Idea for Offense Chamber
Hawkeye
Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1855Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Offense Chamber evolved</div>I was thinking about the offense chamber in natural selection 1 and some of the issues they caused.
<b>Issue #1:</b>
Stacking - Aliens were able to stack offense chambers and make them a general nuisance not because offense chambers were particularly effective defense more than they were the cheapest ways to build bloccades.
<b>Proposal:</b>
The offense chambers should deter marine agggression, but not because they'd be reaching a dead end but because it would likely cause them to wind up being dead.
<b>Issue #2:</b>
Deplenishing returns - In most cases, the effectiveness of 4 offense chambers was not twice the effectiveness of 2 offense chambers. Most of the time it meant that beyond one offense chamber, marines typically stay back and shoot until they are destroyed which meant rarely were they in the situation to be killed with more of such chambers and not killed with less chambers unless marines don't play smart and simply rush. In the end, it implies that the marines have complete control over how to approach the chamber and which tradeoff they wish to lose to proceed (health vs ammo).
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should be twice as effective with twice the number of offense chambers in both the fact that it acts as a deterant from attacks and the fact that it kills effectively the target.
<b>Issue #3:</b>
Playing against marine strength - Long distance is the game of the marines, not the Kharaa. An offense chamber which can attack from a distance is advantageous, though its effectiveness is only proportionate to the distance its target stays from the chamber, whereas a human player can hit targets from long distances with little or no loss in precision making the old offense chamber easy to fool.
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should play against marine weakness, which is to say that a marine should get more than one needle and 20 health loss when taken by surprise by an offense chamber which wasn't there before.
<b>Issue #4:</b>
Ineffective against rambo tactics - Aggressive rush-ins by marines should not be an effective tactic against Kharaa defense. Only careful planning and a vigilant eye should be able to advance into Kharaa territory without dying. The old offense chamber can simply be avoided unless otherwise stacked and the marine cannot circumnavigate.
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should punish unwary marines and should at least deter wary marines.
My idea for a new offense chamber should resolve all four issues. If the old chamber is still desired, both can be made available as they both have their advantages. This chamber is meant to not simply deter an attacking marine but to actually kill him if the marine is not paying close attention.
My proposal is to create a new chamber which is bulb-like and very easily disguised in the infestation with a small opening towards the top. They can be placed anywhere where there's infestation and do not block movement of alien players. The bulb remains passive until a marine passes in its path, in which case the bulb opens up and quickly skewers anything in its path and remains open for 3 seconds time. This skewering inflicts damage, but not fatal damage for a vanilla marine, however it does completely disable that marine for the full extent of the 3 seconds time, allowing any Kharaa to have an easy kill. These bulbs can be stacked in that more than one can be attached to the walls and ceiling in such a way that they'd activate at the same time and the damage will be inflicted for as many times as there are bulbs which have damaged the target.
I'm thinking that initial damage would be something around the order of 75 damage, which would be clearly fatal for a vanilla marine hit by two at the same time. It would discourage rambo tactics as it would cause a player to be very vigilant in regions in which there is infestation. In some cases, the bulbs might even be hidden around corners so that they cannot be hit, which would require that a marine either sacrifice himself so that the others could take down the bulbs or that a grenade launcher be used to take them out.
The bulbs would have a fixed range, though both the damage and the amount of time in which they disable a marine may be upgradeable.
Bulbs can be taken down easily by marine fire and should have half the amount of health of an old offense chamber.
What do you think? Any further suggestions?
<b>Issue #1:</b>
Stacking - Aliens were able to stack offense chambers and make them a general nuisance not because offense chambers were particularly effective defense more than they were the cheapest ways to build bloccades.
<b>Proposal:</b>
The offense chambers should deter marine agggression, but not because they'd be reaching a dead end but because it would likely cause them to wind up being dead.
