Acceleration as skulk
xmaine
Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68409Members
Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68409Members
Seeing how the NS2 engine is different from what NS1 uses, bunnyhopping will most likely become a thing of the past.
In ns1, the maximum velocity of a skulk while just running was pretty fast. You can move forward, backwards, and side to side at all the same speeds.
The velocity could even be increased with the use of bunnyhopping. The acceleration gained from leap along with bunny hopping helps the skulk maintain a high velocity for some period of time.
This mechanic differentiated the casuals and the competitive.
So what i suggest for the skulk in ns2 is a simple mechanic. You can move forward, backward, and side to side at the same speeds. When you run forward for x amount of time (maybe 3 seconds) the skulk starts to accelerate (1 second?) so that velocity is at its maximum peak. Strafing and jumping does not affect the peak of velocity (holding w and d to run at an angle while jumping to make the skulk unpredictable and harder to hit). Of course if the skulk attaches to the wall, the velocity resets into its normal peak.
Now you can imagine a squad of marines turning a corner in a hallway to see a pack of skulks moving at its fastest speed toward the marines. If the marines don't react quickly enough, you can say hello to dead marines in less that 3 seconds.
Oh how celerity becomes a deadlier weapon as a skulk.
Thoughts? Ideas? Expand? Nerf? Buff? Clarifications?
In ns1, the maximum velocity of a skulk while just running was pretty fast. You can move forward, backwards, and side to side at all the same speeds.
The velocity could even be increased with the use of bunnyhopping. The acceleration gained from leap along with bunny hopping helps the skulk maintain a high velocity for some period of time.
This mechanic differentiated the casuals and the competitive.
So what i suggest for the skulk in ns2 is a simple mechanic. You can move forward, backward, and side to side at the same speeds. When you run forward for x amount of time (maybe 3 seconds) the skulk starts to accelerate (1 second?) so that velocity is at its maximum peak. Strafing and jumping does not affect the peak of velocity (holding w and d to run at an angle while jumping to make the skulk unpredictable and harder to hit). Of course if the skulk attaches to the wall, the velocity resets into its normal peak.
Now you can imagine a squad of marines turning a corner in a hallway to see a pack of skulks moving at its fastest speed toward the marines. If the marines don't react quickly enough, you can say hello to dead marines in less that 3 seconds.
Oh how celerity becomes a deadlier weapon as a skulk.
Thoughts? Ideas? Expand? Nerf? Buff? Clarifications?
Comments
Its a simpler alternative.
Bunnyhopping is just a glitch in hl1 engine.
Bunnyhopping is just a glitch in hl1 engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because it's an accident doesn't make it a bad thing.
Half of the fundamental strategies of old games are technically exploits.
There is a dev statement that bhop will be available for skulks, but I guess it doesn't include the strafejump/aircontrol acceleration part, but only a queued jump system to maintain speed.
Ok, so basicly the skulk has two options to close the distance to marines quickly (besides ambushing) according to your idea:
-simply running forward until acceleration kicks in and adding unpredictable short strafe maneuvers during the approach.
-using walljump (in addition) to evade bullets (if it will be in ns2).
Possible issues:
-good players hold forward behind a crate or obstacle in general in order to strafe out and attack with full speed
-difficult to predict, when the acceleration kicks in, which can screw up your movement in a certain moment (e.g.: getting to a difficult place and all of a sudden you fall into lava, because the acceleration kicks in at the worst possible time)
3 seconds is also damn long time to be making sound on NS1's logic. You want to be at decent speed when you start making sounds, not a few seconds after it.
Someone correct me if my memories has gone bad.
EDIT: I stand corrected. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=107569&st=0&p=1730475&#entry1730475" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...p;#entry1730475</a>
Maybe it should be similar to the marine's sprint?
Nop, it's a combination of control commands.
To make a simple (but yet not perfectly accurate) analogy, a game engine in that aspect is like a car. They build it with certain movement mechanics, then, by skills, people learn to make tricks and stunts out of it... combining control commands.
I just wish they don't lower the skill bar too much.
Someone correct me if my memories has gone bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe they have stated this yes.
I don't think slowing aliens down on landing adds any more to the game and it only serves to provide a new source of irritation for players. I also thoroughly think that whatever speed increases skulks are capable of, they should be movement-induced and not simply as a result of some function in the game.
I don't think slowing aliens down on landing adds any more to the game and it only serves to provide a new source of irritation for players. I also thoroughly think that whatever speed increases skulks are capable of, they should be movement-induced and not simply as a result of some function in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quake Engine strafe jumping holds forward, but you have very little air control. This would make it pretty useless on twisty NS1 style maps because your ability to turn corners with speed is extremely limited. Source and GoldSource games have lots of air control, allow you to conserve forward momentum without holding W, and take away most of your air control if you do.
You can still Bhop in TF2, technically; you can maintain speed without holding forward, the game just checks your ground speed to prevent you from actually going faster. Apparently you can still use it to get a smidgen of extra distance on jumps.
I'd like to have it so that you've got the Quake styled speed gaining _and_ air control without that much effect on speed. The speed gain mechanism is simple and it doesn't punish you for doing wrong things midair, but you still get the depth gameplay wise. Combine that with proper jump timing mechanism and some feedback (cl_showspeed avaible without sv_cheats 1 for example) and the basics can be learned in 5 minutes.
