"<i>It is important to remember though that we don’t always agree with you, and even when we do, that doesn’t mean we are ready to discuss our future plans. <b>Even saying that we plan to make changes in the future can be an issue as players will get impatient if it takes awhile so we have to be careful with what we say.</b></i>"
<i>Read here:</i> Besides when I also read on the offical NS2 facebook page like this; "Thanks for helping us hit our <u><b>sales goals</b></u> guys!"
And with the latest news, how can people not get upset?
<i>It's all suspicious. I would never pre-order a game that I never even seen real gameplay footage from. If the focus is "reaching sales goals" from mappers, true fans of Natural Selection. You won't reach far.</i>
<b>By having a offical pre-order you gave many gamers a REASON</b> to be impatient and upset. <u>Only the true fans and mappers will be patient.</u> Those that <b>did not pre-order will soon forget this place and won't look back</b>. Sorry, that is the truth.
Just say this one more time [ no good games can be pre-ordered on the offical website without a release date for the game ] <b>It's -suicide-</b>
<i>But sure you can do this if you want some quick bucks and you know you have nothing to show for a long time so you want some cash in now to make it work.</i> But as I said...
<b>--- > At least I would call that pre-order "give donation to the team that work hard on NS2" and you get a GIFT like mapping tool.) Nobody upset, nobody impatient.</b>
Me saying: Hey buddy! Guess what!? You can NOW PRE-ORDER Natural Selection 2, wooow! Can't wait! Buddy saying: So? I could pre-order Natural Selection 2 for 1 year ago. Who cares.
Say I'm wrong here. Heh.
So logic says with a pre-order on the site they have put a huge risk, they need to show the game soon. Or it will be this...
Me saying: Buddy buddy, you can now pre-order the best game, NS2! Buddy buddy saying: So what? I could do that 2-3 years ago!
<i>Message to lego: If you see this - this was my last post. I think I said all I could say here. I just feel people don't get my point but that is it :) I just care, that's all.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1748092:date=Jan 19 2010, 07:33 PM:name=Ligerio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ligerio @ Jan 19 2010, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Me saying: Hey buddy! Guess what!? You can NOW PRE-ORDER Natural Selection 2, wooow! Can't wait! Buddy saying: So? I could pre-order Natural Selection 2 for 1 year ago. Who cares.
Say I'm wrong here. Heh.
So logic says with a pre-order on the site they have put a huge risk, they need to show the game soon. Or it will be this...
Me saying: Buddy buddy, you can now pre-order the best game, NS2! Buddy buddy saying: So what? I could do that 2-3 years ago!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have made multiple posts which basically say the same thing point taken. Now just sit back and let this post marinate so real discussion can emerge.
Just my 2c otherwise you just come off like a forum troll who enjoys bashing without the purpose of discussion.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2010
So this whole thread was about the same thing posted over and over again, to get the trailer pulled? Hmm, good to see this "Discussion" forum is being used in the most effective way know to man...
I think it is still a silly thing to keep the trailer online, as it is indeed misleading. But on the other hand, a video with some vague text in it like "Fall 2009" is not an official release date. But people who (keep your eye on this sentance people) <b>PRE</b> order can't expect a realesed game. Because that would be something else then (here it comes again) <b>PRE</b> ordering. I think last I checked; expecting a game when you pay money is something called <b>BUYING</b> a game.
Still the topic of this thread is about the misleading video, yep it should be pulled or changed... But saying things like oh hey they are not working on the game and more on the editor...
The editor is the engine is the game, think about it...
Sorry to rant like this. But I just hate internet "discussions", and I use this term lightly here, that are in constant repetition when a the point has long come and gone...
Seriously people, just go do something else. If this situation bothers you so much, don't even come on the forum or visit the site. They'll send out an email when something big happens (read: alpha). Meanwhile, let's all go do something useful and make the world a better place.
Perspective and logic are both utterly lacking from this thread. First of all, NS fanboys? Drop the attitude that UWE can 'do no wrong'. You are not helping the situation and your leaping to their defense is irrational at best.
Most of us already have money in the game. You can call it whatever you ****ing want, we have already <b>invested</b> in it. Maybe you aren't sure how investing in a company works, but usually investors expect to see results for their money. This goes double for the fact that UWE sent out a plea a while back suggesting that they were running out of money, that pre-orders are how they are funding development (hence, investors), and that without money from pre-orders the game wouldn't live.
None of this matters because you're just arguing an issue of bull**** semantics. We did buy the game already no matter what you want to call it. Back in the day, a 'pre-order' was a deposit you put down on a copy of the game. You'd walk in, get your deposit back, and buy the game that was reserved for you. If you didn't show up, you'd lose your copy. <b>The NS2 pre-order is no deposit, we have paid for our copy in advance</b>.
