Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited January 2009
Good idea and some great posts Radix, especially #18. A few points:
Re: "All this talk of penalizing unskilled/new/bad players is retarded. Why do the skilled players need to have a means to hand them a win when they already have what they need?"
It's not penalizing them - it is silencing them to prevent background noise, allowing skilled players to actually teach if only everybody else will be willing to learn. How the intensity of the spray is determined is slightly debatable, but should be strongly linked to skill.
The idea is not the same as the little icons above players' heads that people do not pay enough attention to - it involves a spray that is visible to all team-mates no matter where they are. It emphasizes the importance of a particular location and, if the spray is made descriptive (this is where the topic is unfolding; i.e. patrol here, ambush from here, defend here, attack here), then it would become invaluable.
<!--quoteo(post=1698523:date=Jan 26 2009, 11:59 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Jan 26 2009, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good idea and some great posts Radix, especially #18. A few points:
Re: "All this talk of penalizing unskilled/new/bad players is retarded. Why do the skilled players need to have a means to hand them a win when they already have what they need?"
It's not penalizing them - it is silencing them to prevent background noise, allowing skilled players to actually teach if only everybody else will be willing to learn. How the intensity of the spray is determined is slightly debatable, but should be strongly linked to skill.
The idea is not the same as the little icons above players' heads that people do not pay enough attention to - it involves a spray that is visible to all team-mates no matter where they are. It emphasizes the importance of a particular location and, if the spray is made descriptive (this is where the topic is unfolding; i.e. patrol here, ambush from here, defend here, attack here), then it would become invaluable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you are saying is that players who are better are more important?
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
<!--quoteo(post=1698562:date=Jan 26 2009, 05:40 PM:name=GrandMoffVixen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GrandMoffVixen @ Jan 26 2009, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what you are saying is that players who are better are more important?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to point out the obvous but players who are better are more important. You wouldn't want the first time player blowing 50 res on a fade when he can hive right?
When I read the topic title, my first thought was "what a load of pretentious superfluous bull######". The worst kind of bull######. I'm not trying to be belittling or insulting but: "Developers Facilitating Teaching as an Antidote to a Deep Game's Lack of Intuition"? Really now...
Edit: Have a good read of these: <a href="http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/14_09_2007_Babblefish__Sony_s_Sixaxis_Emmy/" target="_blank">http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/14_0...s_Sixaxis_Emmy/</a> <a href="http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/23_07_2008_Babblefishing/" target="_blank">http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/23_0..._Babblefishing/</a>
"When I read the topic title, my first thought was "what a load of pretentious superfluous bull######". The worst kind of bull######. I'm not trying to be belittling or insulting but: "Developers Facilitating Teaching as an Antidote to a Deep Game's Lack of Intuition"? Really now...
Edit: Have a good read of these: <a href="http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/14_0...s_Sixaxis_Emmy/" target="_blank">http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/14_0...s_Sixaxis_Emmy/</a> <a href="http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/23_0..._Babblefishing/"" target="_blank">http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/23_0...efishing/"</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1698562:date=Jan 26 2009, 05:40 PM:name=GrandMoffVixen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GrandMoffVixen @ Jan 26 2009, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what you are saying is that players who are better are more important?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not more important, more pivotal.
If you want a <strike>game</strike> tea party where skill does not allow you to improve your team's status more effectively than a new player, I hear the major brands have some fine offerings.
Excellent idea that should be implemented. Anything that brings in teamwork based game play to a 'team' oriented game should be atleast tried and/or put to use. If it becomes bothersome ... Patch it out later.
There is no real counter arguement to this other than skilled skulks making ambush points in lame off battlefield spots making new players run away from the battlefield (which can be a good thing hahaha)
Other than that ... Team work HUD display icons in a 'team' game? Come on...
