NS2 Achievements
Faskalia
Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Members, Constellation
Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">It's all Kwils fault!</div>So, Kwil got me thinking.
Sure everyone hates achievements, but mainly because they are usually a stupid grindfest or tied to an advantage giving award.
So lets make up some potential NS 2 achievements, that are fun and non grindy.
Goodbye: Kill 10000 Aliens and hello:
<ol type='i'><li>Achievment Name </li><li>Short description</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Heart of Stone </li><li>Kill 10 Gorges in Shield Mode</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Zzzzaaaapp </li><li>Tazer a leaping skulk</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Big Brother </li><li>Catch an idle marine and use the motivator to get them moving again.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Ohhhh, shiny. </li><li>Get telefragged by an infantry portal</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Kill it with fire! </li><li>Set 3 different aliens ablaze in only 5 seconds.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Don't flintch </li><li>Hide in plain side of marines without moving for 10 consecutive seconds</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Figure skating </li><li>Perform a 360 while belly sliding</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>It used to work that way... </li><li>Try to railjump 50 times</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Envy </li><li>Vote eject 100 times with only 20 seconds on the roundtimer.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Humiliation </li><li>Healspray that last rine to death</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Oldschool </li><li>Use the words "lork", "clorf" and "shirtgun" in a single sentence</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Matter of habbit </li><li>As a commander use the same build order 5 times in a row.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Way too talkative... </li><li>Get muted by 20 different players.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Fatty rush </li><li>Win a game during the first 60 seconds with at least 50% of aliens playing as gorge.</li></ol>
Sure everyone hates achievements, but mainly because they are usually a stupid grindfest or tied to an advantage giving award.
So lets make up some potential NS 2 achievements, that are fun and non grindy.
Goodbye: Kill 10000 Aliens and hello:
<ol type='i'><li>Achievment Name </li><li>Short description</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Heart of Stone </li><li>Kill 10 Gorges in Shield Mode</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Zzzzaaaapp </li><li>Tazer a leaping skulk</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Big Brother </li><li>Catch an idle marine and use the motivator to get them moving again.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Ohhhh, shiny. </li><li>Get telefragged by an infantry portal</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Kill it with fire! </li><li>Set 3 different aliens ablaze in only 5 seconds.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Don't flintch </li><li>Hide in plain side of marines without moving for 10 consecutive seconds</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Figure skating </li><li>Perform a 360 while belly sliding</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>It used to work that way... </li><li>Try to railjump 50 times</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Envy </li><li>Vote eject 100 times with only 20 seconds on the roundtimer.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Humiliation </li><li>Healspray that last rine to death</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Oldschool </li><li>Use the words "lork", "clorf" and "shirtgun" in a single sentence</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Matter of habbit </li><li>As a commander use the same build order 5 times in a row.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Way too talkative... </li><li>Get muted by 20 different players.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Fatty rush </li><li>Win a game during the first 60 seconds with at least 50% of aliens playing as gorge.</li></ol>
Comments
Damit, I was just about to post the same.
I vote yes for achievements.
Let me try.
Kill 10 Gorges in Shield Mode
<b>Translation: waste bullets on gorges you probably can't kill. It gets especially interesting if it's in one match - rest assured players will ignore nearby skullks to target shielding gorge instead.</b>
Tazer a leaping skulk
<b>Handicap your team by using weaker weapons, and not playing to your full potential. If out of ammo, don't go to resupply.</b>
Get telefragged by an infantry portal
<b>
So I'm a skulk and I've managed to get to an unguarded portal. Should I
a) destroy it
b) step into it and get an achievement ?
The non-choice is easy - no achievement for destroying the portal and helping your team... At least for the first time.</b>
Set 3 different aliens ablaze in only 5 seconds.
<b>
Translation:
Charge blindly into any big group of aliens, dying in the process, waste resources spent on flamethrower that could help the team better.</b>
Hide in plain side of marines without moving for 10 consecutive seconds
<b>No sensible way to detect this. A marine may see you but unable to shoot for some reason - out of ammo, shooting something else, no weapon etc.</b>
Perform a 360 while belly sliding
<b>Translation:
handicap your team by confusing them into thinking they have a gorge, and can safely use other lifeforms. Just keep practicing.</b>
Try to railjump 50 times
<b>
Translation:
get your teammates to votekick you.</b>
Vote eject 100 times with only 20 seconds on the roundtimer.
<b>
Translation:
be a jerk</b>
Healspray that last rine to death
<b>
Translation:
Bore the remaining marine players into joing another server. I know it's <i>very</i> fun in Tremulous when the game doesn't end with all buildings dead and you need to hunt that last spider-sized alien down on a metro station map. </b>
As a commander use the same build order 5 times in a row.
<b>
Translation:
Don't adapt. Bring your team down.</b>
Get muted by 20 different players.
<b>Do I get an achievement for teamkilling too ?</b>
Bottom line: achievemnts suck more than people think. Supporters of achievements themvselves prove achievements suck. Implementing achievements in your game is like admitting you know your game isn't fun, and people won't come back just to play it. As shown above, they are often <i>worse</i> than useless because they negatively impact players' behaviour. Classic example - reward player for healing/reviving teammates. A good teammate medic would prevent his teamamtes from dying and revive only those who didn't make it. Achievement obsessed players will watch his teammates die.
So if theres one thing we should learn from that experience is that achievements DETRACT from GAMEPLAY! NO ACHIEVEMENTS IN NS2! I usually take a pretty relaxed stance for news/suggestions but this is something I feel pretty strongly about.
