<!--quoteo(post=1757039:date=Mar 4 2010, 10:02 AM:name=daidalos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (daidalos @ Mar 4 2010, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just wanted to know what kind of achievement a "well engineered" one is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> :|
"As a Commander, heal a marine with a medpack while he is taking damage."
This could be extended to multiple times, etcetc.
But because I for a fact know i'm going to get devil's advocates, any achievement that requires play can be griefed to get, or abused. The thing is though, your whining is falling on deaf ears because the population that does that is TINY. It just isn't an issue.
If you have something to say then say it. Don't be shy.
<!--quoteo(post=1757042:date=Mar 4 2010, 07:17 PM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 4 2010, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"As a Commander, heal a marine with a medpack while he is taking damage."
This could be extended to multiple times, etcetc.
But because I for a fact know i'm going to get devil's advocates, any achievement that requires play can be griefed to get, or abused. The thing is though, your whining is falling on deaf ears because the population that does that is TINY. It just isn't an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we are having different understandings of the specific topic we are talking about. Despite the flame, is that kind of achievement just a simple task that can be done with little necessary skill or is it carefully constructed and quite difficult to achieve, maybe even level-related. Something as in trying to get onto the pipes on Triad (ns_tanith I think).
<!--quoteo(post=1757042:date=Mar 4 2010, 03:17 PM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 4 2010, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But because I for a fact know i'm going to get devil's advocates, any achievement that requires play can be griefed to get, or abused. The thing is though, your whining is falling on deaf ears because the population that does that is TINY. It just isn't an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just wanted to add that this is behavior that server admins can always kick/ban for, if they want to promote more competitive gameplay.
I don't have a problem with achievements being added...it's fun for some people, and it doesn't hurt people who prefer "serious" gameplay as long as they play on the right servers (which they would tend to do anyway)
Why are we having this discussion <b>again</b>, and why is it even in general? Achievements do not and never will provide for anything but silly entertainment that does not belong in NS2 (notwithstanding NS2 being made a casual ADD-fest).
@Cyanide et. al those pro-achievements: 1) *anything* can be said to be arbitrarily 'good' if you simply qualify it with "oh but as long as it is X Y and Z, and isn't A B, or C" 2) Yes, we know UWE is indie and that achievements are a source of income, but who's income? not any we'd want to see in the playerbase. Hats on gorges would 'tenfold' sales too, let's put bread on Charlie's table by giving gorges party hats! 3) All of the "pro" exampes you gave are falsifiable. Give an achievement for healing and gorges will be running into the fray mid-battle to try and get heals before their teammates return to the hive. Give an achievement for dropping meds on a moving target... do I even NEED to explain why this is bad?
It may be a "tiny minority" who would outright abuse achievements, but likewise it is <b>the same tiny minority</b> who would buy a game simply because it offers achievements. So why condone adding silliness to NS2 simply to benefit this lewd minority?
Its hilarious how if it isn't in ns1, chances are everyone will shoot the idea down.
YES there <u>should </u>be achievements, its going to be on steam and there needs a perk to having the game on steam. And believe it or not it will help to sell the game to have some achievements.
If you are someone that could care less about it then do so and ignore them.
<!--quoteo(post=1757059:date=Mar 4 2010, 08:49 PM:name=Razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razor @ Mar 4 2010, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its hilarious how if it isn't in ns1, chances are everyone will shoot the idea down.
YES there <u>should </u>be achievements, its going to be on steam and there needs a perk to having the game on steam. And believe it or not it will help to sell the game to have some achievements.
If you are someone that could care less about it then do so and ignore them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you trying to say that the only reason this game should contain achievements is because it is on Steam? Could you please elaborate on how exactly you draw that conclusion?
Please don't introduce any extrinsic motivation that might take away from the only thing that games have to offer - the enjoyment and the fun of JUST playing.
I suppose it isn't such a unique thing any more to have achievements. I didn't say that was the only reason I said its a perk for being on steam. You know some people are completionists right? They get games and get the all the achievements for them. Would you rather the players populated the servers less in the long run because they don't have anything else to play for?
Okay, I've basically seen only two coherent points as to the downside of achievements: 1. Popups are annoying. 2. They encourage "wrong" behavior.