Another thing that really fuddles my amateur bhops is the fact that Skulks stick to walls. Obviously this is a critical gameplay element, but it kinda sucks when grazing a corner or one of those incessant buttresses/pipes/misc ridges that we have <i>bloody everywhere</i> makes me grab on and lose all my speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1757799:date=Mar 7 2010, 01:50 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Mar 7 2010, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Possible issues:
-good players hold forward behind a crate or obstacle in general in order to strafe out and attack with full speed
-difficult to predict, when the acceleration kicks in, which can screw up your movement in a certain moment (e.g.: getting to a difficult place and all of a sudden you fall into lava, because the acceleration kicks in at the worst possible time)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
According to the idea, it will kick it after 3 seconds (which is a really long time, better for it to be something like 1.5 seconds). This isn't unpredictable. Also, for the idea's sake, assume the developers created a good engine that detects when you've actually be moving and not just running into a wall.
<!--quoteo(post=1757813:date=Mar 7 2010, 04:16 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Mar 7 2010, 04:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 seconds is also damn long time to be making sound on NS1's logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I say something like 1.5 to 2 seconds of holding W.
<!--quoteo(post=1758067:date=Mar 8 2010, 11:04 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Mar 8 2010, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The developer team said they wanted to keep movement skilled but intuitive. Bunnyhop wasn't intuitive because it involved using strafe keys to go forward and funny mouse movements so I can understand its drawbacks. What I don't understand is why they can't just keep bunnyhopping but make it so that you hold the +forward key as well. Is this because it's difficult to implement in the engine or what? It's probably a moot point at this stage though I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends. Will the bunnyhopping speed up the already accelerated skulk?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think slowing aliens down on landing adds any more to the game and it only serves to provide a new source of irritation for players. I also thoroughly think that whatever speed increases skulks are capable of, they should be movement-induced and not simply as a result of some function in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A source of irritation for skulks? I think marine players will like that addition.
What do you mean by "movement-induced"? :)
The only reason we should be talking about bhop is to compare it to the proposed idea of accelerating skulks! Except personally I see this as moot since Skulks get leap.
The only reason we should be talking about bhop is to compare it to the proposed idea of accelerating skulks! Except personally I see this as moot since Skulks get leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...but that last word we've heard on it is that Skulks will have bhop, although that might be a little redundant with 1 Hive Leap
You have to ask yourself why you're adding it. Is it because you feel that aliens are too over-powered? If so, there are other nerfs you can implement that don't reduce the fun behind physically playing the game. You want players to feel as unhindered by the environment as possible. For this reason, I don't like the boost to speed after X seconds. It'll create a situation where initial movements feel slow and laborious simply because you know you <i>could</i> be going faster. I think as a developer I would try to avoid this sensation at all costs.
By 'movement-induced' I mean that increases to speed should be as a result of some form of action undertaken by the player other than pressing down a +sprint key. This also solves the problem of feeling slow and laborious to begin with as you know that higher speeds can be reached as the result of some acquired skill, rather than an artificial limitation of the game. I want that insofar as I want to keep movement skill-orientated. It doesn't have to be as difficult to master as bunnyhop was but it would be nice if NS2 was capable of replicating the kind of emphasis on movement that NS1 did. It's part of what made the game so unique and is one of the reasons why it was so heavily played at a competitive level despite the relatively small size of the NS community. Very few other games give the player the opportunity of physically outmaneuvering your opponent. Instead you strafe side to side a bit, maybe add a jump in a random direction and generally aim better than him.
Hm, doing a search brought me to this post, so I stand corrected.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?showtopic=107569&st=0&p=1730475&#entry1730475" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...p;#entry1730475</a>
As for this suggestion, I don't understand why we would want to incentivize Skulks to charge into a fight from a long distance. It doesn't add any real depth to their movement, all it does is penalize them for setting up an ambush in advance.
- DBL Jump
- Timed Jumps
- Acceleration when not being stopped (OP's idea)
Yes the semi-leap that probably makes bhop a bit redundant.
The problem is not that there're some hard skill-based movements, there're hard moves in every console fighting game. You just need to have equal opponents.
1. Skulks can accelerate without limit while falling.
2. Skulks can accelerate only to their top speed while on any surface.
3. Skulks moving above their top speed on walls and ceilings are not penalized.
4. Skulks moving above their top speed on the floor are slowed down to their top speed.
Thus, skulks can gain speed if they "fall-jump" from ceiling to wall or from wall to wall, but if they hit the floor they lose their extra speed.
Encourages skulks to use the walls and ceilings and adds some skill elements, specifically in knowing how to maximize the length of your "fall-time" while not hitting the floor, and requires that skulks know the map, because trying it in a corridor that's too wide will probably see you on the floor, losing your speed.
As a hardcore HL1 valve mod player, The BIGGEST drawback I hated about HL2 was the lack of skill based movement commands compared to HL1.
It ruined the game, and made it more focused only on aim rather than movement AND aim. IMHO, that was like downgrading to console quality as the main focus on consoles is AIM and little skill based movement, compared to most of us PC users can comprehend and learn to do both aim and move specially.
Skill based movements have always carried long term success with many games such as Super Smash Brothers and HL1.
Look at TF2: the only classes viable are the ones with movement enhancing techniques (except medic, but they're so overpowered that it doesn't matter).
Also, in the competitive player teamspeak chat with Flayra, he really seemed like he wanted to make it more like leap from the barbarian in Diablo2, if anyone knows it. A short leap with a thud landing that slows your mobility. Obviously we were like "NoooOoOOoooOOo." Sometimes it seems as though the devs can get a bit too into their trade-offs.
Make of that what you will.
and Smash Brawl is no where near as competitive as Melee as a result :/