<!--quoteo(post=1698567:date=Jan 26 2009, 05:44 PM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BadMouth @ Jan 26 2009, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate to point out the obvous but players who are better are more important. You wouldn't want the first time player blowing 50 res on a fade when he can hive right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want your team to know what to do then teach them. You wouldn't want a more skilled player dropping hive and not telling the new player how to do so right? Oh, and once the basics have been taught, experience is the best teacher after that. So the better players are not more important. Tell me, do you always make a game out to be more than a game? At some point when players do things you don't like, either you will get mad and yell at them or you will just let it go.
<!--quoteo(post=1698860:date=Jan 29 2009, 09:09 AM:name=GrandMoffVixen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GrandMoffVixen @ Jan 29 2009, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want your team to know what to do then teach them. You wouldn't want a more skilled player dropping hive and not telling the new player how to do so right? Oh, and once the basics have been taught, experience is the best teacher after that. So the better players are not more important. Tell me, do you always make a game out to be more than a game? At some point when players do things you don't like, either you will get mad and yell at them or you will just let it go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are two parts to learning Vixen. The better player has to be willing to teach (I know a vast majority of people who would do this given a convenient opportunity, if not merely out of frustration) and the bad player has to be willing to listen and adapt.
Virtually everyone you will encounter in NS these days plays in a habitual unconscious stupor - this prevents them from learning until they wake up and realize that they will be modifying their behavior. The other day we were on <GUD> server and this guy dropped an MC in a very vulnerable location after I had specifically told him to drop it back.
After it happened I asked him if he had a microphone. For some reason some people wake up when you call them by name, and after I did that I showed him exactly where the best placement spots would have been. He was one of the few cases who actually did seem to become aware when I spoke to him, where the vast majority will simply continue even after being called by name to weld.
My point is that the problem is not on the teaching end. I know why NSDojo became an archive, and I presume it's the same reason why NSLearn tapered off. There is not a lack of community willing to teach, there is a lack of playerbase willing to go to what equates to a class on how to play a game. If you incorporate that class into the game itself, the teaching becomes nearly unavoidable, which may be slightly annoying for people who just want to rambo without thinking - but it's good for them, and for the game as a whole.
<!--quoteo(post=1698868:date=Jan 29 2009, 04:11 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jan 29 2009, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know why NSDojo became an archive, and I presume it's the same reason why NSLearn tapered off. There is not a lack of community willing to teach, there is a lack of playerbase willing to go to what equates to a class on how to play a game. If you incorporate that class into the game itself, the teaching becomes nearly unavoidable, which may be slightly annoying for people who just want to rambo without thinking - but it's good for them, and for the game as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aw... I liked NSDojo. Had to miss the two epic teaching seminars, though, so learned off the recordings.
Anyways, Radix is right. Sometimes people just don't take the time outside of the game to learn. This is OK for some games, but for an intricate and forcibly team-based game like NS this can lower the enjoyment of everyone. So, a game that is instructive while fun is the best kind.
See the kind of reinforcement and teaching that L4D does. Granted, there's less complexity in some regards, but Valve goes out of their way to give hints and show players the way from pure noob oh look I have a gun to covering each other as the mobs come for them.
The game is not fun without teamwork. You cannot replace teamwork with UI. The commander should be the enforcer of teamwork. Kills do not equal teamwork. Widening fanbase without sacrificing depth is extremely difficult, if not impossible.
Instead of having anything decided by kills (<i>ever</i>), have it decided by the com. The name at the top of the list is not necessarily going to be the most strategic mind, or even going to appreciate the responsibility. Although I am all for helpful indicators like weld icons, this proposal is clunky at best. Why not use a general spray? Just a small spray any player can use to point out a specific location on the map. Used in tandem with a mic/keyboard this can communicate anything given that players are willing to listen. If you want people to be able to play the game, make it simple. Waypoints and a simple spray are all you need.
I think the lot of you are trying to think of ways to treat the symptoms and not the underlying problem, which is a general lack of teamwork and coordination. Really the only way to get people to listen is to reward them for doing right. If they don't, then they will be stuck with an LMG the whole match and listen to orders the next time.
