Even in the most dire circumstance, I can't imagine a marine hopping into a vent. When I think about it, it's almost downright laughable ("OH NO! The base is under attack! What do we do?" "Quick! Get in this vent so that we can all get eaten one by one by a lone skulk!"). As I said before, it just seems like it would be an incredibly impractical and pointless thing to choose to do.
I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy trying to be an advocate against putting this idea into the game, but it just seems to me like it would be wasted effort to implement it when it's never going to be utilized.
<!--quoteo(post=1736876:date=Nov 9 2009, 09:15 PM:name=Hebacheba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hebacheba @ Nov 9 2009, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it would be wasted effort to implement it when it's never going to be utilized.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Implement what? It's not like it takes some special-case code system to allow players to enter areas where the collision allows them to fit. In fact, it's far MORE effort to create the current proposed system, in which human players are artificially limited from entering vents.
I don't know if something changed since I used to play NS1 (round 2005), but as marines, we used to use vents all the time, depending on map. On various maps they would give marines a way around if aliens had a normal pathway blockaded. And theres been a few times were we came back from the jaws of defeat (3 hives) by crawling through vents to set up seiges next to a hive. As I said above, being able to build in vents does seem a bit unfair to aliens, and maybe that should be nixed, although there were counters to that. Building in vents became an incredibly expensive strategy once lerks found you and the comm had to drop bucketloads of meds. Fun in games is mostly about giving players options (different possible ways to achieve a goal). Actually spending valuable time to intentionally completely remove possible strategies, even if they might seem silly, is generally not a good use of time. Spending time to make the game less interesting essentially.
wasnt there a "no build" brush based entity in ns1 that would stop you building within the brush? if not maybe something along the lines of that should be implemented in ns2 and mappers just "no build" all vents
<!--quoteo(post=1736877:date=Nov 9 2009, 02:37 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 9 2009, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Implement what? It's not like it takes some special-case code system to allow players to enter areas where the collision allows them to fit. In fact, it's far MORE effort to create the current proposed system, in which human players are artificially limited from entering vents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was commenting that there would be no point in implementing the system that makes marines crawl slower and have limited weapons and whatever else was suggested. Also, although I have not played NS2, I think it's safe to say that there won't just be invisible walls, and it will actually be a matter of marines being too large to fit into the vents. In NS1, most vents that marines were in had the marines' heads poking through the ceiling of the vent, so probably in NS2 they will have a more reasonable crouch height.
<!--quoteo(post=1737276:date=Nov 12 2009, 04:28 AM:name=Hebacheba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hebacheba @ Nov 12 2009, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was commenting that there would be no point in implementing the system that makes marines crawl slower and have limited weapons<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guarantee that crouching already makes players move slower, every fps has that because it's realistic. Sure, I'll give you the 'limited weapons' part, but seriously, with all the hype UWE is building about how flexible the modding tools are, it's probably trivial. Or not, come on - this is the <i>suggestions</i> subforum, and I defy you to find any worthwhile suggestion that doesn't involve implementing anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1737276:date=Nov 12 2009, 04:28 AM:name=Hebacheba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hebacheba @ Nov 12 2009, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1, most vents that marines were in had the marines' heads poking through the ceiling of the vent, so probably in NS2 they will have a more reasonable crouch height.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or, in NS2 they will make the vents larger. I don't have to tell you that the Skulks are larger, so it follows that the vents would also be scaled up. The height of a Skulk in the screenshot on the frontpage looks like it could plausibly be the same height as a crouched human.
Allow marines into vents, thanks. Opens up an array of possibilities of hiding, sneaking, ninjaing, etc, that I personally think is awesome in NS1. If you restrict marines to only just walking around the regular parts of the map, that takes a big chunk out of the depth of the gameplay and strategies, in my opinion. Just more bland. And I haven't even mentioned jetpacks yet...
Restricting weapons and things in the vents is all good (and removing uber-fast JP vent marines, I guess, is ok, as long if fades blink that they can't speed through anymore either), but as for the current system, how many times do you need to charge a marine who is camping the vent before you learn that you're going to lose? Don't blame the game for player stupidity.
<!--quoteo(post=1737278:date=Nov 11 2009, 10:10 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 11 2009, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I defy you to find any worthwhile suggestion that doesn't involve implementing anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And what I'm arguing here is that this really isn't a worthwhile suggestion. I'd like to note that my previous sentence sounds a lot more ill-tempered than I intend it.