We bought that copy with the impression that while the game was not available *yet*, it would be in the near future. So what is the near future? At what point would you say it's fair for us to expect some actual indicators of progress? Duke Nukem Forever went on pre-order back in 2001. So what, we have to wait 8 years before it's permissible to complain about slow progress?
<u>This game is no longer a free mod</u>, so frankly, drop the god damn attitude that we're all ungrateful whiners. If this were a free product of love, nobody has any right to demand that it come out soon. That is not true. It's a professional product for sale in the retail market by a dedicated team in the employ of a company.
Apparently if you personally get with Flayra you can get a refund for your pre-order. What happens when I do that? They lose $40. What happens when Ligerio cancels his pre-order? They've lost $60-80.
What happens when the release slips another year and lots of people start canceling? They start having to pay refunds with money they don't have, and NS2 goes into debtor hell and dies completely.
<!--quoteo(post=1748114:date=Jan 20 2010, 04:47 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jan 20 2010, 04:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens when Ligerio cancels his pre-order?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ligerio will get a mail where it says "you have no pre-order!".
<i>Let me show you what I see here:</i>
WHEN CAN WE EXPECT THE ALPHA? I'm afraid we're not ready to give you a date for this yet! Last updated on <b><u>May 28, 2009</u></b> by Charlie Cleveland < 7, <b>soon 8 months</b> ago. ( <a href="http://www.naturalselection2.com/faq/game-questions/when-can-we-expect-the-alpha.html" target="_blank">http://www.naturalselection2.com/faq/game-...-the-alpha.html</a> )
<u><b>May 27, 2009 is the launch day of the NS2 "teaser" video</b></u> you see right away when you enter www.naturalselection2.com With a <u>clear message</u> at the end of the NS2 "teaser" video: <u><b>FALL 2009 PRE-ORDER NOW!</b></u>
<u><b>Now today in 2010</b></u> we have no new informartion and you still see the NS2 "teaser" video right in your face at the offical site.
So what do people have to go on if they are <u>new possible customer?</u> "Soon" that was the same message soon 8 months ago? And also again back to the informartion you find at frontpage such as big NS2 "teaser" video, FALL 2009 PRE-ORDER NOW! Right :)
\\ Clearly many of you don't get the what we are talking about here.
<i>Let me say this much with the informartion that you was given in May, 2009... And if I would pre-order in May, 2009... And I would be here today in January, 2010... I would felt cheated, simple as that.</i>
<b>And very much because there is NO UPDATE on WHY it's been delayed or given any status report.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1748114:date=Jan 20 2010, 04:47 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jan 20 2010, 04:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>This game is no longer a free mod</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Sorry, it's just very unprofessional</b>, when it's no longer a free mod. I would suspect this to be a little more professional handled.
\\ So please stop with the "I'll defend my base attitude!" ... Because your talking a talk that has nothing to do with this.
Possible new customer for NS2 team. Do you want more people to pay for this so the team get more funds to work on their game?
Then start realizing having a NS2 "teaser" video on the f****** main offical front page where it says FALL 2009 PRE-ORDER NOW! is... a... very... bad... idea... for... new... people... to... see... as we are in... 2010... and... the... whole... pre-order now plus "teaser" video was launched... for... seven (7) months ago... so what first... impression... does... it give... new customers... possible... customers...?
I guess most of you fans don't want NS2 team to be succsessfull.
And... bad... impression... still... with... no... status... update... on their... pre-order... as soon is the only thing you get as any "update"... soon = in 1 year.. 2 years.. 3 years.. "near in the future"...
Still... BAD... for... new customers... buy... marketing... advisor please?
I swear, capitalism is death sentence to morality...
Have some decency, people. Just because something is a commercial product doesn't mean developers have to kiss your ass. There's still like four people working on the game, and they're doing their best to keep in touch and up to date. You paying a breakfast's worth of money for their product doesn't mean you get an obligation to get all fired up when they miss a spot.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
edited January 2010
I think it can be safely said that you've made your point.
You'll be seeing more about the game itself and its status quite soon. I won't go into any detail on that, because, quite honestly, the details aren't up to me. As was pointed out earlier, the issue of missing our original date has been addressed before - when we showed our first screenshots.
Development is going very well right now and we can't wait to show you some of the things we've been working on.
In the meantime, please try not to take your grievances out on each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1748152:date=Jan 20 2010, 11:24 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Jan 20 2010, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'll be seeing more about the game itself and its status quite soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>YES</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1748152:date=Jan 20 2010, 09:24 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Jan 20 2010, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'll be seeing more about the game itself and its status quite soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot the â„¢ after soon. Or maybe that trademark belongs to Blizzard?
