New Bhop Thread
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Back by popular demand.
<b>This thread does not exist to state problems with bhop. If you want to include a me-too "why I hate bhop" set of reasons, that's fine, but post something productive - ways to improve movement skill, etc. Do not simply bash bhop or argue against some moron who's rambling on about how their gameplay proclivities should be imposed on everyone for no good reason, and to the detriment of the game.</b> Thanks.
Since everyone seems so interested in the topic, to the point where I can't get you out of derailing The Competitive Appeal, maybe this will work.
Here's an example of why bhop is good:
Last night I was in <GUD> server and was circle jumping down the ladder area from Acidic to Chem. A guy was there, I landed maintaining a solid portion of airspeed, but I would have been very easy to predict had I merely bunnyhopped at him at full speed. <b>I intentionally arc'd too far out and back in which disrupted his aim enough for me to kill him at ~30hp.</b> This is an example of the subtlety possible with the current system, and the magnitude of gameplay that gets removed with bunnyhop.
Here's a common argument:
"Bhop is not intuitive, so we should replace it with something better."
I can agree with this argument, now find me something better so I can agree with a practical way of going about it.
As a last note; remember that blink hop isn't ever complained about, nor is bhop in Quake - the problem lies in the HORRIBLY unintuitive way you have to rebind mouse2 to a jump script or mwheel to +jump - which is very fixable through queued jumping.
<b><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Given that change, what do you see as the best way to go about skill-based movement?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
<b>This thread does not exist to state problems with bhop. If you want to include a me-too "why I hate bhop" set of reasons, that's fine, but post something productive - ways to improve movement skill, etc. Do not simply bash bhop or argue against some moron who's rambling on about how their gameplay proclivities should be imposed on everyone for no good reason, and to the detriment of the game.</b> Thanks.
Since everyone seems so interested in the topic, to the point where I can't get you out of derailing The Competitive Appeal, maybe this will work.
Here's an example of why bhop is good:
Last night I was in <GUD> server and was circle jumping down the ladder area from Acidic to Chem. A guy was there, I landed maintaining a solid portion of airspeed, but I would have been very easy to predict had I merely bunnyhopped at him at full speed. <b>I intentionally arc'd too far out and back in which disrupted his aim enough for me to kill him at ~30hp.</b> This is an example of the subtlety possible with the current system, and the magnitude of gameplay that gets removed with bunnyhop.
Here's a common argument:
"Bhop is not intuitive, so we should replace it with something better."
I can agree with this argument, now find me something better so I can agree with a practical way of going about it.
As a last note; remember that blink hop isn't ever complained about, nor is bhop in Quake - the problem lies in the HORRIBLY unintuitive way you have to rebind mouse2 to a jump script or mwheel to +jump - which is very fixable through queued jumping.
<b><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Given that change, what do you see as the best way to go about skill-based movement?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I'm probably reciting the old mantra, but the two reasons I think bhop is so good once you get the hang of it:
1.) The control. Very few movement systems allow you to land precise jumps and do as fluent dodges as the NS system. For example a sprint/dive move without air control is most likely going to land on a preset distance to one direction. On bhop you can control the distance and direction by your speed and air curving. This allows you to do nice rail/obstacle moves the rest of the systems can only dream of.
2.) The universality. Whatever movement you're up to, bhop allows you to chain it. Blink, leap, air curves, knockback and wallhop can all be used in a flawless combinations, since bhop allows you to keep the movement going between them. It's always mildly amusing to hear a skulk coming behind the corner only to see it switching its forward bhop fluently into a wallhop. The wallhop effectively dodges most of your bullets and allows the skulk to bounce off the wall in an arc and land on you. I haven't seen any other system doing anything similar so far. Moments like that make me appreciate the movement system even if I can't pull off anything close to the described.
I'd say replacing the HL 1 movement system is going to be the biggest of all the gameplay related challenges for UWE.
(i already posted this comment on the The Competitive Appeal thread but its relevant )
I wouldn't say that. We know there is going to be a sprint for marines, but we don't know anything about air control or bhop wrt NS2 other than they want to replace it if they can.