<!--quoteo(post=1737278:date=Nov 11 2009, 10:10 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 11 2009, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The height of a Skulk in the screenshot on the frontpage looks like it could plausibly be the same height as a crouched human.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My own crouch height is just over half of my standing height. The skulks look to be about a third of the height of a marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1737314:date=Nov 12 2009, 01:56 PM:name=Hebacheba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hebacheba @ Nov 12 2009, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And what I'm arguing here is that this really isn't a worthwhile suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, I guess. On the other hand, it seems like quite a few people think its a good suggestion ; )
"Quite a few people" = you making and endless barrage of stupid posts on why this idea isn't as retarded as the rest of the ###### in I&S.
Let's back this up a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1735675:date=Nov 2 2009, 11:10 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2009, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines aren't supposed to be leaping out of vents screaming "HAI-KEEBA" to ambush Fades. <!--quoteo(post=1735676:date=Nov 2 2009, 11:19 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 2 2009, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> And you're now the arbiter of what frontiersmen are "supposed" to be doing...why, exactly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know who is the arbiter of what frontiersmen are supposed to be doing? Flayra and co. You know, the people who had the idea to lock marines out of vents in the first place. This means that they don't think marines should be leaping out of vents to karate chop fades either.
Aliens are supposed to be the sneaky ambushing types, marines are supposed to stick with the main hallways because at no point in their training would 'crawl through a vent so you can jump out like a god damn ninja' have come up. You and your stupid thread is what is propsing a change of marine mechanics and what they're "supposed" to do, only your justifications are so idiotic you have to resort to the 'immersion' argument to do it. Except for the fact that marines in vents in NS1 was idiotically immersion breaking. Next you're going to tell me that using laser mines to climb up TO THE VENT to climb in wasn't immersion breaking either, right?
Marines aren't supposed to be leaping out of vents to ambush anything.
Marines aren't supposed to be crawling around in vents to circumnavigate parts of the map.
This is not only according to me, but also according to quite a lot of NS1 map design, the idea what teams are 'supposed' to be doing what in NS1, and, right, also according to the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1737595:date=Nov 14 2009, 07:50 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 14 2009, 07:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not only according to me, but also according to quite a lot of NS1 map design, the idea what teams are 'supposed' to be doing what in NS1, and, right, also according to the developers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT:
<!--quoteo(post=1736904:date=Nov 9 2009, 11:08 PM:name=blitz_krieg001)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blitz_krieg001 @ Nov 9 2009, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if something changed since I used to play NS1 (round 2005), but as marines, we used to use vents all the time, depending on map. On various maps they would give marines a way around if aliens had a normal pathway blockaded. And theres been a few times were we came back from the jaws of defeat (3 hives) by crawling through vents to set up seiges next to a hive. <b>Fun in games is mostly about giving players options (different possible ways to achieve a goal). Actually spending valuable time to intentionally completely remove possible strategies, even if they might seem silly, is generally not a good use of time. Spending time to make the game less interesting essentially.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Temp: You're of course entitled to your opinion, but contrary to it just being "me making and endless barrage" your opposition seems to be quite outnumbered in this thread. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1737600:date=Nov 14 2009, 08:07 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 14 2009, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Temp: You're of course entitled to your opinion, but contrary to it just being "me making and endless barrage" your opposition seems to be quite outnumbered in this thread. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure the aliens thought it was fun that they lost the game because of that too.
And by the way, I count 6 people for, 5 people against, and 3 indifferent. "Quite a few people" indeed.
"OMGWTFBBQ ITS OGNNA HAEV SOMETHING ELSZE THAT R NOT LIEK NS1 OMOGMGOMOGMGMGO RAAAAAGE"
Maybe they could ninja fly through vents with their survival knifetanas that are 1000x more useful than an axe in any situation, ever.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1737601:date=Nov 14 2009, 10:09 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 14 2009, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe they could ninja fly through vents with their survival knifetanas that are 1000x more useful than an axe in any situation, ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ninja's can't fly! They sneak, pounce and surprise (they own any surprise party, however such a party is over in a few seconds as well :()
<!--quoteo(post=1737608:date=Nov 14 2009, 08:27 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 14 2009, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ninja's can't fly! They sneak, pounce and surprise (they own any surprise party, however such a party is over in a few seconds as well :()<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Clearly you haven't seen a Quentin Tarantino import.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1737611:date=Nov 14 2009, 10:30 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 14 2009, 10:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly you haven't seen a Quentin Tarantino import.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems I was indeed wrong. A ninja has a few legendary abilities and flight is one of them! But does he fly around in vents, that is the question :P
I think you should be allowed in the vents when you are forced to army crawl in them, laying on your gun, so that when I find you in the vents I can kill you with little difficulty.