#1 can be handled with a simple toggle option: Show Achievements in Game
As for #2, avoiding the whole question of "Who made you the judge of what's wrong for me to do in a game", we can address this by ensuring that the achievements encourage "right" behavior.
So, some right behaviors are, of course, learning to use the weapons properly. This is where the "kill x with y" achievements come into play. Yet even these take some thought. Is using a knife on an onos the proper way to use a knife? Generally not.. so let's not have any achievements that encourage that.
Is responding to a resource tower being attacked a right action? Usually. Let's have an achievement that rewards that then.
Is responding to the Commander or HiveMind orders a right action? Usually. So we should have an achievement toward that.
Is not getting hit a right action? I'd argue it isn't. Surviving while under attack is a right action, as is killing something or taking out an enemy structure without getting hit.. but those are different actions from simply not getting hit.
And we can go even further with this.. what if doing the "wrong" things took away achievements? Say that if you ignored too many commands from a commander you'd lose the dutiful soldier achievement.. after all, I don't think there's anything that says achievements have to be permanent.
So I see them as being good for teaching people how to play the game, and really don't understand the objections to them -- providing that they're well thought out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't almost every game on Steam that isn't subpar required to have a set of achievement points? And although it's encouraging weird gameplay it's pretty much standard on Steam, and it doesn't cause much real harm if the developers make the achievements into something that's not stupid ("Hit a Lerk on the clorf with grenade while bunny-hopping").
<!--quoteo(post=1757065:date=Mar 4 2010, 03:05 PM:name=Razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razor @ Mar 4 2010, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose it isn't such a unique thing any more to have achievements. I didn't say that was the only reason I said its a perk for being on steam. You know some people are completionists right? They get games and get the all the achievements for them. Would you rather the players populated the servers less in the long run because they don't have anything else to play for?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you argue for something simply because it's possible. Fallacy. So you force a choice between empty servers or silly gameplay and fail to recognize people may still play because IT IS A GOOD GAME. False dichotomy.
Every argument in this thread exhibits some form of poor/faulty logic.
<!--quoteo(post=1757071:date=Mar 4 2010, 03:37 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Mar 4 2010, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, I've basically seen only two coherent points as to the downside of achievements: 1. Popups are annoying. 2. They encourage "wrong" behavior.
So, some right behaviors are, of course, learning to use the weapons properly. This is where the "kill x with y" achievements come into play. Yet even these take some thought. Is using a knife on an onos the proper way to use a knife? Generally not.. so let's not have any achievements that encourage that.
Is responding to a resource tower being attacked a right action? Usually. Let's have an achievement that rewards that then.
Is responding to the Commander or HiveMind orders a right action? Usually. So we should have an achievement toward that.
Is not getting hit a right action? I'd argue it isn't. Surviving while under attack is a right action, as is killing something or taking out an enemy structure without getting hit.. but those are different actions from simply not getting hit.
And we can go even further with this.. what if doing the "wrong" things took away achievements? ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you are attempting to do here is force a curve to approximate an "ultimate goal" that achieves only good gameplay. You propose that you start out with an achievement and continually mold it until it promotes everything good and nothing bad.
Here's what you don't see (and would have had you searched for the last thread on this): there is only ONE achievement/goal that does this exactly, and it's already built into the game: it's called <u>good gameplay</u>.
It's a self-evident truth: good, enjoyable gameplay is the ONLY achievement that promotes more, good enjoyable gameplay. Any achievement can only hope to approximate this and as a result any approximation can be proven to be deviate from this ultimate goal, no matter how slightly and thus fall victim to abuse/unwanted behaviour.
I'll be sure to create an achievement brainstorming thread after Alpha is out, when we can guess what to base good criteria for them on. I'm sure something can be done in that area.
<!--quoteo(post=1757075:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:44 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Mar 4 2010, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't almost every game on Steam that isn't subpar required to have a set of achievement points?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all. Most games released on Steam have no achievements.
I think achievements are exclusive to Steamworks, and so games that use them incorporate them because... Well, because they can. Not exactly a huge deal.