Marines already can't bunny hop so I doubt that would change to suddenly allow them to bhop.
As for kharaa, I really don't care either way. The situation <b>radix</b> described would be just as possible with a gradient sprint button(although I'm not arguing for that). All you really did was read his movements and use your excess speed to arc more than he expected. Air control requires skill and depth. Bhop is just a skill move that could be accomplished with button and you would retain the depth(assuming the air control is still there). Again I'm not arguing for this because NS2 needs skill moves also, and bhop (with possibly an auto-jump as described above) would be an elegant combination of skill-move and depth providing feature.
Marines already can't bunny hop so I doubt that would change to suddenly allow them to bhop.
As for kharaa, I really don't care either way. The situation <b>radix</b> described would be just as possible with a gradient sprint button(although I'm not arguing for that). All you really did was read his movements and use your excess speed to arc more than he expected. Air control requires skill and depth. Bhop is just a skill move that could be accomplished with button and you would retain the depth(assuming the air control is still there). Again I'm not arguing for this because NS2 needs skill moves also, and bhop (with possibly an auto-jump as described above) would be an elegant combination of skill-move and depth providing feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=104567&view=findpost&p=1686007" target="_blank">Flayra's comment. </a>
I guess you can interpret than in many ways though.
The separation between bhop and air control is often quite tricky too. The air control makes the present bhop system possible and the bhop allows the air control system to be used in very interesting ways.
Not entirely true.
You can bhop, as long as you gain elevation with every consecutive jump.
You can bhop, as long as you gain elevation with every consecutive jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah there are exceptions. I'm pretty sure you can bhop if you get catalyst too. For most scenarios rines can't bhop though.
People generally seem to take one of these stances:
1) People who know how to do it well consider it an amazingly deep and flexible system that really rewards them for the effort they put into acquiring their superior skill level.
2) People who do not know how to do it feel helpless against those who do know how, and feel discouraged from playing when the bar appears to have been raised so far beyond their sights.
The arguments generally seem to boil down to:
3) Bhopping in NS1 has a negative impact on retaining newer players, but has a positive impact on retaining older players.
My opinion on this:
There is a lesson in game design to be learned from bunny hopping. Hidden somewhere within that mechanic is something that adds an immense amount of replayability to a game. Unfortunately, something else about that mechanic also adds a barrier to entry for potential new players. I think that on some level or another we have all realised this. I think we all also know that on some level or another, bhop itself is too flawed to keep as it is. It seems to me that in order for the debate to continue moving forward, we need to stop talking about bhop, and start talking about new mechanics that could make use of the lessons we have learned here.
I'd like to see a minileap version (certain range and adrenaline cost for proper balance) for skulks available straight at start as counterpart to the marine sprint, not declared as weapon at all, but as a movement skill using the +movement button/bind, so players have to use it immediatly (maybe more hives make it stronger).
That in addition to air control and walljump should allow some cool and more import marine-distracting movement.
But I can also see bunnyhopping still working with a queued jump system and with the minileap making the acceleration much more easier for new players.
I mean how hard is it to grasp, when you explain minileap to tell new players that they can keep their speed from the minileap by pressing jump before landing.
I see more issues there explaining aircontrol, which you won't even need for a simple zigzag-bhop, since you jump/minileap in the direction you are looking.
And for those thinking that bunnyhop is a mood-killer, because it looks unnatural, simply add the minileap animation to the following bhop-jumps after the inital minileap to accelerate.
1) Queued jumping
2) Holding down forward would not impact your ability to do it. People should not be punished for thinking that pressing forward helps you move forward.
3) Framerate would not be be significant ( though obviously exceptionally low framerates would mess it all up )
4) alternative strafing while hoping foward would give you a small speed boost
5) Throw in matching mouse movements for another small speed boost
6) The degree to which you have to turn and strafe would be very forgiving.
7) perfecting it would give you an even larger speed boost
So anyone jumping forward moving their mouse left to right in sync with strafe changes would increase their speed along their intended direction of travel.
