Marines Moving Base To A Hive
nthing
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3091Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3091Members
<div class="IPBDescription">= Good idea</div> I've just played a game as aliens with a pretty darn good commander on the marine side (can't remember his name <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> sorry) and about 10 minutes into the game some teammates shouted "We have taken out thier command console! haha!" so were all thinking, "Great! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->"
I happen to stoll upon the marine base and notice that there is no marines there at all, or marine structures... all that was thier now is alien turrets and defense chambers... previous to this I thought that the aliens on my team had somehow gotton past the defense in the marine base and chomped thier console, yet the marines would still spawn there... it was then that it stuck me that they must have reloacated the base, because they are still spawning and some of em are getting armour and weapons, so they must have another CC somewhere too...
Later on in the game it's revealed that they have set up a new base in an Alien Hive location... which made me think... that's a bloody good idea and I think all commanders should opt to do this as soon as possible (instead of simply building phase gates there and back), recycling thier stuctures in thier first base to build new base in a captured hive...
The advantage is that they cannot completly overrun your base with onos and bile bombs and the all annoying spores anymore, because the only way to do that would be to own three hives, and if they secured three hives then all the marines would be dead anyway so there isn't much point in building the third hive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I might sound stupid <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> lol, but I just think it was a clever commander to do so... it was a very long and tough battle and they almost caputured our second hive at times... we managed to fight them back to thier hive base in the end and that was the longest part of the game... the only thing we had to attack wiith was acid rockets and the lerks umbra.. and it was only possible to own 2 towers too, defensive and movement...
If the marines had kept thier base up where they all start, then when we fought them back up there, gorges would have the ample opportunity to build third hive and defend it and then we woulda completly trampled on them with our onos! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> lol
I happen to stoll upon the marine base and notice that there is no marines there at all, or marine structures... all that was thier now is alien turrets and defense chambers... previous to this I thought that the aliens on my team had somehow gotton past the defense in the marine base and chomped thier console, yet the marines would still spawn there... it was then that it stuck me that they must have reloacated the base, because they are still spawning and some of em are getting armour and weapons, so they must have another CC somewhere too...
Later on in the game it's revealed that they have set up a new base in an Alien Hive location... which made me think... that's a bloody good idea and I think all commanders should opt to do this as soon as possible (instead of simply building phase gates there and back), recycling thier stuctures in thier first base to build new base in a captured hive...
The advantage is that they cannot completly overrun your base with onos and bile bombs and the all annoying spores anymore, because the only way to do that would be to own three hives, and if they secured three hives then all the marines would be dead anyway so there isn't much point in building the third hive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I might sound stupid <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> lol, but I just think it was a clever commander to do so... it was a very long and tough battle and they almost caputured our second hive at times... we managed to fight them back to thier hive base in the end and that was the longest part of the game... the only thing we had to attack wiith was acid rockets and the lerks umbra.. and it was only possible to own 2 towers too, defensive and movement...
If the marines had kept thier base up where they all start, then when we fought them back up there, gorges would have the ample opportunity to build third hive and defend it and then we woulda completly trampled on them with our onos! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> lol
Comments
Actually, I haven't been in a ton of games where the commander built a new base at a hive and recycled everything at the original base, have you?
it was eclipse, he built a new CC and everything in the eclipse hive. then we all went out together to comp core and destroyed their only hive. it was a quick game.
Yeah, we won.
Marine: "Hey Commander, let's relocate our base to an empty hive."
Commander: "That's stupid, it never works."
Marine: "What makes you say that?"
Commander: "I never see any other commanders do it."
First you have the alien hive patrols, which is the first thing I do after rushing the marine base. If an alien finds marines in a hive, you can expect every alien to come pouring down on you.
Getting there is also a problem, as everyone knows the first minute of the game is dedicated to the skulk rush. And other smarter skulks waiting to ambush marines as they start to expand.
The third problem is the resources to build this second base. In order to have a new base, you have to build redundant and costly structures like the command console. At the start, you'll only have one nozzle so after you've built all that the resources come in at a trickle and the aliens will still be knocking on your door. Recycling everything in base will give you some extra resources, but not as much as a whole nozzle constantly giving you extra resources.
A good commander will keep the original marine base, since they usually come with a nozzle, and are easily defended. Even if you do relocate main operations to the hive, the other base can be a decoy and a backup base all at once, drawing some alien attacks that way and allowing you to come back from a defeat at the hive.
I think it's a better idea to keep TWO bases. One the main command center area where players spawn, and one hive that has a resource tower. Since the enemy hive is such an important area, my marines (when I'm commander) usually gathers near the enemy hive and my main base area.
This is a BETTER tactic since you get double resources, and double the area the aliens need to cover.
I can't stress enough how much a good coverage of the resources are for marines in this game. And since hives are such a high priority areas, Marines tend to help defend it more so than isolated resource nodes. This is how I do it most of the time. Make TWO BASES.... unless you are in a game with a few people.
Quite true... It's just a futile attempt when I yell "DON'T ATTCK ALIENS. JUST DEFEND" at my troops... I think the turtling tactic is best for marines.... Defend bases and resources at full strength, then assemble an attack force using Heavy Armor and make Siege turrets. That's the most guaranteed tactic to work IF MARINE LISTEN TO YOU.
