This is the kind of stupid / weird small things <b>killing the greatness of NS as a whole</b>. You are doing it wrong. <b>A knife is 1000x useful under whatever conditions</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh <i>shut up</i>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The dual head design of a fire axe allows firefighters to carry one tool instead of two. Using a fire axe, they can cut down doors, quickly pry off trim and door jams, and lever away material like sheetrock and paneled ceiling tiles. Some fire axes are also designed to cut through electrical wires or to cut off gas, although these features may drive up the cost of the axe. Fire axes can also be used to quickly gain access to vehicles and perform other tasks which a fireman might need to do. The design of the axe is intended to promote safe, rapid, and efficient extrication of people and goods from fires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you should go market your 'fire knife' to rescue crews because it's more useful under WHATEVER CONDITIONS. <b>1000x MORE USEFUL</b>.
Yes, a knife is 1000x more useful under whatever conditions, if your only condition is John Rambo running around in the woods.
<!--quoteo(post=1737587:date=Nov 14 2009, 07:27 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 14 2009, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guess you go better tell all firefighters that an axe is better than a knife.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Axes are great for breaking down WOODEN DOORS. Not alot of those on a SPACE STATION.
<!--quoteo(post=1737588:date=Nov 14 2009, 07:32 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 14 2009, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Axes are great for breaking down WOODEN DOORS. Not alot of those on a SPACE STATION.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can bust through more than wood with a fire axe, which is why they use them, dingus. The entire point of the pick end and some more modern ones have a prybar in the handle is so you can mangle and bust through metal doors, be it an elevator or a car. In every situation an axe is useful, a knife would not be useful, thus negating that moron's "point" that a knife is somehow more useful than an axe.
What, are you going to use your knife to whittle some ###### spears out of branches on the space station too?
Knife/axe "debating" aside, I have to say that if I were to engage melee combat with something that was 95% teeth spikes and claws, I'd probably want as much range as possible.
Nothing like ramming your knife arm-deep into a writhing mass of pointed razors.
Also, the TSA are specifically called in to deal with "incidents," they aren't boy scouts.
Personal opinion being that the TSA logo isn't exactly a gunblade being put aside...
I think if a gunblade/machete combo were to be something more closer to an actual machete as far as length and such goes, but the "gun" portion branching up the blade past the hilt, being on the side of the blade opposed to top/bottom [allowing curavture to the blade].
But then the question is, since we are getting a pistol what exactly would the gunblade shoot?
<!--quoteo(post=1737640:date=Nov 14 2009, 11:01 PM:name=MrWizard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrWizard @ Nov 14 2009, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think if a gunblade/machete combo were to be something more closer to an actual machete as far as length and such goes, but the "gun" portion branching up the blade past the hilt, being on the side of the blade opposed to top/bottom [allowing curavture to the blade]. But then the question is, since we are getting a pistol what exactly would the gunblade shoot?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally, a useful reply to my thread!!!!!!!! I didn't think it was going to happen!!!!
Mr. Wizard, I think we are more or less on the same page. I've given some thought to "pistol vs melee" and I've concluded either A) it's the same weapon, there's just a slight deploy time to switch as the grip of the gun is adjusted for slashing versus aiming, or B) the gunblade is more of a close-range scattershot than the pistol, with the additional brutal machete slash attack for melee. Thoughts?
The more I think about it, the more I think the machete might not work out so well.
With regular pistol ammo perhaps it could work fine either the muzzle being on a side of the blade or on the bottom... that marine HUD + nanites can explain the aiming ;)
With a scatter-shot there are some quirks that would have to be worked out. For instance: If the muzzle is on the side of the blade, we could conclude that the blade could block/ricochet the scatter-shot [nanites/improved metallurgy can account for little/no damage to the blade]. This, however, creates a side that is much safer for an alien to attack the marine opposed to the other side [speaking in Right/Left terms]. It would/could intensify gameplay for both sides.