<b>Issue #2:</b>
Deplenishing returns - In most cases, the effectiveness of 4 offense chambers was not twice the effectiveness of 2 offense chambers. Most of the time it meant that beyond one offense chamber, marines typically stay back and shoot until they are destroyed which meant rarely were they in the situation to be killed with more of such chambers and not killed with less chambers unless marines don't play smart and simply rush. In the end, it implies that the marines have complete control over how to approach the chamber and which tradeoff they wish to lose to proceed (health vs ammo).
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should be twice as effective with twice the number of offense chambers in both the fact that it acts as a deterant from attacks and the fact that it kills effectively the target.
<b>Issue #3:</b>
Playing against marine strength - Long distance is the game of the marines, not the Kharaa. An offense chamber which can attack from a distance is advantageous, though its effectiveness is only proportionate to the distance its target stays from the chamber, whereas a human player can hit targets from long distances with little or no loss in precision making the old offense chamber easy to fool.
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should play against marine weakness, which is to say that a marine should get more than one needle and 20 health loss when taken by surprise by an offense chamber which wasn't there before.
<b>Issue #4:</b>
Ineffective against rambo tactics - Aggressive rush-ins by marines should not be an effective tactic against Kharaa defense. Only careful planning and a vigilant eye should be able to advance into Kharaa territory without dying. The old offense chamber can simply be avoided unless otherwise stacked and the marine cannot circumnavigate.
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should punish unwary marines and should at least deter wary marines.
My idea for a new offense chamber should resolve all four issues. If the old chamber is still desired, both can be made available as they both have their advantages. This chamber is meant to not simply deter an attacking marine but to actually kill him if the marine is not paying close attention.
My proposal is to create a new chamber which is bulb-like and very easily disguised in the infestation with a small opening towards the top. They can be placed anywhere where there's infestation and do not block movement of alien players. The bulb remains passive until a marine passes in its path, in which case the bulb opens up and quickly skewers anything in its path and remains open for 3 seconds time. This skewering inflicts damage, but not fatal damage for a vanilla marine, however it does completely disable that marine for the full extent of the 3 seconds time, allowing any Kharaa to have an easy kill. These bulbs can be stacked in that more than one can be attached to the walls and ceiling in such a way that they'd activate at the same time and the damage will be inflicted for as many times as there are bulbs which have damaged the target.
I'm thinking that initial damage would be something around the order of 75 damage, which would be clearly fatal for a vanilla marine hit by two at the same time. It would discourage rambo tactics as it would cause a player to be very vigilant in regions in which there is infestation. In some cases, the bulbs might even be hidden around corners so that they cannot be hit, which would require that a marine either sacrifice himself so that the others could take down the bulbs or that a grenade launcher be used to take them out.
The bulbs would have a fixed range, though both the damage and the amount of time in which they disable a marine may be upgradeable.
Bulbs can be taken down easily by marine fire and should have half the amount of health of an old offense chamber.
What do you think? Any further suggestions?
Comments
This is an arguable proposal. I happen to agree that this should be a goal.
<!--quoteo(post=1714705:date=Jun 29 2009, 10:50 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 29 2009, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Deplenishing returns - In most cases, the effectiveness of 4 offense chambers was not twice the effectiveness of 2 offense chambers. Most of the time it meant that beyond one offense chamber, marines typically stay back and shoot until they are destroyed which meant rarely were they in the situation to be killed with more of such chambers and not killed with less chambers unless marines don't play smart and simply rush. In the end, it implies that the marines have complete control over how to approach the chamber and which tradeoff they wish to lose to proceed (health vs ammo).
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should be twice as effective with twice the number of offense chambers in both the fact that it acts as a deterant from attacks and the fact that it kills effectively the target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI, the world you're looking for is "diminishing". My proposal is to have more types of offense chambers that complement each other. For example there could be a "gas chamber" that hits the marine crouching around the corner, but does less damage. This could also make chambers more effective against single marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1714705:date=Jun 29 2009, 10:50 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 29 2009, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playing against marine strength - Long distance is the game of the marines, not the Kharaa. An offense chamber which can attack from a distance is advantageous, though its effectiveness is only proportionate to the distance its target stays from the chamber, whereas a human player can hit targets from long distances with little or no loss in precision making the old offense chamber easy to fool.