So if theres one thing we should learn from that experience is that achievements DETRACT from GAMEPLAY! NO ACHIEVEMENTS IN NS2! I usually take a pretty relaxed stance for news/suggestions but this is something I feel pretty strongly about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When TF2 first came out pretty much no-one "grinded" achievements, or really cared about getting them. How many people do you see grinding achievements in L4D? Maybe one or two with OCD, and that's it. What turned TF2 into grind mode was linking rewards to achievements, though Valve made things better along the way by making them easier to get. That said, lets look at how most of the achievements in TF2 fall into a number of categories.
1. Easy achievements which give you a feel for a class. These are very much intermediate ones which give you a good idea what you should be doing when playing a particular class.
E.g. Set 5 people on fire as a Pyro, Heal 25,000 total points as a Medic, Get 25 Headshots as Sniper.
Using NS1, we could work with some like this:
Stun and Digest 25 Heavy Marines, Heal 25,000 total points as Gorge, Destroy a resource node as Skulk, build 25 structures as Marine, help destroy a Hive, follow 50 waypoints
2. Achievements which promote good gameplay as a class. These serve as the next step up, further rewarding specific gameplay which again reinforces what you should be doing. These are more difficult to pull off and require a greater understanding of class mechanics.
E.g. Get 3 headshots in a row without missing, Kill a Soldier with a reflected critical rocket, Kill a medic with full ubercharge
Again, NS1 equivalents could be
Use Blink and Swipe to kill 5 Marines in one life as Fade, Destroy 3 marine structures in one life as Gorge, kill an alien with a hand grenade, weld 10 vents shut
3. Achievements which are based around a fluke occurrence happening, or which require you to perform actions which your class should not be doing.
E.g. Get 6 axe kills in one life as Pyro, hit an enemy with your Bonesaw 5 times in a row without missing, kill 3 enemies as Scout in a single ubercharge.
NS1 mode go!
Get 3 Parasite kills as Skulk, Kill 3 Heavies as Lerk using only Bite, Kill 3 enemies in one life as Gorge without using Offense Chambers, kill an Onos with a knife, when equipped with a shotgun get 3 kills with Pistol in one life, when equipped with Grenade launcher knife 2 structures to death in one life.
If NS2 was to stick to the first 2 categories, and didn't tie them to unlocks, I honestly can't see any problem with having achievements. NS1 is a very difficult game to pick up, and new players tend to get intimidated. Achievements like these give new players excellent feedback on what they should and should not be doing. Far from detracting from gameplay, they serve to promote it.
Doing something in one life isn't that good for NS either. There are moments when you're supposed to take risks and make sacrifices to get something done.
Achievements are only allowed if they helps new players to get to know the game.
Since I can't imagine that old players would have any left to achieve.
You just have to be carefull about ones you make available, for an extreem example "invasive surgery - Knife an onos to death" or somthing of the like. An achievement like that will have marrines droping all their weps and running an Onoses with Knives held high. which will enevitably end in much death, and not for the Onos.
So as long as they are one that dont encorage players to do somthing that would otherwise be considered stupid play im all for it.
I can definitely see achievments like those helping to point new players in the right direction. If a tutorial is added in I'd make compleating the tutorial an achievment as well.
They're not being silly. It's ridiculously easy to make achievement that encourage game prolonging and distract people from working for the team's good. TF2 achievements work because the game has no tech/res advantages and the teamwork code isn't as strict as in NS.
I think some achievements can work, but there are a lot more of limits for them than in most other games.
I think some achievements can work, but there are a lot more of limits for them than in most other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see achievements as more of a response to the player that they did something right. For example, there should be an achievement for a marine spotting a skulk in a vent. I find the whole "do a backflip while knifing an onos" type achievements to be a determent.
Sure everyone hates achievements, but mainly because they are usually a stupid grindfest or tied to an advantage giving award.
So lets make up some potential NS 2 achievements, that are fun and non grindy.
Goodbye: Kill 10000 Aliens and hello:
<ol type='i'><li>It used to work that way... </li><li>Try to railjump 50 times</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Envy </li><li>Vote eject 100 times with only 20 seconds on the roundtimer.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Way too talkative... </li><li>Get muted by 20 different players.</li></ol>
<ol type='i'><li>Fatty rush </li><li>Win a game during the first 60 seconds with at least 50% of aliens playing as gorge.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->These do exactly what achievements shouldn't be doing: reward you for grinding meaningless, counter-productive or arbitrary actions. I hope none of the achievements are anything like this.
In an ideal world, the achievements should be split between 40% that actively teach you the less-intuitive/most important mechanics in the game (e.g. Parasite 20 Marines), 40% that are hard-to-reach-but-not-impossible rewards (Heal over xxxxHP in one life as a Gorge) and 20% that are the toughest ones to get (e.g. Win 50 matches as Marine/Alien Commander).
If you're willing to keep them simple it works indeed. I don't know how far they can go though. It wouldn't probably be worth the implementation if all the achievements are unlocked after 2 hrs of gameplay.
That's what I generally don't like about achievements, they usually don't reflect much.
Achievements draw attention from gamers; a very small percentage of games have them on Steam. Properly designed achievements can actually encourage proper play, similar to map load tips but with positive reinforcement. Reward actions that help the team. Quirky achievements (eg. get two punch kills while ubered in TF2) aren't helpful and probably should be avoided.
+1