The result would be that those of us who can bhop can continue to do so and those who can't can wave their mouse and wiggle their strafe keys and still get some kind of improvement that will develop over continued use. Someone can look at a bhoping skulk and think.. "OK so I need to swerve from side to side as I run forwards to get that speed boost" and start to imitate and from there they will develop the right timing. I think once someone explains the technical facets of NS1 bhop the skill is easy to learn so we simply have to eliminate those obscurities and it will be greatly improved.
This is a basic starting point. There are even bigger improvements achieved by adding some really basic movement techniques, be that some kind of in air use of jump to produce a sort of chained double jump effect that produces similar speed boosts but are much much easier to perform. The closer to the apex you press the jump the more of a boost you get and the longer your chain them for the more you get, so people can with good timing will be able to max out the speed boost but those with average twitch should still be able to get something out of it.
So how much of a boost is required for
a) Average ability
b) Expert ability.
I would say about 25% for a) and about 30% for b). but such a decision cannot be made until the basic feel of melee combat is experienced.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People generally seem to take one of these stances:
1) People who know how to do it well consider it an amazingly deep and flexible system that really rewards them for the effort they put into acquiring their superior skill level.
2) People who do not know how to do it feel helpless against those who do know how, and feel discouraged from playing when the bar appears to have been raised so far beyond their sights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is unfounded, I know for one I don't follow that rule and there are plenty of other people who know how to bunnyhop (its not exactly difficult, variations have been around since the Q3 & Goldsrc engines were made).
I am against it because I remember how bunnyhopping took hold of TFC and made competitive play based solely around grenade spam and movement speed.... the art of dueling, playing strong classes in offense over fast weak classes, and combining class strengths and brute force was lost.
It was somewhat thrilling to bounce around an enemy team solo as a scout and be a 1-man-hero, but it ruined the very nature of the game (TEAM fortress).
Granted, there's alot more subtlety to NS than just running past a whole defensive team and grabbing a flag, but the fact that a skulk is as fast and agile as a scout, yet as strong as a soldier (given melee distance) is sickening...
it should NOT be easy to close the distance to a marine, because as soon as you have, its game over.
there should be decisions made by the marine "do i want to move forward and lose my advantage, or shall I retreat and find another route" ... that is strategy. He should not be faced with the options "run and die, or stand and die" which bunnyhopping effectively degrades it into.
then I can always rely on what these "so called" pros love to hear:
Bunnyhopping is a FLAW in the engine NS was built on.
Bunnyhopping was never intended as a game mechanic.
Bunnyhopping goes against the movement protocols of the game.
Just drop the drivel, we've all had about enough of this bhop talk.
when its all said and done:
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->MISTAKES SHOULD BE CORRECTED, NOT REPEATED<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Suddenly you'd have a lot of people jumping around and potentially also learning the actual bhop as they experiment with the dash jumping.
It was somewhat thrilling to bounce around an enemy team solo as a scout and be a 1-man-hero, but it ruined the very nature of the game (TEAM fortress).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bhopping actually works well with a team of skulks, a well timed rush with some skulks tanking and other skulks biting is hard to co-ordinate, but pays off - in this sense it doesn't destroy tactical play or teamwork at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1700833:date=Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Granted, there's alot more subtlety to NS than just running past a whole defensive team and grabbing a flag, but the fact that a skulk is as fast and agile as a scout, yet as strong as a soldier (given melee distance) is sickening...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't Team Fortress, you can't compare the balance of classes over two different games, it just doesn't work.
<!--quoteo(post=1700833:date=Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it should NOT be easy to close the distance to a marine, because as soon as you have, its game over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping straight at a marine, by yourself, is seriously an easy way to get you killed.. if the marine can remotely aim that is.
<!--quoteo(post=1700833:date=Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there should be decisions made by the marine "do i want to move forward and lose my advantage, or shall I retreat and find another route" ... that is strategy. He should not be faced with the options "run and die, or stand and die" which bunnyhopping effectively degrades it into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ambushing still happens a lot, so I don't quite get your point. There is a lot of strategy involved, for example: if the marine is with someone (which I assume you would want because you appear to love teamwork) and they know there is a skulk nearby, if that skulk is to eager then he can be easily baited by one marine, and easily killed, then the marines can continue down their desired path. This, again, requires teamwork and strategy, and this is only one example.