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should play against marine weakness, which is to say that a marine should get more than one needle and 20 health loss when taken by surprise by an offense chamber which wasn't there before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the OC should do more damage. I think they should still be "dodge-able" on some level. I don't agree with your premise, but don't disagree with your conclusion either.
<!--quoteo(post=1714705:date=Jun 29 2009, 10:50 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 29 2009, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ineffective against rambo tactics - Aggressive rush-ins by marines should not be an effective tactic against Kharaa defense. Only careful planning and a vigilant eye should be able to advance into Kharaa territory without dying. The old offense chamber can simply be avoided unless otherwise stacked and the marine cannot circumnavigate.
<b>Proposal:</b>
The new offense chamber should punish unwary marines and should at least deter wary marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think aggressive rush ins should be effective, but either suffer losses or require overwhelming force. I agree OC's should be more effective against lone marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1714705:date=Jun 29 2009, 10:50 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 29 2009, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My idea for a new offense chamber should resolve all four issues. If the old chamber is still desired, both can be made available as they both have their advantages. This chamber is meant to not simply deter an attacking marine but to actually kill him if the marine is not paying close attention.
My proposal is to create a new chamber which is bulb-like and very easily disguised in the infestation with a small opening towards the top. They can be placed anywhere where there's infestation and do not block movement of alien players. The bulb remains passive until a marine passes in its path, in which case the bulb opens up and quickly skewers anything in its path and remains open for 3 seconds time. This skewering inflicts damage, but not fatal damage for a vanilla marine, however it does completely disable that marine for the full extent of the 3 seconds time, allowing any Kharaa to have an easy kill. These bulbs can be stacked in that more than one can be attached to the walls and ceiling in such a way that they'd activate at the same time and the damage will be inflicted for as many times as there are bulbs which have damaged the target.
I'm thinking that initial damage would be something around the order of 75 damage, which would be clearly fatal for a vanilla marine hit by two at the same time. It would discourage rambo tactics as it would cause a player to be very vigilant in regions in which there is infestation. In some cases, the bulbs might even be hidden around corners so that they cannot be hit, which would require that a marine either sacrifice himself so that the others could take down the bulbs or that a grenade launcher be used to take them out.
The bulbs would have a fixed range, though both the damage and the amount of time in which they disable a marine may be upgradeable.
Bulbs can be taken down easily by marine fire and should have half the amount of health of an old offense chamber.
What do you think? Any further suggestions?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I like that idea. It's very similar to a marine mine, but it complements regular OC's well and would be relatively easy to avoid by a good marine.
I'd like to see some way of combining the typical OC idea with the mine/web idea. Like an OC that has a tripwire. Within infested areas for instance, an OC, or as mentioned above, an alternative OC, is hidden within the infestation. When you plant it as a gorge (and you can plant it anywhere in the infestation like a mine), you get to place a tripwire. Maybe the AC (alternate chamber??) can be placed where you're looking and the trip wire is where you're standing. Limit it to infestation and you don't get to "mine" the marine start point until endgame. Make it half hitpoints of normal OC (or less), die if the infestation retreats, half the damage, and half the res to build.
You can't see or attack the AC until it pops out of the infestation. And it won't do that until you stand on the tripwire.
Marine walks down corridor, trips AC, gets a face full of needles from Chamber's he didn't know were there. Or... he runs over the AC, then hits the tripwire... needles in the back... Or make them sensitive to other buildings.... AC doesn't activate until another chamber is attacked? marines storm hive... start shooting.... BAM, ACs blocks the exit... wasn't exepcting that! Or the AC is linked to another OC, when the OC fires, the AC fires too.
Maybe make the trip wire sticky, or make the AC's slow movement.
Changing the AC placement and tripwire placement would change what it's function is, and in turn change the strategy to counter it.
Issue #1 - It doesn't block the way, cause it's within infestation
Issue #2 - Not only is 2 chambers popping out of nowhere doubly effective, their strategic placement can further compliment each other (AC in front activates, you retreat back around the corner... oh no! Another AC that wasn't there moments ago!)