Would be fine with achievements as long as it isnt something like "Kill an Onos with the knife" as said on the first page. Only things that follow the style of gameplay. If you dont like achievements: F*ck 'em! ;) But believe it or not but achievs are big seller for a lot of people. It would only do good with achievs IF its the right kind ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1757082:date=Mar 4 2010, 01:59 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 4 2010, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a self-evident truth: good, enjoyable gameplay is the ONLY achievement that promotes more, good enjoyable gameplay. Any achievement can only hope to approximate this and as a result any approximation can be proven to be deviate from this ultimate goal, no matter how slightly and thus fall victim to abuse/unwanted behaviour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Usually when someone is claiming everybody else is using faulty logic, it would behoove them to know what faulty logic actually is. In this case, the faulty logic in your argument is well known. It's called the black-and-white fallacy, where any middle point between extremes is classified as one of the extremes.
Thus, it's only self-evident to you.
In truth, because we hope NS2 is not a binary state between "Good" and "Sucks" there's actually a range of good enjoyable gameplay that can occur, and approximations toward *better* gameplay thus certainly exist and can be useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1757103:date=Mar 4 2010, 04:06 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Mar 4 2010, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Usually when someone is claiming everybody else is using faulty logic, it would behoove them to know what faulty logic actually is. In this case, the faulty logic in your argument is well known. It's called the black-and-white fallacy, where any middle point between extremes is classified as one of the extremes.
Thus, it's only self-evident to you.
In truth, because we hope NS2 is not a binary state between "Good" and "Sucks" there's actually a range of good enjoyable gameplay that can occur, and approximations toward *better* gameplay thus certainly exist and can be useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1756967:date=Mar 4 2010, 07:07 AM:name=rofldinho)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rofldinho @ Mar 4 2010, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could NS2 benefit from having Left4Dead or Modern Warfare style achievements/accomplishments implemented into the game? Or would it be too mainstream for NS?
I personally think it's something that appeals to a good number of gamers. If you can get achievements like "parasite 5 marines without dying" or "killed a marine with Gorge bile whilst mounted on flying Lerk", it adds some fun to the game when trying to get those achievements for those who like to do things like that, as well as encouraging advanced teamplay. And with NS2 now being on Steam, it would be cool to be able to look at a friend's steam community page to see statistics and achievements as it was with Left4Dead etc.
So will there be achievements in the game?
PS edited as clearly "crazy" achievements are bad, but teamwork encouraging ones are good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate "Achievements" you aren't achieving anything!
If you want achievements go play xbox 360, why is it fun to get an imaginary trophy doing some random task in a game in the first place?
<!--quoteo(post=1757103:date=Mar 5 2010, 01:06 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Mar 5 2010, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Usually when someone is claiming everybody else is using faulty logic, it would behoove them to know what faulty logic actually is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't... No, don't try to reason with Renegade. Just don't. I really don't know what to add, I just feel obliged to pass on experience.
Also yes, that does look like a false dichotomy. Well-spotted.
<!--quoteo(post=1757110:date=Mar 5 2010, 01:17 AM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Mar 5 2010, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want achievements go play xbox 360, why is it fun to get an imaginary trophy doing some random task in a game in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It feeds on our most basic social values. To be most concise: "Oh look, a penny!" Of course it's also an extension of the concept of gameplay itself (why is it fun to get an imaginary completition of some random game?), except most achievements out there are guilty of setting very boring gameplay goals.
I find achievements to be enjoyable when they are incorporated as a fun, optional, layer of gameplay: like the Gnome in Episode 2 or recently added Radios in Portal.
<!--quoteo(post=1756970:date=Mar 4 2010, 07:26 AM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Mar 4 2010, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tbh, achievement suck, 3 seconds and a person has made a specific achievement map, resulting in lots of people have a ######load of achievements that no longer mean anything (like in tf2, achievements are so easy to get with some servers)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not everyone farms achievements, and if I were on a server with someone who had every achievement while I only had a few then I wouldn't feel any different. Of course as said before, the achievements would need to promote teamwork and not ask you to do something that you would normally not do. Also even if people make achievement maps or farming servers then what does it matter? No one is forcing you to join their server, no one is forcing you to unfairly gain your achievements. I play TF2 a lot and all the servers I go to are always populated and have great players. I think a majority of the community would play the game as intended and wouldn't be affected by those who don't.
