How could you test any gameplay if the game crashes every 5 minutes, like a rushed alpha probably will? Seriously, we're beating a dead horse into hamburger here.
im still surprised that most of you think the alpha will be multilayer, i assume that you would be able to load it up and run around a map.. and they would get a report to see that everything is running fine on different hardware combinations.
<!--quoteo(post=1748453:date=Jan 21 2010, 08:20 PM:name=whocareswc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whocareswc @ Jan 21 2010, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im still surprised that most of you think the alpha will be multilayer, i assume that you would be able to load it up and run around a map.. and they would get a report to see that everything is running fine on different hardware combinations.
imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been said in the past that a workable server version is planned with the alpha, so that allows multiplayer.
<!--quoteo(post=1748453:date=Jan 21 2010, 03:20 PM:name=whocareswc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whocareswc @ Jan 21 2010, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im still surprised that most of you think the alpha will be multilayer, i assume that you would be able to load it up and run around a map.. and they would get a report to see that everything is running fine on different hardware combinations.
imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be pre-alpha. The main purpose of the game is the multiplayer aspect. An alpha is a game that misses some features, but not the main feature ! hehe
Basically alpha means 1st. It means the 1st playable version of the game. This version is usually never shown to the public because it is very buggy. They offered it to the hardcore NS fans who bought the SE, because they figured they would be willing to deal with the issues releasing an alpha to the public causes.
Beta means 2nd, as in the 2nd batch of the game, after the developers have ironed out most of the alpha problems, this is when the game is in a relatively stable state, and is ready for some more rigorous testing.
<!--quoteo(post=1748437:date=Jan 21 2010, 06:17 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 21 2010, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right - an Alpha is a game with all the gameplay elements functional, but the rest of the game is left out or incomplete in order to get the game playable and testable as quickly as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i.e a complete game?
There is no point testing a game that is incomplete because when you add in the rest of the features it will change the nature of the game. A game where you can run and shoot all the guns and pick all the classes and see accurate representations of the final environment and have an example of the final hud setup and have all the buildings and all the interface modes and an example of every type of map and solid networking <i>is a complete game.</i>
If all you have left to do is tweak the balance it that's not alpha, that's shipping the game for mastering in a lot of companies. <!--quoteo(post=1748460:date=Jan 21 2010, 09:16 PM:name=Pipi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pipi @ Jan 21 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be pre-alpha. The main purpose of the game is the multiplayer aspect. An alpha is a game that misses some features, but not the main feature ! hehe
Need something to test out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A game being multiplayer does not mean the major aspect of the game is the multiplayer capability.
Building the rendering system and the movement system and the shooting system and the GUI system and the sound and the editor and the mechanics and the interactions of all of the above and making sure the whole thing doesn't crash is far more complicated than plugging a few dozen entities into remote control by other players.
A game runs mostly on the client, all games are single player for the most part, some singleplayer games just have a few enemies which are controlled by other players, and we call them multiplayer as if there was much difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1748569:date=Jan 22 2010, 08:57 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 22 2010, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no point testing a game that is incomplete<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No offense, but have you ever programmed before? Or really, built anything complicated? When you do something like that, you want to test your basics before you move on to later parts that depend on them. For instance, who cares what build dependencies are for the marine base if you can't place buildings in commander mode yet.
Not that I'm pro "OMG release everything now!", as I know any screenshot released to the public that's not perfect will be picked apart by people in the community, and may cause lowered sales. Some people, no matter if you tell them it's a pre-alpha, alpha, beta, release candidate, don't understand what "not done" means.
<!--quoteo(post=1748569:date=Jan 22 2010, 09:57 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 22 2010, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A game being multiplayer does not mean the major aspect of the game is the multiplayer capability.
Building the rendering system and the movement system and the shooting system and the GUI system and the sound and the editor and the mechanics and the interactions of all of the above and making sure the whole thing doesn't crash is far more complicated than plugging a few dozen entities into remote control by other players.
A game runs mostly on the client, all games are single player for the most part, some singleplayer games just have a few enemies which are controlled by other players, and we call them multiplayer as if there was much difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I certainly know that and you are mentioning something that happens before alpha. An alpha release is a game released in the purpose of testing the game in all its form with the basic elements yes, but mainly to test the gameplay.
Gameplay is the only thing that makes a good or very bad game, no matter the graphics, speed, stability, etc. If the interaction of multiple players is not worked on enough to get balanced, fun, logical and proper the game will simply fail.
Sure, they will want us to test the game out as well for different issues, considering that not everyone uses the same hardwares.