Anyways, I must say I like the new tradition with the friday updates, please keep it living, even if it's just small tidbits of info/alpha tool stuff =)
I don't think the attitude is disgusting, people here want Unknown Worlds to succeed. They feel that having a very outdated video, is only serving to hurt UWE. I find it odd that people oppose the idea of the video being pulled. It's very confusing to the on the fencers/wanderers.
This thread could be bad for NS2 as it adds some doubt to the player base and that could make the developers rush things and that is usually not a good thing. IMO they should have had the teaser just as it was but removed the release date removed.
Even though I'd like it if they could rush an alpha version of a half playable game so that players can test and give feedback they run the big risk of giving a bad first impression of the game witch in turn could result in an ever worse scenario for UWE, the same scenario that happened with Hellgate London that I was foolish enough to buy.
I think NS2 team are doing the right thing by focusing a bit on the editor, this way when things comes to alpha and beta testing there will be a great variety of maps available.
As an old player of NS1, server admin and even old-timer supporter of old NS leagues I want to add my comments about it.
Ligerio has a good point even if you guys think he has gone too far.
Most of people here that does post regulary are the fan base built from NS mod. We do know how good Flayra and Max can be when creating a game but average Joe maybe doesn't even knew about the HL mod.
And Ligerio I think isn't trying to troll or make UWE look bad, he is really trying to help the company to address some issues that might hurt them bad and is quite easy to fix. I think he really care about the game even if he didn't pre-order.
There is no need to realase the alpha right now. It just need more game-related information for general public. The hype created with the map editior is starting to fade and sometimes fan-base doesn't see that because of NS1 legacy. It needs someone from general public points out that something is wrong sometimes.
I pre-ordered at Day 1 and I can wait as long as is needed because I played NS1 and I really wanted them to succeed. But we must know that NS1 fanbase isn't 100% of the pre-order revenue. Any tip that makes communication with general public better is always welcome.
<!--quoteo(post=1748162:date=Jan 20 2010, 09:32 AM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jan 20 2010, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The attitude in this thread has been pretty appalling. Like, really disgusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
So many people sayng they 'care' and are trying to 'help' by swearing, raging and crying like spoilt children.
Those of you that feel aggrieved I ask you to open up Spark, your C++ editor or Maya and show me just how easy it is to make this video game.
The only thing I fear for is being associated with the aggressive behaviour of people who have not pre-ordered the game and have as Supernorn rightly has said, behaved in a disgusting way.
I think at times like this, it's obvious why bigger developers have marketing and PR departments.
I love NS, and I can't wait for NS2.
I also think the dev's have a bit of genius going for them, in terms of game development.
That being said, UWE is terrible with PR and marketing. As has been pointed out, they are still handling the image and marketing of this game as if it were a free mod. As soon as you start collecting money for something, you start collecting liability.
That's just basic accounting.
They were premature with their pre-orders, and premature with some of their marketing talk. That happens, we'll live. But it still doesn't change the fact that they have sold a product that doesn't exist largely on hopes and dreams. I only pre-ordered because it said it was coming in the fall of '09. That's just me being honest. Had they said the game was coming sometime in 2010 (or god forbid 2011), they wouldn't have my money right now. Period.
I can handle waiting a bit more for it, but I don't think it's fair to attack people that are upset by their marketing tactics (if you haven't bought the game, you have no room to talk, because UWE has no liability to you or your opinion).
They REALLY need to hire somebody to handle the community, though. With all this talk about huge success with sales and goals, we as a community better see a bit of that payoff on our end, as we are the driving force that enabled such success.
Give us someone that can spend a large chunk of their time talking to us, quelling our fears, relaying important things to the right dev ears, and keeping track of marketing entities (ie, the website, teaser trailer, etc.).
It's a new market, and with new social tools, consumers are now DEMANDING to be in the loop of information. Daily updates are critical, and wouldn't be hard to do. We, as a fanbase, did not put this burden on UWE. UWE put it on themselves when they started collecting money.
<!--quoteo(post=1748191:date=Jan 20 2010, 07:59 AM:name=ckreon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ckreon @ Jan 20 2010, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think at times like this, it's obvious why bigger developers have marketing and PR departments.
I love NS, and I can't wait for NS2.
I also think the dev's have a bit of genius going for them, in terms of game development.
That being said, UWE is terrible with PR and marketing. As has been pointed out, they are still handling the image and marketing of this game as if it were a free mod. As soon as you start collecting money for something, you start collecting liability.
That's just basic accounting.
They were premature with their pre-orders, and premature with some of their marketing talk. That happens, we'll live. But it still doesn't change the fact that they have sold a product that doesn't exist largely on hopes and dreams. I only pre-ordered because it said it was coming in the fall of '09. That's just me being honest. Had they said the game was coming sometime in 2010 (or god forbid 2011), they wouldn't have my money right now. Period.