I think this "marine rush" is a BS tactic that often eradicates the marines if it fails... It's too bad that the minimap interface is so faulty and lag disrupts commandeering. otherwise, the classical turtling tactic worked best for me.
but thats the whole point... marines tend to fall back to the place they spawned because they feel that it is thier base and somewhere they can go that is safe...
I think it is important that the marines spawn in hive at least.. and have comm chair in hive... maybe not recycle everything in original base, your right that is stupid, but rather convert the original base into a mini base with just turrets ect defending the res nozzle like any other res nozzle...
That way the marines would fall back to the hive location when under attack and this would be alot better as then the aliens dont have anything powerfull to attack your base with...
No constant stream of spore gas to deal with, no uber powerfull bile bombs bursting all around you as you spawn, no onos charging throughout your base trampling on anything which gets in thier way...
just puny fades stood at the doors shooting acid rockets <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> who, may I add, are limited to only two upgrades...
but thats the whole point... marines tend to fall back to the place they spawned because they feel that it is thier base and somewhere they can go that is safe...
I think it is important that the marines spawn in hive at least.. and have comm chair in hive... maybe not recycle everything in original base, your right that is stupid, but rather convert the original base into a mini base with just turrets ect defending the res nozzle like any other res nozzle...
That way the marines would fall back to the hive location when under attack and this would be alot better as then the aliens dont have anything powerfull to attack your base with...
No constant stream of spore gas to deal with, no uber powerfull bile bombs bursting all around you as you spawn, no onos charging throughout your base trampling on anything which gets in thier way...
just puny fades stood at the doors shooting acid rockets <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> who, may I add, are limited to only two upgrades...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, but you are not understanding the fact that the starting point is a great place to defend a resource node you got there.
Resources are ESSENTIAL, and the starting point has a resource nozzel ready to be defended. Besides, the maps are made so that those starting resource towers are easy to defend.
When I control 2 bases of my initial base and a hive with a resource nozzle (which is very important... you need RESOURCES), marines feel the need to protect them more urgent and critical.
Then if the game drags on, I usually drop a few HMG/Heavy Armor to my troops and see them slowly wiping out the Aliens. Or if I get enough money, I assemble them all and have them siege the aliens to death. It works like a charm. I don't think controlling individual resource areas is a great idea because marines keep abandoning them. Although they usually do an okay job of doing so, I think the starting point is the easiest place to defend a resource tower. And that's why it's essential to me atleast...
Resources are ESSENTIAL, and the starting point has a resource nozzel ready to be defended. Besides, the maps are made so that those starting resource towers are easy to defend.
When I control 2 bases of my initial base and a hive with a resource nozzle (which is very important... you need RESOURCES), marines feel the need to protect them more urgent and critical.
Then if the game drags on, I usually drop a few HMG/Heavy Armor to my troops and see them slowly wiping out the Aliens. Or if I get enough money, I assemble them all and have them siege the aliens to death. It works like a charm. I don't think controlling individual resource areas is a great idea because marines keep abandoning them. Although they usually do an okay job of doing so, I think the starting point is the easiest place to defend a resource tower. And that's why it's essential to me atleast...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you entirely mate... I'm just thinking that once you secure the hive and get the res point there and it's all nice and defended with turrets ect that the commanders should build another CC there and two more spawn points... then recylce the ones at original base (or maybe even keep them and allow marines to spawn in different places around the map, I've never seen that happen in a game, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt if both bases are well defended) and maybe build phase gates between the two...
It's still keeping your same tactic of making two bases and securing both res nozzles, just sort of swapping the two points around and making the captured hive the base and the original base a resource point to defend..
It also depends on the map, as the map I was playing on was ns_eclipse and the hive that they took was the one with the laddered platform area directly underneath the hive (forgot it's name)... and I think that this was easier to defend than the original marine base as it is a very versitile area... they built the spawn points right at the bottom and the comm chair underneath the hive... I was the person who found the spawn points as no one else checked down there for some reason...
Maybe one of you guys had me as commander, it was on Genmay server. My name was AzNtoccata. I must say, I r uber commander =)
But If you get HA/HMGs quickly enough, and a siege turret or 2 to defend that hive, and have a couple HMG/welder/HA guys in there permanently defending, and you're keeping them healed, it can work like a charm... While the rest of your team sieges their other 2 hives.
I've seen this strategy work both ways an almost even number of times, though.
But If you get HA/HMGs quickly enough, and a siege turret or 2 to defend that hive, and have a couple HMG/welder/HA guys in there permanently defending, and you're keeping them healed, it can work like a charm... While the rest of your team sieges their other 2 hives.
I've seen this strategy work both ways an almost even number of times, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heavy kharaa defense means very little. Most of the time it only means an extra minute of sieging or a few extra clips of ammo dropped on the marines.
Also, not all hives are hard to defend. On eclipse, all the hives only have 2 entrances. Fusion reactor on god knows what map has only 2 routes into it, Generator hive has only two routes into it...
