Alternate map layouts
monopolowa
Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Members
Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Members
<div class="IPBDescription">post your own!</div>I like the suggested map layout schematics UWE included in the mapping guidelines PDF, but I think there are other map layouts that could work with the gameplay NS2 will have to offer. Hopefully people will come up with a few designs of their own and post them here for critique/discussion.
To start things off, I present the triple-node Ring map layout - the highest concentration of res nodes will be in the central area of the map, with all the tech points forming a ring around the outside. The asymmetrical layout leaves room for randomized starting locations (if that is eventually implemented) and gives each team the option of using a rush strategy or expanding for map control. Could possibly include a tram system connecting each tech point...
<img src="http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1822/maplayout.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I've included the .psd file in case anyone is interested in making their own
<a href="http://www.filedropper.com/maplayout" target="_blank">http://www.filedropper.com/maplayout</a>
To start things off, I present the triple-node Ring map layout - the highest concentration of res nodes will be in the central area of the map, with all the tech points forming a ring around the outside. The asymmetrical layout leaves room for randomized starting locations (if that is eventually implemented) and gives each team the option of using a rush strategy or expanding for map control. Could possibly include a tram system connecting each tech point...
<img src="http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1822/maplayout.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I've included the .psd file in case anyone is interested in making their own
<a href="http://www.filedropper.com/maplayout" target="_blank">http://www.filedropper.com/maplayout</a>
Comments
I'll redraw my original layout and share it here since I lost all my files and I might not work on the same level (that is if I start making a map again lol)
You're absolutely right about the center nodes, if one team holds all 3 nodes they are 1 step away from any tech point. Of course the scale here is entirely up to the mapper...
There were extra paths (secondary or even tertiary routes) but I didn't bother looking at my drawing really..
<img src="http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/7701/layout1ph.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
[attachment=35914:6x8_double_trouble.jpg]
[Edit: Finally remembered to do this, posted at the current end of the thread]
[attachment=35914:6x8_double_trouble.jpg]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vent into the marine spawn might be an issue.
Yes, or the old ns_caged.
But all these vents were "fixed" so they don't lead into ms anymore.
Epic carapace-rush with dc in caged ms vent comes to my mind :D
<!--quoteo(post=1742858:date=Dec 7 2009, 11:24 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Dec 7 2009, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1742858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Avoid Level-Over-Level</b>
Commander Mode is the ability for Commander players to play the game from a top-down view. This is handled automatically by the game but does place special limitations on level designers: maps can't have “level over level†geometry. If one room is built on top of another, the commander can't give orders in or see into the lower room. Because of this problem, overlapping hallways and areas that cross over other areas should generally be avoided. Girders, catwalks, balconies, pipes, and other smaller geometry can overlap as long as they don't really block commander access to the area below them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've included the .psd file in case anyone is interested in making their own
<a href="http://www.filedropper.com/maplayout" target="_blank">http://www.filedropper.com/maplayout</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You have created a 'Tanith'. Your room with the res node and tech point, with another 'safe' tech point on the way to it, is effectively a Cargo. The map will be decided by who owns that location. Overall, the action is skewed towards one side leaving the East side pretty pointless.
<!--quoteo(post=1748357:date=Jan 21 2010, 07:20 AM:name=Xuaxinodal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xuaxinodal @ Jan 21 2010, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is a layout I was playing with. The name comes from there being 2 tech points and 2 resource points at the center. Regarding the paths, the main paths limit the larger classes (think Onos) while the secondary routes and vents allow smaller classes to move around a bit easier.
[attachment=35914:6x8_double_trouble.jpg]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Apart from being a little too symmetrical, and the Vent into MS, this is a solid layout. It's a good starting point, maybe reworking the MS could give it a bit more character.
I'd be inclined to look at some of the 1v1 maps from Dawn of War 2 for some layout inspiration. If you consider the VP and Power Node locations as the Tech Nodes from NS2 and the Requisition points as Resource Nodes, you could probably get some nice ideas. E.g. there are a couple of maps in DoW2 where the main principle is that the teams start reasonably close together. There is a single high-value location directly in-between and very close to the starting locations (one that will change hands often), then there are a couple of 'safe' high-value locations close to the base but slightly further away from the enemy (to give steady income but also allow for aggressive harassment that can be highly disruptive). Everything else is more-or-less placed along the mid-way line, always equidistant from both players to maximise conflict and turnover.
