Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1743985:date=Dec 16 2009, 01:08 PM:name=Metro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Metro @ Dec 16 2009, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also - Spaceships in space would be best built as squares. Think of the Borg-cubes from Star-Trek :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was going to say that very same thing :D
Those Borg also have spaceship tuning down, Green neon lights with black exterior is the ######!
On a sidenote, "Dammit why won't my emissive texture be emissive :( "
It all looks great but it all seems to be really dark. I thought there was going be variation in the amount of lighting and environments like for example the artwork for the new biodome. Looks great though so far!
<!--quoteo(post=1743973:date=Dec 16 2009, 02:50 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Dec 16 2009, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An aircraft / boat / bullets possess curves in order to be aerodynamic while TRAVELING IN EARTHS ATMOSPHERE (air is a fluid like water... submarines have curves because they require to be aerodynamic in the ocean... notice many curved rooms in submarines, that aren't against the hull?). Vehicles can have curves just for the looks... not a very good example for use in argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although abit off topic I would like to point out that large commercial aircraft are giant tubes because they are essentially pressure vessels with wings. You will notice that aircraft that fly at lower altitudes are more box like rather than cylindrical. This is because there is less pressure differential and hence the designers can go with a more ideal shape (i.e. box) as its easier to fit something into a box than a cylinder.
I'm in conflict of emotions here: inspired, excited and happy to see such beautiful outputs of mapping, but ashamed and dejected that I've not been able to make anything nearly as good looking - at least not yet. Let the toying around continue...
Btw, I'm sure there's and Spark idea topic somewhere but I'll post a short one here now: could the combo boxes of rotation, shift and scale in the texture editor be color coded just like they're in the camera view (red, green, blue) and maybe change red or green since some people can't tell them apart?
<!--quoteo(post=1743969:date=Dec 16 2009, 03:14 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Dec 16 2009, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway... yes this are cool pictures of rooms. I'll go on a limb here and say people are just trying to create interesting geometry. Who's to say what an actual space ship would look like... i mean... just a few logical assumptions:
Lot of stuffs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right about those points.
But ....
1) Never forget that besides the optimization when making a building or vehicle, designers like to make it beautiful and thus they very often sacrifice efficiency for the glory of the beauty :) Look at Dubai for instance <a href="http://www.3ehabitat.fr/wp-content/gallery/panneau-solaire/village-vertical-solaire-de-dubai.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.3ehabitat.fr/wp-content/gallery...re-de-dubai.jpg</a> <a href="http://www.communique-de-presse.com/images/stories/com-presse/D/Dubai/dubai.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.communique-de-presse.com/images...Dubai/dubai.jpg</a> <a href="http://imgpe.trivago.com/uploadimages/46/79/4679323_l.jpeg" target="_blank">http://imgpe.trivago.com/uploadimages/46/79/4679323_l.jpeg</a> <a href="http://www.linternaute.com/savoir/magazine/photo/retrospective-zaha-hadid/image/tours-dansantes-dubai-234253.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.linternaute.com/savoir/magazine...ubai-234253.jpg</a>
2) When the architects build living places or work areas, they like to try to make it inspirational and a good place to live/work. It increase the moral of the people and their efficiency.
3) Pipes, cables and any dangerous things are behind panels to prevent accidents. It's about safety. But when the only persons that have access to the room are technician and workers, they avoid spending money on such thing (plus, they need to have an easy access to it). Look at the refinery, power plant, mines etc. <a href="http://theobservereffect.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/lhc_hall_1.jpg" target="_blank">http://theobservereffect.files.wordpress.c.../lhc_hall_1.jpg</a> <a href="http://atlas.ch/atlas_photos/selected-photos/lhc/lhc_gen_0706_001.jpg" target="_blank">http://atlas.ch/atlas_photos/selected-phot...en_0706_001.jpg</a> <a href="http://hpsweb.honeywell.com/NR/rdonlyres/288C5C29-233B-44DE-B3D8-26E47402940E/0/MOL_Refinery_Success1.jpg" target="_blank">http://hpsweb.honeywell.com/NR/rdonlyres/2...ry_Success1.jpg</a>
4) The most important : Maps needs to be credible, not realistic. When the real world is boring and ugly, take some freedom. Artistic licence rulz. (no too much though)
Btw, is there any way to access old blog posts? I'm finding it all but impossible to access old development posts (trying to dig up info from reveal posts that could be useful for mapmaking).. there's no way to access "older posts" under News, and the forum entries don't have links that point back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, just click "News Archives" in the lower-right or type in "reveal" in the Search field in the upper-right. Side note: this was pronounced as "Ar-CHIVES" (not onions, not shallots, but..."chives"!) by a certain member of the NS2 team...but who is it?
