Lazy Developers! Come on

24

Comments

  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    Wait, wut? Where'd you get that idea?

    Do you have any concept of the cost of renting an office, running their systems, and living expenses in the Bay Area?

    Also, the video barely mentioned UWE as an example group that used another game (Zen of Sudoku) to help bootstrap their operation and the dev team have mentioned they have had "angel investors" who are going to be expecting their money back after release.

    When have there been any indication that they're rolling in the money. If anything, they've been strapped for cash nearly the entire time.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    while i don't really like people ranting, it is a valid point

    IF cost is an issue - surely there are plenty of people here that could whip out 3DSMAX and do up a model here and there which meets the devs expectations and guidlines.
  • SirotSirot Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1719043:date=Jul 23 2009, 06:57 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jul 23 2009, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->while i don't really like people ranting, it is a valid point

    IF cost is an issue - surely there are plenty of people here that could whip out 3DSMAX and do up a model here and there which meets the devs expectations and guidlines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You shouldn't make that assumption unless you are capable of doing those things.
  • CoolCookieCooksCoolCookieCooks Pretty Girl Join Date: 2003-05-18 Member: 16446Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation
    Lets put it this way, would you turn down a dinner your mother made for you? No. UWE is making this game for you, dont turn this down either.

    Dont even pick out the mushrooms if you dont like them.
  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Members, Constellation
    edited July 2009
    I don't know if its about being lazy- we can't know because there isn't enough info.

    The matter at hand is about the looming deadline. They have 2 months to ship. Now, to me, an untested concept with complexity like this stun gun idea does seem a little rash and ill conceived. The pistol and knife are such basic well established elements that they should have these BY DEFAULT. Why by default? Because they have 2 MONTHS!!!! If they really want to do the stun gun concept, do it later. Of course, if they put out the knife and pistol once people will want to go back for it. Well, why not both (eg: let the user decide to equip with knife/pistol or stun gun) in the game.

    You and I cannot know how this concept would play out in the game, it could be a LOT of fun and it could make things really interesting. But what we do know is that they have very little time and such an experimental concept without a backup plan and so little time is quite a risk. They can ALWAYS put out patches as expansion packs... you know market it as the NS2 Booster Pack 1 or something and time it with their free weekends/deals or whatever.

    Just get it done, would it really be less energy to go through with this taser thing or just do an updated knife and pistol with minimal troubleshooting?
  • ASnogarDASnogarD Join Date: 2003-10-24 Member: 21894Members
    edited July 2009
    Personally I took it as just some banter , I mean whats the chances of Flayra and co removing HEAVY ARMOUR from NS... its on par with taking the Gorge out, no one really liked that alien right ?

    Its just a way to keep the chat personal and friendly without the cold technical / market speech , you rather some degree carrying market pro pretend he actually knows you and what you want...or a dev trying to be amusing and friendly ?

    My proof ... look at NS 1 , it was a mod given out for free , but does it show any signs of a lazy dev group mindset ?
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1719048:date=Jul 24 2009, 12:03 AM:name=CoolCookieCooks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CoolCookieCooks @ Jul 24 2009, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lets put it this way, would you turn down a dinner your mother made for you? No. UWE is making this game for you, dont turn this down either.

    Dont even pick out the mushrooms if you dont like them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I live with my mother and the rare occasion she will cook for me, I will snap it right up!
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    edited July 2009
    Post removed for Taser.
  • SekerSeker Join Date: 2007-03-06 Member: 60259Members
    edited July 2009
    Guys, heavy should maybe go and be replaced with something more gameplay changing ? exoskeleton ? anyone?

    1/3 old 1/3 new and 1/3 improved.

    where you thought that 1/3 new would come in ?



    And Heavy is quite nice but if they replace it with something even better, bye bye heavy, it was a nice time.
  • Ryo-OhkiRyo-Ohki Join Date: 2009-03-26 Member: 66917Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1718983:date=Jul 24 2009, 05:46 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Jul 24 2009, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I remember correctly, there were concerns about Heavy Armor from the developers. I believe they said it didn't provide enough of a gameplay change to warrant the amount of developer resources it requires to implement. All the heavy armor did was increase the amount of armor a Marine had, which just encouraged the spamming of welders and marines walking in a blob. There is much more gameplay variation found in the jetpack, for example.