Why not implement a commander menu in which he can stop specific marines from receiving weapons on the basis that it is a waste of res, and also mute their mic/text on the basis that they are hindering teamwork? Of course you will get a few crazy coms, but the game will undoubtedly be better for it. This kind of thing just can't be automated. Make it quick and easy and the level of strategy and teamwork in the game will rise exponentially.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is not fun without teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess NS isn't fun then, considering the state of pub servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot replace teamwork with UI.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't suggest replacing teamwork - I suggested a way of teaching so losers don't waste their time building communities to teach thankless players how to play an obscure half-life mod over the internet.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The commander should be the enforcer of teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you propose the commander enforce teamwork?
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kills do not equal teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can get kills without teamwork (which is a gigantic advantage) it doesn't matter how strategically minded you are - your team will succeed by following your advice.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Widening fanbase without sacrificing depth is extremely difficult, if not impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you understand the problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm bitter because I keep dying in pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You let the good players do it because they know how to get kills, which necessitates that they are competent (perhaps not exceptional) strategists - which accomplishes the objective of teaching players to work as a team. If your tactics are so wonderful, use them to get kills or become the commander and win the game. I have no problem with the commander placing ambush points either.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys are too dumb to treat the underlying problem. I know! I'll start talking about marines and maybe you'll get lost in my tangled logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I <i>am</i> treating the underlying problem, which you would recognize if you had any concept of how to play NS or the current playerbase. The <b>symptom</b> is a lack of teamwork. The <b>problem</b> is that a Amerikan gamers are ###### dumb as boards and need their hand held at every possible turn.
Which is why skulks still straightline after 5 years of playing.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Positive re-enforcement is gud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Well said.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So let's use negative re-enforcement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
After thinking about the original idea ambush waypoints more. I like the idea as a communication tool for the commander, but also want the "instantaneous teaching" that could occur if it was open to everyone.
I think the best implementation is to have it be like the voice mic is now. Everyone can draw a "path" of equal intensity, but with two caveats: commanders overrides all others, paths are "mute-able" on a player by player basis.
<!--quoteo(post=1699215:date=Feb 2 2009, 11:24 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 2 2009, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why skulks still straightline after 5 years of playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll have you know I've been doing the jitterbug zigzag since my second skulk death ;p
Though I will say I've never successfully implemented true bunnyhopping into my game. I guess I'm an old geezer in that regard
It's actually a compliment when I reply to someone with that long of a post. It means I'm taking them at least partially seriously, but thinking that they could do better with their logic.
But it does get to me when people talk out of their ass without any understanding of the game. Mostly because it gives other people who have less understanding bad ideas about how the game works, and then they get confused and might not play as perfectly as normal on <BAD> clan.
So really by replying like that I'm trying to save NS.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
Well if we're supposed to "deign" ourselves to clear up random misconceptions, might as well go for the big ones. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can get kills without teamwork (which is a gigantic advantage) it doesn't matter how strategically minded you are - your team will succeed by following your advice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you had said "If you're getting kills without teamwork, then you probably are more strategically minded" then I would have agreed with you. However, I've seen plenty of CS converts that can aim, but have terrible "strategic advice". It's kind of a moot point anyway since the individual marine player will have more "comm-like" options in terms of strategic behaviour anyway. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that gamers are ###### dumb as boards and need their hand held at every possible turn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bull######. That's just defining the problem in such a way as to be self defeating. Designing for the casual gamer is not designing for the lowest common denominator which would just feel like patronization to most players. Designing for the casual gamer is making the game fun from the beginning and continue to be fun while learning by making the learning as painless as possible. Stated another way: Softening the learning curve is important and maintaining depth and skill moves is important. We can take steps toward each without destroying the other. Finding the middle ground is hard, but I've seen plenty of great ideas on these boards that find it well. To name a few: automatic triplejump functionality for bhop, various suggestions to add micro to the commander "spells", matchmaking, interactional combat.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1699393:date=Feb 3 2009, 07:17 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 3 2009, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Satire is lost on you locallyunscene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exaggerating something to the absurd is only satire if you do it with the purpose of disproving the original premise, otherwise it's just exaggeration and absurdity.