I can handle waiting a bit more for it, but I don't think it's fair to attack people that are upset by their marketing tactics (if you haven't bought the game, you have no room to talk, because UWE has no liability to you or your opinion).
They REALLY need to hire somebody to handle the community, though. With all this talk about huge success with sales and goals, we as a community better see a bit of that payoff on our end, as we are the driving force that enabled such success.
Give us someone that can spend a large chunk of their time talking to us, quelling our fears, relaying important things to the right dev ears, and keeping track of marketing entities (ie, the website, teaser trailer, etc.).
It's a new market, and with new social tools, consumers are now DEMANDING to be in the loop of information. Daily updates are critical, and wouldn't be hard to do. We, as a fanbase, did not put this burden on UWE. UWE put it on themselves when they started collecting money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree. UWE is way more involved with the community than major development studios. Take EA/DICE, or IW for example. They don't talk to their fans at all, and when they do it's never good. To this day UWE has released more media, and been way more involved than most companies. I agree with you that they should try and update their release date video, but the whole daily update thing is way over the top. I think you are grossly overestimating the involvement the mainstreams have with their fans, because it appears to me from trolling around here for a while before I joined that UWE is far closer to the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1748194:date=Jan 20 2010, 05:19 AM:name=Tephra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tephra @ Jan 20 2010, 05:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to disagree. UWE is way more involved with the community than major development studios. Take EA/DICE, or IW for example. They don't talk to their fans at all, and when they do it's never good. To this day UWE has released more media, and been way more involved than most companies. I agree with you that they should try and update their release date video, but the whole daily update thing is way over the top. I think you are grossly overestimating the involvement the mainstreams have with their fans, because it appears to me from trolling around here for a while before I joined that UWE is far closer to the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And look how consumers rallied against EA (along with IW and Activision) for their actions (or lack thereof).
EA made some changes, and have now lowered to the second-most-hated developer/publisher.
Daily updates are not a big deal with twitter at your hand. I'm not expecting them to give us a 10 page brief of each days activity. I'm talking about taking 5 seconds to send a text from your cell at lunch (or whatever). For example: "Max is busy programming today, fixed a shader glitch." Or "Brainstormed some new ideas for res."
These are very simple things, that take almost no time to do, and yet they give us as a community something to put our faith into.
And of course UWE has been more communicative with their audience than the majors. That's just a given, their an indie team, they better be. I'm just offering ways to make that better. Look at Wolfire - they are great with their community; they put up videos, interact regularly on the forums - in my opinion they are a great example to follow in terms of indie marketing and PR.
Do not forget that middle in 2009, the people behind NS2 asked Valve behind SteamPowered to set up pre-order on their service.
Imagine if Valve would accepted that. And NS2 team would get alot of income.
Then when we would get to 2010 without the game, what would happen? It would <b>put Valve in a bad light</b> for selling pre-order for a game that have: - <b>No release date</b>. - <b>No real gameplay footage</b>. - <b>Just a "soon" coming to you</b>. So <b>Valve is just being realistic by not having NS2 as pre-order on their service</b>, why can't we be realistic? And talk realistic.
Don't you think so? <u>What are the people behind NS2 thinking by asking Valve to have pre-order of this game on their service</u>?
And I bet nobody will reply to this because they cannot say that I am wrong here.
<!--quoteo(post=1748197:date=Jan 20 2010, 01:28 PM:name=ckreon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ckreon @ Jan 20 2010, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Daily updates are not a big deal with twitter at your hand. I'm not expecting them to give us a 10 page brief of each days activity. I'm talking about taking 5 seconds to send a text from your cell at lunch (or whatever). For example: "Max is busy programming today, fixed a shader glitch." Or "Brainstormed some new ideas for res."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
I think that would only make things worse, actually. To me that reeks of a half-assed attempt. Just what I want to hear when we're getting antsy for new content is how great the sandwiches are. "Glad you have time for a delicious sandwich, get the **** back to work already." Plus, I refuse to associate with Twitter - I should be able to get my news from here.
Mechwarrior Living Legends (<b>free</b> mod) had monthly updates. When progress on the game moved into a more feature-based area, they moved to weekly updates and showcased all their good stuff. It doesn't take long to make one of these. As the game was wrapping up and development turned to more engine-based, it went back to monthly, as you can't really showcase programming.
Now don't get me wrong - I haven't done any complaining about how long the game is taking. I'm not at the point where I'm frustrated yet. But I do understand that people who *are* frustrated <b>are not wrong</b>. Yes, if you haven't pre-ordered, you can't complain. But myself and any other customers who want to complain have every right to do so, and, as I pointed out, this isn't a free mod anymore. It's pretty difficult to find rational grounds to defend UWE on this. You can't even say 'be patient' as they already slipped on the release date, so who's to say how long it's acceptable to 'be patient' for?
