a good idea to have a "pure" mode period.
And "the community won't 'feel wronged'" I disagree. Maybe the <u>new</u> community (which hasn't played NS1) won't feel wronged, but their's a chance some NS1 veterans will be. Join any NS1 server today and their's a good chance you'll be permitted to play with every weapon replaced by a custom one, a bunch of custom marine-structure-props, and every marine looking like a clone trooper (i had this installed at one point... jetpackers were those elite clones with green stripes i think :P).
This is what HALFLIFE 1 is like. What NS1 is like.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97626" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=97626</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68858" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=68858</a>
A "pure" mode would block what is normal in NS1 and i think that is a bad idea.
If there was a compromise where "pure" mode was more about what scripts/mods/custom-game-modes that the SERVER has installed, then i wouldn't see this as a problem (which is the definition of a "Classic" NS1 server today). Most servers will be running custom scripts anyway thereby voiding the "pure" tag. But i don't believe it should go as far as scanning your installation of custom models on your computer to see if anything differs with the server!
First, and this is the topic of the original post, there is the issue of server-side modifications. These could include gameplay modifications such as lerklift and extralevels (examples from NS1) as well as simple tools to aid server administrators. The question here is how to convey the content of such modifications to the players through the server browser.
Second, <i>and this is unrelated to the first issue</i>, there is the issue of client-side aesthetic customization. In NS1 there was an mp_consistency server option so that the server could decide whether to allow players to use custom models and the like. I would expect such an option to appear in NS2 as well.
The "pure" and such words are probably what's causing the confusion... As far as I know, "pure" refers to making sure the client doesn't have any files differing from the server: it enforces consistency, but does not block server-side mods.
First, and this is the topic of the original post, there is the issue of server-side modifications. These could include gameplay modifications such as lerklift and extralevels (examples from NS1) as well as simple tools to aid server administrators. The question here is how to convey the content of such modifications to the players through the server browser.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is exactly what I want to know about, from a server browser screen. Many will want to be able to click a filter and find those servers working with/without any server side modifications. Certainly the naming conventions will do a lot to inform the user, but I'm glad that pure gameplay will be preserved, on both client and server. Pure means unmodified, and that includes server and client side gameplay.
The "pure" and such words are probably what's causing the confusion... As far as I know, <u>"pure" refers to making sure the client doesn't have any files differing from the server: it enforces consistency, <b>but does not block server-side mods.</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. This is basically consistency-control that is compatible with mini-mods.
<!--quoteo(post=1767832:date=Apr 19 2010, 11:33 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Apr 19 2010, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And this is exactly what I want to know about, from a server browser screen. Many will want to be able to click a
filter and find those servers working with/without any server side modifications. Certainly the naming conventions will do a lot to inform the user, but I'm glad that pure gameplay will be preserved, on both client and server. <u>Pure means unmodified, and that includes server and client side gameplay.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With reference to the underlined sentence. WTF! :P
I suggest we include the new flash word "Classic" to describe 100% unmodified/disabling of any SERVER-side modifications, AND enforcement that the SERVER not possess, or attempt to load, any mods or modifications that differ from the original game! The CLIENTs files are ignored for this proposed tag.
Draco_2k's definition of "Pure" seems more useful... i.e. the client downloads the files from the server, and then you can play on the server... including any mini-mod they have configured. But beyond the servers contents you cannot mod your lua files, and i believe any client file including the blocking of any custom content that the server does not also possess.
-----------------
So this is how this could work:
1. you got a server... no tags... That means your server is running custom minimods and content, and their is NO enforcement on the clients files.
2. you got a "Classic" server. This means (like it does for NS1) that the server will be running stock NS2 maps, and no custom scripts of minimods that require being installed on either the server, or both the server and client. In this arrangement the client is permitted to have custom content installed (like in NS1).
3. You got a "Pure" server. This means that (based on Draco_2k's definition of "Pure") that the server is permitted to have custom mods installed, BUT at the client-side level you are also forced to run the servers version of the client-side experience. This means if the server has some custom onos model, then at the client level every player is required to have this also. If the server is running a mario-kart lua mini-mod, then you better believe you'll be driving a go-kart. But you cannot introduce any modifications that the server does not equally posess.
4. You can have a "Pure+Classic i.e. Vanilla" server. This is like Drown's idea of what "Pure" means. I.e. "Pure" implies file consistency on the CLIENT, and "Classic" implies NS2-file-consistency on the SERVER... put the two together and you have 100% stock boring gameplay for the masses. :P
-----------------
Perhaps a drawing to diagram the scope of each "special" word :P
(bounds show the limitations of "special" words)
[======VANILLA======] //"Pure" to some. This is that "fresh-install" experience! Full Stock (or as updated by the devs) NS2 experience forced on the server and client.