I would believe you if you hadn't argued for this premise <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=105104&view=findpost&p=1693256" target="_blank">before</a>.
It is my belief that regardless of the amount of "ingame" help a game has, there will always be a large number that simply will not bother learning even the most basic concept of teamwork. Such players will hopefully be Darwinized from NS 2 eventually.
Sure, NS can be played without teamwork as well, but it's proven time and time again that the team that works together the best wins - even if the other team happens to have a lot of people who know how to shoot but don't know how to co-op.
<!--quoteo(post=1699473:date=Feb 4 2009, 08:10 PM:name=Skyrage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Skyrage @ Feb 4 2009, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is my belief that regardless of the amount of "ingame" help a game has, there will always be a large number that simply will not bother learning even the most basic concept of teamwork. Such players will hopefully be Darwinized from NS 2 eventually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While this premise may be true, more in-game help will help those who are more passive. Those who actively try to learn will learn regardless, and those who active try not to learn will not learn regardless. More in-game help will allow the people in the middle to pick up on tips and learn without forcing them to scrounge through forums externally. Bringing a full package in the game helps to round it out and help the more casual, but inquisitive players.
True. And letting players help each other interactively rather than designating a player "educational cat is educational" should help to build community ties.
Honestly I think this type of idea is already something they are considering and will have included in the game. This is so basic and essential an idea that they'd really have to. And should they not, it sounds like modding the game to include it wouldn't be all that hard.. heh, maybe we all need to start reading up on LUA coding.
Comments
Re: "All this talk of penalizing unskilled/new/bad players is retarded. Why do the skilled players need to have a means to hand them a win when they already have what they need?"
It's not penalizing them - it is silencing them to prevent background noise, allowing skilled players to actually teach if only everybody else will be willing to learn. How the intensity of the spray is determined is slightly debatable, but should be strongly linked to skill.
The idea is not the same as the little icons above players' heads that people do not pay enough attention to - it involves a spray that is visible to all team-mates no matter where they are. It emphasizes the importance of a particular location and, if the spray is made descriptive (this is where the topic is unfolding; i.e. patrol here, ambush from here, defend here, attack here), then it would become invaluable.
Re: "All this talk of penalizing unskilled/new/bad players is retarded. Why do the skilled players need to have a means to hand them a win when they already have what they need?"
It's not penalizing them - it is silencing them to prevent background noise, allowing skilled players to actually teach if only everybody else will be willing to learn. How the intensity of the spray is determined is slightly debatable, but should be strongly linked to skill.
The idea is not the same as the little icons above players' heads that people do not pay enough attention to - it involves a spray that is visible to all team-mates no matter where they are. It emphasizes the importance of a particular location and, if the spray is made descriptive (this is where the topic is unfolding; i.e. patrol here, ambush from here, defend here, attack here), then it would become invaluable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you are saying is that players who are better are more important?
I hate to point out the obvous but players who are better are more important. You wouldn't want the first time player blowing 50 res on a fade when he can hive right?
I'm not trying to be belittling or insulting but: "Developers Facilitating Teaching as an Antidote to a Deep Game's Lack of Intuition"? Really now...
Edit: Have a good read of these:
<a href="http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/14_09_2007_Babblefish__Sony_s_Sixaxis_Emmy/" target="_blank">http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/14_0...s_Sixaxis_Emmy/</a>
<a href="http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/23_07_2008_Babblefishing/" target="_blank">http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/23_0..._Babblefishing/</a>
I'm not trying to be belittling or insulting but: "Developers Facilitating Teaching as an Antidote to a Deep Game's Lack of Intuition"? Really now...