<!--quoteo(post=1748469:date=Jan 22 2010, 12:19 AM:name=Tephra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tephra @ Jan 22 2010, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically alpha means 1st. It means the 1st playable version of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "1st Playable" is a development milestone in and of itself, it isn't the same thing as Alpha. It's like a "proof of concept" where the bare minimum of gameplay is implemented in a testing-type environment to make sure its fun to play/possible to implement.
<!--quoteo(post=1748569:date=Jan 22 2010, 02:57 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 22 2010, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i.e a complete game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alphas mean different things to different people. One typical description of an alpha is "code complete" or "feature complete". Of course there is tons of polishing and bugfixing to still do, but the coding time is pretty much taken up with doing these things now, rather than making the exo's lockdown work or writing the lerk's perch code. And it doesn't mean that any of the art is actually in the game yet; all of the aliens might look like static, untextured models, or you might see something like the rabbot, for those of you that have checked out the overgrowth pre-alpha.
We have not heard any mention of them having the basic code for the game completed yet. Quite the opposite actually, with the recent twitter post of the physics updates Max added.
While it would be nice to know exactly where they stand in terms of the game's code, that's not something they would want/need to report to a bunch of fans in the forums.
<!--quoteo(post=1748618:date=Jan 22 2010, 07:31 PM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Jan 22 2010, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And it doesn't mean that any of the art is actually in the game yet; all of the aliens might look like static, untextured models[...] We have not heard any mention of them having the basic code for the game completed yet. Quite the opposite actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but on the other hand the in-game screenshots that were released recently didn't look like static, untextured models. They looked like several human and alien players playing a multiplayer match against each other. The art looked pretty complete in those screenshots.
This one doesn't <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/images/6/6f/SkulkinVent.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/imag...SkulkinVent.jpg</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1748645:date=Jan 22 2010, 09:22 PM:name=WarLover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WarLover @ Jan 22 2010, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It looks pretty set up to me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, me too, but when the screenshots were released people were swearing up and down that they were showing "gameplay" and relentlessly flaming anyone who suggested otherwise. I'm pretty sure, although I can't find the post, that someone from UWE also said it was gameplay.
Even if they have the models in those screenshots it doesn't mean they had all their animations done at the time those shots were made. I realize that for the skulks, we'd already seen the reveal trailer, but that doesn't mean the lerk or the marines had animations yet.
Not saying it happened one way or the other, just that we don't know how complete it is/was for sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1748587:date=Jan 22 2010, 04:59 PM:name=barbarossa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (barbarossa @ Jan 22 2010, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No offense, but have you ever programmed before? Or really, built anything complicated? When you do something like that, you want to test your basics before you move on to later parts that depend on them. For instance, who cares what build dependencies are for the marine base if you can't place buildings in commander mode yet.
Not that I'm pro "OMG release everything now!", as I know any screenshot released to the public that's not perfect will be picked apart by people in the community, and may cause lowered sales. Some people, no matter if you tell them it's a pre-alpha, alpha, beta, release candidate, don't understand what "not done" means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Test as in public test, not open the game to see if it does what you told it to. You don't need a public release to see if you can place buildings because you can test that yourself, you only need a public release to test hardware compatibility (which is usually done through a special company that runs it on a load of different configurations as far as I know) and for balance testing, i.e anything that specifically requires you to have a large number of people or components interacting with one another, and balance testing more or less requires that all the features you want in the game are in in order to get an accurate balance to test.
I've done mapping before and I didn't call in someone to test that the map worked every time I compiled a new version, I built it up to a final version myself and then brought someone in to check the things you do need multiple people for like to see if the res file downloads all the required materials and to see if they could navigate around the level OK and to see if it performed adequately.
There is very little you can't test with a team of four or five people who all know exactly what they're talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1748900:date=Jan 24 2010, 03:31 PM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ Jan 24 2010, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So when will ns2 come out valve-time XD?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tonight at 12:00.
To hell with updates on the Alpha, I just want a heads up for Twitter updates. Even those get me all riled up and moist; I check this website just as often as I check my facebook. (Way too often.)
<!--quoteo(post=1749046:date=Jan 25 2010, 09:28 AM:name=DeltaSnipe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DeltaSnipe @ Jan 25 2010, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To hell with updates on the Alpha, I just want a heads up for Twitter updates. Even those get me all riled up and moist; I check this website just as often as I check my facebook. (Way too often.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ever heard of RSS?..
its so hot and boring on the weekends in australia<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats dependant on what state/territory you live in. after 2 years in darwin, nowhere else feels hot to me
I'm such a sucker for these threads, I just had to register and post :P
Being part of a hobbyist dev team myself (a lot less pro than the UW guys, of course, but still a dev team), I have learned some very valuable lessons. One is - early alphas will make your rep go down. That's just how community works. It's all 'we don't care if it's broken' at first and then ends with 'hey, it's more crappy than I thought it would be!'. Even though everyone says they 'just want the alpha', they really want a beta (which would be an almost fully playable game, or at least something without glitches).
