Replacing Med-Spam
MuYeah
Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
Spinoff idea from "no more Omnipotent Commander" thread by RobB.
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<b>Pros:</b>
<ul><li>Great res dump for when marines have too much income. Provides a needed oomph sometimes to break last-stand holdouts against the aliens.</li><li>Necessary to keep marines alive in the field at the cost of res. Allows alien teams to soak up marine resource surplus' through smart play (not engaging directly but harassing with para/spore/spit etc.)</li><li>Scales well with skill. If done badly has large consequences for the marine team (fall behind in tech race). If done correctly can kill key alien structures or lifeforms. Very good cost/results mechanic which has to be calculated on the go.</li><li>Dropping meds accurately to save as much resources as possible for upgrades requires great micro and prediction.</li><li>Brings marine/commander interaction into the game. The only real other things in NS1 that do this are scan, beacon and catpacks.</li></ul>
<b>Cons:</b>
<ul><li>Learning curve rather high. If you're bad at it you're more likely to get ejected and everyone hate you and lose your car, job and wife. etc.</li><li>"Baby-sitting" not for everyone.</li><li>??? More cons needed, feel free to point some out.</li></ul>
So basically, like most things that the hardcore of NS1 love it's awesome if you're good at it but if you're not then good luck doing anything.
Anyway, a good replacement would have to satisfy all the pro criteria and solve the cons. So my idea is this:
<b>Remove medpacks from the game.</b>
Turn the marine "health" model into mainly armour based. You take all your hits to your armour and when it is depleted then you take say.. 2 spits, 4 ticks of spore, 1 bite/swipe/gore to kill.
I know this is probably heresy to most but if not hit for ~5-10 seconds you'll regen to max health again, so once you're out of armour its down to the lone marine to keep himself alive. More exciting, like when you're on a public game with no commander because everyone ran out of base and you've got no lmg ammo, 14 health and 8 pistol bullets and you're the last one left.
Anyway, where the commander comes into this is with weldbots. The commander can deploy weldbots into the field to build, weld marines and even scout if you want. They can be killed by aliens relatively easily so to be most effective must travel with marines (also means aliens can camp the track from base to where marines are fighting and ambush them).
The commander can deploy multiple weldbots, each costing a low-ish (in NS1 terms 10-15 or so)res cost and each individually controllable. Each weldbot has a tickbox similar to spells in games like Warcraft3 (think bloodlust/dispel/etc) that when ticked will make them weld nearby marines up to full armour automatically. This means during downtime between fights the comm won't need to babysit marines and can just let the weldbot get on with healing them up.
However, during fights leaving the weldbot on auto-mode won't be the most effective way of healing marines up as it would stay on the same marine until their armour is full. Microing the weldbot to different marines to keep them all above a certain level of armour would be the most effective use of welding time.
The fact that multiple can be deployed means if the marines have a big res advantage, a comm less skilled at micro could take more map control and pump out a few more and put them all on automatic weld, similar to res-carpetting in NS1.
The easy-to-kill nature of the weldbot means they can be micro'd by the comm to dodge aliens or be around a corner or whatever if the marine are low on res and are likely to win a fight, but if the aliens do decide to target the weldbots then they will need a constant supply of new ones to the field (similar to the inherent res-cost of keeping marines alive when being harassed by spore), giving aliens the surplus-destroying tactic they need.
OK, questions, more ideas, thoughts, feedback?
<!--sizeo:20--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Medspam<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Pros:</b>
<ul><li>Great res dump for when marines have too much income. Provides a needed oomph sometimes to break last-stand holdouts against the aliens.</li><li>Necessary to keep marines alive in the field at the cost of res. Allows alien teams to soak up marine resource surplus' through smart play (not engaging directly but harassing with para/spore/spit etc.)</li><li>Scales well with skill. If done badly has large consequences for the marine team (fall behind in tech race). If done correctly can kill key alien structures or lifeforms. Very good cost/results mechanic which has to be calculated on the go.</li><li>Dropping meds accurately to save as much resources as possible for upgrades requires great micro and prediction.</li><li>Brings marine/commander interaction into the game. The only real other things in NS1 that do this are scan, beacon and catpacks.</li></ul>
<b>Cons:</b>
<ul><li>Learning curve rather high. If you're bad at it you're more likely to get ejected and everyone hate you and lose your car, job and wife. etc.</li><li>"Baby-sitting" not for everyone.</li><li>??? More cons needed, feel free to point some out.</li></ul>
So basically, like most things that the hardcore of NS1 love it's awesome if you're good at it but if you're not then good luck doing anything.
Anyway, a good replacement would have to satisfy all the pro criteria and solve the cons. So my idea is this:
<b>Remove medpacks from the game.</b>
Turn the marine "health" model into mainly armour based. You take all your hits to your armour and when it is depleted then you take say.. 2 spits, 4 ticks of spore, 1 bite/swipe/gore to kill.
I know this is probably heresy to most but if not hit for ~5-10 seconds you'll regen to max health again, so once you're out of armour its down to the lone marine to keep himself alive. More exciting, like when you're on a public game with no commander because everyone ran out of base and you've got no lmg ammo, 14 health and 8 pistol bullets and you're the last one left.