Edit: Have a good read of these:
<a href="http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/14_0...s_Sixaxis_Emmy/" target="_blank">http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/14_0...s_Sixaxis_Emmy/</a>
<a href="http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/23_0..._Babblefishing/"" target="_blank">http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/23_0...efishing/"</a>
Build a bridge and get over it
Not more important, more pivotal.
If you want a <strike>game</strike> tea party where skill does not allow you to improve your team's status more effectively than a new player, I hear the major brands have some fine offerings.
Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?
There is no real counter arguement to this other than skilled skulks making ambush points in lame off battlefield spots making new players run away from the battlefield (which can be a good thing hahaha)
Other than that ... Team work HUD display icons in a 'team' game? Come on...
If you want your team to know what to do then teach them. You wouldn't want a more skilled player dropping hive and not telling the new player how to do so right? Oh, and once the basics have been taught, experience is the best teacher after that. So the better players are not more important. Tell me, do you always make a game out to be more than a game? At some point when players do things you don't like, either you will get mad and yell at them or you will just let it go.
There are two parts to learning Vixen. The better player has to be willing to teach (I know a vast majority of people who would do this given a convenient opportunity, if not merely out of frustration) and the bad player has to be willing to listen and adapt.
Virtually everyone you will encounter in NS these days plays in a habitual unconscious stupor - this prevents them from learning until they wake up and realize that they will be modifying their behavior. The other day we were on <GUD> server and this guy dropped an MC in a very vulnerable location after I had specifically told him to drop it back.
After it happened I asked him if he had a microphone. For some reason some people wake up when you call them by name, and after I did that I showed him exactly where the best placement spots would have been. He was one of the few cases who actually did seem to become aware when I spoke to him, where the vast majority will simply continue even after being called by name to weld.
My point is that the problem is not on the teaching end. I know why NSDojo became an archive, and I presume it's the same reason why NSLearn tapered off. There is not a lack of community willing to teach, there is a lack of playerbase willing to go to what equates to a class on how to play a game. If you incorporate that class into the game itself, the teaching becomes nearly unavoidable, which may be slightly annoying for people who just want to rambo without thinking - but it's good for them, and for the game as a whole.
Aw... I liked NSDojo. Had to miss the two epic teaching seminars, though, so learned off the recordings.
Anyways, Radix is right. Sometimes people just don't take the time outside of the game to learn. This is OK for some games, but for an intricate and forcibly team-based game like NS this can lower the enjoyment of everyone. So, a game that is instructive while fun is the best kind.
See the kind of reinforcement and teaching that L4D does. Granted, there's less complexity in some regards, but Valve goes out of their way to give hints and show players the way from pure noob oh look I have a gun to covering each other as the mobs come for them.
The game is not fun without teamwork.
You cannot replace teamwork with UI.
The commander should be the enforcer of teamwork.
Kills do not equal teamwork.
Widening fanbase without sacrificing depth is extremely difficult, if not impossible.
Instead of having anything decided by kills (<i>ever</i>), have it decided by the com. The name at the top of the list is not necessarily going to be the most strategic mind, or even going to appreciate the responsibility. Although I am all for helpful indicators like weld icons, this proposal is clunky at best. Why not use a general spray? Just a small spray any player can use to point out a specific location on the map. Used in tandem with a mic/keyboard this can communicate anything given that players are willing to listen. If you want people to be able to play the game, make it simple. Waypoints and a simple spray are all you need.
I think the lot of you are trying to think of ways to treat the symptoms and not the underlying problem, which is a general lack of teamwork and coordination. Really the only way to get people to listen is to reward them for doing right. If they don't, then they will be stuck with an LMG the whole match and listen to orders the next time.
Why not implement a commander menu in which he can stop specific marines from receiving weapons on the basis that it is a waste of res, and also mute their mic/text on the basis that they are hindering teamwork? Of course you will get a few crazy coms, but the game will undoubtedly be better for it. This kind of thing just can't be automated. Make it quick and easy and the level of strategy and teamwork in the game will rise exponentially.