I think the idea of the muzzle being on the bottom would be horrific... but I may be partially biased due to owning a very equipped and expensive knife set and I cringe at the thought of damaging the edge of a blade. On the top however, I'm honestly indifferent as the spine is typically a bit thicker and you aren't cutting things with it.
What if we took something from both sides though. You have proposed a type of gunblade. There is a 2sec switch-axe in the game. Not knowing what this switch-axe looks like/how the animations are, my idea can't really branch too far off of it. Let us, however, take an axe.... a Tabar zin to be precise. It's got a handle with an axe head. Only one side actually has a cutting edge, the other from what I've seen is more of a flat, hammer-like surface. Take this, make part of the handle the barrel and the very end the muzzle. We can add an end-knob for purposes of ammo storage and the older use so that it is less likely to slip out of one's hand.
A reasonable combination of the both, but I'm going to browse around at blade types and ponder some other mechanism.
Ah! Another idea... it is on that phosphorus level... though slightly different. Being in the dark about how exactly the siege turrets will be controlled [and with this, assuming they are controlled by the/a Com] what if the fired projectile was more of an indicator notifying them that such a building is a siege priority...
Alright onto this axe bit.. I think this could be a really cool weapon. An axe easily has more reach than a knife that is small-ish to the level of not being a short sword. And a fold-axe? Sweet.
Now is this fold just a delay to bring the weapon out like a switchblade? or does it serve an additional purpose as it is folded up? Because I was thinkin' about this book that I read.
One of the weapons was a knife that had a hollow blade and when stabbed into somebody a button allowed you to deliver a burst of compressed liquid nitrogen into their body, freezing their internal organs instantly. Now this only serves to inspire, because I know you guys were talking about the taser-type weapon. Maybe in its folded state it could function as a minor stun or incapacitation device either at close range or far. I'm sure the design could be complemented for the features with a little bit of dedication ;)
Or has the second weapon function already been discussed/created..?
I think the reason that I'm much more partial to the axe rather than any kind of other blade is because it has a kind of barbaric nature to it that I think makes a really cool narrative juxtaposition. Even the technologically advanced marines retain some of their primal nature against the very low tech alien invaders. The axe embodies that pretty well in my opinion.
end of discussion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> why has this thread even progressed past this point? it's standard issue gun, standard issue knife. not standard issue punch standard issue tomahawk.
I would rather if the "Axe" looked more like a rescue/entry/prying tool... something for busting through plastic space station doors... to save people rather then a gimmicky weapon JUST FOR KILLING THINGS... give me a brake... i'd rather have 9 more magazines then a freekin battle axe IMHO.
An axe can be used as knife as well if it's blade is sharpened, but yes, its primary role is more crushing than cutting or piercing - like a sharp hammer, lol.
<!--quoteo(post=1737721:date=Nov 15 2009, 04:48 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 15 2009, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the reason that I'm much more partial to the axe rather than any kind of other blade is because it has a kind of barbaric nature to it that I think makes a really cool narrative juxtaposition. Even the technologically advanced marines retain some of their primal nature against the very low tech alien invaders. The axe embodies that pretty well in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A rescue / utility axe, as I've been parading around in these threads, makes more sense for the marines to have, but it doesn't sound very practical as a weapon. The one area a knife shines is that it can be used in close quarters, an axe requires room to swing.
However ultimately vs. the aliens I don't think a knife would be terribly useful. Knives just aren't that deadly. Whenever there's a stabbing homicide, the victim usually has twenty plus stab wounds. When an axe is involved it's a whack or two and that's it. Axes slice tissue, smash bone, and cause major tissue disruption. Aliens are bristling with piss and hate and are armored with bone plating, an axe would smash through that, a knife would just glance off and anger it more.
because stabbing homicides are performed by trained marines. fail harder. go down to your local recruitment office and talk to the hand-to-hand combat specialist. Ask him why the knife has been standard military issue for over a century. oh what's that? suddenly reality no longer conforms to your expectations, you want to use fiction? go watch starship troopers.