Issue #3 - Plays to alien strength... ambush.
Issue #4 - Standing back and grenade spamming isn't always going to work. You'll have to trip the wire to make the chamber vulnerable, then attack, but someone's gonna get hurt.
I'd like to raise
issue #5 - 100 OC's is no match for a single grenade launcher. The marine player gets to take it out with impunity. An AC that only pops out when you're tripping it would defeat bouncing grenades behind cover... A marine could use a partner to trip the AC just as he fires, but he'd want to do it quick cause his guy is gonna die. Marines can defeat an AC trap once they're aware of it, but it's going to cost them something, even if it's just a few res from a dead light marine or two.
Idf like going into detail atm
Liking the suggested ideas but to add something to the fun.
Base OC works similar to NS1 but is upgradable to stuff like the following (but not ALL of them)
-flak- OC rounds explodes at point where marines was when the round was fired shooting needles (alien flak) in multiple directions
-explosive- (deals splash damage around impact)
-Spore- (see lerk in NS1)
-umbra-(see lerk in NS1)
-smoke- (kind of like shooting thick umbra but simply a visual effect)
-flash- (well... glowies do that anyway)
-ink- (like smoke but simply emiting from the chamber when touched or fired upon by marines)
my imagination has high flow today... but no necesarily quality :P
Also some of these might be good ideas for mine types the gorge can place.
NS2 tower defense mod.
I'm thinking in terms of balance and what type of playing style I'd like to encourage and which type of playing style I'd like to discourage.
Lol? What makes you think I take that stance?
In fact, my suggestion was that someone could *make* a tower defense mod, GIVEN that the (many) towers *already* do as locally suggests, hence I'm <b>supporting</b> <i>his</i> idea.
<i>small edit - the -> his</i>
Dude.. Yes... OMG!
Though that's not to say that any of these ideas are bad. I only thought that the vanilla offense chamber should be what I mentioned, that is to say, a sort of trap rather than a long distance automaton.
How about a poison stinger chamber? An almost instant hit projectile shot just like the OC spikes. However, the spikes slow target down by some 50-75% for a second or two and prevent jumping. The marine firepower remains the same. Once marine is hit, he loses practically all his ability to dodge and progress to any cover far away, leaving him at the mercy of OCs, skulk ambushes, spore, spit and whatever the aliens decide to throw at him.
The effect means basically that a single marine can't just run by OCs and even a group gets distracted and any intentional positioning easily breaks even if a single marine gets slowed. Still, the marines can effectively push through as long as they are able to overcome the momentarily lack of dodging and endure some extra damage from spore, spikes and spit.
The idea is to give aliens a building that contributes to the OC defense, but doesn't need to be spammed and isn't effective alone. The effect acts more as fight support than a decider by a complete paralysis.
Therefore, I think that your proposal is lacking other specifications. I do think that such a chamber would be a good idea to the game. However, I think that it would need to be something a lot more expensive for an alien to drop if it's going to be that effective. Doing 75 damage is too much. If they were to implement this concept, then I think that the only way that it would keep the game balanced would be to give them a very low health, therefore making the marine be able to kill it with more ease than the usual offense chamber, or make it 30-40 res to drop these. This is because if you drop 2 of them in the same room and the marine misses it, they would pretty much die instantly, or within the 3 seconds that the skewers pop out of the bulb.
Good idea though. I'll be very happy to see new things coming into NS2, as long as it keeps the game balanced mainly.
Bacillus, you're forgetting that if marines wanted it badly enough, they could rush and let the lead man take the death whlie the others pass by / kill the existing bulbs. I would personally prefer your poison stinger idea over the old offense chamber anyday of the week, though I also think you're forgetting that for the most part, the way marines would destroy such a poison stinger chamber would be exactly the same as an offense chamber in that they'd stay at a distance and shoot it. It only adds dynamic to the game if marines are caught by surprise. Ultimately the point is this though, isn't it? Marines play well when they're not in an ambush situation and inversely the Kharaa play well when they're in an ambush situation. What reasons are there to have similar chambers in ns2 as there are in ns1? We're not talking about game balance, because ns2 hasn't even been released yet. We can change gameplay entirely if we wanted. It's my personal opinion that my idea would play better to the strengths of the Kharaa and support general marine teamplay, all of which seem to be traits that I'd like to see in NS2.
