Infestation, Technology and Supply lines
wilbefast
Join Date: 2009-10-18 Member: 69079Members
Join Date: 2009-10-18 Member: 69079Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Alien equivalents of the power grid</div>As it was on the Wolfire board, now that I own the game I feel that it is my right to tell developers how to do their jobs, and their duty to pretend to listen, even though I have no idea what I'm talking about and am clearly deranged. So here begins an obnoxiously long post that nobody in their right mind will bother reading.
Also I won't lie to you, I'm not an NS player. However, if this means I don't have much experience (read - again, I have no idea what I'm talking about) it also means I can bring a new perspective to the table, so hear me out before you shoot me down in flames :-P
A lot of discussion has sprung from the idea of giving the Marines <a href="http://shfts.com/?p=1287" target="_blank">multiple Command Posts</a>, making <a href="http://www.nofrag.com/2008/dec/04/30183/" target="_blank">Aliens able to take command</a> and making the Marines reliant on a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2009/4/marine_power_grid_design" target="_blank">Power Grid</a>. People say that multiple Command Posts and Alien Commanders make the Marines too much like the aliens, while the Power Grid makes them too dissimilar and threatens balance.
<u><b>1 Commander vs 0 Commanders -> n Commanders vs n Commanders</b></u>
In the first game the Aliens had no Commander and multiple Hives, while the Marines had one Command Post and one Commander. Now both sides can have as many Commanders as they have Hives/Command posts, and both sides' tech-level will be dependent on the number of Tech Points they control, in other words the number of Hives/Command posts. In addition instead of Alien construction being done by independent Gorges, construction for both sides will by done by Commander-controlled Bots for the Marines or Glowies/Nymphs for the Aliens.
This looks like endangering the distinctive feel of each of the teams, especially the Aliens', who have gone from being a collection of independent "Terrorist Cells" to a more organised force with a central command unit on whom they depend. Or have they?
<u><b>Infestation = Power Grid?</b></u>
I think the key to maintaining the interesting differences between the factions is the way in which they expand and control territory and resources. The Marines have their Power Grid, meaning that they have to slowly push their way across the map, keeping their supply lines open. So what about the Aliens? Well, their expansion will be based on their Bacterium/Infestation, which will slowly grow outwards from any buildings they have deployed. This infestation will disable lights, doors and other bits of technology that the Marines have activated. Infestation nodes can be placed by the Alien Commander(s), and Infestation will heal allies who stand on it and unlock various Infestation-only abilities. Both sides will thus have an advantage if they're fighting on "home soil" - so much so that Infestation could be seen as an Alien equivalent of the Power Grid. However, unlike the first game, where this "home soil" is will change as the game progresses.
<u><b>Infestation =/= Power Grid</b></u>
There are a few difference between the two sides though: while Infestation can be placed, it seems to grow outwards in all directions entirely at random - it can't be directed. What's more while power lines are always in the same place, Infestation doesn't follow a predetermined path. Finally, it seems fair to guess that Infestation will not need to be "connected" to a central node to continue growing - if you cut a patch of moss in half both sides will carry on spreading and eventually join up again. This means the any Infestation the Marines fail to clear up with flame-throwers could regenerate, allowing Aliens to pop up just about anywhere to wage their war of attrition.
