Wasn't Natural Selection 1 balanced for 6vs6? Wouldn't be anything smaller than 6vs6 or larger than 9vs9 pointless, the latter due to the sheer size? I hope it will be the same with Natural Selection 2. I never liked this 18+ slot server, it just robbed much of the atmosphere and the intimacy of the classical 6vs6 game.
To be honest, even though 6v6 games are the competitive norm due to the balance, they felt too empty. I'm not saying go for a 16v16, but there should be a sweet spot somewhere around 8v8 and 12v12 (precise number depending on how the game turns out to be) In any case, I'm thinking large size games are somewhat compensated with the multi-commander mode, but I'm afraid that small games will be boring to death (even moreso than in NS1 when you're waiting to fill a server with an ns_ map)
<!--quoteo(post=1763151:date=Apr 7 2010, 07:43 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Apr 7 2010, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, even though 6v6 games are the competitive norm due to the balance, they felt too empty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, playing public 6vs6 is a pain unless you've got way above average communication and teamwork. Usually public worked the best with something between 18 and 22 players.
I think the two major changes in scalability in NS2 so far have been the res model and power grid. The res model is pretty self explanatory, but the powergrid leaves a lot more open for discussion. At least I could see the grid creating more fights in smaller games and tightening up the gameplay tempo even if the players themselves aren't organised and spreading out effectively. How it works on bigger player counts is another thingy of course. Hopefully the gameplay doesn't become one huge chokepoint grinder at that point.
I think the design of the maps will play an important role in how different sized matches are affected. In particular, the most important factor for maps will be whether or not they can get players to split into smaller squads. Ideally, there should be enough space for players to run around in so that teams can't be everywhere at once, and reward teams that use squads as opposed to "one big traveling mass". 16 aliens and 16 marines charge at each other, it's going to look a lot more like Starcraft than NS2.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I always thought 9v8 (extra for marine comm) was the perfect game size. It's a little bigger than 6v6, but still small enough to have a closer-knit team.
UWE have stated multiple times that the reason for both teams having the same resource models (both marines and aliens get individual resources, while both teams have a commander with its resources) was to make it so teams could be balanced at ANY size. There is probably still an ideal range of team sizes, but in terms of resources, 4v4 should be as balanced as 128v128 now.
<!--quoteo(post=1763155:date=Apr 7 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 7 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763155"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, playing public 6vs6 is a pain unless you've got way above average communication and teamwork. Usually public worked the best with something between 18 and 22 players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not so much the fact that it's easy or difficult at a 6v6. It's just that I feel that there isn't enough action in such a game (and I'll just toss in there that yes, I have already played competitive NS). On the other hand, 12v12 feels like a kill fest. I just think there's too much to be done to spread only 6 people across all the tasks, while putting too many players distills the feeling of NS.
Does this question need to really be asked at this point and time? Especially from you who isn't brand new to these forums.
A similar, if not the same, resource model. Also the same Team Structure(both teams have a Commander or Commanders). All Players have their own Resource/Income Pool for Upgrades, so everyone should be on equal footing if both teams have been playing equal and are the same skill wise.
I honestly expect the Fade to be more like the NS1 1.0 Fade, more of a Hit & Run Class instead of the Superman Rape Alien it currently is. So all Classes will be balanced and have a role. The Marine Jetpack will be more limited now due to proper proportion sized hallways and rooms. And the Heavy will be slow and easy to be picked off if left by itself(kind of like the Heavy from TF2 when he does not have a Medic latched to him).
My Crystal Magic 8-Ball says I am 95% correct in some way.
The problem with the small games is the respawn time coupled with the sheer lack of lethal weaponry for the marines = guaranteed fail most NON-CLAN games (assuming know one else joins the server).
A fade could kill you with a swipe or two... could you kill a fade with a bullet or two? (coms don't hand out shotguns every time you die, and you don't come standard with a shotgun... and yet the fades swipe is comparable to the shotguns (close quarter gun) damage...).
Also the com = 1 less player in the field. The aliens also move faster through the map. If you ever played in this game wouldn't you race at 90mph, as a skulk, to a rt a mile from the hive... and then gorge? How could marines ever beat this.