If you're up against an alien creature with a completely unmapped circulatory system with bony spurs and dermal plates, I'd think it's a bit different. Given all their other capabilities there's no reason the Kharaa would even <b>have</b> a nice carotid artery handy, and some of them have got quadruple the number of knives.
I'm not against a knife (or perhaps some sort of vibroblade), but trying to draw from real-life on this one meets the hurdle that it's a tool designed in terms of length and heft that is designed to be used against <b>human</b> anatomy. (Well, besides the obvious utility purposes.)
<!--quoteo(post=1737901:date=Nov 16 2009, 09:55 PM:name=Terr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terr @ Nov 16 2009, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're up against an alien creature with a completely unmapped circulatory system with bony spurs and dermal plates, I'd think it's a bit different. Given all their other capabilities there's no reason the Kharaa would even <b>have</b> a nice carotid artery handy, and some of them have got quadruple the number of knives.
I'm not against a knife (or perhaps some sort of vibroblade), but trying to draw from real-life on this one meets the hurdle that it's a tool designed in terms of length and heft that is designed to be used against <b>human</b> anatomy. (Well, besides the obvious utility purposes.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1737900:date=Nov 16 2009, 09:52 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Nov 16 2009, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because stabbing homicides are performed by trained marines. fail harder. go down to your local recruitment office and talk to the hand-to-hand combat specialist. Ask him why the knife has been standard military issue for over a century. <u><b>oh what's that? suddenly reality no longer conforms to your expectations, you want to use fiction? go watch starship troopers.</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1737900:date=Nov 17 2009, 01:52 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Nov 17 2009, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh what's that? suddenly reality no longer conforms to your expectations, you want to use fiction? go watch starship troopers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm confused. You just countered yourself... NS is a fiction game and pulls much of its inspiration from fiction, including Starship Troopers.
I'm also confused, because both of your arguments ("real marines use knives") and ("look at starship troopers fiction") validate the point I already made.
In the ST movie scene, it's still about attacking <b>human</b> hands, because AFAIK by that point they don't know about any "intelligent" bugs who would even have buttons to push, so it can't possibly be a reference to disabling one of their six limbs. In the <b>book</b> they use a "knife beam" weapon, and the knife-scene goes quite differently with a philosophical explanation of why they <b>train</b> with knives, rather than how you would ever actually use one on a bug.
As a practical matter in both reality and science fiction, nobody would be issued a plain metal knife as their "real" melee weapon when dealing with towering alien monstrosities.
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
Interesting observation; the same point(s) are being made and repeated over and over. Tell me if I got this right:
1) There's the Axe; Pro's: - Heavier impact damage. - Variation from the standard-issue knife. - Perhaps usable in terms of game-mechanics as well, as opposed to just combat.
Cons - Not as versatile in combat.
2) Then there's the standard knife; Pro's: - Versatile - It's used in real life in the army (in my opinion, an invalid argument. Real life is hardly a standard for fictional aliens). - It's quick, slicing, stabbing etc.
Cons: - Little damage compared to an axe. - Less armor penetration.
3) Finally, the topic starter's idea, the gunblade; Pro's: - Very different from the standard weapons. - Graphically more impressive. - Combined weapon, both melee and ranged.
Cons: - Doesn't neccesarily fit the game (it's more of a cyberpunk weapon). - Not very likely to be effective - Same problems as knives.
---
So, I'd conclude that UWE made the right decision - the axe is the better contender in this "race".
<!--quoteo(post=1737926:date=Nov 17 2009, 04:01 AM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Nov 17 2009, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell me if I got this right:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if an opinion can be definitively called "right," especially when others disagree with your opinion, but leaving that aside - this has been said a couple times and I still don't quite get it - how can the gunblade "not fit in the game" stylistically, given that <i>it is depicted in the game's logo?</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1737931:date=Nov 16 2009, 09:29 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 16 2009, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how can the gunblade "not fit in the game" stylistically, given that <i>it is depicted in the game's logo?</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tell you what, let's look at the US Army's seal. Not the star they use in marketing materials and TV slots, but the official one. Here's a <a href="http://www.army.mil/symbols/Downloads/ArmySealHigh.jpg" target="_blank">large picture</a>.