<u><b>Marine expansion vs Alien expansion</b></u>
So far this has all be recapitulation - now for some ideas! First up, how Marine expand is fairly well set out in the blog post, but things have changed over time and it's not always entirely clear. What seems likely is that building will be done by Commander-controlled bots, tech-level will depend on the number of Command Posts (up to a maximum of 3) and expansion will be governed by the Power Grid. Here is a flow-chart I made explaining my suggestions. I like flow-charts, they don't judge me:
<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/1fv2x0.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So in order to claim resources and build in a new area the Marines need to:
<b>1. clear out any Aliens and Infestation in an adjacent area
2. have their commander create a builder-bot
3. escort and guard the builder as it constructs a Resource Tower
4. wait for power to come on-line
5. protect the Resource Tower and connections to power grid</b>
Nothing much new here: Resource towers, when active, will provide resources for all Commanders and Marines - Commanders get more but Marines can also get resources from killing enemies. I reckon Commanders should be able to place bounties to give (idiots) some incentive to follow orders. Maybe the already can :-S. Their cash also goes towards creating buildings and the builders themselves. The developers are planning to let them requisition certain "spells" to help-out other players from above - I think this is better reserved for the Alien commander, with the Marine abilities being level-dependent: for example, elevators or other transportations devices could be activated and well as traps like airlocks or furnaces, depending on the level. There might even be a mini-nuke lying around that you could set off or a generator that could be overloaded just before retreating from the area. The Marines are at home so as long as the technology lying around is in working order they can use it for all sorts of things - the Aliens' job would be to make sure it isn't.
The Aliens themselves don't need to connect Resource Chambers to a Power Grid for them to function: they only need them to be alive. But for them to be alive in the first place the Aliens need to build them. Building has been delegated to the Commanders now, who will create Nymphs that can morph into various structures by attaching themselves, foetus-like, to the placenta-Infestation. Likewise Aliens wishing to morph from one creature to another should need to find a patch of Infestation to form their chrysalis on. Resource Chambers shouldn't need a placenta though, as they can nourish themselves from the... resource... stuff. Basically this is an excuse to let players build them anywhere, otherwise they'd have to wait for the Infestation to "decide" to enter the area. Doing so can "bootstrap" Infestation in a new location - and while there is no centralised node it should grow faster the closer it is to an Alien building, spreading quickly to allow more buildings to be placed afterwards.
<img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/28s1szr.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I'm not sure if there's a distinction between 'normal' Nymphs (which float around and then turn into eggs) and the 'special' ones controlled by the Commander, but I'm generally assuming there's two types. Anyway, unlike the Marines, the Aliens can't use any of the technology that's scattered around the level, they can only sabotage it. To make up for this their commander can use various abilities to help them out, like making the Bacterium/Infestation secrete some sort of choke-y gas, or heal-y gas, or create eggs somewhere close to the front (instant spawn point - just add water) or something like that.
<u><b>Conclusion</b></u>
You're probably wondering what I'm actually suggesting. So am I - I lost track somewhere along the way (anywhere but the face!) - I think the point is: the Aliens can have a Saboteur/Guerilla feel, while still expanding in a unique fashion, similar to but different from the power grid. By giving both sides extra abilities and advantages that only work while on their "home soil", you can make territory control an important and interesting part of game-play, more than just a way of getting resources. Finally by giving the factions a similar texture but a different flavour, you can keep the distinction while helping new players understand what they're supposed to be doing (nobody likes being a liability).
What do you think of my groovy flow-charts?
Also I won't lie to you, I'm not an NS player. However, if this means I don't have much experience (read - again, I have no idea what I'm talking about) it also means I can bring a new perspective to the table, so hear me out before you shoot me down in flames :-P
A lot of discussion has sprung from the idea of giving the Marines <a href="http://shfts.com/?p=1287" target="_blank">multiple Command Posts</a>, making <a href="http://www.nofrag.com/2008/dec/04/30183/" target="_blank">Aliens able to take command</a> and making the Marines reliant on a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2009/4/marine_power_grid_design" target="_blank">Power Grid</a>. People say that multiple Command Posts and Alien Commanders make the Marines too much like the aliens, while the Power Grid makes them too dissimilar and threatens balance.
<u><b>1 Commander vs 0 Commanders -> n Commanders vs n Commanders</b></u>
In the first game the Aliens had no Commander and multiple Hives, while the Marines had one Command Post and one Commander. Now both sides can have as many Commanders as they have Hives/Command posts, and both sides' tech-level will be dependent on the number of Tech Points they control, in other words the number of Hives/Command posts. In addition instead of Alien construction being done by independent Gorges, construction for both sides will by done by Commander-controlled Bots for the Marines or Glowies/Nymphs for the Aliens.