Whether achievements are added or not I wont mind, as they wouldn't affect my gaming experience at all.
If you like achievements so much just come up with your own ones, and write them down on a piece of paper when you unlock them. You can even post a picture of that on the intarwebz.
On a more serious note: There's one achievement that's built in by default. It's called winning the round. You play well, you win. Achievement granted. Hooray! Everything else is a distraction from the actual game. At best.
<!--quoteo(post=1757103:date=Mar 4 2010, 05:06 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Mar 4 2010, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In truth, because we hope NS2 is not a binary state between "Good" and "Sucks" there's actually a range of good enjoyable gameplay that can occur, and approximations toward *better* gameplay thus certainly exist and can be useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You must be confused with the false dichotomies and logical fallacies I've been busy refuting - do try to discern between posts more carefully.
If you can find such a point you claim exists to *better* gameplay, why withhold it? It's unfortunate that some need for things like combat to happen before they have an inkling of what is deleterious to NS gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1757112:date=Mar 4 2010, 05:18 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 4 2010, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feeds on our most basic social values. To be most concise: "Oh look, a penny!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How fitting, I'm sure it well summarizes the extent of your social cognition. Fortunately there are others (and I believe the majority of the NS community) who obtain their gaming entertainment from something just a little more substantial: core unadorned gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1757120:date=Mar 4 2010, 05:36 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Mar 4 2010, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's one achievement that's built in by default. It's called winning the round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
<!--quoteo(post=1757110:date=Mar 4 2010, 05:17 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Mar 4 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want achievements go play xbox 360, why is it fun to get an imaginary trophy doing some random task in a game in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why is it fun to triumph over imaginary aliens or imaginary future space marines in an imaginary spaceship with people you don't even know doing random tasks like welding, biting, and commanding anyway?
<!--quoteo(post=1757120:date=Mar 4 2010, 03:36 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Mar 4 2010, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you like achievements so much just come up with your own ones, and write them down on a piece of paper when you unlock them. You can even post a picture of that on the intarwebz.
On a more serious note: There's one achievement that's built in by default. It's called winning the round. You play well, you win. Achievement granted. Hooray! Everything else is a distraction from the actual game. At best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On a more serious note.. how do additional achievements detract from your gameplay?
Are you just against them because you don't like people to have fun in ways that you don't, or is there something about them that actually reduces your enjoyment of the game?
<!--quoteo(post=1757130:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:57 PM:name=friedricekid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (friedricekid @ Mar 4 2010, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why is it fun to triumph over imaginary aliens or imaginary future space marines in an imaginary spaceship with people you don't even know doing random tasks like welding, biting, and commanding anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only achievements NS2 should have are team base achievements .. not exactly sure what the are now.. otherwise it promotes individual game play.. which is exactly what will kill NS
If this topic weren't written by a member for members to read, the outcome would be different. I always find it disgusting how members react to another members thread. Most members will read another members thread/post with negativity and criticism (like you are with this post you're reading, you're not open minded) and react that way. No, infact, if this topic were written by an official NS2 game developer stating that they were going to implement achievements, everyone would react differently.
"Oh what a great idea!" "What achievements do you think you'll consider" "I have a few suggestions" blah blah blah
I for one agree with the original poster and think that achievements would give this game replay value. It is what achievements do, even when you get bored with a game, you can always replay it for achievements or what not. What happens when a good suggestion like this doesn't get implemented because the game developers listened to a small community which supports a big project? All I can assume is that the game wouldn't be the same as if it were implemented. A lot of these type of suggestions really require a bigger community decision than just the hard-core NS members that already reside here, granted that they should be the ones that shape the future for the game. However, I believe this game will explode when it comes out and it'll encounter non-NS played people. You then will get people who want achievements or some other stuff that people in the current community (now) think is a bad idea. Sniper Rifle anyone? Battle Rifle?