<ul><li>Cannonballs</li><li>A musket</li><li>A sword</li><li>A drumset</li><li>A pike</li><li>An archaic suit of armor</li></ul> None of which you'll probably find in active use on the battlefield, yet are still institutional symbols. Similarly, there's no reason that a sword/gun/wings have to be in-game in order to be the TSA/Frontiersman set of symbols.
good point. however does not support the contention that the gunblade belongs in a different genre (i.e. cyberpunk, anime) when it already exists in the fiction (granted, as a historical weapon).
<!--quoteo(post=1737912:date=Nov 16 2009, 10:24 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Nov 16 2009, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm confused. You just countered yourself... NS is a fiction game and pulls much of its inspiration from fiction, including Starship Troopers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> precisely. and like ST they use combat knives and ballistic weaponry, not axes or pulse laser rifles. this isn't about what's fit for killing aliens, it's about what's fit for the genre. "oh but knives aren't good against aliens" - you fail to see the point. If optimized-alien-killing were the focus, there wouldn't ballistic weaponry, they'd have carapace-melting lasers instead. It's not about reality, fiction, or hypothetics; it's a genre design - these are mid/dirty-tech marines with ballistic-weaponry best complemented by the combat knife - they're the army of today cast tomorrow. They're not some all-purpose rescue rangers or firemen nor do they hail from super-tech society.
What needs to be considered here, first and foremost, is genre-breaking. There are many weapons that fit into the dirty-tech humanized 'space marine' genre (like the "knife beam"), but an axe is not one of them. So rather than go on about how impractical an axe is and the fact that you'd have an easier time pulling Excalibur from its stone than an axe lodged into an alien's hide, suffice to say: it's genre-breaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1737943:date=Nov 16 2009, 11:48 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Nov 16 2009, 11:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->precisely. and like ST they use combat knives and ballistic weaponry, not axes or pulse laser rifles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody's arguing that <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KineticWeaponsAreJustBetter" target="_blank">kinetic weapons are bad</a>, but as I've said the emphasis on knives, specifically, is out of place versus the ST book. Even in the expletive-deleted movie adaptation, the knife scene is based around the assumption of a human opponent.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If optimized-alien-killing were the focus, there wouldn't ballistic weaponry, they'd have carapace-melting lasers instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, it's not certain that a "carapace-melting laser" would be any more effective than ballistic weaponry. There's nowhere near enough technical data on the game world to make that kind of determination.
Second, That would work for NS1, but presumably NS2 is a "few years" after the original encounters, enough so that they've realized something a bit different may be more effective against their only expected opposition.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nor do they hail from super-tech society.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Teleportation, FTL travel, personal jetpacks, and programmable nanomaterials... Yeah :P
There are at least three possibilities to counter the statement that knives are excrescent.
<ul><li>vibroblade already mentioned, microvibrations at a frequency close to the speed of sound or even faster</li><li>plasmaedge a magnetic field on the edge keeps superheated gas in place and anything entering the field is broken apart by the incredible hot gas. can also cause rad-poisoning since plasma is made up of ionized atoms and can emit electron radition</li><li>monofilament edges made up from exactly one atom, can cut molecules - this one is highly theoreticall i think, i dont know of any real life examples for today</li></ul>
of course, it could be used on an axe as well, but it'd be stupid since you don't need to swing the weapon around like a homicide as it goes through anything like the literal hot knive through butter anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1737826:date=Nov 16 2009, 02:33 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 16 2009, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A rescue / utility axe, as I've been parading around in these threads, makes more sense for the marines to have, but it doesn't sound very practical as a weapon. The one area a knife shines is that it can be used in close quarters, an axe requires room to swing.