[===CLASSIC===] //Forces a "Vanilla" server. This does not limit the client in any way.
Stock NS2
__________[===PURE===] //blocks the client from having content differant from the server. If the server has custom content, then this is forced onto the client.
__________Server
__________________Client
A server without any of these tags is considered "open". The server can run any minimod or custom content or custom map. The client may have the full capability to mod their Lua client-side scripts that the devs permit (which may very well be limited to modding the user-interface, or maybe how the gun's ammo-readout displays etc).
<b><u>Unfortunately this is not explicit enough!</u></b>
There must be <b>2</b> versions of <b>PURE</b>!!!
PURE-MODELS = enforced models to match the server. The server may have custom models forced on the client, unless the PURE server is also CLASSIC, in which case the server will have only stock models to enforce.
PURE-LUA = what 99% of all servers will be running. Your Lua scripts will only run if the server permits this... By only allowing files that match the servers Lua files.
=============================
Naturally you can have any variation of these tags for your server, and no tags if you wish.
And most agree that this should occur.
Any quick add-ons like admin powers or votemaps should easily be able to be integrated and sent into the next build as an option to turn on. That was we can have slight modifications/add-ons for our servers, but still maintain the "sv_pure" paradigm for unaltered gameplay as set by the NS2 devs. The other flagged servers with ZOMG DM mods will be filterable.
mp_consistency will probably be maintained for any sv_pure server. i.e. the client will also have to abide within the set rules of what is allowed to be added/removed by checking its files against the server's (zomg pink skulk textures, not allowed).
Ok explain why it's still "Pure" if the devs set the standard of what is "Pure" but the server can disable or enable these "slight modifications/add-ons" so that people looking for truely unmodified gameplay will encounter these server-side custom configurations at random states of availability across all "Pure" servers.
If the devs want to add some feature to NS2, and this is implied to be "Pure"... then i don't think a server can have a choice about it (regardless of how insignificant the addon/modification is). I think in this use of the word "Pure" that it's soley up to the devs what people experience, and i am exactly talking about carbon-copy unmodded NS2 servers (no slight server-side modifications permitted, and there wouldn't be such a thing as an option over what the server can have running regardless of the modifications complexity).
Will these "Pure" servers be permitted to have custom max-players counts? Only if the devs permit.
Will these "Pure" servers be permitted to run fancy scripts that keep n-number of player slots free for donating server regulars? Definatelly not, unless the devs decide this should be a feature that exists in all NS2 pure servers. I.e. the choice is the devs, and not the server owner.
I think that with the ease folks seem to be playing with LUA already, UWE will probably adopt snippets that they like... sort of like how World of Warcraft often makes the main mods into game features.
If the devs want to add some feature to NS2, and this is implied to be "Pure"... then i don't think a server can have a choice about it (regardless of how insignificant the addon/modification is). I think in this use of the word "Pure" that it's soley up to the devs what people experience, and i am exactly talking about carbon-copy unmodded NS2 servers (no slight server-side modifications permitted, and there wouldn't be such a thing as an option over what the server can have running regardless of the modifications complexity).
Will these "Pure" servers be permitted to have custom max-players counts? Only if the devs permit.
Will these "Pure" servers be permitted to run fancy scripts that keep n-number of player slots free for donating server regulars? Definatelly not, unless the devs decide this should be a feature that exists in all NS2 pure servers. I.e. the choice is the devs, and not the server owner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you're trying to argue that 'pure' must be defined too narrowly to be sensible in order to argue that 'pure' couldn't be a sensible option to have?
Personally I'd rather not be on the same server with your zomg pink skulks and custom invisible wall textures and would quite like a working 'pure' filter - i.e. one that might allow certain things such as admin powers and map voting but nothing that would actually change the game materially.
Personally I'd rather not be on the same server with your zomg pink skulks and custom invisible wall textures and would quite like a working 'pure' filter - i.e. one that might allow certain things such as admin powers and map voting but nothing that would actually change the game materially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think in post #55 i described an approach that will work, and satisfy all server admins desires for various degrees of custom or vanilla-ness. I think i fully fleshed out every variation of a custom or stock server someone may want to run, simply by choosing their variation of the tags i suggest (based on other peoples responses here of course). Let me know if it's lacking.