This looks like endangering the distinctive feel of each of the teams, especially the Aliens', who have gone from being a collection of independent "Terrorist Cells" to a more organised force with a central command unit on whom they depend. Or have they?
<u><b>Infestation = Power Grid?</b></u>
I think the key to maintaining the interesting differences between the factions is the way in which they expand and control territory and resources. The Marines have their Power Grid, meaning that they have to slowly push their way across the map, keeping their supply lines open. So what about the Aliens? Well, their expansion will be based on their Bacterium/Infestation, which will slowly grow outwards from any buildings they have deployed. This infestation will disable lights, doors and other bits of technology that the Marines have activated. Infestation nodes can be placed by the Alien Commander(s), and Infestation will heal allies who stand on it and unlock various Infestation-only abilities. Both sides will thus have an advantage if they're fighting on "home soil" - so much so that Infestation could be seen as an Alien equivalent of the Power Grid. However, unlike the first game, where this "home soil" is will change as the game progresses.
<u><b>Infestation =/= Power Grid</b></u>
There are a few difference between the two sides though: while Infestation can be placed, it seems to grow outwards in all directions entirely at random - it can't be directed. What's more while power lines are always in the same place, Infestation doesn't follow a predetermined path. Finally, it seems fair to guess that Infestation will not need to be "connected" to a central node to continue growing - if you cut a patch of moss in half both sides will carry on spreading and eventually join up again. This means the any Infestation the Marines fail to clear up with flame-throwers could regenerate, allowing Aliens to pop up just about anywhere to wage their war of attrition.
<u><b>Marine expansion vs Alien expansion</b></u>
So far this has all be recapitulation - now for some ideas! First up, how Marine expand is fairly well set out in the blog post, but things have changed over time and it's not always entirely clear. What seems likely is that building will be done by Commander-controlled bots, tech-level will depend on the number of Command Posts (up to a maximum of 3) and expansion will be governed by the Power Grid. Here is a flow-chart I made explaining my suggestions. I like flow-charts, they don't judge me:
<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/1fv2x0.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So in order to claim resources and build in a new area the Marines need to:
<b>1. clear out any Aliens and Infestation in an adjacent area
2. have their commander create a builder-bot
3. escort and guard the builder as it constructs a Resource Tower
4. wait for power to come on-line
5. protect the Resource Tower and connections to power grid</b>
Nothing much new here: Resource towers, when active, will provide resources for all Commanders and Marines - Commanders get more but Marines can also get resources from killing enemies. I reckon Commanders should be able to place bounties to give (idiots) some incentive to follow orders. Maybe the already can :-S. Their cash also goes towards creating buildings and the builders themselves. The developers are planning to let them requisition certain "spells" to help-out other players from above - I think this is better reserved for the Alien commander, with the Marine abilities being level-dependent: for example, elevators or other transportations devices could be activated and well as traps like airlocks or furnaces, depending on the level. There might even be a mini-nuke lying around that you could set off or a generator that could be overloaded just before retreating from the area. The Marines are at home so as long as the technology lying around is in working order they can use it for all sorts of things - the Aliens' job would be to make sure it isn't.
The Aliens themselves don't need to connect Resource Chambers to a Power Grid for them to function: they only need them to be alive. But for them to be alive in the first place the Aliens need to build them. Building has been delegated to the Commanders now, who will create Nymphs that can morph into various structures by attaching themselves, foetus-like, to the placenta-Infestation. Likewise Aliens wishing to morph from one creature to another should need to find a patch of Infestation to form their chrysalis on. Resource Chambers shouldn't need a placenta though, as they can nourish themselves from the... resource... stuff. Basically this is an excuse to let players build them anywhere, otherwise they'd have to wait for the Infestation to "decide" to enter the area. Doing so can "bootstrap" Infestation in a new location - and while there is no centralised node it should grow faster the closer it is to an Alien building, spreading quickly to allow more buildings to be placed afterwards.
