Res collecting from dead marines

DasBrotDasBrot Join Date: 2008-07-20 Member: 64670Members
edited August 2009 in Ideas and Suggestions
<div class="IPBDescription">idea that skulks can drag bodies to resource towers.</div>I posted this in the Skulk reveal thread, however, Since it's an significant idea/suggestion, I thought it would fit here more.

In the thread a many people mentioned grappling or dragging of marines. I'm not keen on the dragging of live marines, as this can be very annoying for a marine player.
but I can certainly imagine skulks dragging the dead bodies of marines about.
The idea is that bodies of dead marines could be collected for extra res when they are dragged to nearby resource towers.
To balance this out, The bodies can only be dragged slowly (but possibly faster if more skulks help), because of this slowdown the skulk player risks being an easy target for marines.

I for one would love doing this if I was playing as a skulk, and it also promotes teamwork with the skulks.
also as a marine, it would be very spooky seeing a group of skulks dragging a body around a corner or possible up inside a vent, lol.

This action will probably be seen most at the beginning of a match when the opposing teams are trying to collect as much res as possible to advance their team.

what are your thoughts on this?

Comments

  • DawormDaworm Join Date: 2009-06-22 Member: 67900Members
    edited August 2009
    I like the idea of dragging a dead marine to a res point. Especially if the marines try a rush and die right outside the alien hive.

    Bonus res to the aliens for marine failure! :)

    This would of course then involve the use of Ragdolls in a non-collision manner or perhaps allow it to take the impact of bullets should a marine be pulling it through a vent (not much point being in a vent and dragging a body if you can still get shot THROUGH a dead body).
  • sheena_yanaisheena_yanai Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
    edited August 2009
    this would require that every corpse of a dead marine has to stay instead of disappearing to unclutter the map and save performance...and at the rate marines die in NS they would pile in some corridors like leonidas wall of dead persians.

    ..oh.. and you would degrade gorges to a waste disposal class :p
  • DawormDaworm Join Date: 2009-06-22 Member: 67900Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1721137:date=Aug 7 2009, 02:18 PM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Aug 7 2009, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this would require that every corpse of a dead marine has to stay instead of disappearing to unclutter the map and save performance...and at the rate marines die in NS they would pile in some corridors like leonidas wall of dead persians.

    ..oh.. and you would degrade gorges to a waste disposal class :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nah, not always. Corpses despawn after a short period so if you don't go and grab it within say 2-3 minutes (at most) then corpse disappears.
  • DasBrotDasBrot Join Date: 2008-07-20 Member: 64670Members
    edited August 2009
    @ sheena_yanai

    yes, marine bodies dissolve/decompose away after a short period.
    but perhaps if the body is quickly grabbed before it disappears, it causes the body to stay visible until it is let go of again. then it will be in risk of dissolving as usual. unless of course it's dropped near a res tower, in which case the res tower would quickly absorb it.
  • sheena_yanaisheena_yanai Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
    its still silly...



    to make it fair for the marines you gotta create a counterpart ability....





    JANITOR-ARMOR ....equipped with this the marine is able to transform into a mini-lorry with crane, to remove dead aliens from the corridors and bring them to the next resource tower to give the marine commander his extra res
  • Cheezy104Cheezy104 Join Date: 2009-06-11 Member: 67792Members
    Bad idea. This would be very boring and time consuming.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    this could work if the gorge could spawn AI creatures, like those bugs you step on, in halflife. they then collect the bodies.
    or a lerk, since they are able to things quickly
  • DasBrotDasBrot Join Date: 2008-07-20 Member: 64670Members
    edited August 2009
    perhaps to deter from people collecting bodies over and over again. res towers can be given a limit to the number of bodies they can absorb at a time.
    perhaps say, they can only absorb only 2 at a time, and it takes 1 or 2 minutes to absorb each body.
    So, if too many bodies are present, they just disappear as usual. the animation/effect will differ so that people can clearly see the difference.

    this will significantly reduce the amount of time taken by players collecting bodies.

