Will webs make a return?
Slycaster
Limited Edition Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 24Members, NS1 Playtester
Limited Edition Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 24Members, NS1 Playtester
After obvious problems with the half-life engine and coding webs to not be exploitive, it made sense to me why they were taken out. However, with the Gorge playing a lessened support role with the alien commander dealing with chambers, is our little guy still going to be able to provide crowd control this way?
I loved webs, and always thought if done right they add not only a foreboding sense, but are somewhat of the mine equivilance in being resourceful and tactical. Will NS2 see webs back in action?
I loved webs, and always thought if done right they add not only a foreboding sense, but are somewhat of the mine equivilance in being resourceful and tactical. Will NS2 see webs back in action?
Comments
Or maybe a new chamber that creates webs around it by linking from itself to close walls with strands of web. And when shot or touched(close proximity) emits spores. Maybe when it is shot and it hits a certain interval for its HP, it emits the umbra as well.
Yes I know they combined spores+umbra, would be kind of imba if it did both everytime. That is if umbra portion of new spores is imba.
Maybe this chamber would also be the new detector as well, kind of like the sensory chamber.
The pure defensive "chamber, opposite of the OC".
Whoever it is built by is up for debate (Gorge or Hivemind or both).
Correct me if I'm wrong but... they weren't taken out, right? Or have I gone crazy?
Taken out as a feature of NS2 I think was the intent.
As for webs playstyle, I agree. They were a great defensive tool for the gorge.
Originally, when they were Hive 2, they were a staple of kharaa defense, especially against Jetpacks. I have many fond memories of desperately trying to stop a rogue Jetpacker with a HMG from taking a Hive out (this was before Lerk bite was added too) by strategic webbing. Perhaps the devs remember those days too, and want to revive them.
This. 2-Hive web was fantastic. And is what I meant about them "being in the game", considering 3 hive support abilities are generally wasted in the original NS.
Or maybe a new chamber that creates webs around it by linking from itself to close walls with strands of web. And when shot or touched(close proximity) emits spores. Maybe when it is shot and it hits a certain interval for its HP, it emits the umbra as well.
Yes I know they combined spores+umbra, would be kind of imba if it did both everytime. That is if umbra portion of new spores is imba.
Maybe this chamber would also be the new detector as well, kind of like the sensory chamber.
The pure defensive "chamber, opposite of the OC".
Whoever it is built by is up for debate (Gorge or Hivemind or both).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hell, while we're at it, why not make a chamber that auto wins the game for the aliens when built.
hell, while we're at it, why not make an inane nonconstructive response.
xposed has a point. Good lord, does everyone on this forum vehemently oppose ever playing on the marine team? Devour was an obnoxious time-waster for the marines, as was webs. I wouldn't mind webs returning as long as they were changed to be more balanced. Limiting the number of webs or allowing the marine to still shoot while webbed, or something else like that. Maybe making webs only last a certain amount of time before disappearing.
Jimyd's post about the chamber is the equivalent of a gun for the marines that automatically goes through armor, heals the marine when he's damaged, increases his speed, and makes his bullets home in on enemy targets.
Devour I'll agree with you, because there's really not much of a counter to it at Hive 2. Spam stomp, devour, run off, player left staring at stomach for what is probably 30 seconds, but feels like 2 hours. Webs though, have tons of counters. Welders are the cheapest and easiest solution, and even better, a teammate with a welder can unweb you. Grenades, both from the launcher and the hand variety, take care of them too.
However the biggest reason why I think webs should be a staple in NS2? They promote teamwork <i>on both sides</i>. A lone Gorge webbing up a Marine usually can't take them out solo, even with adren. However, if they have teammates nearby, and can co-ordinate with them, they can take out multiple marines with the right timing. On the other hand, the danger of webs can be negated greatly for the Marines by working together; being quick with welders, protecting the teammate with the grenade launcher, putting pressure on the gorge responsible etc.
However the biggest reason why I think webs should be a staple in NS2? They promote teamwork <i>on both sides</i>. A lone Gorge webbing up a Marine usually can't take them out solo, even with adren. However, if they have teammates nearby, and can co-ordinate with them, they can take out multiple marines with the right timing. On the other hand, the danger of webs can be negated greatly for the Marines by working together; being quick with welders, protecting the teammate with the grenade launcher, putting pressure on the gorge responsible etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All good ideas but the web still needs a weakness imo
Maybe it should dissipate when it has received enough damage.