You guys have no idea what kind of bugs and workarounds the guys from Unknown Worlds probably have and have to use to get those presentations ready :D It's probably damn near impossible to get it to a working installer (pure guesswork here, though) :P
Let me share a story. Once, some fans wanted my team to 'release the alpha already!' (well, they still do XD). At the time, our storage was poorly secured, some kid got into it and leaked the game. What was the response? "Oh man, this is crappy. I expected way better!". Yes, even though the copy they played was stolen and incomplete, they still complained that it was bad. I'm pretty sure they're just afraid the same thing would hapen here. Bad rep means less fans. Less fans means less spreading the word. Less of that means less sales and I don't need to go on.
With that, to conclude, I don't think we'll be getting a rushed alpha anytime soon unless it's actually close to being done ;)
Ofc I might be wrong, being so inexperienced and stuff, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Someone even mentioned this somewhere in this very thread. Please don't flame me ^^'
No you're right, and every development company in existence would probably agree with you because of their standard practises and non disclosure agreements and things that are all basically designed to stop any information about a work in progress game getting out, anything that does needs to be very heavily polished and prestented in a fashion which hides any possible bugs.
Fans are unpleasant creatures, they exist to give you money but good god you don't want to listen to any of them unless you're insane or suicidal.
Too late for excuses now. They advertised special editions with "First access to alpha, beta and tools". They'd better not back up on that now because that would make them poor liars.
They will give us the alpha sooner or later. It's just that us telling them to hurry up won't help the case - they won't release it until they're 100% certain that it will run mostly bug-free on most computers and that they'll actually have something to show.
Comments
imo
imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been said in the past that a workable server version is planned with the alpha, so that allows multiplayer.
imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be pre-alpha. The main purpose of the game is the multiplayer aspect. An alpha is a game that misses some features, but not the main feature ! hehe
Need something to test out.
Beta means 2nd, as in the 2nd batch of the game, after the developers have ironed out most of the alpha problems, this is when the game is in a relatively stable state, and is ready for some more rigorous testing.
i.e a complete game?
There is no point testing a game that is incomplete because when you add in the rest of the features it will change the nature of the game. A game where you can run and shoot all the guns and pick all the classes and see accurate representations of the final environment and have an example of the final hud setup and have all the buildings and all the interface modes and an example of every type of map and solid networking <i>is a complete game.</i>
If all you have left to do is tweak the balance it that's not alpha, that's shipping the game for mastering in a lot of companies.
<!--quoteo(post=1748460:date=Jan 21 2010, 09:16 PM:name=Pipi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pipi @ Jan 21 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would be pre-alpha. The main purpose of the game is the multiplayer aspect. An alpha is a game that misses some features, but not the main feature ! hehe
Need something to test out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A game being multiplayer does not mean the major aspect of the game is the multiplayer capability.
Building the rendering system and the movement system and the shooting system and the GUI system and the sound and the editor and the mechanics and the interactions of all of the above and making sure the whole thing doesn't crash is far more complicated than plugging a few dozen entities into remote control by other players.
A game runs mostly on the client, all games are single player for the most part, some singleplayer games just have a few enemies which are controlled by other players, and we call them multiplayer as if there was much difference.
No offense, but have you ever programmed before? Or really, built anything complicated? When you do something like that, you want to test your basics before you move on to later parts that depend on them. For instance, who cares what build dependencies are for the marine base if you can't place buildings in commander mode yet.
Not that I'm pro "OMG release everything now!", as I know any screenshot released to the public that's not perfect will be picked apart by people in the community, and may cause lowered sales. Some people, no matter if you tell them it's a pre-alpha, alpha, beta, release candidate, don't understand what "not done" means.
Building the rendering system and the movement system and the shooting system and the GUI system and the sound and the editor and the mechanics and the interactions of all of the above and making sure the whole thing doesn't crash is far more complicated than plugging a few dozen entities into remote control by other players.
A game runs mostly on the client, all games are single player for the most part, some singleplayer games just have a few enemies which are controlled by other players, and we call them multiplayer as if there was much difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I certainly know that and you are mentioning something that happens before alpha. An alpha release is a game released in the purpose of testing the game in all its form with the basic elements yes, but mainly to test the gameplay.