It means a lot when all you have is light armors trying to set up sieges while they're getting melted by fades. What I'm saying is, before you have sieges, those hives are going to be a **obscenity** to bring down. When you do have sieges, they'll be a **obscenity** to set up and keep maintained.
I believe that most intermediate commanders will cherish their own default "main base" since it is already set up with a CC and resource tower. It is also made to be easily defended and all marines are starting there anyway. I personally don't understand why so many frontiersmen value their orginal base as if its their own home. It is just a recommended starting point and can easily be changed if you know what to do.
An example would be Ns_Eclipse. Many if not all maps are riddled with vents but not Eclipse. Eclipse has only 3 vents and don't branch out as many others do. There are no vents leading into the marine default base and only have 2 automatic doors. The single resourse tower is located near the doors but usually unharmed from alien ranged weapons. The CC is located a pretty far distance back with a narrow chokepoint leading to it. It has many small hallways and 2 hives are extremely closeby each other (Computer Core Hive and Maintance) while Eclipse Command will be vulnerable to marine exposure if it wasn't your starting hive.
I believe that completely re-locating the marine base to a Hive is usually unneeded and a waste of resourses on the commanders part. Since the orginal base is easy to defend and as others stated before, as a second base to fall back to and to spread the pressure of alien assaults. The orginal base doesn't have anything the hive doesn't have....nothing extra except a much more higher request for it by aliens. It will be under constant attack since aliens would like to claim it due to its importance and key role. So having and maybe even re-locating to a hive is important but keeping two bases is even better if you know how to do it good. Why recycle the main base if you have a good commander that can efficently maintain both?
Whenever I'm Kharaa on Eclipse, I find it quite easy to gain all 3 hives and then break the turtling marines base with Onos. Once any base is turtled in and is their last position with all aliens concentrating on it...its gone. But if I'm on Marines on Eclipse, I usually find myself under the command of a commander who can't expand properly, have enough knowlegde on how to seige a hive, research or simply give a med pack within 5 minutes. What I would do if commander and knew the Eclipse Command was not their orginal hive would be to have only 1-2 marines be greasemonkeys/border patrol for the main base while ALL availble marines immediately rush to Eclipse Command. Orginal base will be mainly composed of turrets, mines, a Phase Gate, and possibly IF's and an Armory if we don't have a steady feeling of Eclipse Command. And since I'm not completely relocating the base, I won't build a CC but will have the basic Marine base structures. I will build 2 IF's (so that respawning Marines will maintain and act as Eclipse Command was main base. Also, get a Observatory up along with Phase Gates so travel will be faster between the two newly abstablished bases. I will have a very low count on turrets (since Marines are more effective) at both bases until I get a steady flow of resources. Once I have MT and the bases are fairly established enough that my Marines can leave for an offensive....I will give waypoints if needed to the nearest strategic point to advance to a hive. If I do this quickly enough along with a highly cooperative Marine team, we can get this done rather quickly and they will be extremely low on Fades if they even have any. Huge weapons are not needed this early in the game and capping RT's will lead to slow progress, give away our positions, and we aren't doing much with resources anyway. Launch an offensive on the 2nd hive and seige if needed. I would have given away at least 2 shotguns by now to players i reconize as "good" and will assure firepower protection. The hive should have dropped and we should be on the way to building up the hive as a "organized turret farm" and not a main base. The most it will have is a Phase Gate and RT. Start capping more towers now since they only have skulks and don't over turret them. The flow of resources should be good enough that you get the upgrade structures up. Research and distribute bigger guns and HA/JP while keeping the pressure on the last hive. HMGed HA Marines are deadly if used properly in teamwork and the hive should fall then pick off the remaining aliens if the 1.03 thing didn't already.
WARNING: This is just my basic overview of what a good marine team will do to an average alien team. Never under-estimate the Kharaa since they usually own if the marines are lacking either bad teamwork, cooperation, commander or something of that sort. Expert aliens will just give up a great fight or own you back.
TO ALL MARINES!
Just make sure you cover each other espesically the builders (building slower is better then dying and losing the structure itself), stick together, and most of all....obey orders. A good commander is nothing without his Marines and marines are nothing without a commander. Both rely majorly on each other so if you expect something...you better have done your part to recieve it. This is the main reason aliens win so much, teamwork isn't needed as much as Marines does so if anything is lacked in Marines....expect a dinner.
Another game on Hera we were losing spawn so I build my CC in the big vent at the ventilation hive. Got some spawns in there too. It was incredibly cramped with turrets at either of the elbow shaped vent, along with the arms lab, proto lab, armory and phase gate. The aliens were amazed at the amount of stuff we crammed in there. We ended up taking a second hive and the server crashed before we could finish the game.
In the end, I think the best strategy is to build the CC only if your spawn is going to die and if you have a well defended hive. I also don't think there's much point in building a CC in anywhere but a hive either as most resource points are poor places to keep up a defense.
That's 16 onoses, 8 comming out of each door.(16/16)
We stood no chance.
Never the less, the "relocate the marine base into another hive" technique is fairly effective.
Of course I prefer Aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, I haven't been in a ton of games where the commander built a new base at a hive and recycled everything at the original base, have you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.