Anyway, where the commander comes into this is with weldbots. The commander can deploy weldbots into the field to build, weld marines and even scout if you want. They can be killed by aliens relatively easily so to be most effective must travel with marines (also means aliens can camp the track from base to where marines are fighting and ambush them).
The commander can deploy multiple weldbots, each costing a low-ish (in NS1 terms 10-15 or so)res cost and each individually controllable. Each weldbot has a tickbox similar to spells in games like Warcraft3 (think bloodlust/dispel/etc) that when ticked will make them weld nearby marines up to full armour automatically. This means during downtime between fights the comm won't need to babysit marines and can just let the weldbot get on with healing them up.
However, during fights leaving the weldbot on auto-mode won't be the most effective way of healing marines up as it would stay on the same marine until their armour is full. Microing the weldbot to different marines to keep them all above a certain level of armour would be the most effective use of welding time.
The fact that multiple can be deployed means if the marines have a big res advantage, a comm less skilled at micro could take more map control and pump out a few more and put them all on automatic weld, similar to res-carpetting in NS1.
The easy-to-kill nature of the weldbot means they can be micro'd by the comm to dodge aliens or be around a corner or whatever if the marine are low on res and are likely to win a fight, but if the aliens do decide to target the weldbots then they will need a constant supply of new ones to the field (similar to the inherent res-cost of keeping marines alive when being harassed by spore), giving aliens the surplus-destroying tactic they need.
OK, questions, more ideas, thoughts, feedback?
Comments
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I think keeping marines above a certain level of armor is a bit uninuitive as it requires you to know how much armor a marine needs at a certain point of game (knowing the armor levels and damage sources and ect). It's a good feature, but not particularly accessible for newbies, so I wouldn't use it as a basis of the micro.
How about making the welding speed dependand on the amount of armor the marine already has? The more damaged the armor, the quicker the welding. At that point there's a clear reason to micro weldbots to the most damaged target, but it doesn't require any mathematical knowledge of the amount of bites and such.
Cutting off weldbot reinforcements might be pretty interesting aliens vs comm mind game if it's done right.
I don't know if the marines are still a bit dependant on the commander and his weldbots, which is one of the main issues with medpacks. It's still a step away from the complete reliance on comm micro that NS had.
Maybe something like what left 4 dead did where the player is vulnerable while healing himself. That way the other teammates would have to cover him and it would add a little bit more teamwork.
I do like the idea of armour vs. health but I think it can be implemented alot more efficiently. Also I really don't like the idea of marines spontaneously generating health - when a skulk bites your leg off, you don't grow it back.
I think the solution is not to nerf or replace the medpack but instead to BUFF it! By increasing the cost and effectiveness of each medpack, you force the commander to stop spamming it. When they each cost say 6 res, spamming 5 packs in a quick fight would jump from a cost of 10 in NS1 (recoverable if he died anyway) to a cost of 30 in NS2 (alot more devastating to the speed of your tech's evolution).
Instead of dropping packs for the bunnyhopping marine to wander into, the commander would be forced to consider the consequences of dropping each pack. In this way it requires more micro in the form of timing from the commander, and encourages the marine and commander to communicate so that he knows when the marine needs it most and doesn't waste 6 res on a marine who is at 80% health.
It would also have a great balancing effect for the alien team, as they would have a second chance to take out the marine who killed them with medium health still left - the commander would be much more reluctant to spend 6 res to fully heal a marine who still has 70% health, whereas in NS1 he would be healed to full without thinking. That same marine could then be taken out later on with not much effort.
I agree that the point of medspam was to boost during a firefight, which a weldbot cannot do. First, it's not a burst of HP (unless this sucker's a welding master) and secondly it'll probably go down in the mess of damage flying everywhere. Which means it has to stay in the backline to stay safe, making it a fallback healer, not a burst healer.
However, this may be a good thing. It could act as an intermediary instead of needing an expensive armory to be dropped just deploy a few weldbots to the field to heal up the squad after an engagement. Being vulnerable (and have to travel the map), it might be worth it for the Aliens to harass by just taking down the bots, and when they're left with not bots rush and kill the Marines.
Mu's weldbot idea is not bad. The bad side of medpacking is that its mandatory and extra learning curve for commanders which is not good for NS, but I always liked how fast-paced game NS1 was, and commander had to be able to make (literally) flash decisions. Taking that element off is not what NS1 is about imo.
I think having auto-medpacks toggle'able by commander would be a good solution, they would drop like in combat. New commanders could just use it (it could be one by default), and experienced commanders could use it when they have something else to do.
I want them to "materalize" on the ground, as if in you watch the nanites process the medpack into a usuable unit. This process could take between 0-2 seconds (whatever is balanced).
This would make it so the Medpack isn't a "Invurnable Life Shield" but more of a pre-emptive or after the effect healing tool.
They could also change it so it heals 50 HP over the course of 3 seconds, and not instantly heals 50 HP on pickup; this would be better as well.
Hopefully most of you read this very carefully and will realize, this is the better way to go, and would fix pretty much every issue and problem from the NS1 Medpack's design.