That achievements are detracting players from winning sounds is a bit silly. Why do most people play anyway? I <i>think </i>it is to have fun. And although I hardly see the point of achievements myself, the larger crowd that will come eventually will enjoy it. When the time comes about the achievements (will they even add them in the first place?) I think the developers would keep an open mind and not make it detrimental to the outcome of the game. To say achievements have no positive outcome is just ignoring facts, it's a well established thing in gaming and probably will stay like that. Gives some more replayability for the sake of... nothing I guess, but it's like that shiny penny as Draco put it.
Comments
:|
"As a Commander, heal a marine with a medpack while he is taking damage."
This could be extended to multiple times, etcetc.
But because I for a fact know i'm going to get devil's advocates, any achievement that requires play can be griefed to get, or abused. The thing is though, your whining is falling on deaf ears because the population that does that is TINY. It just isn't an issue.
If you have something to say then say it.
Don't be shy.
<!--quoteo(post=1757042:date=Mar 4 2010, 07:17 PM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Mar 4 2010, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"As a Commander, heal a marine with a medpack while he is taking damage."
This could be extended to multiple times, etcetc.
But because I for a fact know i'm going to get devil's advocates, any achievement that requires play can be griefed to get, or abused. The thing is though, your whining is falling on deaf ears because the population that does that is TINY. It just isn't an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we are having different understandings of the specific topic we are talking about.
Despite the flame, is that kind of achievement just a simple task that can be done with little necessary skill or is it carefully constructed and quite difficult to achieve, maybe even level-related. Something as in trying to get onto the pipes on Triad (ns_tanith I think).
Just wanted to add that this is behavior that server admins can always kick/ban for, if they want to promote more competitive gameplay.
I don't have a problem with achievements being added...it's fun for some people, and it doesn't hurt people who prefer "serious" gameplay as long as they play on the right servers (which they would tend to do anyway)
And dont just throw in like 1000 of them (tf2, wow) - less but better - there shouldnt be any "kill xxx skulks"
@Cyanide et. al those pro-achievements:
1) *anything* can be said to be arbitrarily 'good' if you simply qualify it with "oh but as long as it is X Y and Z, and isn't A B, or C"
2) Yes, we know UWE is indie and that achievements are a source of income, but who's income? not any we'd want to see in the playerbase. Hats on gorges would 'tenfold' sales too, let's put bread on Charlie's table by giving gorges party hats!
3) All of the "pro" exampes you gave are falsifiable. Give an achievement for healing and gorges will be running into the fray mid-battle to try and get heals before their teammates return to the hive.
Give an achievement for dropping meds on a moving target... do I even NEED to explain why this is bad?
It may be a "tiny minority" who would outright abuse achievements, but likewise it is <b>the same tiny minority</b> who would buy a game simply because it offers achievements. So why condone adding silliness to NS2 simply to benefit this lewd minority?
YES there <u>should </u>be achievements, its going to be on steam and there needs a perk to having the game on steam. And believe it or not it will help to sell the game to have some achievements.
If you are someone that could care less about it then do so and ignore them.
YES there <u>should </u>be achievements, its going to be on steam and there needs a perk to having the game on steam. And believe it or not it will help to sell the game to have some achievements.
If you are someone that could care less about it then do so and ignore them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you trying to say that the only reason this game should contain achievements is because it is on Steam?
Could you please elaborate on how exactly you draw that conclusion?
1. Popups are annoying.
2. They encourage "wrong" behavior.
#1 can be handled with a simple toggle option: Show Achievements in Game
As for #2, avoiding the whole question of "Who made you the judge of what's wrong for me to do in a game", we can address this by ensuring that the achievements encourage "right" behavior.
So, some right behaviors are, of course, learning to use the weapons properly. This is where the "kill x with y" achievements come into play. Yet even these take some thought. Is using a knife on an onos the proper way to use a knife? Generally not.. so let's not have any achievements that encourage that.
Is responding to a resource tower being attacked a right action? Usually. Let's have an achievement that rewards that then.
Is responding to the Commander or HiveMind orders a right action? Usually. So we should have an achievement toward that.
Is not getting hit a right action? I'd argue it isn't. Surviving while under attack is a right action, as is killing something or taking out an enemy structure without getting hit.. but those are different actions from simply not getting hit.
And we can go even further with this.. what if doing the "wrong" things took away achievements? Say that if you ignored too many commands from a commander you'd lose the dutiful soldier achievement.. after all, I don't think there's anything that says achievements have to be permanent.