<!--quoteo(post=1700833:date=Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then I can always rely on what these "so called" pros love to hear:
Bunnyhopping is a FLAW in the engine NS was built on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what if it was orginally a flaw? Developers could have easily taken it out, but they haven't because it would completely mess the balance - doesn't that tell you anything?
<!--quoteo(post=1700833:date=Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping was never intended as a game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, why does this matter, it evolved it to a very important one. just like how bubblewrap was never intended to protect things.
<!--quoteo(post=1700833:date=Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping goes against the movement protocols of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you mean it doesn't 'look right' then go back to Crysis, game play should always come before graphics, and it isn't like you invented the Kaharra and know how they should move, so to say you do is pretty arrogant.
<!--quoteo(post=1700833:date=Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 19 2009, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just drop the drivel, we've all had about enough of this bhop talk.
when its all said and done:
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->MISTAKES SHOULD BE CORRECTED, NOT REPEATED<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BHop was definitely not a mistake.
-----
I think puzls suggestions could work quite well, and would fit in with the whole 'easy to learn, hard to master' thing - but it seriously needs to be hard to master.
Good input.
wait, he can't compare NS to TFC but you can compare it to bubblewrap?
odd.
and a protocol is a code of conduct if you will, an establishment of proper methods for executing a task.
Forgive me if I'm incorrect: it's been a long time since I gave up HL1 Mods, but - if I remember correctly - all the big mods for HL1 either disabled or very greatly limited the erroneous behaviour of bunnyhopping and airspeed in the engine.
CS - Punishes use of jump
TFC - Left Airspeed control alone, greatly minimised bunnyhop efficiency to something like 170% movement speed (before was well over 400%)
DOD - Removed exploiting with stamina
NS - Marines were stopped from bunnyhopping, aliens limited
now, there are other biggish mods too ,but I cannot remember them all and certainly their take on the engine.
But importantly; the 4 most popular MODS all took the silly bunnyhop engine mistake and found ways of bending or removing it to suit the game, not one kept it fully intact. Why? well... many reasons, but the only one that matters is the blanketing fact that it was an overlooked physics error in the engine which was never supposed to exist.
why on earth would a developer want to balance a game around a mistake of the engine creator, let alone copy the mistake to their new engine.
it just doesn't make sense.
And if you give me this elitist crap, all it says to me is "If I weren't able to bunnyhop I'd be just as good at the game as Joe Noob."
It's almost impossible to tell how fast you're going until you're good at it and can actually achieve much faster speeds and the difference is significant. It's like it might be some sort of optical illusion if you didn't know better. A single turn at a suboptimal rotation speed produces only very subtle speed changes. And since you change your direction, you can't even time your speed increase with some reference map distance. I know I had a horrible time learning to bhop until I found out how to display my speed and experiment while watching the numbers.
So maybe some hud display to report your speed would help with whatever advanced movement is implemented.
Why was that a cheat variable though?
Sorry dude, this server enforces cl_ignorance 0, you can't play here.
Uhh yes,
Xmenu servers with cybernetics. When you breached a certain basespeed-threshold you could also bhop. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
I am really curious how movement will be implemented for hive1 skulks. If you jsut allow them to accelerate at the press of a button everything will depend on the opposing rines aim. Being able to bhop was always about taking getting control back. You never felt that dependened from the rines skill level, cause you had a good way of throwing his aim off.
And bhopping backwards into a bunch of rines was always good fun.
Sounds a lot like aiming.
And Revenge, the reason I made this thread was to get baddies out of derailing my ###### movement thread. If you want to comment on ways to make movement better, that thread is <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105649" target="_blank">here</a>.
PS: I like Puzl's idea, although I don't agree with making the side movements "extremely forgiving" - they are already forgiving enough. There is no reason to make them easier, because once you add queued jumping, the problems of difficulty resolve themselves with practice.