<!--quoteo(post=1744208:date=Dec 18 2009, 09:36 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Dec 18 2009, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep, just click "News Archives" in the lower-right or type in "reveal" in the Search field in the upper-right. Side note: this was pronounced as "Ar-CHIVES" (not onions, not shallots, but..."chives"!) by a certain member of the NS2 team...but who is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something to think about regarding the realism of the inside of spaceships:
When things are new and fresh, they are quite often very well organized. When the thing costs a metric s***-ton of money, it gets maintained impeccably. These screenshots, on the other hand, show the "built by the lowest bidder" derelict factories and ships that have seen little in the way of maintenance or initial engineering. The future won't be built entirely by the top engineers or architects. Once space travel becomes "an every day thing", you're going to have the cheap labour creating the foundation for it. I'd expect a factory to see numerous additions and retrofits over it's life time. The panels that keep the cabling tidy will be ditched for convenience, and the tidiness of the cabling itself will suffer from years of additions and deletions from amateurs and "people who learned how to do it differently". The darkness will come from long lasting lights that accumulate dust, and the dirtier the walls and ceiling, the less light they reflect. (Side note: I know of one old sawmill that turns its emergency lighting on in a couple of areas to brighten it up whenever people have to go in the area to do maintenance.) It really depends on the environment, but I'd expect a mining facility to get grungy after a decade or two of operation. The ships themselves could suffer the same fate, going port to port with the bare minimum crew, with safety and pride taking a backseat to the almighty operating cost.
That's not to say that both styles can't be done. I'd go so far to say that the old ns_eclipse/veil maps did work well as examples of "clean" maps. I'm not sure if the current set of textures could pull it off, but I think it'd be reasonable to assume that such a style will come down the road. The "new" areas would be less inviting to the aliens, but their value of securing would be higher.
<!--quoteo(post=1743926:date=Dec 15 2009, 06:33 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Dec 15 2009, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Needs more sexy screenshots and a sub forum for customization :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Grats to those featured. +1 for subforum.
Just wanted to say I'm really impressed with the screenshots shown (and wish my map was half as awesome, but ill learn eventually).
I'm surprised to see someone bashing windows7 in this thread though as I myself have had zero problems with the editor after a week of intensive usage. Hoping for another spark-update soon to give me more features, it keeps me going until the game is actually available for beta-testing:)
Spark works very well with: i7 920 4.2Ghz XFX Radeon ATI 5850 1GB Intel X25-M SSD.
<!--quoteo(post=1743969:date=Dec 15 2009, 11:14 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Dec 15 2009, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lmao ... windows 7 pwned j00!!111 :P [running win 7 ftw over here on desktop + laptop. My sister is still using an evaluation build refusing me installing a current version lmao]
Anyway... yes this are cool pictures of rooms. I'll go on a limb here and say people are just trying to create interesting geometry. Who's to say what an actual space ship would look like... i mean... just a few logical assumptions:
1. No curved areas... no curved halls.... no curved geometry... unless necessary for the rooms purpose... chamfered edges permitted. Reason: Curves = wasted space / material / money. A curved hall around some crazy cliff or rock structure or equipment is understandable.
2. Lighting? People are expected to walk through these areas right? Wouldn't it be a work hazard if anything... even emergency lighting... failed to light up the entire room? Naturally give the little skulks some hiding behind boxes or whatever... But a room shouldn't be so dark that 1 fade or a bunch of ONOS's could sneak up on you from the shadows!