However ultimately vs. the aliens I don't think a knife would be terribly useful. Knives just aren't that deadly. Whenever there's a stabbing homicide, the victim usually has twenty plus stab wounds. When an axe is involved it's a whack or two and that's it. Axes slice tissue, smash bone, and cause major tissue disruption. Aliens are bristling with piss and hate and are armored with bone plating, an axe would smash through that, a knife would just glance off and anger it more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes i agree with this... i mean... it's like the devs are forcing that we lug around an axe. Watch it turns out to be exactly like the NS1 knife in functionality and will look like this this xD
<!--quoteo(post=1737945:date=Nov 17 2009, 04:07 AM:name=Terr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Terr @ Nov 17 2009, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody's arguing that <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KineticWeaponsAreJustBetter" target="_blank">kinetic weapons are bad</a>, but as I've said the emphasis on knives, specifically, is out of place versus the ST book. Even in the expletive-deleted movie adaptation, the knife scene is based around the assumption of a human opponent.
First off, it's not certain that a "carapace-melting laser" would be any more effective than ballistic weaponry. There's nowhere near enough technical data on the game world to make that kind of determination.
Second, That would work for NS1, but presumably NS2 is a "few years" after the original encounters, enough so that they've realized something a bit different may be more effective against their only expected opposition.
Teleportation, FTL travel, personal jetpacks, and programmable nanomaterials... Yeah :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) NS is not ST, it follows it closely enough to see how having a knife pairs visually well with the genre-style, as especially seen in the movie adaptation. 2) Nor is there anymore data to suggest an axe would do better, but as I said that's missing the point completely - the current marine has any number of flaws against an alien that isn't going to be corrected for the same reason we're not going to see a "nanite shield" or "holo katana" (even if such things did exist). Let me spell it out again: you can't justify a <u>genre-breaker</u> based on <u>hypothetics</u>, no matter how 'plausible' it might seem. 3) The problem is that you're having trouble understanding the genre: In contrast to 'dirty/mid-tech', 'Super-high-tech' societies have evolved beyond ballistic weaponry, and do not create ships of creaking metal and low-hanging wires over laval-pits. Think "high-efficiency" vs "get 'er done". Think StarTrek vs Starship Troopers. Think Protoss vs Terran.
Comments
end of discussion
This is the kind of stupid / weird small things <b>killing the greatness of NS as a whole</b>. You are doing it wrong. <b>A knife is 1000x useful under whatever conditions</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh <i>shut up</i>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The dual head design of a fire axe allows firefighters to carry one tool instead of two. Using a fire axe, they can cut down doors, quickly pry off trim and door jams, and lever away material like sheetrock and paneled ceiling tiles. Some fire axes are also designed to cut through electrical wires or to cut off gas, although these features may drive up the cost of the axe. Fire axes can also be used to quickly gain access to vehicles and perform other tasks which a fireman might need to do. The design of the axe is intended to promote safe, rapid, and efficient extrication of people and goods from fires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should go market your 'fire knife' to rescue crews because it's more useful under WHATEVER CONDITIONS. <b>1000x MORE USEFUL</b>.
Yes, a knife is 1000x more useful under whatever conditions, if your only condition is John Rambo running around in the woods.
Axes are great for breaking down WOODEN DOORS. Not alot of those on a SPACE STATION.
You can bust through more than wood with a fire axe, which is why they use them, dingus. The entire point of the pick end and some more modern ones have a prybar in the handle is so you can mangle and bust through metal doors, be it an elevator or a car. In every situation an axe is useful, a knife would not be useful, thus negating that moron's "point" that a knife is somehow more useful than an axe.
What, are you going to use your knife to whittle some ###### spears out of branches on the space station too?
Nothing like ramming your knife arm-deep into a writhing mass of pointed razors.
Also, the TSA are specifically called in to deal with "incidents," they aren't boy scouts.
And the gunblade is like... ... ... meh!
Crowbar on the other hand! :>
I think if a gunblade/machete combo were to be something more closer to an actual machete as far as length and such goes, but the "gun" portion branching up the blade past the hilt, being on the side of the blade opposed to top/bottom [allowing curavture to the blade].