Hud feedback on your speed would be more easily readable than showspeed, maybe with colors and bars or something. That would reduce the bhop barrier to entry without destroying the feature. With queued jump, I don't see how anyone could not be able to figure out how to improve with practice. All the info you need is right there on your screen, and you would notice as you reach new top speeds because the bar would turn more red at the tip, or something.
This could be applied to help with bhop, airspeed in general, or whatever other system that Flayra has alluded to.
You can get better with aim because green goo sprites tell you when you are shooting the aliens. For speed-based movement skill, you need something to tell you when you're actually going faster.
Excepting pointing at something to shoot it is intuitive. I think <b>revenge</b>'s description is pretty accurate.
As an alternative to Bunny Hopping and an implementation of advance movement, how about giving giving momentum to movement? For example, if you move forward for a good period of time and let go, your character will keep moving for a very small amount of time. This added momentum can be canceled by pressing the reverse button (but holding it too long will cause you to move in the opposite direction). The end result is that players will have a very smooth movement and people can manage their actions to move more precisely (e.g. jumping rail to rail).
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry</a>
I think the best solution so far is to remove the unintuitive parts of the bhop mechanic, specifically having to rebind jump (or script) and being punished for using natural keyboard movements to aid bhop movement. Maybe even nerfing the top end speeds you can get from bhop. I guess play testing would be the only way to tell if it was successful. I would hate new players of NS2 learning the game and be put off by see more advanced players bouncing around at seemingly unattainable high speeds, and have no idea how to replicate it.
B) People who visit (troll) these forums already have formed opinions (biases) and no minds will be changed. There were/are plenty of opportunities for people to learn how to bhop and learn how it effects/affects gameplay and how it adds depth. And also that depth is what makes NS the great game it is.
C) Bhop doesn't need to be in NS2 to make it a great game, but I can be sure it would make it a better game (I mean what else would we do during warmup and between matches?) Not only that but large skill caps are what makes a game good. There should be clear differences between casual, semi-serious, serious, and professional, see starcraft or ns1 or cs or ssbm for examples. Those games all have unattainable skill caps with easy ways to relatively determine how skilled a player is (respectively: apm, bhop/kd, kd, l-cancel/wavedash.) It's important that being apt at one of those things doesn't even guarantee the player is actually apt at the game only that players that are good at the game almost universally do those things.
D) Quakeworld style bhop would remove the necessity of scripts; but that's a moot point, hitting +jump is about 1% of the actual time spent bunnyhopping. It's also relatively easy to grasp.
E) Puzl, requiring/allowing +forward in a bhop would actually make it more difficult as you'd have to use two fingers on your left hand as opposed to one. Allowing players to do so would just complicate bunnyhopping by allowing them to form habits that are counter-productive.
F) There is a large gap between these forums and the actual player base. If I ask any player in-game what they feel about bunnyhopping not one of them responds with "BUNNYHOPPING IS A CHEAT, A GLITCH, AND WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE IN THE GAME." They typically reply with "I never learned how because it's hard."
And my point is, that most people understand that they are playing a game that has a certain set of rules and those are the rules by which to play the game. Players <b>don't</b> follow the intended rules, they follow the <b>actual</b> rules. Applying this to back to bhop means that how it arrived in the NS game mechanics doesn't matter, what matters is that it's there and that it does have a significant impact on gameplay.
What matters in the case of this thread is if bunnyhopping is key to gameplay, very beneficial or replacable with something else easily learned but not easily mastered. The last part of that being the most important. Games with low skill caps and few differences between masters and novices have little replayability and even less players.
It needed to be said.
I really don't think it should be nerfed at all, the fact that there is so many different degrees of speed is what makes it great, and taking that away is pointless.
Also this whole thing about new players being scared away from the game from a bhopping skulk is just ridiculous. It is still easy to kill, and the fact that someone <b>IS</b> doing it means it is most defiantly <b>NOT</b> unattainable. They are a lot more likely to want to do it themselves once they see it, rather than quit like a baby screaming mommy.