<div align='center'><img src="http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-89322-1247502933.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></div>
In general, though, the most popular maps put about 40-80% of the game resources spread along the mirror line, equidistant from both players. This rewards attacking play because it means a team can never just sit back in a corner and turtle because they would only ever be able to defend half of the maps' resources. PGs in NS change things a little, but the principle is still sound. Even as little as 40% of res nodes along the mirror line means each player can happily have 30% of the map's resources 'secure', but the dominant team can keep the other team down and increase their share to more than double the other side's. In practise it is very difficult to be the dominant team unless there is a clear skill difference, because each team has equal access to the rest of the resources on the map.
So the rough rule of thumb for following this principle in NS2 would be:
Each team has 2 'safe' res nodes and 2 'safe' tech nodes (including the Marine start). The remaining 4 res nodes and 2 tech nodes are placed along the mirror-line. If you look at monopolowa's layout, you'll see it largely fits this principle. Although for his layout I would probably want to distribute the tech/res nodes more evenly along the mirror line (probably moving the left tech node into the centre and adding a res node there, then having res nodes either side of the central tech point. So along the mirror-line it goes:
2R - R - T - R - T
Or an alternative would be:
T - R - 2R - T - R
R = res node, T = tech point (and referring back to the layout the stuff towards the left is further from both starting locations)
You would control the travel times to each location along the mirror-line to balance them. For instance, you could put a Tech node and a double res close to eachother if they were really close and equidistant from both starting locations, because they would be fought over fiercely throughout the game seeing how quick reinforcements could reach there. Unless Aliens get some sort of teleportation equivalent to the PG, I would tend to avoid putting Tech points or Triple Res Nodes at great distance from the starting locations, because once the Marines get a foothold, it takes a long time for the Aliens to reinforce that area. Double res nodes at great distance from both starting locations are fine as long as you can't cap a double res node and walk from there to another point easily, they should be in isolation from other resources so they represent a bigger investment (takes longer to travel to and capture it early on, direct reinforcement takes longer, so the higher reward carries risk).
I think not.
Yeah, I don't see it. you COULD make the map similar I suppose, but the left-most tech point really isn't as valuable as you say Cargo is. Each side has one easy tech point and one more difficult point; they can both achieve maxed tech trees without confrontation if they wanted
The East side point gives each team a direct shot at the initial location for the other team, not something they can afford to ignore. If the Marines focus too much on expansion at the start they leave themselves open for a rush.
I'd say the triple res in the center is the most important area to hold, because (if you hold all 3) it gives you a direct shot at ANY tech point you want, and a big advantage in res to boot.
BTW, I'm thinking the paths from triple to the tech points without res nodes would be secondary routes. I left it ambiguous here on purpose.
The East side point gives each team a direct shot at the initial location for the other team, not something they can afford to ignore. If the Marines focus too much on expansion at the start they leave themselves open for a rush.
I'd say the triple res in the center is the most important area to hold, because (if you hold all 3) it gives you a direct shot at ANY tech point you want, and a big advantage in res to boot.
BTW, I'm thinking the paths from triple to the tech points without res nodes would be secondary routes. I left it ambiguous here on purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you hold the Tech/Res point you can:
- Protect your safe Tech point
- Quickly reach the triple Res
- Quickly assault the other team's 'safe' Tech point
I'd say that's a pretty powerful location. Plus to hold the triple res area you have to protect against 4 potentially hostile routes into the area (and also make sure you don't get flanked through the other 2 'safe' entrances), and mobilise to 3 seperate rooms. To hold the Tech/Res point you only need to hold 2 potentially hostile entrances into a single room, with 1 potential flanking entrance to consider.
---
Also for the triple Res to be in any way balanced you'd have to make sure you couldn't Siege-camp all three nodes from any location. Something to consider.
Furthermore I've noticed that the entrances into the middle area aren't equal for both teams. It's easier for the southernmost team to hold triple Res against the north because the north has two direct routes converging on 1 room, whereas the south can attack from equivalently positioned Tech points through to 2 separate corners of the triangle, giving them more options and making it harder to shut them out of the goldmine at the centre of the map.
From what I understand, the siege cannon is now LOS, so it should be easy enough to avoid siege camping. I also don't think the entrances NEED to be equal for both teams; Kharaa have always had the early mobility advantage, and the TSA have always been able to highly concentrate their collective firepower. If it was reversed the Kharaa would have a severe disadvantage as the marines would have an easy chokepoint.
I'd also like to mention that there are a whole lot of other things that will change the map's balance besides having an asymmetrical layout. Lighting, changes in elevation, distances between tech points and choke points will all make bigger differences than the exceptions you've pointed out.