I don't think the alien defense needs to be a surprise anyway. Defense should be something to buy some extra time against the momentarily stronger enemy. In NS' case aliens were sometimes able to stall the marines and get the 2nd hive up or gain advantage through their superior economy.
So, aliens for example tech up --> marines decide to push the alien tech before it finishes --> the tech room has got 2 OCs and a stinger --> an interesting fight with a few chambers spicing it up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bacillus, you're forgetting that if marines wanted it badly enough, they could rush and let the lead man take the death whlie the others pass by / kill the existing bulbs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never liked direct sacrifices. Basic teamwork shouldn't be rewarded by almost certain death, not at least regularly.
3 well based bulbs will negate 3 marines almost certainly in a chaotic situation. At least I can't see why aliens wouldn't place a few bulbs near the doorways. As long as the bulbs aren't right next to each other, they're all going to get a brand new marine victim.
As for the alien chambers in general, I really liked the nature of OC. It's a combination of speed bumb, light ranged support and meat shield rolled into one. At least I can't think of any other multi purposed and yet simple awesomenss like that. With some rework it could become an interesting support for the alien defence.
Interesting postition, I don't think I agree though. Some of the most intense moments of NS1 were performing "life-risking" manoeuvres for the good of the team. Things like fade blocking, pg building, feint offensives at an area away from the second hive are all likely death scenarios that are done in sacrifice to furthering the team. You can survive though these scenarios, just like enough marines could switch absorbing damage from a group of OC's to keep them all alive, but they are high risk.
I definitely agree with those examples, but turning sacrifices into routine manouvre against static defense isn't something I'd like to see. Intense decisions and sacrifices on varying quick situations are absolutely awesome, but I don't want to see situations where 5 marines are looking at each other and thinking "Who's gonna go trigger it?".
<b>Issue #1:</b>
Stacking - Aliens were able to stack offense chambers and make them a general nuisance not because offense chambers were particularly effective defense more than they were the cheapest ways to build bloccades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Generally poor alien strategy, for the reasons you mention below.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Issue #2:</b>
Deplenishing returns - In most cases, the effectiveness of 4 offense chambers was not twice the effectiveness of 2 offense chambers. Most of the time it meant that beyond one offense chamber, marines typically stay back and shoot until they are destroyed which meant rarely were they in the situation to be killed with more of such chambers and not killed with less chambers unless marines don't play smart and simply rush. In the end, it implies that the marines have complete control over how to approach the chamber and which tradeoff they wish to lose to proceed (health vs ammo).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Intelligent placement handles this rather well. Hint: Maps contain lots of twisty corners and other areas where a marine entering can be spiked by multiple chambers simultaneously AND not be able to draw a bead on the group.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Issue #3:</b>
Playing against marine strength - Long distance is the game of the marines, not the Kharaa. An offense chamber which can attack from a distance is advantageous, though its effectiveness is only proportionate to the distance its target stays from the chamber, whereas a human player can hit targets from long distances with little or no loss in precision making the old offense chamber easy to fool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, intelligent placement mostly handles this problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Issue #4:</b>
Ineffective against rambo tactics - Aggressive rush-ins by marines should not be an effective tactic against Kharaa defense. Only careful planning and a vigilant eye should be able to advance into Kharaa territory without dying. The old offense chamber can simply be avoided unless otherwise stacked and the marine cannot circumnavigate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, intelligent placement can deal with this in most circumstances.