So I see them as being good for teaching people how to play the game, and really don't understand the objections to them -- providing that they're well thought out.
And although it's encouraging weird gameplay it's pretty much standard on Steam, and it doesn't cause much real harm if the developers make the achievements into something that's not stupid ("Hit a Lerk on the clorf with grenade while bunny-hopping").
So you argue for something simply because it's possible. Fallacy.
So you force a choice between empty servers or silly gameplay and fail to recognize people may still play because IT IS A GOOD GAME. False dichotomy.
Every argument in this thread exhibits some form of poor/faulty logic.
<!--quoteo(post=1757071:date=Mar 4 2010, 03:37 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Mar 4 2010, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay, I've basically seen only two coherent points as to the downside of achievements:
1. Popups are annoying.
2. They encourage "wrong" behavior.
So, some right behaviors are, of course, learning to use the weapons properly. This is where the "kill x with y" achievements come into play. Yet even these take some thought. Is using a knife on an onos the proper way to use a knife? Generally not.. so let's not have any achievements that encourage that.
Is responding to a resource tower being attacked a right action? Usually. Let's have an achievement that rewards that then.
Is responding to the Commander or HiveMind orders a right action? Usually. So we should have an achievement toward that.
Is not getting hit a right action? I'd argue it isn't. Surviving while under attack is a right action, as is killing something or taking out an enemy structure without getting hit.. but those are different actions from simply not getting hit.
And we can go even further with this.. what if doing the "wrong" things took away achievements? ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you are attempting to do here is force a curve to approximate an "ultimate goal" that achieves only good gameplay. You propose that you start out with an achievement and continually mold it until it promotes everything good and nothing bad.
Here's what you don't see (and would have had you searched for the last thread on this): there is only ONE achievement/goal that does this exactly, and it's already built into the game: it's called <u>good gameplay</u>.
It's a self-evident truth: good, enjoyable gameplay is the ONLY achievement that promotes more, good enjoyable gameplay. Any achievement can only hope to approximate this and as a result any approximation can be proven to be deviate from this ultimate goal, no matter how slightly and thus fall victim to abuse/unwanted behaviour.
<!--quoteo(post=1757075:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:44 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Mar 4 2010, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't almost every game on Steam that isn't subpar required to have a set of achievement points?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all. Most games released on Steam have no achievements.
I think achievements are exclusive to Steamworks, and so games that use them incorporate them because... Well, because they can. Not exactly a huge deal.
If you dont like achievements: F*ck 'em! ;) But believe it or not but achievs are big seller for a lot of people.
It would only do good with achievs IF its the right kind ;)
Usually when someone is claiming everybody else is using faulty logic, it would behoove them to know what faulty logic actually is.
In this case, the faulty logic in your argument is well known. It's called the black-and-white fallacy, where any middle point between extremes is classified as one of the extremes.
Thus, it's only self-evident to you.
In truth, because we hope NS2 is not a binary state between "Good" and "Sucks" there's actually a range of good enjoyable gameplay that can occur, and approximations toward *better* gameplay thus certainly exist and can be useful.
In this case, the faulty logic in your argument is well known. It's called the black-and-white fallacy, where any middle point between extremes is classified as one of the extremes.
Thus, it's only self-evident to you.
In truth, because we hope NS2 is not a binary state between "Good" and "Sucks" there's actually a range of good enjoyable gameplay that can occur, and approximations toward *better* gameplay thus certainly exist and can be useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post of the year. Thank you Kwil.
I personally think it's something that appeals to a good number of gamers. If you can get achievements like "parasite 5 marines without dying" or "killed a marine with Gorge bile whilst mounted on flying Lerk", it adds some fun to the game when trying to get those achievements for those who like to do things like that, as well as encouraging advanced teamplay. And with NS2 now being on Steam, it would be cool to be able to look at a friend's steam community page to see statistics and achievements as it was with Left4Dead etc.
So will there be achievements in the game?
PS edited as clearly "crazy" achievements are bad, but teamwork encouraging ones are good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate "Achievements" you aren't achieving anything!
If you want achievements go play xbox 360, why is it fun to get an imaginary trophy doing some random task in a game in the first place?