3. Why so much use of dark / black colored walls and floors... I mean... Colors people!! google "plastic tiles"!!!:
4. As Loey correctly indicated, "there wouldnt be any exposed pipes or wires anywhere as they would be covered up by wall or floor panels".
Their might be engineering areas with large Mario brother type pipes, but for the most part no wires would be seen... all would be inside conduit pipes in the floor or overhead accessible behind wall/floor panels i.e. Star Trek TNG. Exceptions would be damaged areas of course. Also any equipment featuring wires... i.e. volt meters, oscilloscopes, welders, diagnostic equipment etc... your basic 10 jigawatt terra stranded pro power cord (battlestar galactica rope light), because wireless power transmission was not appropriate. And always remember... no USB wires lying around... this is the future ffs :P
5. Simplicity... Rooms with purpose... living quarters... bathrooms... game rooms... movie / holodecks... mess halls... labs... Medical rooms (storage for crates is not a good enough purpose imho :P) Anyone remember the movie "Sphere"? ... The distance from the main airlock to an elevator, which could lift you past miles and miles of pipes and machinery, to the cockpit room was about 70 ft at the max. This implies that while the ship itself was gigantically packed with thousands of floors and areas... that all the "important" rooms could be reached in no time at all... even if it took a 100mph elevator ride or 2 lol. The book actually described an area with sleep "tubes" with fossilized people inside. So it's pretty obvious that the areas in which people would actually need to traverse the ship is rather small... but still you could go venture off down miles of walkways... interesting design. Much like the world as we know it.
Tips: Google images of nuclear power plant rooms. They actually follow my design tips (except rule #4 on occasion... sometimes things get weird lol)
photo of inside skylab: <a href="http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/gallery/albums/userpics/manned/normal_skylab_inside.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/galle...ylab_inside.jpg</a>
More skylab (skylab is cool lol): <a href="http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/images/content/114654main_gallery_center12_med.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/images...enter12_med.jpg</a> I want a map that makes use of white walls and objects damnit! :P
------------
Btw cool looking rooms :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The situation is, the textures and props released so far are the mining and refinery sets. We don't have textures and props for space stations, or biodomes, or research facilities, or futuristic warships, or civilian quarters. The textures we have work well for mining rooms, for refining stations, for space hulks, but not for much else. That's why you don't see much stuff with colorful floors or walls and lots of raw materials, mobile light props, and wires and stuff. Because with mining equipment everything has to be mobile, and hence, has large wires that just kind of run around all over the floor.
When the new art sets are released the content the mappers create will start to have alot more creativity and represent alot more different situations and areas. As it stands, I think the work that has been done with the tools currently available is spectacular.
Comments
Was going to say that very same thing :D
Those Borg also have spaceship tuning down, Green neon lights with black exterior is the ######!
On a sidenote, "Dammit why won't my emissive texture be emissive :( "
Although abit off topic I would like to point out that large commercial aircraft are giant tubes because they are essentially pressure vessels with wings. You will notice that aircraft that fly at lower altitudes are more box like rather than cylindrical. This is because there is less pressure differential and hence the designers can go with a more ideal shape (i.e. box) as its easier to fit something into a box than a cylinder.
Btw, I'm sure there's and Spark idea topic somewhere but I'll post a short one here now: could the combo boxes of rotation, shift and scale in the texture editor be color coded just like they're in the camera view (red, green, blue) and maybe change red or green since some people can't tell them apart?
very discouraging.
Lot of stuffs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right about those points.
But ....
1) Never forget that besides the optimization when making a building or vehicle, designers like to make it beautiful and thus they very often sacrifice efficiency for the glory of the beauty :)
Look at Dubai for instance
<a href="http://www.3ehabitat.fr/wp-content/gallery/panneau-solaire/village-vertical-solaire-de-dubai.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.3ehabitat.fr/wp-content/gallery...re-de-dubai.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.communique-de-presse.com/images/stories/com-presse/D/Dubai/dubai.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.communique-de-presse.com/images...Dubai/dubai.jpg</a>
<a href="http://imgpe.trivago.com/uploadimages/46/79/4679323_l.jpeg" target="_blank">http://imgpe.trivago.com/uploadimages/46/79/4679323_l.jpeg</a>
<a href="http://www.linternaute.com/savoir/magazine/photo/retrospective-zaha-hadid/image/tours-dansantes-dubai-234253.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.linternaute.com/savoir/magazine...ubai-234253.jpg</a>
2) When the architects build living places or work areas, they like to try to make it inspirational and a good place to live/work. It increase the moral of the people and their efficiency.