    on the subject of balance,
    I don't think it will be much of a problem. The skulk has a speed advantage, but if it's slowly dragging a body down a corridor it risks being an easy kill for marines.
    Also the sound/sight of a dragging body would alert marines to its position. and if the skulk is dragging a body, it's taking up time that could be used for killing.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
    more animations for skulk!
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
  • borsukborsuk Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67717Members
    edited August 2009
    This is res4kills in disguise, and res4kills sucks. It makes a team A <b>lose</b> to team B because of few bad players in team A. It doesn't make team B <b>win</b>. It has annoying gameplay consequences:
    - discourages newbies. Newbie vs experienced player: experienced one probably wins. Next time around it's experience+equipment vs newbie.
    - unarmed marines are yelled at for NOT camping in their base
    - punishes teams for having even small number of bad players. Outcome may be determined by who can prey on bad players better.
    - encourages camping. Kill enemies as close as possible to your turrets, drag them to res tower.
  • DasBrotDasBrot Join Date: 2008-07-20 Member: 64670Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1721304:date=Aug 7 2009, 04:57 PM:name=borsuk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (borsuk @ Aug 7 2009, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is res4kills in disguise, and res4kills sucks. It makes a team A <b>lose</b> to team B because of few bad players in team A. It doesn't make team B <b>win</b>. It has annoying gameplay consequences:
    - discourages newbies. Newbie vs experienced player: experienced one probably wins. Next time around it's experience+equipment vs newbie.
    - unarmed marines are yelled at for NOT camping in their base
    - punishes teams for having even small number of bad players. Outcome may be determined by who can prey on bad players better.
    - encourages camping. Kill enemies as close as possible to your turrets, drag them to res tower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    you have some valid points,
    I can possibly see it encouraging camping on the alien side, but I really can't see this being much of a problem if significant restrictions of the amount of bodies that can be collected is implemented.
    also marines will learn to look out for skulks hanging around res towers and other certain areas.
    you wont stop players from camping for whatever reason, like ambushes, etc. it's something that happens all the time.

    it's not unfair if the resources are spread throughout the whole team. perhaps the dead bodies simply slightly increase the speed in which the tower collects resources. (speeding up the res tower animation could signify this)


    basically, I just liked the idea of having skulks drag marine bodies around. and was thinking of how it could be implement it into the game.
    it's nice to give players extra goals. rather than just kill all the time.

    perhaps instead of resources, the dead bodies can be used to aid in the spread of Dynamic Infestation.
    what do you think?
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1721313:date=Aug 7 2009, 10:40 AM:name=DasBrot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DasBrot @ Aug 7 2009, 10:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you have some valid points,
    I can possibly see it encouraging camping on the alien side, but I really can't see this being much of a problem if significant restrictions of the amount of bodies that can be collected is implemented.
    also marines will learn to look out for skulks hanging around res towers and other certain areas.
    you wont stop players from camping for whatever reason, like ambushes, etc. it's something that happens all the time.

    it's not unfair if the resources are spread throughout the whole team. perhaps the dead bodies simply slightly increase the speed in which the tower collects resources. (speeding up the res tower animation could signify this)


    basically, I just liked the idea of having skulks drag marine bodies around. and was thinking of how it could be implement it into the game.
    it's nice to give players extra goals. rather than just kill all the time.

    perhaps instead of resources, the dead bodies can be used to aid in the spread of Dynamic Infestation.
    what do you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The difficulty comes from when you give one team benefits from killing a marine other than the simple absence of that marine from the area. As soon as you do that, the negative effects Borsuk was talking about come into play. Because NS is a team game, doing things that benefit the other team will get you hammered by people who are playing competitively.

    If you want to make a dragging mechanic avoid the problems Borsuk suggested, then the way to do it is to figure out a method whereby your corpse has a negative effect on the other team until it's removed. This would encourage both teams to move forward as "Just getting there" is of benefit to the team, whether you live or die. In this vein, perhaps what can be considered is that the presence of marines, live or dead, hampers the spread of infestation. Aliens would then need to drag the corpse away from where they want the infestation to spread -- either further into marine territory, or into already grown infestation (which it doesn't hurt), until the body decomposes naturally in a minute or so.
  • N3MES1SN3MES1S Join Date: 2009-07-29 Member: 68303Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1721137:date=Aug 7 2009, 04:18 AM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Aug 7 2009, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this would require that every corpse of a dead marine has to stay instead of disappearing to unclutter the map and save performance...and at the rate marines die in NS they would pile in some corridors like leonidas wall of dead persians.