I'm more than content to wait for a while. I understand probably better than most people here what a bad alpha will do to this game. Two things are key; the alpha / beta needs to be over <i>as quickly as possible</i> to prevent people from losing interest before the full game is even released (and it means less time for the god-awful ITS ONLY A BETA STFU posts that are going to clog this place), and it needs to be in as good condition as it can be. A prolonged alpha/beta or even just seeming like it's stuck in beta limbo is going to hurt players, and a very crappy beta is going to hurt sales. Fact is, 99% of the internet has absolutely no idea what an alpha or a beta is.
I'm fine with waiting longer - I have other stuff to occupy my time in the meantime (*cough* mechwarrior). If it takes longer, oh well - honestly I totally forgot about the Fall 09 release date so I wasn't bothered. But I am bothered by people acting like we should still treat this game as a free mod and like we shouldn't have expectant attitudes about something we bought.
Comments
I would love somebody also to reply to this:
"<i>It is important to remember though that we don’t always agree with you, and even when we do, that doesn’t mean we are ready to discuss our future plans. <b>Even saying that we plan to make changes in the future can be an issue as players will get impatient if it takes awhile so we have to be careful with what we say.</b></i>"
<i>Read here:</i>
Besides when I also read on the offical NS2 facebook page like this;
"Thanks for helping us hit our <u><b>sales goals</b></u> guys!"
And with the latest news, how can people not get upset?
<i>It's all suspicious. I would never pre-order a game that I never even seen real gameplay footage from.
If the focus is "reaching sales goals" from mappers, true fans of Natural Selection.
You won't reach far.</i>
<b>By having a offical pre-order you gave many gamers a REASON</b> to be impatient and upset.
<u>Only the true fans and mappers will be patient.</u>
Those that <b>did not pre-order will soon forget this place and won't look back</b>. Sorry, that is the truth.
Just say this one more time [ no good games can be pre-ordered on the offical website without a release date for the game ]
<b>It's -suicide-</b>
<i>But sure you can do this if you want some quick bucks and you know you have nothing to show for a long time so you want some cash in now to make it work.</i> But as I said...
<b>--- > At least I would call that pre-order "give donation to the team that work hard on NS2" and you get a GIFT like mapping tool.)
Nobody upset, nobody impatient.</b>
This is the big PR buzz which gets people going hot damn this game might come out soon.
People who watch the video now might go wow that looks awesome. Then notice a release date which has come and gone.
The other thing I agree with is spicing up the news section with balanced updates.
Like the op I really don't care about mapping thus I have not pre-ordered yet.
Even just a small amount of developer commentary on something new non spark related would be very welcomed.
Lastly people don't generally complain about things unless they care.
Makes sense a lot of us played the game for many years, NS2 should be a lot of fun.
Buddy saying: So? I could pre-order Natural Selection 2 for 1 year ago. Who cares.
Say I'm wrong here. Heh.
So logic says with a pre-order on the site they have put a huge risk, they need to show the game soon.
Or it will be this...
Me saying: Buddy buddy, you can now pre-order the best game, NS2!
Buddy buddy saying: So what? I could do that 2-3 years ago!
<i>Message to lego: If you see this - this was my last post. I think I said all I could say here.
I just feel people don't get my point but that is it :) I just care, that's all.</i>
Should be pulled, or updated.
Buddy saying: So? I could pre-order Natural Selection 2 for 1 year ago. Who cares.
Say I'm wrong here. Heh.
So logic says with a pre-order on the site they have put a huge risk, they need to show the game soon.
Or it will be this...
Me saying: Buddy buddy, you can now pre-order the best game, NS2!
Buddy buddy saying: So what? I could do that 2-3 years ago!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have made multiple posts which basically say the same thing point taken. Now just sit back and let this post marinate so real discussion can emerge.
Just my 2c otherwise you just come off like a forum troll who enjoys bashing without the purpose of discussion.
I think it is still a silly thing to keep the trailer online, as it is indeed misleading. But on the other hand, a video with some vague text in it like "Fall 2009" is not an official release date. But people who (keep your eye on this sentance people) <b>PRE</b> order can't expect a realesed game. Because that would be something else then (here it comes again) <b>PRE</b> ordering. I think last I checked; expecting a game when you pay money is something called <b>BUYING</b> a game.
Still the topic of this thread is about the misleading video, yep it should be pulled or changed... But saying things like oh hey they are not working on the game and more on the editor...
The editor is the engine is the game, think about it...