<!--quoteo(post=1754883:date=Feb 23 2010, 08:00 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 23 2010, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1754883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour I'll agree with you, because there's really not much of a counter to it at Hive 2. Spam stomp, devour, run off, player left staring at stomach for what is probably 30 seconds, but feels like 2 hours. Webs though, have tons of counters. Welders are the cheapest and easiest solution, and even better, a teammate with a welder can unweb you. Grenades, both from the launcher and the hand variety, take care of them too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counters to devour can be counters to Onos:
1. JPs(though in the average ns_classic games, the average player doesn't do well with JPs against anything non-Onos so it may be risky).
2. HMGs(they fire approximately 10 shots per second, each shot deals 20 damage. Usually the com will have at least weapons 1 by then, thus 220 damage/sec. A typical redeem Onos has 2100 HP(900 HP + 600 armor[1 armor = 2 hitpoints at hive 1 and 2]), it takes only 11 seconds(counting innate regeneration for Onos, at 1% max HP per 1 second) for a level 1 HMG to kill an Onos.
Since typical there will be more than one marine, the Onos will be less and less threatening.
That's why past NS 1.0x versions, Onos were less and less feared. Instead of "run it's an Onos", it's "chase down that Onos".
For the Onos' "hit and run" tactics, that can be countered simply by staying in a group. Heavies should be in the back, lights in the front to prevent HAs being eaten.
<!--quoteo(post=1754881:date=Feb 23 2010, 07:20 PM:name=BigText)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigText @ Feb 23 2010, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1754881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->xposed has a point. Good lord, does everyone on this forum vehemently oppose ever playing on the marine team? Devour was an obnoxious time-waster for the marines, as was webs. <b>I wouldn't mind webs returning as long as they were changed to be more balanced. Limiting the number of webs or allowing the marine to still shoot while webbed, or something else like that. Maybe making webs only last a certain amount of time before disappearing.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>To the bolded part of the quote:</b> Webs were never really a "time waster" or a "major imbalance" for marines. They only lasted 2 seconds(the time isn't cumulative if you touch multiple webs at once).
Also webs were really only a problem for lone marines because welders and grenades(and in 3.0, hand grenades) took them out with ease. As of the current version, hand grenades is almost always the first thing researched, giving everyone the ability to take them out. Later in the game, welders are probably going to be handed out, as well as GLs, making webs less effective.
In NS combat, webs are a bit more effective simply because players are less likely to obtain welders and grenade launchers but even then, they weren't overpowered or anything. I'd say they were balanced.
Also while the most interesting ideas are for aliens, marines are usually the ones stacked(everyone wants to play marines).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jimyd's post about the chamber is the equivalent of a gun for the marines that automatically goes through armor, heals the marine when he's damaged, increases his speed, and makes his bullets home in on enemy targets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true, here's Jimyd's suggestion again <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or maybe a new chamber that creates webs around it by linking from itself to close walls with strands of web. And when shot or touched(close proximity) emits spores. Maybe when it is shot and it hits a certain interval for its HP, it emits the umbra as well.
Yes I know they combined spores+umbra, would be kind of imba if it did both everytime. That is if umbra portion of new spores is imba.
Maybe this chamber would also be the new detector as well, kind of like the sensory chamber.
The pure defensive "chamber, opposite of the OC".
Whoever it is built by is up for debate (Gorge or Hivemind or both).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it's a chamber that basically spores and webs anyone close to the chamber, and Umbras whenever it gets damaged by a certain amount (umbra reduces damage by 2/3 damage from bullets, lasts 3 seconds).
Anyway, a chamber like that would not be overpowered at all if:
1. It costs 15 or more resources. It is usually best to not use resource on an OC(10 resource) because you can better spend it on a higher alien life form or an "tech tree chamber" like mcs, dcs, or scs(which help all the aliens).
AND/OR
2. It required mid-late tech(having at least 2 hives in NS1 for example).
Marines will have counters(nades and welders for webs, better armor and weapons upgrades by then) to better gear against that spore/umbra/webbing chamber.
AND
3. It does not have absurdly high HP, just decent(maybe the same amount as an OC).
Really while the idea of a chamber that webs the place around it, then spores every marine in range and umbra every alien in range may seem imbalanced, it really isn't <b>because the developers can balance it(see above 3 examples)</b>. They can balance it through several means(high resource cost, late tech required, low or medium HP, etc). Also again, webs are hardly overpowered. Nades, welders = webs gone. Just have someone with nades and/or welder in a marine group, and webs should be just a small annoyance rather than a big problem.