    EDIT: Changed my entire post. I was way too mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I must disagree with this. A Heavy train does force a major gameplay change for both sides. Once that train starts rolling, the entire course of the game revolves around it. The Marines know that if those Heavies reach a hive, in all likelihood the Hive will die, and a game they were losing suddenly turns around. The Alien's focus becomes the Heavies to the exclusion of all else; it's no good harassing nodes if the Heavies aren't stopped and lifeforms that work against light armour Marines (skulks, Lerks, Fades) become either less useful or nearly completely useless. The Aliens have to think fast and adapt if they're going to stop the Heavies. Of course if they do stop them, the Marine team is usually broke and cannot finance a new Heavy train. The Aliens will then easily run them over.

    Personally I find games where the Marines do end up going Heavy to be much more entertaining and action packed than when they go Jetpacks. Removing Heavies from NS2 is as heretical to me as removing the Onos would have been.
  • ShalrathShalrath Join Date: 2009-04-20 Member: 67237Members
    "But you guys have way more money and resources than many mods who are excited to model, animate, and create new game elements FOR FREE, and in their SPARE TIME."

    Alright, they'll do it that way.

    Now you can enjoy NS2 in 2013!
  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Members
    edited July 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1719066:date=Jul 23 2009, 07:07 PM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jul 23 2009, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I find games where the Marines do end up going Heavy to be much more entertaining and action packed than when they go Jetpacks. Removing Heavies from NS2 is as heretical to me as removing the Onos would have been.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Absolutely agree. I'm almost always alone when i ask the com to research HA. Their's just something about the less-dieing aspect of heavy armor that attracts me... even in CO lol. (sometimes i go GL + HA to annoy the veteran NS players xD)

    Back in the day it was always about getting JP's because flying/dieing was better then walking/dieing... Well now i think WINNING/walking is better then flying/dieing, and that calls for the SAW, and the HA :P

    And yes there are those maps where JP is the only choice... But it just seems that JP is random people going rambo with a hmg... but a heavy rush puts you in constant contact with your team because everyone is relying on everyone else to weld them. It's just more fun to be part of a heavy train then anything else you can do in NS IMHO.

    But what might seem contradictory,... i do prefer having a JP in the ready room :P

    Will we now see an entire heavy train marching down the hall with their magical tasers emitting a shield... zzz the future is incomprehensible to us mere immortals.
  • ljcrabsljcrabs Join Date: 2007-11-15 Member: 62924Members
    Isn't this kind of arguing work hard instead of work smart? By the same logic you might as well go amish.
  • BadMouthBadMouth It ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titl Join Date: 2004-05-21 Member: 28815Members
    There is a difference between being lazy, and being efficient and economical. I don't think you would seriously blame somebody taking a shortcut if they reach the same point, only faster. I'm saying that the Devs wouldn't probably sacrifice gameplay just so they get things easier. I'm sure all these things are thought through properly. Of course there is a chance they didn't think through things

    But, I think it is ridiculous that we are all commenting on this and bashing UWE before we even see the finished product. so, I think we should just pull back, and relax until the game comes out.

    Where is Comprox? This feels like a lock thread.
  • kickerkicker Join Date: 2007-09-22 Member: 62397Members, Constellation
    tbh...i was expecting the release of the alpha version around the end of july / august ...but i dont care if it takes one month more or less to finish the game ...because i want to play this ###### game xD

    UWE ...keep up the good work !
  • ShazbotShazbot Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14328Members
    I'm a big fan of NS, and I've had my doubts about NS2 recently...

    When I read about the possible removal of Heavy armor because of cost issues, I was frankly disgusted. Then I thought that he must not be completely serious, or thought of it as more of an extreme hypothetical possibility. I have high hopes for NS2. I'm just hoping I get a game thats better looking, and more importantly better playing than NS1.