Anyway my problem with the "Pure" word, is how everyone has their own definition. Someone tries to say "ok Pure is the default game... <i><b>but</b></i> i want the freedoms to run the this collection of custom Lua scripts...because <b>I</b> don't think these alter <b>MY</b> definition of Pure. Btw my server will show up as PURE!!1". And so how can this choice exist without undermining the idea of a "Pure" game.
At the same time we have people that think it's "Ok" for some group of people, for example, to make a "Combat Only" mini-mod for NS2, and have this mod verified by the devs as "OK-To-Run-On-Pure-Servers"... Why? PURE = strictly NS mode!!? (Because as we all know NS2 will not come packaged with CO mode). Is this what you mean as "defined too narrowly to be sensible"? Because i think it's defined just right. Pure = what the devs create.
Pure should not equal "These custom modifications of the game are checked and verified to not be hacks by a committee or some mystery group that would need to be created". Would this be "Pure" mode defined sensibly?
I believe we have here people that want to join a "Pure" vanilla NS2 server anytime they desire. Just set the server browser filter and off they go to join such a server. But in order to give them that experience, then we must be explicit. We must draw the line and say no to custom everything (including every file, Lua scripts included). Right on down the line the server and client need to be like you just freshly installed (and updated) the game (or perhaps the client has custom content which gets auto disabled when joining a "Vanilla" server which is a lot better then needing to reinstall/delete-all-custom-content before joining such a server). Naturally the devs can change and refine the base game... but i'm saying that this base game = Pure mode, and i think this is what the devs want to:
<!--quoteo(post=1766917:date=Apr 14 2010, 02:12 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 14 2010, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes don't worry - the default will be to play on "vanilla" NS2 servers. If you like you can switch to "custom" and play on modded servers, but we haven't worked this long and hard only to see no one play OUR game! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(bounds show the limitations of "special" words)
[======VANILLA======] //"Pure" to some. This is that "fresh-install" experience! Full Stock (or as updated by the devs) NS2 experience forced on the server and client.
[===CLASSIC===] //Forces a "Vanilla" server. This does not limit the client in any way.
Stock NS2
__________[===PURE===] //blocks the client from having content differant from the server. If the server has custom content, then this is forced onto the client.
__________Server
__________________Client
A server without any of these tags is considered "open". The server can run any minimod or custom content or custom map. The client may have the full capability to mod their Lua client-side scripts that the devs permit (which may very well be limited to modding the user-interface, or maybe how the gun's ammo-readout displays etc).
<b><u>Unfortunately this is not explicit enough!</u></b>
There must be <b>2</b> versions of <b>PURE</b>!!!
PURE-MODELS = enforced models to match the server. The server may have custom models forced on the client, unless the PURE server is also CLASSIC, in which case the server will have only stock models to enforce.
PURE-LUA = what 99% of all servers will be running. Your Lua scripts will only run if the server permits this... By only allowing files that match the servers Lua files.
=============================
Naturally you can have any variation of these tags for your server, and no tags if you wish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think perhaps, you are right, we may need to develop a quick and dirty dictionary for the purpose of this discussion.
So, FocusedWolf, basically your taxonomy of servers would include...
[=====Vanilla========]
[====Classic======]
[==PureModels==]
[=PureLua=]
[Custom]
So just to clarify these definitions to make sure we are all on the same page...
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Vanilla. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i>The "boxed" version of the game with no modifications or alterations of any kind on the server or client side. Zero tolerance for changes to either client or server. This server type alone maintains official maps in rotation only.
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
Classic.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i> The "boxed" version of the game with no modifications or alterations of any kind on the server side. Some small tolerance for client side aesthetic alterations. Custom maps mixed with official.
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Pure(models).<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i> Gamplay is modified from the original in small but noticeable ways due to changes to existing lua snippets, but models and graphics are preserved from the original game. Low tolerance for client side alterations.
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Pure(lua).<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> </i> Gamplay is preserved entirely with no modifications but there are some, or many, alterations to models and graphics. High tolerance for client side alterations.
<i><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Custom.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i> No requirements for client or server side preservation of models, lua and gameplay, although servers will likely want to preserve their specific gameplay so there will likely be a vast variation here in tolerances for client side alterations.
Given this taxonomy, I'm not entirely sure it is necessary to differentiate between classic and vanilla, however it is good to have a differentiation here. My only issue is that in order for this to be an effective determination is if the individual servers can ONLY put up flags if they fit the guidelines. I do wish to clarify that in no way is this a gradient of 'good' vs 'bad' or 'pure' vs 'tainted'. In fact I strongly suspect (and will enjoy) how a few months into release custom servers will probably account for half of the total list.