3) Pipes, cables and any dangerous things are behind panels to prevent accidents. It's about safety. But when the only persons that have access to the room are technician and workers, they avoid spending money on such thing (plus, they need to have an easy access to it). Look at the refinery, power plant, mines etc.
<a href="http://theobservereffect.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/lhc_hall_1.jpg" target="_blank">http://theobservereffect.files.wordpress.c.../lhc_hall_1.jpg</a>
<a href="http://atlas.ch/atlas_photos/selected-photos/lhc/lhc_gen_0706_001.jpg" target="_blank">http://atlas.ch/atlas_photos/selected-phot...en_0706_001.jpg</a>
<a href="http://hpsweb.honeywell.com/NR/rdonlyres/288C5C29-233B-44DE-B3D8-26E47402940E/0/MOL_Refinery_Success1.jpg" target="_blank">http://hpsweb.honeywell.com/NR/rdonlyres/2...ry_Success1.jpg</a>
4) The most important : Maps needs to be credible, not realistic.
When the real world is boring and ugly, take some freedom. Artistic licence rulz. (no too much though)
Btw, is there any way to access old blog posts? I'm finding it all but impossible to access old development posts (trying to dig up info from reveal posts that could be useful for mapmaking).. there's no way to access "older posts" under News, and the forum entries don't have links that point back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, just click "News Archives" in the lower-right or type in "reveal" in the Search field in the upper-right. Side note: this was pronounced as "Ar-CHIVES" (not onions, not shallots, but..."chives"!) by a certain member of the NS2 team...but who is it?
money is on Regan.
When things are new and fresh, they are quite often very well organized. When the thing costs a metric s***-ton of money, it gets maintained impeccably. These screenshots, on the other hand, show the "built by the lowest bidder" derelict factories and ships that have seen little in the way of maintenance or initial engineering. The future won't be built entirely by the top engineers or architects. Once space travel becomes "an every day thing", you're going to have the cheap labour creating the foundation for it. I'd expect a factory to see numerous additions and retrofits over it's life time. The panels that keep the cabling tidy will be ditched for convenience, and the tidiness of the cabling itself will suffer from years of additions and deletions from amateurs and "people who learned how to do it differently". The darkness will come from long lasting lights that accumulate dust, and the dirtier the walls and ceiling, the less light they reflect. (Side note: I know of one old sawmill that turns its emergency lighting on in a couple of areas to brighten it up whenever people have to go in the area to do maintenance.) It really depends on the environment, but I'd expect a mining facility to get grungy after a decade or two of operation. The ships themselves could suffer the same fate, going port to port with the bare minimum crew, with safety and pride taking a backseat to the almighty operating cost.
That's not to say that both styles can't be done. I'd go so far to say that the old ns_eclipse/veil maps did work well as examples of "clean" maps. I'm not sure if the current set of textures could pull it off, but I think it'd be reasonable to assume that such a style will come down the road. The "new" areas would be less inviting to the aliens, but their value of securing would be higher.
I've missed a lot in my absence. (between work, 16hrs. at EKU, and socializing with friends & girls I have almost no free time)
Keep up the good work everybody!
:)
I'm surprised to see someone bashing windows7 in this thread though as I myself have had zero problems with the editor after a week of intensive usage.
Hoping for another spark-update soon to give me more features, it keeps me going until the game is actually available for beta-testing:)
Spark works very well with:
i7 920 4.2Ghz
XFX Radeon ATI 5850 1GB
Intel X25-M SSD.
Anyway... yes this are cool pictures of rooms. I'll go on a limb here and say people are just trying to create interesting geometry. Who's to say what an actual space ship would look like... i mean... just a few logical assumptions:
1. No curved areas... no curved halls.... no curved geometry... unless necessary for the rooms purpose... chamfered edges permitted. Reason: Curves = wasted space / material / money. A curved hall around some crazy cliff or rock structure or equipment is understandable.