I guess NS isn't fun then, considering the state of pub servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot replace teamwork with UI.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't suggest replacing teamwork - I suggested a way of teaching so losers don't waste their time building communities to teach thankless players how to play an obscure half-life mod over the internet.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The commander should be the enforcer of teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you propose the commander enforce teamwork?
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kills do not equal teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can get kills without teamwork (which is a gigantic advantage) it doesn't matter how strategically minded you are - your team will succeed by following your advice.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Widening fanbase without sacrificing depth is extremely difficult, if not impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you understand the problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm bitter because I keep dying in pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You let the good players do it because they know how to get kills, which necessitates that they are competent (perhaps not exceptional) strategists - which accomplishes the objective of teaching players to work as a team. If your tactics are so wonderful, use them to get kills or become the commander and win the game. I have no problem with the commander placing ambush points either.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys are too dumb to treat the underlying problem. I know! I'll start talking about marines and maybe you'll get lost in my tangled logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I <i>am</i> treating the underlying problem, which you would recognize if you had any concept of how to play NS or the current playerbase. The <b>symptom</b> is a lack of teamwork. The <b>problem</b> is that a Amerikan gamers are ###### dumb as boards and need their hand held at every possible turn.
Which is why skulks still straightline after 5 years of playing.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Positive re-enforcement is gud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Well said.
<!--quoteo(post=1699191:date=Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM:name=Lenard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lenard @ Feb 2 2009, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So let's use negative re-enforcement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye aye Captain.
I think the best implementation is to have it be like the voice mic is now. Everyone can draw a "path" of equal intensity, but with two caveats: commanders overrides all others, paths are "mute-able" on a player by player basis.
I'll have you know I've been doing the jitterbug zigzag since my second skulk death ;p
Though I will say I've never successfully implemented true bunnyhopping into my game. I guess I'm an old geezer in that regard
But it does get to me when people talk out of their ass without any understanding of the game. Mostly because it gives other people who have less understanding bad ideas about how the game works, and then they get confused and might not play as perfectly as normal on <BAD> clan.
So really by replying like that I'm trying to save NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can get kills without teamwork (which is a gigantic advantage) it doesn't matter how strategically minded you are - your team will succeed by following your advice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you had said "If you're getting kills without teamwork, then you probably are more strategically minded" then I would have agreed with you. However, I've seen plenty of CS converts that can aim, but have terrible "strategic advice". It's kind of a moot point anyway since the individual marine player will have more "comm-like" options in terms of strategic behaviour anyway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that gamers are ###### dumb as boards and need their hand held at every possible turn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull######. That's just defining the problem in such a way as to be self defeating. Designing for the casual gamer is not designing for the lowest common denominator which would just feel like patronization to most players. Designing for the casual gamer is making the game fun from the beginning and continue to be fun while learning by making the learning as painless as possible. Stated another way:
Softening the learning curve is important and maintaining depth and skill moves is important. We can take steps toward each without destroying the other. Finding the middle ground is hard, but I've seen plenty of great ideas on these boards that find it well. To name a few: automatic triplejump functionality for bhop, various suggestions to add micro to the commander "spells", matchmaking, interactional combat.
Exaggerating something to the absurd is only satire if you do it with the purpose of disproving the original premise, otherwise it's just exaggeration and absurdity.
I would believe you if you hadn't argued for this premise <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=105104&view=findpost&p=1693256" target="_blank">before</a>.
Sure, NS can be played without teamwork as well, but it's proven time and time again that the team that works together the best wins - even if the other team happens to have a lot of people who know how to shoot but don't know how to co-op.
While this premise may be true, more in-game help will help those who are more passive. Those who actively try to learn will learn regardless, and those who active try not to learn will not learn regardless. More in-game help will allow the people in the middle to pick up on tips and learn without forcing them to scrounge through forums externally. Bringing a full package in the game helps to round it out and help the more casual, but inquisitive players.