So ya the game NS1 wasn't very good for small games... it was always a overmatch situation, in favor of the aliens, even with equal teams. 1 fade = 5 marines give or take.
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Hopefully NS2 has all these issues worked out and is scalable for all sizes of games that are possible.
These forums are much more relaxing with the ignore feature. Now I'm blisfully unaware of the stupidity.
In all honesty though I think it'll scale a lot better than NS1 due to the changes made so the teams are more in-line in terms of resource gathering and commanders.
Regardless of how the game balance scales there's still a big issue at least up until 4v4 where the game simply isn't playable because of the comms occupying one whole player per team. If there's never going to be a Combat-style mode then I think there should be a rudimentary no-comm option strictly for filling servers. Start the marines with a base and aliens with hives on a timer, and their tech develops automatically in a set pattern or something. Maybe a plugin would be good enough for this but something standard would be nice.
devicenullJoin Date: 2003-04-30Member: 15967Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1763207:date=Apr 7 2010, 10:05 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Apr 7 2010, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regardless of how the game balance scales there's still a big issue at least up until 4v4 where the game simply isn't playable because of the comms occupying one whole player per team. If there's never going to be a Combat-style mode then I think there should be a rudimentary no-comm option strictly for filling servers. Start the marines with a base and aliens with hives on a timer, and their tech develops automatically in a set pattern or something. Maybe a plugin would be good enough for this but something standard would be nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I'm more worried about. NS1 was essentially unplayable until you had about 4v4, possibly more. Combat really didn't do a whole lot to address this problem, though it was a good effort.
I'm not really sure what the solution is. NS just doesn't work without a bunch of players, but we need to do something about it. I'd love to be able to come up with something.
Do we need to do something about it though? That's like playing a sport on a half-court. It can be done, it just isn't the same game anymore. There's a certain aspect of the game that's only possible because the game isn't a simple shooter.
edit: And before it's misinterpreted. I'm not saying don't go for scalability. It's just that a game that is playable anywhere from a 2v2 to a 32v32 will have some serious balancing issues, and let's not even talk about the feel of the game.
devicenullJoin Date: 2003-04-30Member: 15967Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1763214:date=Apr 7 2010, 10:44 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Apr 7 2010, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do we need to do something about it though? That's like playing a sport on a half-court. It can be done, it just isn't the same game anymore. There's a certain aspect of the game that's only possible because the game isn't a simple shooter.
edit: And before it's misinterpreted. I'm not saying don't go for scalability. It's just that a game that is playable anywhere from a 2v2 to a 32v32 will have some serious balancing issues, and let's not even talk about the feel of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's definitely important. How do you populate a server when the game utterly sucks before 7 other players join?
I'm not saying it needs to be as interesting as the main game. I'm saying it needs to be at least entertaining before that many players join.
<!--quoteo(post=1763177:date=Apr 7 2010, 10:58 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Apr 7 2010, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not so much the fact that it's easy or difficult at a 6v6. It's just that I feel that there isn't enough action in such a game (and I'll just toss in there that yes, I have already played competitive NS). On the other hand, 12v12 feels like a kill fest. I just think there's too much to be done to spread only 6 people across all the tasks, while putting too many players distills the feeling of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I felt 6v6 competetive left a nice opening for map controlling and prioritizing because it took a short while to reach the fights sometimes. I wouldn't mind some more fighting sometimes, but usually the extra elements elsewhere make up for the lack of constant fighting. I guess the weldbots and less RT biting are partitially intented to let the players focus on action while still preserving some of the map control related elements. The weldbots are probably handy in those small games too.
In a 4v4 i would rather have a comm than a 4th marine running about because the comm is very important and if you cant understand why, no one will take your opinion seriously.
If you are so worried about playing a 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 until the server gets populated, leave and join another server. I highly doubt the devs give a sh1t about if the game is balanced for 3v3 game play. If they did, NS2 would never be released.
Here's an idea: design a map that "opens up" as more players join. In as small as 2v2, maybe only a few rooms are available. But, some players join and it's 4v4, and the path to another resource node opens. 6v6, and two more rooms. Etc, etc...
Comments
Wouldn't be anything smaller than 6vs6 or larger than 9vs9 pointless, the latter due to the sheer size?