    FYI, I bought the $40 version, since I felt I wanted to give a little extra for all the fun I had with NS1. If NS2 fails completely, I won't feel cheated, just disappointed. I really don't see how this game is going to be released this year from the info that's been released, but call me a pessimist! :D
  • PseudoKnightPseudoKnight Join Date: 2002-06-18 Member: 791Members
    This is the thanks they get for sharing. Welcome to game development. This is how it works. Chill out.
  • Sumo-SoldierSumo-Soldier Join Date: 2009-07-24 Member: 68249Members
    ill be honest..i was a bit scared for the game when he mentioned that they were all 'minimalists'. i love this game too much for it to go down and burn in flames just cause they cut a few corners. As a fan its only normal for u to be concerned. And i really hope they can pull it off with such a small team. they've got my support already.
  • DarkFrostDarkFrost Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1718941:date=Jul 23 2009, 05:09 PM:name=Earth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Earth @ Jul 23 2009, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand you don't have a huge surplus of money, but COME ON! Taking out heavies shouldn't have even crossed your minds!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Why exactly?

    I could guess, thats its the same reason for every other thread about a change, but I'd like you to tell us the reasoning behind this comment.
  • RhodriRhodri Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17575Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1719043:date=Jul 23 2009, 05:57 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jul 23 2009, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->while i don't really like people ranting, it is a valid point

    IF cost is an issue - surely there are plenty of people here that could whip out 3DSMAX and do up a model here and there which meets the devs expectations and guidlines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    While that may well be true, you're missing the big fact that as this is a commercial product now there would be all sorts of legal hoops to jump through in order to make sure people gave permission for their models copywright to be held by UWE and be used for comercial gain etc. This would mean a contract would need to be drawn up - therefor requiring a laywer and costs anyway. Also fully building a working model and getting it in game isn't quick and easy at all. I tend to set aside at least a month for a bipedal model. (Weapons and structures are easier, granted.)

    All in all I think UWE is doing the right thing mainly (though I do think it would help them to have one on site modeller/animator - though I'm guessing not an option due to costs).
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1719120:date=Jul 24 2009, 04:14 AM:name=Shazbot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shazbot @ Jul 24 2009, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a big fan of NS, and I've had my doubts about NS2 recently...

    When I read about the possible removal of Heavy armor because of cost issues, I was frankly disgusted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The orig removal wasn't due to cost issues, that's just what people are assuming. The reasons the devs were stating at the time they first mentioned it:
    1.) more armor for less speed isn't an interesting trade off
    2.) it would be replaced by a more maneuverable exoskeleton
  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1719152:date=Jul 24 2009, 09:24 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jul 24 2009, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The orig removal wasn't due to cost issues, that's just what people are assuming. The reasons the devs were stating at the time they first mentioned it:
    1.) more armor for less speed isn't an interesting trade off
    2.) it would be replaced by a more maneuverable exoskeleton<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So just make the heavy move faster then a regular marine... and be more armored... works for me lol . But people want it to be called "heavy" or it just seems like cybernetics + reinforced armor in some retarded CO battle.
  • S!KS!K Join Date: 2009-07-03 Member: 68024Members
    I don't know. He's right about the quotes. I said the same thing in another topic. Those quotes can be very disappointing. But let me point one thing out: If you've played portal, you would realize how easy it would be for these 5 or so guys to create that game. The textures are pretty limited... very limited actually, there is only one gun (or 2 if you consider having two portals is two guns), there are no pick-ups (meds, armor, souvenirs, candy, poop), and the game can be pretty redundant.

    NOW, when you beat the game, just look at the list of how many people it took to create that game. Hmmm, that's when I was like. HOW THE F*** ARE 5 GUYS ONLY WORKING ON NS2.

    To be honest, I do hate how they keep c*** teasing us with these little drawings, and no screenshots, and a retarded video about the onos.

    I would just like to see some more hands on action. Seriously, I would be a lot more satisfied with a video showing them shooting an lmg, or a skulk walking, jumping, crawling around, or a gorge wagging his fat tale, or a marine getting attacked by a skulk or w/e.