    ..oh.. and you would degrade gorges to a waste disposal class :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    actually no, the bodies would still work on a timer that if noone was looking at it for x amount of time the it disappears, however if an alien finds a fresh body, then they could drag it.
  • N3MES1SN3MES1S Join Date: 2009-07-29 Member: 68303Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1721166:date=Aug 7 2009, 06:47 AM:name=Cheezy104)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cheezy104 @ Aug 7 2009, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bad idea. This would be very boring and time consuming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I'm sorry, I beg to differ, the main incentive of this "chore" as you call it REALLY isn't just to get resource points, but add motivation for untrained marines to stray from the group to prevent aliens desecrating their friend's body. Although some will ignore this chore, it just serves as another part of the gameplay flow that separates the pros from the noobs.
  • N3MES1SN3MES1S Join Date: 2009-07-29 Member: 68303Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1721143:date=Aug 7 2009, 04:42 AM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Aug 7 2009, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its still silly...



    to make it fair for the marines you gotta create a counterpart ability....





    JANITOR-ARMOR ....equipped with this the marine is able to transform into a mini-lorry with crane, to remove dead aliens from the corridors and bring them to the next resource tower to give the marine commander his extra res<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    this is obviously a bad example of a marine counterpart this gameplay function.

    If the marines WERE to have a gameplay counterpart, a marine could just sling the dead marine corpse over his shoulder and become slower as he transports the corpse to a furnace to turn the body into some sort of resource.
  • sheena_yanaisheena_yanai Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1721389:date=Aug 8 2009, 06:56 AM:name=N3MES1S)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (N3MES1S @ Aug 8 2009, 06:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is obviously a bad example of a marine counterpart this gameplay function.

    If the marines WERE to have a gameplay counterpart, a marine could just sling the dead marine corpse over his shoulder and become slower as he transports the corpse to a furnace to turn the body into some sort of resource.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



    and this was sarcasm... i wouldnt really suggest a optimus-"garbage-truck"-prime transforming heavy armor variant if it wasnt for some lulz...
  • NeoSniperNeoSniper Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
    I been hearing a lot about corpse dragging abilities these last few days and have tried to tell people that it's not going to be done in a UWE game.

    I say it because of a particular comment from Charlie that was done years ago now I finally spent like 20 minutes advanced searching for it and I think I found it. So from the man himself...

    <!--quoteo(post=1395386:date=Feb 25 2005, 05:05 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 25 2005, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1395386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ragdolls in Source sound great to me, as long as we didn't add a weapon that allowed you to fling the bodies around make piles out of them. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It was said in good humor but I think the point is clear. And it's not the only example, if you search a bit you will find other post where Charlie states he doesn't want that kind of gore in his games.

    Not that I don't like your ideas just letting you know. I'd love to have a mechanic where players can actively do tasks that bring in extra res besides killing enemies and enemy buildings. Play around with the idea with what you know now.
  • reasareasa Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
    I remember this being talked about in early versions of the original NS and I never liked the idea then. There really is no way to make a marine equivalent of it and even if there was resources are not an organic material and are distributed collectively. Perhaps regaining some small amount of health from making a kill would make sense but not as resources.
  • Real_PUAReal_PUA Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46255Members
    I don't see what this adds to the game. I would like to see the aliens focus on marines that are alive, not dead bodies.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    RFK control adds some nice teamwork and strategy elemetns to individual res pool system (Ensuring skulks score frags, possibly organising ambushes so that hive/fade skulks get a lot of RFK). It might be nice to have some of those elements in NS2 too.