But then the question is, since we are getting a pistol what exactly would the gunblade shoot?
But then the question is, since we are getting a pistol what exactly would the gunblade shoot?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally, a useful reply to my thread!!!!!!!! I didn't think it was going to happen!!!!
Mr. Wizard, I think we are more or less on the same page.
I've given some thought to "pistol vs melee" and I've concluded either A) it's the same weapon, there's just a slight deploy time to switch as the grip of the gun is adjusted for slashing versus aiming, or B) the gunblade is more of a close-range scattershot than the pistol, with the additional brutal machete slash attack for melee. Thoughts?
With regular pistol ammo perhaps it could work fine either the muzzle being on a side of the blade or on the bottom... that marine HUD + nanites can explain the aiming ;)
With a scatter-shot there are some quirks that would have to be worked out. For instance: If the muzzle is on the side of the blade, we could conclude that the blade could block/ricochet the scatter-shot [nanites/improved metallurgy can account for little/no damage to the blade]. This, however, creates a side that is much safer for an alien to attack the marine opposed to the other side [speaking in Right/Left terms]. It would/could intensify gameplay for both sides.
I think the idea of the muzzle being on the bottom would be horrific... but I may be partially biased due to owning a very equipped and expensive knife set and I cringe at the thought of damaging the edge of a blade. On the top however, I'm honestly indifferent as the spine is typically a bit thicker and you aren't cutting things with it.
What if we took something from both sides though. You have proposed a type of gunblade. There is a 2sec switch-axe in the game. Not knowing what this switch-axe looks like/how the animations are, my idea can't really branch too far off of it. Let us, however, take an axe.... a Tabar zin to be precise. It's got a handle with an axe head. Only one side actually has a cutting edge, the other from what I've seen is more of a flat, hammer-like surface. Take this, make part of the handle the barrel and the very end the muzzle. We can add an end-knob for purposes of ammo storage and the older use so that it is less likely to slip out of one's hand.
A reasonable combination of the both, but I'm going to browse around at blade types and ponder some other mechanism.
Ah! Another idea... it is on that phosphorus level... though slightly different. Being in the dark about how exactly the siege turrets will be controlled [and with this, assuming they are controlled by the/a Com] what if the fired projectile was more of an indicator notifying them that such a building is a siege priority...
small-ish to the level of not being a short sword. And a fold-axe? Sweet.
Now is this fold just a delay to bring the weapon out like a switchblade? or does it serve an additional purpose as it is
folded up? Because I was thinkin' about this book that I read.
One of the weapons was a knife that had a hollow blade and when stabbed into somebody a button allowed you to
deliver a burst of compressed liquid nitrogen into their body, freezing their internal organs instantly.
Now this only serves to inspire, because I know you guys were talking about the taser-type weapon. Maybe in its
folded state it could function as a minor stun or incapacitation device either at close range or far. I'm sure the
design could be complemented for the features with a little bit of dedication ;)
Or has the second weapon function already been discussed/created..?
end of discussion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why has this thread even progressed past this point?
it's standard issue gun, standard issue knife. not standard issue punch standard issue tomahawk.
<img src="http://www.thefirestore.com/images/pry_axe.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.kellac.com/xcart/images/P/untitled-13.JPG" border="0" class="linked-image" />
And having a knife (even if we have this new axe) makes loads more sense then just saying NO MORE KNIFE... HERE'S AN AXE!!!
A rescue / utility axe, as I've been parading around in these threads, makes more sense for the marines to have, but it doesn't sound very practical as a weapon. The one area a knife shines is that it can be used in close quarters, an axe requires room to swing.
However ultimately vs. the aliens I don't think a knife would be terribly useful. Knives just aren't that deadly. Whenever there's a stabbing homicide, the victim usually has twenty plus stab wounds. When an axe is involved it's a whack or two and that's it. Axes slice tissue, smash bone, and cause major tissue disruption. Aliens are bristling with piss and hate and are armored with bone plating, an axe would smash through that, a knife would just glance off and anger it more.
go down to your local recruitment office and talk to the hand-to-hand combat specialist. Ask him why the knife has been standard military issue for over a century.
oh what's that? suddenly reality no longer conforms to your expectations, you want to use fiction? go watch starship troopers.