Don't... No, don't try to reason with Renegade. Just don't. I really don't know what to add, I just feel obliged to pass on experience.
Also yes, that does look like a false dichotomy. Well-spotted.
<!--quoteo(post=1757110:date=Mar 5 2010, 01:17 AM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Mar 5 2010, 01:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want achievements go play xbox 360, why is it fun to get an imaginary trophy doing some random task in a game in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It feeds on our most basic social values. To be most concise: "Oh look, a penny!" Of course it's also an extension of the concept of gameplay itself (why is it fun to get an imaginary completition of some random game?), except most achievements out there are guilty of setting very boring gameplay goals.
I find achievements to be enjoyable when they are incorporated as a fun, optional, layer of gameplay: like the Gnome in Episode 2 or recently added Radios in Portal.
Not everyone farms achievements, and if I were on a server with someone who had every achievement while I only had a few then I wouldn't feel any different. Of course as said before, the achievements would need to promote teamwork and not ask you to do something that you would normally not do.
Also even if people make achievement maps or farming servers then what does it matter? No one is forcing you to join their server, no one is forcing you to unfairly gain your achievements. I play TF2 a lot and all the servers I go to are always populated and have great players. I think a majority of the community would play the game as intended and wouldn't be affected by those who don't.
Whether achievements are added or not I wont mind, as they wouldn't affect my gaming experience at all.
On a more serious note: There's one achievement that's built in by default. It's called winning the round. You play well, you win. Achievement granted. Hooray! Everything else is a distraction from the actual game. At best.
You must be confused with the false dichotomies and logical fallacies I've been busy refuting - do try to discern between posts more carefully.
If you can find such a point you claim exists to *better* gameplay, why withhold it? It's unfortunate that some need for things like combat to happen before they have an inkling of what is deleterious to NS gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1757112:date=Mar 4 2010, 05:18 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 4 2010, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feeds on our most basic social values. To be most concise: "Oh look, a penny!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How fitting, I'm sure it well summarizes the extent of your social cognition. Fortunately there are others (and I believe the majority of the NS community) who obtain their gaming entertainment from something just a little more substantial: core unadorned gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1757120:date=Mar 4 2010, 05:36 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Mar 4 2010, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's one achievement that's built in by default. It's called winning the round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
why is it fun to triumph over imaginary aliens or imaginary future space marines in an imaginary spaceship with people you don't even know doing random tasks like welding, biting, and commanding anyway?
On a more serious note: There's one achievement that's built in by default. It's called winning the round. You play well, you win. Achievement granted. Hooray! Everything else is a distraction from the actual game. At best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On a more serious note.. how do additional achievements detract from your gameplay?
Are you just against them because you don't like people to have fun in ways that you don't, or is there something about them that actually reduces your enjoyment of the game?
An imaginary triumph at best, I'd add.
No, infact, if this topic were written by an official NS2 game developer stating that they were going to implement achievements, everyone would react differently.
"Oh what a great idea!"
"What achievements do you think you'll consider"
"I have a few suggestions"
blah blah blah
I for one agree with the original poster and think that achievements would give this game replay value. It is what achievements do, even when you get bored with a game, you can always replay it for achievements or what not.
What happens when a good suggestion like this doesn't get implemented because the game developers listened to a small community which supports a big project? All I can assume is that the game wouldn't be the same as if it were implemented. A lot of these type of suggestions really require a bigger community decision than just the hard-core NS members that already reside here, granted that they should be the ones that shape the future for the game. However, I believe this game will explode when it comes out and it'll encounter non-NS played people. You then will get people who want achievements or some other stuff that people in the current community (now) think is a bad idea.
Sniper Rifle anyone? Battle Rifle?
I <i>think </i>it is to have fun. And although I hardly see the point of achievements myself, the larger crowd that will come eventually will enjoy it. When the time comes about the achievements (will they even add them in the first place?) I think the developers would keep an open mind and not make it detrimental to the outcome of the game.
To say achievements have no positive outcome is just ignoring facts, it's a well established thing in gaming and probably will stay like that. Gives some more replayability for the sake of... nothing I guess, but it's like that shiny penny as Draco put it.