Sorry to rant like this. But I just hate internet "discussions", and I use this term lightly here, that are in constant repetition when a the point has long come and gone...
Seriously people, just go do something else. If this situation bothers you so much, don't even come on the forum or visit the site. They'll send out an email when something big happens (read: alpha). Meanwhile, let's all go do something useful and make the world a better place.
edit: grammor & parenthesis
Most of us already have money in the game. You can call it whatever you ****ing want, we have already <b>invested</b> in it. Maybe you aren't sure how investing in a company works, but usually investors expect to see results for their money. This goes double for the fact that UWE sent out a plea a while back suggesting that they were running out of money, that pre-orders are how they are funding development (hence, investors), and that without money from pre-orders the game wouldn't live.
None of this matters because you're just arguing an issue of bull**** semantics. We did buy the game already no matter what you want to call it. Back in the day, a 'pre-order' was a deposit you put down on a copy of the game. You'd walk in, get your deposit back, and buy the game that was reserved for you. If you didn't show up, you'd lose your copy. <b>The NS2 pre-order is no deposit, we have paid for our copy in advance</b>.
We bought that copy with the impression that while the game was not available *yet*, it would be in the near future. So what is the near future? At what point would you say it's fair for us to expect some actual indicators of progress? Duke Nukem Forever went on pre-order back in 2001. So what, we have to wait 8 years before it's permissible to complain about slow progress?
<u>This game is no longer a free mod</u>, so frankly, drop the god damn attitude that we're all ungrateful whiners. If this were a free product of love, nobody has any right to demand that it come out soon. That is not true. It's a professional product for sale in the retail market by a dedicated team in the employ of a company.
Apparently if you personally get with Flayra you can get a refund for your pre-order. What happens when I do that? They lose $40. What happens when Ligerio cancels his pre-order? They've lost $60-80.
What happens when the release slips another year and lots of people start canceling? They start having to pay refunds with money they don't have, and NS2 goes into debtor hell and dies completely.
Ligerio will get a mail where it says "you have no pre-order!".
<i>Let me show you what I see here:</i>
WHEN CAN WE EXPECT THE ALPHA?
I'm afraid we're not ready to give you a date for this yet!
Last updated on <b><u>May 28, 2009</u></b> by Charlie Cleveland < 7, <b>soon 8 months</b> ago.
( <a href="http://www.naturalselection2.com/faq/game-questions/when-can-we-expect-the-alpha.html" target="_blank">http://www.naturalselection2.com/faq/game-...-the-alpha.html</a> )
<u><b>May 27, 2009 is the launch day of the NS2 "teaser" video</b></u> you see right away when you enter www.naturalselection2.com
With a <u>clear message</u> at the end of the NS2 "teaser" video: <u><b>FALL 2009 PRE-ORDER NOW!</b></u>
<u><b>Now today in 2010</b></u> we have no new informartion and you still see the NS2 "teaser" video right in your face at the offical site.
So what do people have to go on if they are <u>new possible customer?</u>
"Soon" that was the same message soon 8 months ago?
And also again back to the informartion you find at frontpage such as big NS2 "teaser" video, FALL 2009 PRE-ORDER NOW! Right :)
\\ Clearly many of you don't get the what we are talking about here.
<i>Let me say this much with the informartion that you was given in May, 2009...
And if I would pre-order in May, 2009...
And I would be here today in January, 2010...
I would felt cheated, simple as that.</i>
<b>And very much because there is NO UPDATE on WHY it's been delayed or given any status report.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1748114:date=Jan 20 2010, 04:47 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jan 20 2010, 04:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1748114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>This game is no longer a free mod</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Sorry, it's just very unprofessional</b>, when it's no longer a free mod.
I would suspect this to be a little more professional handled.
\\ So please stop with the "I'll defend my base attitude!" ... Because your talking a talk that has nothing to do with this.
Possible new customer for NS2 team. Do you want more people to pay for this so the team get more funds to work on their game?
Then start realizing having a NS2 "teaser" video on the f****** main offical front page where it says FALL 2009 PRE-ORDER NOW!
is... a... very... bad... idea... for... new... people... to... see... as we are in... 2010...
and... the... whole... pre-order now plus "teaser" video was launched... for... seven (7) months ago...
so what first... impression... does... it give... new customers... possible... customers...?
I guess most of you fans don't want NS2 team to be succsessfull.
And... bad... impression... still... with... no... status... update... on their... pre-order...
as soon is the only thing you get as any "update"... soon = in 1 year.. 2 years.. 3 years.. "near in the future"...
Still... BAD... for... new customers... buy... marketing... advisor please?
even more deaf ears.
drop it or e-mail the devs. This thread doesn't help anything.