To me, it sounds like the problem you're encountering is gorges who think a great big pile of OCs is awesome-sauce. This isn't a problem so much as it is part of the skill curve of NS, IMO. The OC wall (or better, OC-DC wall) is a useful structure sometimes, but good gorges tend to avoid this structure because it's so easy to be taken out (either slowly by potshots, as you suggest, or with grenade fire) and instead spread their OC's out to hit an entering marine either from multiple points upon their entry into a room, or in a long string of single OCs which marines will, more often than not, simply try to run by trusting that the small damage the OC does won't be a concern.. I don't know how many marines I've killed when they realize half way down the hall that they've been under fire from 1 or 2 separate OCs all through their run.
The problem with your suggestion is that it more or less eliminates the use of OCs to slow the enemy, going instead for killing them. You say that they'll be slowed because they'll be cautious, but lets be honest, that's bull crap. Knowing that marines could place mines didn't make the Kharaa any more cautious until they actually saw one, and even then, it only slowed them down until they could destroy it. Given the marine's range advantage, any melee type static defense is going to be eliminated within seconds after discovery. Your thought of placing it around corners so they can't be shot at without sacrificing yourself is exactly what "intelligent placement" of the current OC involves.. and how often does that happen? So how often will it happen with the kharaa mines? (And that ignores the question of how the hell do you place the thing to aim across a corridor while still not being able to be shot from just inside the same corridor.)
Also, remember that one of the new weapons is probably going to be flamethrower. That means a quick sweep run would wipe out any sort of melee based OC without even slowing the group down.
So, creative idea, but not one I think that would work well in practice.
Ever played TF2 with more than one sandman against you? Well, that ###### sucks. Having "stuns" simply isn't fun. Playing games is done for the fun of it, not for being frustrated over annoying gameplay mechanics. Stuns chops up gameplay AND makes you lose control over your character.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once again, intelligent placement can deal with this in most circumstances.
To me, it sounds like the problem you're encountering is gorges who think a great big pile of OCs is awesome-sauce. This isn't a problem so much as it is part of the skill curve of NS, IMO. The OC wall (or better, OC-DC wall) is a useful structure sometimes, but good gorges tend to avoid this structure because it's so easy to be taken out (either slowly by potshots, as you suggest, or with grenade fire) and instead spread their OC's out to hit an entering marine either from multiple points upon their entry into a room, or in a long string of single OCs which marines will, more often than not, simply try to run by trusting that the small damage the OC does won't be a concern.. I don't know how many marines I've killed when they realize half way down the hall that they've been under fire from 1 or 2 separate OCs all through their run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a big part of it, but you have to realize that for a vanilla marine to die by an oc chamber, he or she would have to take around 6 spikes, and the time it takes an oc chamber to fire off 6 spikes is about 10 seconds time, which means this is the minimum amount of time it takes for a marine with full health to be downed. Even then, we're not even talking about an upgraded marine, just your standard vanilla marine.
You don't strike me as dumb, and I'd be willing to bet if you died by an oc chamber from being exposed to one for 10 seconds, it was because you had a valid reason. I make it a habit of checking corners for aliens or any other potential hazards, and I think most veterans do as well. For me to die by an oc chamber, it'd have to be because I was avoiding the skulk which came up behind me. On average, I'd be willing to bet intelligent placement will get you at most 2 spikes to a marine who has no idea of its location and if you're lucky, 1 spike to a marine which does. It's a fluke when an oc chamber has placement which allows it to strike the marine and cannot be struck back by that same marine. Any further damage in my opinion is completely circumstantial and depends not on oc placement but other hazards.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with your suggestion is that it more or less eliminates the use of OCs to slow the enemy, going instead for killing them. You say that they'll be slowed because they'll be cautious, but lets be honest, that's bull crap. Knowing that marines could place mines didn't make the Kharaa any more cautious until they actually saw one, and even then, it only slowed them down until they could destroy it. Given the marine's range advantage, any melee type static defense is going to be eliminated within seconds after discovery.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I play the intelligent placement card. If these bulbs were placed around corners, it's evidently more difficult to destroy within seconds. I'd expect to see these types of oc chambers placed in the open only by inexperienced gorge players (or hive commander as you prefer). If done right, if you made the assumption that taking out a bulb is just a matter of placing yourself such that the bulbs are visible at an angle while staying out of range, the last thought to run through your head as a splinter goes through your skull is realize the flaw in that logic as the bulb on the opposite wall was meant to skewer anyone who thought they could pull that off.