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Hopefully you'll read MuYeah's post most carefully and consider what is essential in the NS1 medpack desing and why simply reducing the medspam into a nearly noncombat healing isn't going to be the best solution.
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This way, marines are not invincible but an important... "asset" can be kept alive.
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Are we talking about fixing NS1 or changing it to work with NS2?
Because with the unified resource model and knowing that the Marines will be buying their own equipment... I think the Commander is not going to be having that much res anymore, and will more be about which Upgrades to get and which Tech Path to take. And if the Commander makes the wrong choice, they are likely to lose.
Medpacks will be for that important situation like sieging a Hive with a M.A.S.C. or for holding onto that Tech Point deep into Kharaa territory so they do not get the third Hive.
THIS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE because of the Power Grid establishing a frontline, which is where an Armory will be placed for general needs for heals and ammo restoration.
Currently in NS1, I feel like I am an infinite Pinata when it comes to Medpacks and Ammopacks.
No offense to MuYeah, but as soon as I saw REGEN MECHANIC, instant no. I'm pretty sure Medpacks are staying in some form. And regen... it belongs in Call of Deathmatch.
Having only an armor bar would be too confusing to the casual player, but it could work. Just no to the regen mechanic. Basically in that situation the Welder becomes you DoTs type of Medpack, HoTs (Heal over Time), but this has balancing issues. It makes the Welder very powerful multi-purpose tool (vent+door welding + structure repairing on top of Weldbot). So it would have to have a pretty steep cost, like the equivalent of a NS1 package of HMG + Welder + JP/HA type of cost. Since you would really only need 1 in a Squad and just pass it around to heal the Welder guy.
Yeah.
1. Do not remove micro from the commander, he needs something to do.
2. In urgent situation marines should be savable for a certain amount of money.
3. Still kaharaa should have a chance to break any support from the commander.
4. Previous attacks on a marine should not easily be completly recoverable.
Current medpack implementation analysis:
1. Micro: Check!
2. Marine savable: Check!
3. Kaharaa have a chance: Depends on commander, sometimes they do, sometimes impossible.
4. Easy recover: Check, current armor implementation sufficient.
Way to improve number 3:
First possibility
Let Kaharaa use medpacks in someway. Commander needs to pay more attention to where and how to drop them and if he misses the Kaharaas winning chance increases.
Possible usages for Kaharaa:
1. Heal the liveform.
2. Increase attacking speed.
3. Increase movementspeed.
4. Any possible combination.
5. Your idea!
Second possibility:
Marines get sick of medpacks after a certain amount.
Possible implementations:
1. Marine slowly loses eyesight after X medpacks in X seconds. (Only limited time obviously)
2. Marine's movmentspeed decreases.
3. Marine's audio gets number.
4. Any possible combination.
5. Your idea!
Obviously this idea could be abused by commanders, so rescost to effect would need to be carefully balanced.
Actually I don't know if the medpack behaviour in NS1 changed significantly since I last played. But maybe this something to consider nevertheless.
Kickchon I also like your idea about overdoses. Spamming 3 should bring a marine quickly back to 100%, but there should be a negative side effect.
I'd like to see both of these ideas implemented side-by-side, but alas I fear the devs have a game to make, and medspam has been debated since the early days so this thread probably won't go anywhere.
This thread is exactly capable of going somewhere because the starting poster understands why the medspam is in NS as it is, but doesn't blindly stick to it. Most threads that have tried discussing medspam completely ignore its positive sides and try to turn NS commanding into something which is completely out of its reach.
Much like forum threads that organise game boycotts, rallying players who already paid for their copies online.
Note: This isn't NS1.
Note: This isn't NS1.
Same problem, but such a biggie it probably had to be mentioned twice.
I really like the idea of weldbot welding more at lower armour levels that Bacillus suggested. If at critically low levels perhaps even fast enough to survive a final bite/swipe/gore almost instantaneously. This would give it the instant heal saving effect if timed right.
So mu, in my opinion weldbots are generally not a bad idea, but medspaming is a comm's micro element that I wouldn't want to see go off.
But there's one another disadvantage about weldbots or similar. You cannot use solo marines that efficently (think about jetpacks). Also I don't see how this is going to lessen the micro, because marines are on the move most of the time and the AI would have to be pretty damn smart or comm would have to micro them all the time.
Just toggleable "not-instant" auto-meds would be a good tradeoff. New commanders dont have to worry about that micro and more experienced can micro when they want.
Primary heals self.
Secondary heals teammate.
Each marine spawns with a single medpack. Using it triggers health regeneration. It can heal almost 100 hit points, but starts out very slowly, you need at least a couple of seconds to see any benefit (it accelerates). Once used, the medpack is gone, but can be replaced for free at base.
This way, marines have a way of healing, but still have to be careful, and medpack is not a get out of jail card. It's too slow be of <b>tactical</b> significance.
And best of all, for the sake of balance it could be mirrored to the Glowies on Kharaa side as well.
But then again I can't speak for how it would affect the commander's role. Could make things more boring than before.
But I think if UWE wanted to make a redesign on resupplies that's not instant-health medpacks, this could be worth a shot.