    I don't know whether the RFK should be aquired from the corpse or the actual frag. On the other hand the frag RFK is really challenging, but then again the corpse RFK would allow more control and probably more strategies due to it.
  • General_WarhammerGeneral_Warhammer Join Date: 2009-02-14 Member: 66414Members
    I personally like this idea alot. I do agree with the ideas that an rt can only absord 2 bodies at once.
  • xmainexmaine Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68409Members
    I do not agree with this idea since you already get res for killing a player. A really good skulk player dominating sucking the res out of the marines would instantly go fade and dominate the entire marine team. It also seems too time consuming seeing how this discourages movement and more turtling.
  • mcGowdmcGowd Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68418Members
    ok, there would be perfect balance between marines and aliens if the skulks could drag bodies to resource points.
    I thought this was obvious, but let me explain.
    2-3 skulks battle marines and win, they decide to take the bodies to the res points ( the long drag ).
    Marines act on this realizing that (depending on server size) a portion of the attacking force is now engaged in slowly dragging bodies.
    Acting on this, they push hard taking resource nodes (which give ALOT more resources than bodies) and gaining map control while the little old skulk is dragging away.

    I thought it was obvious?
    risk vs reward. If you use offensive classes to drag for a LITTLE extra res, you open the door for the marines to push against a weaker force gaining more map control/res points. Hence, balanced. Noobs would affect both sides, but you can't base a game off of what noobs do and don't do. Noob skulks dragging bodies the wrong way to the node taking 5 mins with marines assaulting the hive, gg. Marines charging off solo and being zerged down, gg. Both sides would be hit just as hard by noobs.

    To add even more balance, when a skulk is dragging, it pings its location on the commanders overview giving him the option to send marines there to intercept, or better yet, get more nodes forgetting the noob skulk and his pittance worth of res. God forbid adding another role to the hack and slash which is skulk. Marines can repair/build, give the skulks something else also.

    As I said, I thought it was obvious.
  • iPandaiPanda Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68417Members
    The simple answer to this is being able to give marines the counter ability of removing dna samples from aliens, obviously a dna sample wont be as heavy as a whole body so to counteract it make the sampling last longer about 5-6 seconds so solo marines are very vunerable and promotes team work, these sample can then be returend to arms lab. By using the arms lab not the RT it also stops marines getting a resorce spike to early as the arms lab isnt avalable at the start.

    i love the idea of aliens being able to drag corpses but i dont believe it should be skulks as there Stealth and ambush role doesnt go to well with space janitor. but purhaps the gorge could do the job, also with the gorge having the capability to build a harvesting tower simular to a RT and such could be a suggestion so the Long hikes to resorce towers arent to dangerous.

    purhaps a cap to the corpses along with a time limit to stop it looking like a marine buffet table could be a good idea
  • mcGowdmcGowd Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68418Members
    "but purhaps the gorge could do the job"

    It should be a uniquely alien ability. Again as I said in my previous post, if it is a gorge, hes not building, capping nodes etc. So to spend time dragging a body (which everyone's agreed should be slow), there team is suffering the loss of a builder. The balance is simply, the loss of a specialist class doing its role, or a quick meager gain in res.

    At the start the team suffers due to
    a) builders building and half the skulks going gorges to drag. That gimps the team due to no offensive force.
    b) near the end of the game, people stacking on gorge vs using upgraded roles to beat the team.

    TBH, If this ability was available, I would never use it due to its negatives by far out weighing its benefits. That being said, still a good idea which should be built into the game, would be fun coming across a skulk/gorge dragging a corpse making a scraping noise pining its location over mini map.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    If someone can explain how the game mechanics of this can be implemented as not to obstruct gameplay I will not label it a "bad idea".

    So far all I see is it is a distraction, a mini-game. It does not make sense, it's not easy to implement and it's just silly to suggest. "Res 4 kills" makes so much more sense as it requires you to just play the game, this requires you to be a little squirrel trying to find an acorn and put him away for storage.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    The dragging part is quite unnecessary indeed. It adds one decision with a dull option of dragging the body back. I'd much rather have either direct res gain whenever I frag or some kind of ability to gain res from a corpse right where it lies.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    I'll say it again.

    bad idea.

    We want to remove mundane tasks.
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