Gameplay is the only thing that makes a good or very bad game, no matter the graphics, speed, stability, etc. If the interaction of multiple players is not worked on enough to get balanced, fun, logical and proper the game will simply fail.
Sure, they will want us to test the game out as well for different issues, considering that not everyone uses the same hardwares.
"1st Playable" is a development milestone in and of itself, it isn't the same thing as Alpha. It's like a "proof of concept" where the bare minimum of gameplay is implemented in a testing-type environment to make sure its fun to play/possible to implement.
<!--quoteo(post=1748569:date=Jan 22 2010, 02:57 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 22 2010, 02:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i.e a complete game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<Insert gigantic Captain Picard facepalm image macro here>
We have not heard any mention of them having the basic code for the game completed yet. Quite the opposite actually, with the recent twitter post of the physics updates Max added.
While it would be nice to know exactly where they stand in terms of the game's code, that's not something they would want/need to report to a bunch of fans in the forums.
We have not heard any mention of them having the basic code for the game completed yet. Quite the opposite actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but on the other hand the in-game screenshots that were released recently didn't look like static, untextured models. They looked like several human and alien players playing a multiplayer match against each other. The art looked pretty complete in those screenshots.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/images/6/6f/SkulkinVent.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/imag...SkulkinVent.jpg</a>
And
<a href="http://ns2.squarespace.com/storage/skulks.jpg" target="_blank">http://ns2.squarespace.com/storage/skulks.jpg</a>
It looks pretty set up to me
Well, me too, but when the screenshots were released people were swearing up and down that they were showing "gameplay" and relentlessly flaming anyone who suggested otherwise. I'm pretty sure, although I can't find the post, that someone from UWE also said it was gameplay.
Not saying it happened one way or the other, just that we don't know how complete it is/was for sure.
Not that I'm pro "OMG release everything now!", as I know any screenshot released to the public that's not perfect will be picked apart by people in the community, and may cause lowered sales. Some people, no matter if you tell them it's a pre-alpha, alpha, beta, release candidate, don't understand what "not done" means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Test as in public test, not open the game to see if it does what you told it to. You don't need a public release to see if you can place buildings because you can test that yourself, you only need a public release to test hardware compatibility (which is usually done through a special company that runs it on a load of different configurations as far as I know) and for balance testing, i.e anything that specifically requires you to have a large number of people or components interacting with one another, and balance testing more or less requires that all the features you want in the game are in in order to get an accurate balance to test.
I've done mapping before and I didn't call in someone to test that the map worked every time I compiled a new version, I built it up to a final version myself and then brought someone in to check the things you do need multiple people for like to see if the res file downloads all the required materials and to see if they could navigate around the level OK and to see if it performed adequately.
There is very little you can't test with a team of four or five people who all know exactly what they're talking about.
Tonight at 12:00.
"There's doing it right, and there is doing it right now."
We all know which we would prefer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i want the "right now" option :)
its so hot and boring on the weekends in australia
There is no such valve time, unless you mean tonight as in january, cause then you say this will be released in may Xd.
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time</a>
Ever heard of RSS?..
its so hot and boring on the weekends in australia<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats dependant on what state/territory you live in. after 2 years in darwin, nowhere else feels hot to me
Being part of a hobbyist dev team myself (a lot less pro than the UW guys, of course, but still a dev team), I have learned some very valuable lessons. One is - early alphas will make your rep go down. That's just how community works. It's all 'we don't care if it's broken' at first and then ends with 'hey, it's more crappy than I thought it would be!'. Even though everyone says they 'just want the alpha', they really want a beta (which would be an almost fully playable game, or at least something without glitches).
You guys have no idea what kind of bugs and workarounds the guys from Unknown Worlds probably have and have to use to get those presentations ready :D It's probably damn near impossible to get it to a working installer (pure guesswork here, though) :P
Let me share a story. Once, some fans wanted my team to 'release the alpha already!' (well, they still do XD). At the time, our storage was poorly secured, some kid got into it and leaked the game. What was the response? "Oh man, this is crappy. I expected way better!". Yes, even though the copy they played was stolen and incomplete, they still complained that it was bad.
I'm pretty sure they're just afraid the same thing would hapen here. Bad rep means less fans. Less fans means less spreading the word. Less of that means less sales and I don't need to go on.
With that, to conclude, I don't think we'll be getting a rushed alpha anytime soon unless it's actually close to being done ;)
Ofc I might be wrong, being so inexperienced and stuff, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Someone even mentioned this somewhere in this very thread. Please don't flame me ^^'
Also, it's my first post here!
Fans are unpleasant creatures, they exist to give you money but good god you don't want to listen to any of them unless you're insane or suicidal.