<b>Now I am not posting this as a response to just that one chamber idea, this applies to any "fancy idea that may seem overpowered <u>but doesn't have to be overpowered</u>"</b>
A spore/umbra/web chamber is hardly too complicated or over the top for balancing.
That's why I agree with Drown: <!--quoteo(post=1754874:date=Feb 23 2010, 05:40 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Feb 23 2010, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1754874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hell, while we're at it, why not make a chamber that auto wins the game for the aliens when built.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hell, while we're at it, why not make an inane nonconstructive response.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
gg
I'd also like to see some limitation on the amount of webs. Clearing them from every hallway isn't going to be interesting. Making the webs require a nearby chamber sounds like a decent starting plan.
I guess the bottom line is that I don't want the webs to become a spammable all-around solution to every entrance to alien territory. Having some as a <b>situational</b> defence sounds awesome, but having them block all the possibilities of fast pushes, flanking and dynamic map control isn't nice at all.
You know that you not only can destroy webs by welding them, but also you are able to free your webbed teammate by welding him?!
By the time webs showed up, there should be plenty of welders in the field.
Add to that grenades, launchers, friendly fire bilebombs..
Anyway, I never liked that multiple webs' effects could be stacked on one person
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess the bottom line is that I don't want the webs to become a spammable all-around solution to every entrance to alien territory. Having some as a <b>situational</b> defence sounds awesome, but having them block all the possibilities of fast pushes, flanking and dynamic map control isn't nice at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give every gorge a personal web-limit, simple.
The question is though, if it's still a fun weapon to use with such a low limit or if it's going to be nerfed a lot in order to increase the limit.
I mean after all the DI-Flamethrower thing sounds already pretty close to Webs-Welder relation in NS1, so it would probably be better to replace webs with some DI using/modifing weapon.
By the time webs showed up, there should be plenty of welders in the field.
Add to that grenades, launchers, friendly fire bilebombs..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're describing NS1 extremely late game. You've got webs and possible counters there alright.
Meanwhile, NS2 midgame is anyone's guess in many ways. Good luck running in with welder 1st (assuming you can afford one in every group) while there's spore and spit around and your teammates aren't your clanmates sitting in the same voice comm.
Nades and flamethrowers are nice counter options, but I don't know how you're going to balance them so that webbing doesn't become a little nuisance that just gets mechanically weeded out with right equipment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give every gorge a personal web-limit, simple.
The question is though, if it's still a fun weapon to use with such a low limit or if it's going to be nerfed a lot in order to increase the limit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even with web limits, a 9 player team can have 3 gorges webbing the main routes. It's probably not the optimal way, but I definitely could see it happening in public games. As you mentioned, a strict web limit isn't that much fun either.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean after all the DI-Flamethrower thing sounds already pretty close to Webs-Welder relation in NS1, so it would probably be better to replace webs with some DI using/modifing weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least I'm hoping the DI isn't a dead stop for the marines. It can be a territorial feature that still allows pushing in, destroying/killing something and then retreating/dying. Webs on the other hand are a dead stop in most cases we've seen so far.
The question is though, if it's still a fun weapon to use with such a low limit or if it's going to be nerfed a lot in order to increase the limit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless things changed, the last time I played NS there was a <b>map</b> wide limit on webs, something like 12 strands or something. So while you could have 20 gorges, web was still quite limited.
There's even a area-wide limit..but as stated serveral times, it is too much, if you wanna keep webs for ns2.
There's even a area-wide limit..but as stated serveral times, it is too much, if you wanna keep webs for ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make webs cost rez?
As well as the area-wide limit.
Of course that resin ramp could be destroyed by the marines using the flamethrower or another kind of weapon. Or, why not, it could be used by the marines or the Siege Canon.
heard it would be volumetric, so advanced physics as a it fills spaces :P
Niiiiice.
Webs should definitely be released with NS2 because it was and still is a strategy mechanisms that both teams have to strategies to get through. Natural selection isn't just an all around run and gun fps, there is meant to be a lot of strategy and thinking to it. Webs is in the category of strategy and should stay with NS because of this hands down.
Lets not forget the key feature that make's NS - real time strategy.
So instant webs and babblers! Hooray!