Actual vents are not that big, vents are too straight to give marines access to them, and frankly, marines have their own equivalent of vents, they are called hallways.
If you're going to make the argument that marines shouldn't be allowed in vents because the vents are too small, then all aliens except for skulk should also not be allowed in vents, and skulks shouldn't be able to turn around in a vent either.
<!--quoteo(post=1737601:date=Nov 14 2009, 08:09 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 14 2009, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And by the way, I count 6 people for, 5 people against, and 3 indifferent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I.e. 9 vs 5, hardly "just me" in support. Thanks for proving my point (and finally reading/comprehending the thread before posting).
<!--quoteo(post=1737683:date=Nov 15 2009, 08:56 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 15 2009, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1737601:date=Nov 14 2009, 08:09 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 14 2009, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1737600:date=Nov 14 2009, 08:07 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 14 2009, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <b>your opposition seems to be quite outnumbered</b> in this thread. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And by the way, I count <b>6 people for, 5 people against, and 3 indifferent.</b> "Quite a few people" indeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>I.e. 9</b> vs 5 <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You were a lot less pathetic when you were saying it was totally unrealistic and unbelievable that marines couldn't ambush aliens by leaping out of vents from the ceilings.
I'm on whatever side Temphage isn't on. That should clarify which side is pulling through...Now if we could only get the input of the other 250 guest members currently online.
Gameplay trumps realism. But in this case I think they are both in agreement: Vents are alien territory, for small vicious aliens that bend and travel in ways people can't.
Having separate alternate pathing systems (vents versus welding and door-control) makes more sense to me. Any vent that isn't alien-only should properly be classified as a hallway.
Allowing marines to gimmick their way into the vent system may or may not break "immersion" (depending on what movies you watch), but it does break a potentially valuable source of strategic asymmetry.
Comments
I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy trying to be an advocate against putting this idea into the game, but it just seems to me like it would be wasted effort to implement it when it's never going to be utilized.
Implement what? It's not like it takes some special-case code system to allow players to enter areas where the collision allows them to fit.
In fact, it's far MORE effort to create the current proposed system, in which human players are artificially limited from entering vents.
Fun in games is mostly about giving players options (different possible ways to achieve a goal). Actually spending valuable time to intentionally completely remove possible strategies, even if they might seem silly, is generally not a good use of time. Spending time to make the game less interesting essentially.
In fact, it's far MORE effort to create the current proposed system, in which human players are artificially limited from entering vents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was commenting that there would be no point in implementing the system that makes marines crawl slower and have limited weapons and whatever else was suggested. Also, although I have not played NS2, I think it's safe to say that there won't just be invisible walls, and it will actually be a matter of marines being too large to fit into the vents. In NS1, most vents that marines were in had the marines' heads poking through the ceiling of the vent, so probably in NS2 they will have a more reasonable crouch height.
I guarantee that crouching already makes players move slower, every fps has that because it's realistic. Sure, I'll give you the 'limited weapons' part, but seriously, with all the hype UWE is building about how flexible the modding tools are, it's probably trivial. Or not, come on - this is the <i>suggestions</i> subforum, and I defy you to find any worthwhile suggestion that doesn't involve implementing anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1737276:date=Nov 12 2009, 04:28 AM:name=Hebacheba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hebacheba @ Nov 12 2009, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1, most vents that marines were in had the marines' heads poking through the ceiling of the vent, so probably in NS2 they will have a more reasonable crouch height.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or, in NS2 they will make the vents larger. I don't have to tell you that the Skulks are larger, so it follows that the vents would also be scaled up. The height of a Skulk in the screenshot on the frontpage looks like it could plausibly be the same height as a crouched human.
Restricting weapons and things in the vents is all good (and removing uber-fast JP vent marines, I guess, is ok, as long if fades blink that they can't speed through anymore either), but as for the current system, how many times do you need to charge a marine who is camping the vent before you learn that you're going to lose? Don't blame the game for player stupidity.