After a few frustrating trials and errors, you'd learn that yes, unfortunately, only caution is going to let you pass certain barriers without dying.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your thought of placing it around corners so they can't be shot at without sacrificing yourself is exactly what "intelligent placement" of the current OC involves.. and how often does that happen? So how often will it happen with the kharaa mines? (And that ignores the question of how the hell do you place the thing to aim across a corridor while still not being able to be shot from just inside the same corridor.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason most players don't outright expose themselves to offense chambers as it stands now is the simple fact that they'd die before they could shoot the OC chamber dead, though I imagine if players thought they could get away with that, you'd see that type of play a lot. Seems counterintuitive and more of a nuisance than anything else. I fail to see why the best deterent the aliens have against marines is the modern day equivalent of a paint-ball turret which stings like hell if you're hit and may or may not be worth your time trying to destroy depending on whether or not you think you can run past it. Maybe if I cleverly placed a paint-ball turret behind a box, I could get a couple paint-ball shots to the ass of some unsuspecting marine, and though that marine wasn't watching his ass and would have died had it been an alien laying in wait, he continues onwards with nothing more than a couple of spikes taken and some minor health loss (commander wouldn't even heal that type of damage for it'd be a waste of resources). Some deterent that is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, remember that one of the new weapons is probably going to be flamethrower. That means a quick sweep run would wipe out any sort of melee based OC without even slowing the group down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should be no slowdown if an entire tank of gasoline is wasted around every corner with a flamethrower, yep. Sounds about right.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Completely disabling a marine for three secs? NO.
Ever played TF2 with more than one sandman against you? Well, that ###### sucks. Having "stuns" simply isn't fun. Playing games is done for the fun of it, not for being frustrated over annoying gameplay mechanics. Stuns chops up gameplay AND makes you lose control over your character.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't want to get skewered, you'd pay more attention. Simple as that. I think you guys don't like to actually have a reason not to rambo into the alien base. That's the issue.
And you guys can't claim this offense chamber is awful and useless and then turn around and explain why it's overpowered. Kind of throws a kink in your arguments.
When the stun in unavoidable yes it does seem bad. I would prefer the stun to only affect movement and allow firing. Stun on a static defence is completely avoidable though, and would only be lamented by the unwary where as the sandman is on the fastest player class in the game.
I really don't think this point of view holds weight...
Dying makes you lose control of the character, and the opposition has many avenues to make that happen against your will... such as bitegun and healspray and normal OC.
A melee style chamber (As much as I don't think this is the best solution to said problem) is just another avenue for one player to frustrate the progress of another that may or may not include killing you. Competition or not, if it's effective, it's valid.
but in the earlier game it comes handy from time to time depending on if the aliens got lots of res node or not
i mean i have seen many effective ways use of OC
in NS1 there are numerous times that i cannot get pass the OC with the helps of skulks and gorges ( not just me alone but a group of marines as well, and am not talking about a single OC or something like that)
but of coz the same goes for the aliens it is hard to get pass turrents when there are marines around
i think ur ideal OC is more like an ambush stuffs but i like it but i think it just overwhelming with the disabling whoever it hits for 3 seconds
but then it comes to the cost of the structure, how fast it detects and shoots, dodge able?, how many can it places in one game or in one place, etc.
(am not saying that it is a totally bad idea but i think paralyzed for that long is kinda unfair just becoz the new OC is hidden in a very seclusive place)
i think ur main concern lies in the late-game playing stuffs that OC occasionally becomes useless against heavy-armor even when the marines have low res-node
or a marines push with 1 grenade launcher or 2 since OC cannot be upgraded for more health or more powerful unlike turret-factory here. cause, in the early game-play a single OC is just too annoying to kill for a lone marine, well that is what i believe.
i think the mid game NS1 OC is pretty balanced out
i respect the idea of the new OC stuffs but instead of have one type of OC there could be more to build
~
In cases of balance it shouldn't be the real web from NS1 so it should only prevent moving for a short time and let Jetpackers drop back to the ground.