<img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/28s1szr.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I'm not sure if there's a distinction between 'normal' Nymphs (which float around and then turn into eggs) and the 'special' ones controlled by the Commander, but I'm generally assuming there's two types. Anyway, unlike the Marines, the Aliens can't use any of the technology that's scattered around the level, they can only sabotage it. To make up for this their commander can use various abilities to help them out, like making the Bacterium/Infestation secrete some sort of choke-y gas, or heal-y gas, or create eggs somewhere close to the front (instant spawn point - just add water) or something like that.
<u><b>Conclusion</b></u>
You're probably wondering what I'm actually suggesting. So am I - I lost track somewhere along the way (anywhere but the face!) - I think the point is: the Aliens can have a Saboteur/Guerilla feel, while still expanding in a unique fashion, similar to but different from the power grid. By giving both sides extra abilities and advantages that only work while on their "home soil", you can make territory control an important and interesting part of game-play, more than just a way of getting resources. Finally by giving the factions a similar texture but a different flavour, you can keep the distinction while helping new players understand what they're supposed to be doing (nobody likes being a liability).
What do you think of my groovy flow-charts?
Comments
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This looks like endangering the distinctive feel of each of the teams, especially the Aliens', who have gone from being a collection of independent "Terrorist Cells" to a more organised force with a central command unit on whom they depend. Or have they?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to pick and skim, but I can't pass up the opportunity to use this as ammo. This a huge beef with me, and you'll encounter the inevitable "fanboi"s on here who staunchly proclaim "we have no right to criticize the devs until we try it first".
Well, if even a newcomer can see that parallel commanding is a step down from the more rewarding asymmetric strategy system of NS, I think that's telling. I understand these things take time/resources, but to the fanbois on here: stop trying to pass it off as an some sort of calculated improvement to gameplay of which we're just not privy. Call it what it is: a cop-out.
I think you've really put a pin on the concerns people are having. NS2 is going to be an entirely new game. It will have the same setting and characters but i really think the gameplay and the flow will be very different to NS1. Your fresh view on things, basically just an understanding of the mechanics of NS2, gives us a "clear" view of things. Something that us "fans" don't always see as we're too entangled in the business.
I don't think its a "cop-out", I don't think its a "calculated improvement to gameplay" neither. To me the focus will be on different things. In NS1 the fact that there was one commander and 3 hives was what made the game. I think that UWE wanted to get over that and make something else what this game will be. In NS2 what makes the teams different is their way of controlling the environment. As wilbefast very well pointed out.
Personally I'm welcoming these changes. To me its making this game more of what it's supposed to be: a fun rts/fps game anyone could enjoy.
I'm thinking there are a number of reasons for the change: inexperienced players are unlikely to take Command, meaning that the Commanders will be more experienced players, and it makes sense to take the responsibility away from the rank-and-file and give it to somebody who knows what they're doing. Then again this lack of central authority was the Aliens' "thing" in the first game. Trouble is it makes them a lot more complicated to play well as a team: nobody has an overview of the map and you have several builders running around at the same time, half of who may not know what they're doing.
Also it's easier on new players if the basic organisation is the same for both teams - so in a way it's about making things simpler for new recruits. As a hardcore gamer I'm willing to cope with a hard difficult curve but not everyone will be. Then again just because the two sides have common foundations, doesn't mean they'll nessecarily work exactly the same way - I was thinking that the "Infestation vs Power-Grid" mechanic could really make the two sides unique.
Another concern might be balance: it's hard enough to balance a game with distinctive factions if they use the <i>same</i> economy (Starcraft). But most importantly there are no set "Hive rooms" any more: each room can be either Marine- or Alien-controlled, so needs to have an equal value for both sides - this means that both sides must use the same resources (Tech-points and Resource-points). Say a Tech-point is a potential Hive: what's it worth to the Marines except denying the Aliens another Hive? I suppose that is value in itself, but it's an interesting point - how would you balance the game if there were multiple Hives and one Marine Commander? Do you guys have any ideas? I don't have time to think right now :-S