P.S. I like Tanith.
That's not how ns_tanith plays. The important part of tanith is storage entrance. If aliens control it, they have access to the west side of the map, denying marines their easiest res nodes. If aliens start in Waste hive they have a clear advantage there, because it's so hard for marines to control the east side of the map.
Anyway, I do see a problem with monopolowa's map. The south team has 5 resource nodes within 2 "jumps," the north team has only 4. I think this holds true even if starts are randomized (something which I doubt will happen), might be wrong tho. If the teams are east west then east has access to 7 and west 5, which is even worse. Asymmetrical maps can be balanced, if, for example, you make the "jumps" longer for south and east so it's harder for them to get to the center. But it would be a challenge.
I have a general question though. I thought, based on the map guidelines, that there will be two start rooms and 2-4 max tech points. The tech points are different in that they're, um, species-neutral. Everyone seems to be creating maps with only tech points and no starts. Either I'm wrong or all these layouts need some revision.
My understanding was that there's no difference between a tech point with a res node and a start room, except that a team starts there. If they lose that room but still hold another tech point, the game's not over yet, and the opposing team can build in your team's start room
I think if I try making this map layout I'll add a gradual left-right incline, so that the leftmost tech point is the lowest area on the map. Kind of like the elevation changes you see in Eclipse from MS down toward any of the hives.
<img src="http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9152/techpointstruggle.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5149/returnofthedoubleres.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1730/asymmetry.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(The grey lines are routes that I'm not sure about / conflict with the guidelines).
(The double res in the middle is meant to be in one room but the routes in are supposed to show how the power grid would work but not necessarily the entrances).
Non-symmetrical. An aimed power struggle. There's a shorter route with more RT's on the right, designed to be the level choke point. The left side allows you to dominate the resource towers there much more easily while giving you a chance to snag the double area.
Probably a bad direction to go for, first non-symmetrical on here it seems too.
Edit: The bottom right area needs to be pulled down really, I see that instantly.
I like your Assymetry layout, Delphic. Although, it is actually symmetric, on the X axis. ;)
Here's my updated layout now. (Might change again who knows.)
<img src="http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5926/layout2v.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(Although it does have one less line of symmetry than the others - which have an X shape compared to --- ).
@Thaldarin: 9 tech points!? You planning this for a mod with an protoss style third team ;)?
@Pipi: That layout looks like it'll play really interestingly, especially the link between the central two tech points and double... also it looks like a ship from above... I'm guessing this isn't an accident?
Actually it IS by accident haha !
It's just the way my layout went, but the distances are relative so it might not look like a ship at all when the map is complete.
I've seen that too when I completed the layout but then it might have some minor changes in it.
I wouldn't mind anyone using the layout or taking references of it to make a ship map.
Yes, the two central tech points are well "inside" the map and have many routes to them (4) but they're close to everything as well.
North most tech point doesn't have RT but still close to 2 others and linked to the previously mentioned 2 tech points.
South tech point has a RT and a direct vent to double. But again this is all subject to change following the gameplay tests, hehe.
<!--quoteo(post=1748793:date=Jan 23 2010, 11:11 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 23 2010, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has there been any talk about multilevel maps. A cube shaped map for example could add N-number of floors, with each floor having a different configuration... maybe like the "hive" in the resident evil movie.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This cannot be done because the top-down view of the commanders. They wont be able to see or place things on a lower level. You can have different levels but they have to be placed side by side and not atop each other.
I thought about some more asymetrical layout and came up with this:
<img src="http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8097/nsmaplayout.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Obviously noone has an idea if this is playable at all, but I'd like to share my thoughts about it. ;)
Both teams have easy access to one techpoint including one resource tower. (Top left, bottom right)
If we assume these movements the Kharaa will get double res and achieve an resource advantage,
however the marines have easy access to the remaining 2 techpoint from their ressource node in bottom right.
And so the fight will hopefully shift to controlling the central techpoint, but still leaving plenty of different ways
to fight back.
If it is possible to overcome an tech advantage with a res advantage this should thus be playable.
Edit:
Forgot something: In my opinion only the secondary route connecting the central techpoints should be accessible for the onos.
The weldable ways give the marines the opportunity to focus on the center but the right weldable will eventually break because Kharaa control top right ressource node. Bottom left prevents attacks from the back but gives the aliens then an easier way to attack the mainbase.
Please add your thoughts. :)