NS1 The problem with the intelligent chamber placement is that it takes lots of time to get wherever you want to place that chambers as a gorge (maybe some way to "climb" as gorge [maybe not in the early game but as upgrade for mid / end game]) and most of the time skulks are not willing to help you to get to that position. On the other hand the intelligent OC chamber placement solves most of the problems, but the biggest problem so far is that it can be shot down in seconds by some Shotgun equipped (thats why you have to favor elevated, not accessible positions for your chambers) marines and thats more like melee combat in which the chamber shouldn't loose that easily. The OC does it's job quite well in NS1 if placed correctly, it slows down marines and makes sure that there is some sort of support for critical strategic positions on the map (you know those rooms if you loose them as alien you basically loose the game)
...
I see it like this:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1--> Ambush benefit (ability to kill a target taken by surprise on scale from 1 to 10)
Early game Middle game Late game
Old OC 5 4 3
New OC 9 9 8
Deter benefit (ability to prevent entry to certain areas of the map on scale from 1 to 10)
Early game Middle game Late game
Old OC 10 7 4
New OC 8 7 6
Decay effect (chance to get destroyed after encounter with a random marine player on a scale from 1 to 10)
Early game Middle game Late game
Old OC 1 2 5
New OC 5 5 6<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
In this sense, it's decent early game and it still stands effective in the late game, unlike ocs which in most cases if they stand alone, they stand little chance against even a single marine (most likely having shotguns and hmgs or heavy armor / jet packs).
What about having the current OC in two parts.
First for (example) 5 res, you lay a spike trap, hidden below infestation or hidden in dark corners
Then, for an extra 7 res, you grow the second layer, which is the typical OC
Or, for the normal 10 res, you build the OC without the spike trap
Then the gorge has the ability to lay some "deterents" for cheap, like the marine mine
And, a gorge can grow an OC out of this unit later for less res (Early game/late game balance)
AND... If the gorge goes build a 2 layer OC (Spikes and darts together), then the OC can be destroyed, but the spikes are still waiting to get ya
Are we saying the spikes are 1 shot? What about making them reset every 30 seconds? If they kill a scout (IE, the scout dies before he gets a chance to kill the trap)... they can reset for another scout 30 seconds later. But they still become vulnerable to groups of people after the first surprise. Can't be grenade/flamer killed, has to be more focussed attack (like knife or welder). If you know the trap is there, shooting it will trigger it off, making it harmless for 30 seconds. If you want to disarm it entirely, you have to weld or knife it while it's disabled (like the marine mines, it's not simple to disarm, but can be harmless if the situation is right). Also needs Infestation to be planted.
Normal 10 res OC doesn't have the residue spike trap when killed. Still... even late game HA trains when encountering an OC farm will be cautious. Sure they've just wiped out a hallway full of OC's... but they don't know if it's safe to pass yet.... they have to make sure this wasn't a "combo-OC" farm, and the hallway is now full of spikes that have to be triggered off. Again, the smart gorge will play on that doubt... maybe planting normal OC's in a mass farm, and then plant spikes further down the hallway, giving the HA's a false sense of security and a little GOTCHA surprise.
The way I see games playing out now is half the players hoard res for evolving, the other half RUSH for res points and plant res. Then the nest thing they plant is an upgrade chamber. If the above option of laying spikes (Think traffic spikes in military bases) was available, I can see players gorging just to lay 3 sets of deterents, then skulking again. That res investment early game not only gives protection against shutgun rushes and scouts, but it gives a res saving to gorges who want to plant OC's in that area later. These OC's built on spike traps are now more effective than raw OC's, and have 2 tiers of attack. Makes for early game value as well as late game value, but isn't invulnerable.
Out of curiousity... are marine turrets dodgeable? I get the impression they're not... If they fire.... you're hit
This game has a kind of synergy to it. I'd like to see that carry over and expand in the design of the sequel.