I'm not against a knife (or perhaps some sort of vibroblade), but trying to draw from real-life on this one meets the hurdle that it's a tool designed in terms of length and heft that is designed to be used against <b>human</b> anatomy. (Well, besides the obvious utility purposes.)
I'm not against a knife (or perhaps some sort of vibroblade), but trying to draw from real-life on this one meets the hurdle that it's a tool designed in terms of length and heft that is designed to be used against <b>human</b> anatomy. (Well, besides the obvious utility purposes.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1737900:date=Nov 16 2009, 09:52 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Nov 16 2009, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because stabbing homicides are performed by trained marines. fail harder.
go down to your local recruitment office and talk to the hand-to-hand combat specialist. Ask him why the knife has been standard military issue for over a century.
<u><b>oh what's that? suddenly reality no longer conforms to your expectations, you want to use fiction? go watch starship troopers.</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm confused. You just countered yourself... NS is a fiction game and pulls much of its inspiration from fiction, including Starship Troopers.
In the ST movie scene, it's still about attacking <b>human</b> hands, because AFAIK by that point they don't know about any "intelligent" bugs who would even have buttons to push, so it can't possibly be a reference to disabling one of their six limbs. In the <b>book</b> they use a "knife beam" weapon, and the knife-scene goes quite differently with a philosophical explanation of why they <b>train</b> with knives, rather than how you would ever actually use one on a bug.
As a practical matter in both reality and science fiction, nobody would be issued a plain metal knife as their "real" melee weapon when dealing with towering alien monstrosities.
1) There's the Axe;
Pro's:
- Heavier impact damage.
- Variation from the standard-issue knife.
- Perhaps usable in terms of game-mechanics as well, as opposed to just combat.
Cons
- Not as versatile in combat.
2) Then there's the standard knife;
Pro's:
- Versatile
- It's used in real life in the army (in my opinion, an invalid argument. Real life is hardly a standard for fictional aliens).
- It's quick, slicing, stabbing etc.
Cons:
- Little damage compared to an axe.
- Less armor penetration.
3) Finally, the topic starter's idea, the gunblade;
Pro's:
- Very different from the standard weapons.
- Graphically more impressive.
- Combined weapon, both melee and ranged.
Cons:
- Doesn't neccesarily fit the game (it's more of a cyberpunk weapon).
- Not very likely to be effective
- Same problems as knives.
---
So, I'd conclude that UWE made the right decision - the axe is the better contender in this "race".
I'm not sure if an opinion can be definitively called "right," especially when others disagree with your opinion, but leaving that aside - this has been said a couple times and I still don't quite get it - how can the gunblade "not fit in the game" stylistically, given that <i>it is depicted in the game's logo?</i>
Tell you what, let's look at the US Army's seal. Not the star they use in marketing materials and TV slots, but the official one. Here's a <a href="http://www.army.mil/symbols/Downloads/ArmySealHigh.jpg" target="_blank">large picture</a>.
<ul><li>Cannonballs</li><li>A musket</li><li>A sword</li><li>A drumset</li><li>A pike</li><li>An archaic suit of armor</li></ul>
None of which you'll probably find in active use on the battlefield, yet are still institutional symbols. Similarly, there's no reason that a sword/gun/wings have to be in-game in order to be the TSA/Frontiersman set of symbols.
precisely. and like ST they use combat knives and ballistic weaponry, not axes or pulse laser rifles. this isn't about what's fit for killing aliens, it's about what's fit for the genre.
"oh but knives aren't good against aliens" - you fail to see the point. If optimized-alien-killing were the focus, there wouldn't ballistic weaponry, they'd have carapace-melting lasers instead.