And what I'm arguing here is that this really isn't a worthwhile suggestion. I'd like to note that my previous sentence sounds a lot more ill-tempered than I intend it.
<!--quoteo(post=1737278:date=Nov 11 2009, 10:10 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 11 2009, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The height of a Skulk in the screenshot on the frontpage looks like it could plausibly be the same height as a crouched human.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My own crouch height is just over half of my standing height. The skulks look to be about a third of the height of a marine.
You're opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, I guess. On the other hand, it seems like quite a few people think its a good suggestion ; )
Let's back this up a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1735675:date=Nov 2 2009, 11:10 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2009, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines aren't supposed to be leaping out of vents screaming "HAI-KEEBA" to ambush Fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1735676:date=Nov 2 2009, 11:19 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 2 2009, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
And you're now the arbiter of what frontiersmen are "supposed" to be doing...why, exactly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know who is the arbiter of what frontiersmen are supposed to be doing? Flayra and co. You know, the people who had the idea to lock marines out of vents in the first place. This means that they don't think marines should be leaping out of vents to karate chop fades either.
Aliens are supposed to be the sneaky ambushing types, marines are supposed to stick with the main hallways because at no point in their training would 'crawl through a vent so you can jump out like a god damn ninja' have come up. You and your stupid thread is what is propsing a change of marine mechanics and what they're "supposed" to do, only your justifications are so idiotic you have to resort to the 'immersion' argument to do it. Except for the fact that marines in vents in NS1 was idiotically immersion breaking. Next you're going to tell me that using laser mines to climb up TO THE VENT to climb in wasn't immersion breaking either, right?
Marines aren't supposed to be leaping out of vents to ambush anything.
Marines aren't supposed to be crawling around in vents to circumnavigate parts of the map.
This is not only according to me, but also according to quite a lot of NS1 map design, the idea what teams are 'supposed' to be doing what in NS1, and, right, also according to the developers.
Marines don't belong in vents.
QFT:
<!--quoteo(post=1736904:date=Nov 9 2009, 11:08 PM:name=blitz_krieg001)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blitz_krieg001 @ Nov 9 2009, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if something changed since I used to play NS1 (round 2005), but as marines, we used to use vents all the time, depending on map. On various maps they would give marines a way around if aliens had a normal pathway blockaded. And theres been a few times were we came back from the jaws of defeat (3 hives) by crawling through vents to set up seiges next to a hive.
<b>Fun in games is mostly about giving players options (different possible ways to achieve a goal). Actually spending valuable time to intentionally completely remove possible strategies, even if they might seem silly, is generally not a good use of time. Spending time to make the game less interesting essentially.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Temp: You're of course entitled to your opinion, but contrary to it just being "me making and endless barrage" your opposition seems to be quite outnumbered in this thread. ;)
I'm sure the aliens thought it was fun that they lost the game because of that too.
And by the way, I count 6 people for, 5 people against, and 3 indifferent. "Quite a few people" indeed.
"OMGWTFBBQ ITS OGNNA HAEV SOMETHING ELSZE THAT R NOT LIEK NS1 OMOGMGOMOGMGMGO RAAAAAGE"
Maybe they could ninja fly through vents with their survival knifetanas that are 1000x more useful than an axe in any situation, ever.
Ninja's can't fly! They sneak, pounce and surprise (they own any surprise party, however such a party is over in a few seconds as well :()
Clearly you haven't seen a Quentin Tarantino import.
It seems I was indeed wrong. A ninja has a few legendary abilities and flight is one of them! But does he fly around in vents, that is the question :P
Actual vents are not that big, vents are too straight to give marines access to them, and frankly, marines have their own equivalent of vents, they are called hallways.
I.e. 9 vs 5, hardly "just me" in support. Thanks for proving my point (and finally reading/comprehending the thread before posting).
<b>your opposition seems to be quite outnumbered</b> in this thread. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And by the way, I count <b>6 people for, 5 people against, and 3 indifferent.</b> "Quite a few people" indeed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>I.e. 9</b> vs 5
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You were a lot less pathetic when you were saying it was totally unrealistic and unbelievable that marines couldn't ambush aliens by leaping out of vents from the ceilings.
Having separate alternate pathing systems (vents versus welding and door-control) makes more sense to me. Any vent that isn't alien-only should properly be classified as a hallway.
Allowing marines to gimmick their way into the vent system may or may not break "immersion" (depending on what movies you watch), but it does break a potentially valuable source of strategic asymmetry.