I hope it will be the same with Natural Selection 2. I never liked this 18+ slot server, it just robbed much of the atmosphere and the intimacy of the classical 6vs6 game.
Yeah, playing public 6vs6 is a pain unless you've got way above average communication and teamwork. Usually public worked the best with something between 18 and 22 players.
I think the two major changes in scalability in NS2 so far have been the res model and power grid. The res model is pretty self explanatory, but the powergrid leaves a lot more open for discussion. At least I could see the grid creating more fights in smaller games and tightening up the gameplay tempo even if the players themselves aren't organised and spreading out effectively. How it works on bigger player counts is another thingy of course. Hopefully the gameplay doesn't become one huge chokepoint grinder at that point.
In particular, the most important factor for maps will be whether or not they can get players to split into smaller squads.
Ideally, there should be enough space for players to run around in so that teams can't be everywhere at once, and reward teams that use squads as opposed to "one big traveling mass". 16 aliens and 16 marines charge at each other, it's going to look a lot more like Starcraft than NS2.
It's not so much the fact that it's easy or difficult at a 6v6. It's just that I feel that there isn't enough action in such a game (and I'll just toss in there that yes, I have already played competitive NS). On the other hand, 12v12 feels like a kill fest. I just think there's too much to be done to spread only 6 people across all the tasks, while putting too many players distills the feeling of NS.
A similar, if not the same, resource model. Also the same Team Structure(both teams have a Commander or Commanders). All Players have their own Resource/Income Pool for Upgrades, so everyone should be on equal footing if both teams have been playing equal and are the same skill wise.
I honestly expect the Fade to be more like the NS1 1.0 Fade, more of a Hit & Run Class instead of the Superman Rape Alien it currently is. So all Classes will be balanced and have a role. The Marine Jetpack will be more limited now due to proper proportion sized hallways and rooms. And the Heavy will be slow and easy to be picked off if left by itself(kind of like the Heavy from TF2 when he does not have a Medic latched to him).
My Crystal Magic 8-Ball says I am 95% correct in some way.
A fade could kill you with a swipe or two... could you kill a fade with a bullet or two? (coms don't hand out shotguns every time you die, and you don't come standard with a shotgun... and yet the fades swipe is comparable to the shotguns (close quarter gun) damage...).
Also the com = 1 less player in the field. The aliens also move faster through the map. If you ever played in this game wouldn't you race at 90mph, as a skulk, to a rt a mile from the hive... and then gorge? How could marines ever beat this.
So ya the game NS1 wasn't very good for small games... it was always a overmatch situation, in favor of the aliens, even with equal teams. 1 fade = 5 marines give or take.
----------------------------
Hopefully NS2 has all these issues worked out and is scalable for all sizes of games that are possible.
In all honesty though I think it'll scale a lot better than NS1 due to the changes made so the teams are more in-line in terms of resource gathering and commanders.
That's what I'm more worried about. NS1 was essentially unplayable until you had about 4v4, possibly more. Combat really didn't do a whole lot to address this problem, though it was a good effort.
I'm not really sure what the solution is. NS just doesn't work without a bunch of players, but we need to do something about it. I'd love to be able to come up with something.
edit: And before it's misinterpreted. I'm not saying don't go for scalability. It's just that a game that is playable anywhere from a 2v2 to a 32v32 will have some serious balancing issues, and let's not even talk about the feel of the game.
edit: And before it's misinterpreted. I'm not saying don't go for scalability. It's just that a game that is playable anywhere from a 2v2 to a 32v32 will have some serious balancing issues, and let's not even talk about the feel of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's definitely important. How do you populate a server when the game utterly sucks before 7 other players join?
I'm not saying it needs to be as interesting as the main game. I'm saying it needs to be at least entertaining before that many players join.
I felt 6v6 competetive left a nice opening for map controlling and prioritizing because it took a short while to reach the fights sometimes. I wouldn't mind some more fighting sometimes, but usually the extra elements elsewhere make up for the lack of constant fighting. I guess the weldbots and less RT biting are partitially intented to let the players focus on action while still preserving some of the map control related elements. The weldbots are probably handy in those small games too.
If you are so worried about playing a 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 until the server gets populated, leave and join another server. I highly doubt the devs give a sh1t about if the game is balanced for 3v3 game play. If they did, NS2 would never be released.