Have some decency, people. Just because something is a commercial product doesn't mean developers have to kiss your ass. There's still like four people working on the game, and they're doing their best to keep in touch and up to date. You paying a breakfast's worth of money for their product doesn't mean you get an obligation to get all fired up when they miss a spot.
You'll be seeing more about the game itself and its status quite soon. I won't go into any detail on that, because, quite honestly, the details aren't up to me. As was pointed out earlier, the issue of missing our original date has been addressed before - when we showed our first screenshots.
Development is going very well right now and we can't wait to show you some of the things we've been working on.
In the meantime, please try not to take your grievances out on each other.
<b>YES</b>
You forgot the â„¢ after soon. Or maybe that trademark belongs to Blizzard?
Anyways, I must say I like the new tradition with the friday updates, please keep it living, even if it's just small tidbits of info/alpha tool stuff =)
Really? What made it so disgusting for you?
Even though I'd like it if they could rush an alpha version of a half playable game so that players can test and give feedback they run the big risk of giving a bad first impression of the game witch in turn could result in an ever worse scenario for UWE, the same scenario that happened with Hellgate London that I was foolish enough to buy.
I think NS2 team are doing the right thing by focusing a bit on the editor, this way when things comes to alpha and beta testing there will be a great variety of maps available.
Ligerio has a good point even if you guys think he has gone too far.
Most of people here that does post regulary are the fan base built from NS mod. We do know how good Flayra and Max can be when creating a game but average Joe maybe doesn't even knew about the HL mod.
And Ligerio I think isn't trying to troll or make UWE look bad, he is really trying to help the company to address some issues that might hurt them bad and is quite easy to fix. I think he really care about the game even if he didn't pre-order.
There is no need to realase the alpha right now. It just need more game-related information for general public. The hype created with the map editior is starting to fade and sometimes fan-base doesn't see that because of NS1 legacy. It needs someone from general public points out that something is wrong sometimes.
I pre-ordered at Day 1 and I can wait as long as is needed because I played NS1 and I really wanted them to succeed. But we must know that NS1 fanbase isn't 100% of the pre-order revenue. Any tip that makes communication with general public better is always welcome.
My 2 cents.
QFT
So many people sayng they 'care' and are trying to 'help' by swearing, raging and crying like spoilt children.
Those of you that feel aggrieved I ask you to open up Spark, your C++ editor or Maya and show me just how easy it is to make this video game.
The only thing I fear for is being associated with the aggressive behaviour of people who have not pre-ordered the game and have as Supernorn rightly has said, behaved in a disgusting way.
I love NS, and I can't wait for NS2.
I also think the dev's have a bit of genius going for them, in terms of game development.
That being said, UWE is terrible with PR and marketing. As has been pointed out, they are still handling the image and marketing of this game as if it were a free mod. As soon as you start collecting money for something, you start collecting liability.
That's just basic accounting.
They were premature with their pre-orders, and premature with some of their marketing talk. That happens, we'll live. But it still doesn't change the fact that they have sold a product that doesn't exist largely on hopes and dreams. I only pre-ordered because it said it was coming in the fall of '09. That's just me being honest. Had they said the game was coming sometime in 2010 (or god forbid 2011), they wouldn't have my money right now. Period.
I can handle waiting a bit more for it, but I don't think it's fair to attack people that are upset by their marketing tactics (if you haven't bought the game, you have no room to talk, because UWE has no liability to you or your opinion).
They REALLY need to hire somebody to handle the community, though. With all this talk about huge success with sales and goals, we as a community better see a bit of that payoff on our end, as we are the driving force that enabled such success.
Give us someone that can spend a large chunk of their time talking to us, quelling our fears, relaying important things to the right dev ears, and keeping track of marketing entities (ie, the website, teaser trailer, etc.).
It's a new market, and with new social tools, consumers are now DEMANDING to be in the loop of information. Daily updates are critical, and wouldn't be hard to do. We, as a fanbase, did not put this burden on UWE. UWE put it on themselves when they started collecting money.
I love NS, and I can't wait for NS2.
I also think the dev's have a bit of genius going for them, in terms of game development.
That being said, UWE is terrible with PR and marketing. As has been pointed out, they are still handling the image and marketing of this game as if it were a free mod. As soon as you start collecting money for something, you start collecting liability.
That's just basic accounting.
They were premature with their pre-orders, and premature with some of their marketing talk. That happens, we'll live. But it still doesn't change the fact that they have sold a product that doesn't exist largely on hopes and dreams. I only pre-ordered because it said it was coming in the fall of '09. That's just me being honest. Had they said the game was coming sometime in 2010 (or god forbid 2011), they wouldn't have my money right now. Period.