2. Lighting? People are expected to walk through these areas right? Wouldn't it be a work hazard if anything... even emergency lighting... failed to light up the entire room? Naturally give the little skulks some hiding behind boxes or whatever... But a room shouldn't be so dark that 1 fade or a bunch of ONOS's could sneak up on you from the shadows!
3. Why so much use of dark / black colored walls and floors... I mean... Colors people!! google "plastic tiles"!!!:
<a href="http://www.allmats.com/members/439205/uploaded/ChannelTile.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.allmats.com/members/439205/uplo...ChannelTile.jpg</a>
<a href="http://products.construction.com/swts_content_files/1405/E34506.jpg" target="_blank">http://products.construction.com/swts_cont...1405/E34506.jpg</a>
4. As Loey correctly indicated, "there wouldnt be any exposed pipes or wires anywhere as they would be covered up by wall or floor panels".
Their might be engineering areas with large Mario brother type pipes, but for the most part no wires would be seen... all would be inside conduit pipes in the floor or overhead accessible behind wall/floor panels i.e. Star Trek TNG. Exceptions would be damaged areas of course. Also any equipment featuring wires... i.e. volt meters, oscilloscopes, welders, diagnostic equipment etc... your basic 10 jigawatt terra stranded pro power cord (battlestar galactica rope light), because wireless power transmission was not appropriate. And always remember... no USB wires lying around... this is the future ffs :P
5. Simplicity... Rooms with purpose... living quarters... bathrooms... game rooms... movie / holodecks... mess halls... labs... Medical rooms (storage for crates is not a good enough purpose imho :P) Anyone remember the movie "Sphere"? ... The distance from the main airlock to an elevator, which could lift you past miles and miles of pipes and machinery, to the cockpit room was about 70 ft at the max. This implies that while the ship itself was gigantically packed with thousands of floors and areas... that all the "important" rooms could be reached in no time at all... even if it took a 100mph elevator ride or 2 lol. The book actually described an area with sleep "tubes" with fossilized people inside. So it's pretty obvious that the areas in which people would actually need to traverse the ship is rather small... but still you could go venture off down miles of walkways... interesting design. Much like the world as we know it.
Tips: Google images of nuclear power plant rooms. They actually follow my design tips (except rule #4 on occasion... sometimes things get weird lol)
<a href="http://australianmuseum.net.au/Uploads/Images/6154/T12.6a%20nuclear_big.jpg" target="_blank">http://australianmuseum.net.au/Uploads/Ima...nuclear_big.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.vattenfall.com/cs-reports/img/small/forsmark_560.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.vattenfall.com/cs-reports/img/s...orsmark_560.jpg</a>
<a href="http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0704/iran_nukes0410.jpg" target="_blank">http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/070...n_nukes0410.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.yuccamountain.org/cal03.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.yuccamountain.org/cal03.jpg</a>
<a href="http://hackedgadgets.com/2009/05/03/russian-nuclear-power-plant-control-room/" target="_blank">http://hackedgadgets.com/2009/05/03/russia...t-control-room/</a>
photo of inside skylab: <a href="http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/gallery/albums/userpics/manned/normal_skylab_inside.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/galle...ylab_inside.jpg</a>
More skylab (skylab is cool lol): <a href="http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/images/content/114654main_gallery_center12_med.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/images...enter12_med.jpg</a>
I want a map that makes use of white walls and objects damnit! :P
------------
Btw cool looking rooms :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The situation is, the textures and props released so far are the mining and refinery sets. We don't have textures and props for space stations, or biodomes, or research facilities, or futuristic warships, or civilian quarters. The textures we have work well for mining rooms, for refining stations, for space hulks, but not for much else. That's why you don't see much stuff with colorful floors or walls and lots of raw materials, mobile light props, and wires and stuff. Because with mining equipment everything has to be mobile, and hence, has large wires that just kind of run around all over the floor.
When the new art sets are released the content the mappers create will start to have alot more creativity and represent alot more different situations and areas. As it stands, I think the work that has been done with the tools currently available is spectacular.