    Truth is, I just don't think they have any of this completed yet. If they did, I wouldn't see why they wouldn't release these videos, because then I would feel safer in actually dishing out the 40 bucks, like many of you. My brother and I have played counter-strike since day one, and then NS1 since day one. Obviously that was different considering these were mods and were free, but c'mon. I just want to see some more teaser videos like you see in every other game, which sometimes come out about a year before the game itself is released.

    I just want a TASTE of how this game really looks. I know how cool the maps can look, but I don't have any idea how anything else would look in action. For instance, on the one video cast where they show dynamic lighting, I saw a dumb looking marine model doing the iron cross. Lol... wtf.

    SHOW US HOW SEXY NS2 IS REALLY GOING TO BE! Then, I might just have to sell my ass for the 40 bucks.
  • Raza.Raza. Join Date: 2004-01-24 Member: 25663Members, Constellation
    Oh come on, the game is in pre-alpha stage.
    Show me a trailer from a big studio with actual ingame footage of pre-alpha content.
    Doubt you'll find one.
  • VenAppleVenApple Join Date: 2009-07-24 Member: 68255Members
    Guess I'm selfish or confused, but I'd have already pre-ordered if I was ensured 100% compatibility with Steam.
  • BadMouthBadMouth It ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titl Join Date: 2004-05-21 Member: 28815Members
    Ns2 has already released a teaser. I don't know what you're complaining about. And if you think about it, I think what you want is a proper trailer, not a teaser. Most teasers, show you nothing about gameplay, and only give u a CGI of something in the game. There are some teasers, which only show landscape, and then the title. So in term of teaser quality, NS2 is not at the high end, but its also not bad either.

    To make a proper trailer would be too time consuming, especially since they have such a small team. I think we should wait till after the beta is out and when they have less work to do, then we expect the gameplay trailer.
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    edited July 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1719016:date=Jul 23 2009, 10:23 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Jul 23 2009, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They need to delay the alpha as long as possible. They need to get the game as close to playable before they allow us buggers try it out. Alpha's are usually not public because they are very rough and that would give a lot of people here a bad impression. People are criminally quick to judge when regarding games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Alpha testing is exactly about that kind of critical judgement, because Alpha testing comes early enough that things aren't set in stone. UWE doesn't have an in-house testing team. AFAIK they have no single person dedicated mainly to testing. Unless they do invitational testing or even open house testing, they're unlikely to get the right kind of feedback from non-biased users representative of the future playerbase.
  • SirotSirot Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1719270:date=Jul 25 2009, 06:44 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jul 25 2009, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alpha testing is exactly about that kind of critical judgement, because Alpha testing comes early enough that things aren't set in stone. UWE doesn't have an in-house testing team. AFAIK they have no single person dedicated mainly to testing. Unless they do invitational testing or even open house testing, they're unlikely to get the right kind of feedback from non-biased users representative of the future playerbase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    We know nothing about the game and people are already giving the game critical judgement. I don't see people having a change of heart for the alpha.
  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
    The scrapped heavy armor comment is very worrying if you think about it. Basically , NS2 content would be completely tied to UWE's limited resources , which are *supposed* to increase as the game becomes popular. Problem is , so much of the community already pre-ordered for 40$ so future profits are anyone's guess. If NS2 ends up with important features cut short , pre-orderers expecting the same quality of gameplay and content from NS1 will be disappointed and may not encourage their friends (typically also former NS players) to buy it. This means less resources for UWE to expand on the game , and relying 100% on modders for that - results may vary...

    So UWE really has one shot with NS2 development. It needs to deliver awe even for alpha testing , gameplay may be whack but the feel must overwhelm playtesters.
    This is why I don't push for an early release - take as much time as required to perfect NS , by any means necessary. You can't afford to release the game pre-nerfed.
  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    A note:
    Everyone seems to be assuming that all that money they have raked in via preorders goes directly to development costs. Most likely a significant portion of that goes to their investors.
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