I can handle waiting a bit more for it, but I don't think it's fair to attack people that are upset by their marketing tactics (if you haven't bought the game, you have no room to talk, because UWE has no liability to you or your opinion).
They REALLY need to hire somebody to handle the community, though. With all this talk about huge success with sales and goals, we as a community better see a bit of that payoff on our end, as we are the driving force that enabled such success.
Give us someone that can spend a large chunk of their time talking to us, quelling our fears, relaying important things to the right dev ears, and keeping track of marketing entities (ie, the website, teaser trailer, etc.).
It's a new market, and with new social tools, consumers are now DEMANDING to be in the loop of information. Daily updates are critical, and wouldn't be hard to do. We, as a fanbase, did not put this burden on UWE. UWE put it on themselves when they started collecting money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree. UWE is way more involved with the community than major development studios. Take EA/DICE, or IW for example. They don't talk to their fans at all, and when they do it's never good. To this day UWE has released more media, and been way more involved than most companies. I agree with you that they should try and update their release date video, but the whole daily update thing is way over the top. I think you are grossly overestimating the involvement the mainstreams have with their fans, because it appears to me from trolling around here for a while before I joined that UWE is far closer to the community.
And look how consumers rallied against EA (along with IW and Activision) for their actions (or lack thereof).
EA made some changes, and have now lowered to the second-most-hated developer/publisher.
Daily updates are not a big deal with twitter at your hand. I'm not expecting them to give us a 10 page brief of each days activity. I'm talking about taking 5 seconds to send a text from your cell at lunch (or whatever). For example: "Max is busy programming today, fixed a shader glitch." Or "Brainstormed some new ideas for res."
These are very simple things, that take almost no time to do, and yet they give us as a community something to put our faith into.
And of course UWE has been more communicative with their audience than the majors. That's just a given, their an indie team, they better be. I'm just offering ways to make that better. Look at Wolfire - they are great with their community; they put up videos, interact regularly on the forums - in my opinion they are a great example to follow in terms of indie marketing and PR.
UWE could take a few hints from them.
asked Valve behind SteamPowered to set up pre-order on their service.
Imagine if Valve would accepted that.
And NS2 team would get alot of income.
Then when we would get to 2010 without the game, what would happen?
It would <b>put Valve in a bad light</b> for selling pre-order for a game that have:
- <b>No release date</b>.
- <b>No real gameplay footage</b>.
- <b>Just a "soon" coming to you</b>.
So <b>Valve is just being realistic by not having NS2 as pre-order on their service</b>, why can't we be realistic? And talk realistic.
Don't you think so?
<u>What are the people behind NS2 thinking by asking Valve to have pre-order of this game on their service</u>?
And I bet nobody will reply to this because they cannot say that I am wrong here.
...
I think that would only make things worse, actually. To me that reeks of a half-assed attempt. Just what I want to hear when we're getting antsy for new content is how great the sandwiches are. "Glad you have time for a delicious sandwich, get the **** back to work already." Plus, I refuse to associate with Twitter - I should be able to get my news from here.
Mechwarrior Living Legends (<b>free</b> mod) had monthly updates. When progress on the game moved into a more feature-based area, they moved to weekly updates and showcased all their good stuff. It doesn't take long to make one of these. As the game was wrapping up and development turned to more engine-based, it went back to monthly, as you can't really showcase programming.
Now don't get me wrong - I haven't done any complaining about how long the game is taking. I'm not at the point where I'm frustrated yet. But I do understand that people who *are* frustrated <b>are not wrong</b>. Yes, if you haven't pre-ordered, you can't complain. But myself and any other customers who want to complain have every right to do so, and, as I pointed out, this isn't a free mod anymore. It's pretty difficult to find rational grounds to defend UWE on this. You can't even say 'be patient' as they already slipped on the release date, so who's to say how long it's acceptable to 'be patient' for?
I'm more than content to wait for a while. I understand probably better than most people here what a bad alpha will do to this game. Two things are key; the alpha / beta needs to be over <i>as quickly as possible</i> to prevent people from losing interest before the full game is even released (and it means less time for the god-awful ITS ONLY A BETA STFU posts that are going to clog this place), and it needs to be in as good condition as it can be. A prolonged alpha/beta or even just seeming like it's stuck in beta limbo is going to hurt players, and a very crappy beta is going to hurt sales. Fact is, 99% of the internet has absolutely no idea what an alpha or a beta is.
I'm fine with waiting longer - I have other stuff to occupy my time in the meantime (*cough* mechwarrior). If it takes longer, oh well - honestly I totally forgot about the Fall 09 release date so I wasn't bothered. But I am bothered by people acting like we should still treat this game as a free mod and like we shouldn't have expectant attitudes about something we bought.
UWE is always posting on here.
They do pretty well with the forums, I won't disagree there.