It's not about reality, fiction, or hypothetics; it's a genre design - these are mid/dirty-tech marines with ballistic-weaponry best complemented by the combat knife - they're the army of today cast tomorrow. They're not some all-purpose rescue rangers or firemen nor do they hail from super-tech society.
What needs to be considered here, first and foremost, is genre-breaking. There are many weapons that fit into the dirty-tech humanized 'space marine' genre (like the "knife beam"), but an axe is not one of them. So rather than go on about how impractical an axe is and the fact that you'd have an easier time pulling Excalibur from its stone than an axe lodged into an alien's hide, suffice to say: it's genre-breaking.
Nobody's arguing that <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KineticWeaponsAreJustBetter" target="_blank">kinetic weapons are bad</a>, but as I've said the emphasis on knives, specifically, is out of place versus the ST book. Even in the expletive-deleted movie adaptation, the knife scene is based around the assumption of a human opponent.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If optimized-alien-killing were the focus, there wouldn't ballistic weaponry, they'd have carapace-melting lasers instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, it's not certain that a "carapace-melting laser" would be any more effective than ballistic weaponry. There's nowhere near enough technical data on the game world to make that kind of determination.
Second, That would work for NS1, but presumably NS2 is a "few years" after the original encounters, enough so that they've realized something a bit different may be more effective against their only expected opposition.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nor do they hail from super-tech society.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Teleportation, FTL travel, personal jetpacks, and programmable nanomaterials... Yeah :P
<ul><li>vibroblade
already mentioned, microvibrations at a frequency close to the speed of sound or even faster</li><li>plasmaedge
a magnetic field on the edge keeps superheated gas in place and anything entering the field is broken apart by the incredible hot gas.
can also cause rad-poisoning since plasma is made up of ionized atoms and can emit electron radition</li><li>monofilament
edges made up from exactly one atom, can cut molecules - this one is highly theoreticall i think, i dont know of any real life examples for today</li></ul>
of course, it could be used on an axe as well, but it'd be stupid since you don't need to swing the weapon around like a homicide as it goes through anything like the literal hot knive through butter anyway.
However ultimately vs. the aliens I don't think a knife would be terribly useful. Knives just aren't that deadly. Whenever there's a stabbing homicide, the victim usually has twenty plus stab wounds. When an axe is involved it's a whack or two and that's it. Axes slice tissue, smash bone, and cause major tissue disruption. Aliens are bristling with piss and hate and are armored with bone plating, an axe would smash through that, a knife would just glance off and anger it more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes i agree with this... i mean... it's like the devs are forcing that we lug around an axe. Watch it turns out to be exactly like the NS1 knife in functionality and will look like this this xD
<img src="http://www.gearcrave.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/kick-axe.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
In reality it makes more sense to equip us with shovels. I mean digsiege! :P
First off, it's not certain that a "carapace-melting laser" would be any more effective than ballistic weaponry. There's nowhere near enough technical data on the game world to make that kind of determination.
Second, That would work for NS1, but presumably NS2 is a "few years" after the original encounters, enough so that they've realized something a bit different may be more effective against their only expected opposition.
Teleportation, FTL travel, personal jetpacks, and programmable nanomaterials... Yeah :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) NS is not ST, it follows it closely enough to see how having a knife pairs visually well with the genre-style, as especially seen in the movie adaptation.
2) Nor is there anymore data to suggest an axe would do better, but as I said that's missing the point completely - the current marine has any number of flaws against an alien that isn't going to be corrected for the same reason we're not going to see a "nanite shield" or "holo katana" (even if such things did exist). Let me spell it out again: you can't justify a <u>genre-breaker</u> based on <u>hypothetics</u>, no matter how 'plausible' it might seem.
3) The problem is that you're having trouble understanding the genre: In contrast to 'dirty/mid-tech', 'Super-high-tech' societies have evolved beyond ballistic weaponry, and do not create ships of creaking metal and low-hanging wires over laval-pits. Think "high-efficiency" vs "get 'er done". Think StarTrek vs Starship Troopers. Think Protoss vs Terran.